BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama That's both true and not entirely relevant. Let's agree that there are good people who've chosen worthy and necessary careers with the military or diplomatic core, and yet we still have administrative sanctions preventing Baha'is from pursuing similar careers.

Say what???!!! YOU YOURSELF just said it's true, so why wouldn't it be relevant??

And you're quite wrong that there are sanctions against someone choosing to serve in the military: it's quite clear that's left up to the conscience of the individual and isn't imposed--either pro or con--by any Baha'i institution!

Having served in the military myself (WITH noncombatant conscientious-objector status, please note) I am in a position to know the facts about this.

Bruce

ahanu

In the brief example from the article, the Mom accepts her son as a homosexual and a Christian, but you, as a Baha'i, can't accept a Baha'i homosexual. I worry that, since you don't have any close relationships with homosexuals, you will never be able to accept a Baha'i homosexual. By accepting a Baha'i homosexual, I mean accepting the person's homosexuality and his or her claim to be a Baha'i.

I have two very close homosexual friends. Both were born that way, so it would be hard for me to tell them homosexuality is a mental illness.

ahanu

Here is an example of what being an ally to the gay community would look like: support gay marriage. That's one example that comes to mind when I think about being an ally to the gay community.

LordOfGoblins

lol...

Zhang

Thanks for the input Ahanu.

The only way they will understand is if they have a gay child themselves, or so it would seem...

LordOfGoblins

if i had a gay child id help him fight against it, but that doesnt mean i dont love him if he wants to pursue that path.
Its a pity you think human beings are just animals who are destined to forever live in the cage of their bodies and passions without any intereferance of the spirit. THis is a religion afterall yet you completely deny the power therof with these sorts of mentalities...

Fadl

Well, I'm sad that you think I wouldn't accept a Baha'i homosexual. Like I've said, I consider it an abnormal condition (biological, psychological, or whatever) and I don't think conditions make people vile or sinful, or worthy of shunning. I personally think that at present, the societal trend toward acceptance is only half right. It right in the sense that the thing to do is to respect all human beings and not let people live in fear for who they are, and I support that. But that people want to conveniently say that something abnormal is normal for expediency and political correctness is hogwash. I think we ought to love them and include them whilst someone gets to the bottom of the matter and finds a legitimate way to remedy it in as much as that is possible. I don't see how mercy and common sense should be in conflict about this. I imagine a gay Baha'i has a heck of a struggle, and I sympathize with them. Probably they are not completely celibate too, some of the time, and, so long as it is quiet, I don't think it is sinful or anything other than a normal human struggle against a condition the same any human with any condition must struggle. It's just life, and sometimes life is hard and unfair, and I guess God likes it that way.

Zhang

If you accept that science, which says that species use homosexuality as a means of caring for the young by introducing effeminate males, and also increasing the fertility of the female, then you will see that it is not an abnormality.

However, if you reject the science for whatever reason, then you will still live in this ignorant mindset that "Duhhh...man + man =/= baby ~.~ must be abnormal!!!". Just like your ancestors who were convinced that the world was flat and all planets orbited the Earth and considered any other notion absurd.

You will also reject the words of the Baha'i messenger...

LordOfGoblins

science is secondary to religion.
Here is proof of this statement. The greatest scientest ever doesnt possess the knowledge of the spiritual worlds of God. Yet the greatest religionist ever (the manifestations of God), possess knowledge of both science/material and spritiual truths.
Material is subservient to religion. The evidence of this is everywhere.
Material wealth is the illusion, spiritual wealth is the true.
Baha'u'llah used knowledge of both science and religion in order to make his value judgements. Science doesnt dictate wisdom, religion comes first then science but science is inside religions realm of knowledge anyway.
The scientific realm is not perfect. FOr example. Scientific mutations can cause all kinds of genetic problems. A scientific mutation can cause disease and abnormalities, it doesnt mean we worship those abnormalities as our God does it?
What if a mutation rears its head that causes men to desire their sisters?
Some unknown gene. Do we worship the dictates of this abnormality now as our God over the wisdom of the manifestation?
Scientific variation causes all kinds of things. I have no doubt of that many of which are problematic. IT doesnt mean those things are good or bad they just are. Not everyone is born intelligent or with nice facial features or is co-ordinated.
Do we take those facts as our God? Or do we try to overcome those handicaps?
But dont think accepting scientific realities means worshipping science as our God.

Timothy248

"If you accept that science, which says that species use homosexuality as a means of caring for the young by introducing effeminate males, and also increasing the fertility of the female, then you will see that it is not an abnormality."

It makes sense that males adapt to fit into situations, however this doesn't condone homosexuality. I am a loving and caring person but this doesn't mean I am gay, these things aren't connected to each other although they often arise simultaneously because our simple minds link qualities of the opposite sex with lust.

Concerning the claims that the world is flat, the bible commonly simplifies spiritually irrelevant concepts to not confuse the people of that time, but homosexuality isn't spiritually irrelevant.

"Well, I'm sad that you think I wouldn't accept a Baha'i homosexual. Like I've said, I consider it an abnormal condition (biological, psychological, or whatever) and I don't think conditions make people vile or sinful, or worthy of shunning. I personally think that at present, the societal trend toward acceptance is only half right. It right in the sense that the thing to do is to respect all human beings and not let people live in fear for who they are, and I support that. But that people want to conveniently say that something abnormal is normal for expediency and political correctness is hogwash. I think we ought to love them and include them whilst someone gets to the bottom of the matter and finds a legitimate way to remedy it in as much as that is possible. I don't see how mercy and common sense should be in conflict about this. I imagine a gay Baha'i has a heck of a struggle, and I sympathize with them. Probably they are not completely celibate too, some of the time, and, so long as it is quiet, I don't think it is sinful or anything other than a normal human struggle against a condition the same any human with any condition must struggle. It's just life, and sometimes life is hard and unfair, and I guess God likes it that way."

This is basically the correct view. Concerning fairness and unfairness, from gods perspective fairness is mercy and unfairness is justice, because we are all one, it's only from our simple disconnected perspective that concepts of fair and unfair are incorrectly formed.

Noexalt

Clearly there is disunity in the Baha'i Faith over the issue of homosexuality.

From my personal experience, it's clear that gays (who choose to reveal themselves) in the Baha'i community are viewed with a little suspicion, after all "SURELY" they are violating the laws of God. Oh yes, and by the way, you know there are in fact GAYS in the Baha'i community, and even some have come from Baha'i families who have been Baha'is for generations, including Persian families.. Yes, it's true...sorry to bust your bubble if you didn't know. And no, it's not "some traumatic event" that makes someone gay, sometimes it just happens.

Of course while this suspicion is going on, meanwhile, a little more compassion and understanding to the wife beater, the addict, the alcoholic, and the guy with his hair growing below his ears, not to mention the new young couple who are clearly two wings of a dove, and couldn't possibly be violating any laws, and even if they are, oh gosh, we would never "breathe the sins of others" or "pry into their personal lives".

The greatest veil is egotism, and the most unforgivable sin is injustice, while prejudices destroy the edifice of humanity, but when we hear about "GAY" in the Baha'i community, we freak the H out!!!

Let's be honest, the scientific community has not come to any consensus on the origin or cause of homosexuality or heterosexuality or any sexuality for that matter. To say it's 100% genetic is premature since not every DNA chain has been identified yet, to say it's 100% psychological has no scientific basis. Regardless of the so-called causes, the case needs to be made on why it needs to be "cured". To say that it's against the Baha'i writings, is not enough. There has to be a reason, otherwise, it is superstition. Sorry, Baha'u'llah's words, not mine.

No amount of logic aka - the argument about procreation - makes a homosexual straight. That's like telling a stutterer to slow down, or telling a left-handed person that using the right is better.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with this subject matter. So, I'm sure nothing I've said here has any credibility at all.

Zhang

Please understand, the scientific community presents data, and scientists determine whch is the most well supported theory. You would be surprised to know that we actually know very little about gravity, but does that mean gravity is not a naturally occurring part of life? Feel free to test that theory.

The science suggests that homosexuality is influenced by genetic factors and is determined in the womb. If the science said completely otherwise I would accept that theory. However that is simply not the case.

Noexalt

I hear what you are saying...it "suggests" that it is "influenced" and thus it is still "theory". So no clear identifications of saying GENE rs12350C = homosexuality.

I actually have had my genes tested for health and ancestry purposes. I get updates on studies and can see how my genes compare. I haven't seen anything yet that even remotely suggests links to homosexuality. It will be interesting when it is all discovered.

Zhang

Did you undergo a gene sequence?

The gene you refer to is only one of many theories, all backed be some degree of research, though we don't know everything.

Timothy248

If you read my posts I've explained the logical reasoning for the sake of people who claim that suppression of homosexuality is superstitious, my intentions being to cleanse this forum of the arguments your raising because they're repetitive and bothersome. Please address the aspects you don't understand and I'll re clarify where necessary.

Noexalt

Seriously. Wow. Pretty haughty of you to think that you can "cleanse this forum" and how you exalt yourself by calling my comments "repetitive and bothersome" while requesting me to address the aspects I don't understand and that you can so kindly clarify where you think is necessary.

I mean, the arrogance, and haughtiness is amazing.

Tell you what bro, when you wake up one day and find yourself to be gay and live with it for 30+ years, you let me know how your logic and reason helps maintain your absolute uncompromising unblemished chastity for that entire time. Let me know how it feels to be unable to have marriage and a family, and feel those subtle forms of discrimination and be labeled as weak, dirty, not firm in the covenant and not a man let alone human. Then sit down, be quiet and let everyone else who has not lived that experience tell you how you should feel, what you should do, what you should say and what you should believe, then when you DO try to say something the subtle forms of discrimination kick in and nothing you say is viewed with any credibility.

Let me know how your logic and reason completely, totally, and clearly explains how suppression of homosexual urges is completely justified and not at all superstitious. When you realize the influence of social and psychological factors that contribute to "suppression" on gay people, and realize the blatant and unapologetic "down-looking orientation" of so many people and where it comes from, then I'll listen to your "logic and reason".

Wow.

Noexalt

I'm not sure if it's considered a gene "sequence". but all of the genes on all of my chromosomes have been identified via 23andme.com and ftdna.com. 23andme shows things like Parkinsons, Alzheimers, A-Fib, Diabetes, and rare diseases that I've never heard of. My highest risk is A-Fib, and susceptible to Lou Gehrig's, and a few others. But no "gay" gene, genes, or any studies. I can see the gene names, what they mean, what the show, etc, etc throughout my entire chromosome structure. It's huge.

Pardon the sales pitch, but I think every Baha'i should have the test. It will also tell you about your ancestry, European, Native American, African, and you can match up with people who are your distant relatives from way back. (It helps to know your family tree though). To me it's absolute verification that we are one human family. We are all related somehow. It shows how your ancestors stem back to Africa and where they went before they landed in your current "racial" identification. Pretty darn cool.

Zhang

Timothy is notoriously infatuated with himself. He is under the impression that his superior logic can explain anything and everything, and that those who do not see his point of view are not as intelligent. I am not surprised that he wants to cleanse our arguments from the forum like some sort of comment Jihad. I am positive that he has not taken more than entry level Biology (if even that), and is therefore only qualified to comment on the latest specials available on the dollar menu at your local McDonald's. Nothing more.

You want logic Timothy? Here's some logic for you. People will ignore all the facts and data if it conflicts with their own point of view. The epitome of ignorance. Want to know the difference between my logic and your logic? Mine is backed up by science:

I have said this once and I will say it again. If you are so bright as you think, why don't you work on Particle Field Theory? We could also use your insight on Chromodynamics.

What a joke.

Noexalt

Thanks Zhang, that was rich.

Fadl

I can imagine what you've just said as an excerpt from a routine where a sock puppet on your hand derides you and you feign offended. Are you being ironic? Because this sounds much more like a description of you than Timothy. Just sayin'.

Zhang

Lol. Fadl if science showed tomorrow that homosexuality was not genetic, , we did not evolve from primates, and that the earth was 6,000 years old, I would believe any and all of those things.

However, the science simply does not say that, and therefore I am inclined to accept the theories but forward by the scientific community. I greatly resent the layman who thinks that they can enter the scientific discussion with nothing but a bit of "logic", if you can even call it that.

If are not a surgeon would you ever critique a professional's ability to perform a micro cauterization during a lung surgery? I mean come on, would you really? Doesn't that seem just the least bit arrogant? Egotisical? So what gives you or Timothy the right to say that you know the truth? Where did you study science?

The sock puppet comment only confirms my suspicions; that you are uneducated and immature. Which is fine, not everyone has access to an education (unfortunately), and I trust you will seek to change this sad reality one day, but in the interim you could at least be humble about it.

Perhaps you never liked science, and decided to study business. That's fine, not everyone likes science like us geeks do. But I will never comment on your understanding of economics (or whatever it is you do, simply because I am not qualified to. Anyone who does otherwise is deluding themselves.

Not a theoretical physicist? Don't try to use your "logic" to explain String Field Theory. Not a biologist? Don't try to use "logic" to explain homosexuality.

My anger only comes from those who consider themselves professional scientists, geneticists, and evolutionary biologists simply because they watch the news and read a few articles here and there.

I used to watch House. Does that mean I can open up my own practice now?

Fadl

Speaking of logic, I was responding only to your mischaracterization of Timothy and then you start talking about something else altogether to defend it. And what does rocket science have to do with string theory? I know of biologists who study marine animals or amphibians. Can they enlighten us on human sexuality? And why, as a neurobiologist, is it that you have so much to say about things that don't pertain to your field? Seems you've exempted yourself from hypocrisy.

Anyway, I am sure that in real life you are nowhere near as intolerant, rude or illogical as you appear in your posts, so I will try and look past it.

Zhang

That was a typo, I fixed that almost a minute after I posted it, I do make mistakes! Dayum you're fast.

Maybe not humans, but i'm sure they have some fascinating information on marine sexuality! (Which is great because we evolved from the sample primitive series of cells and our DNA codes in very much the same way)

I don't. I never commented on the validity of string theory. Never on particle physics. Never on Chromodynamics. I use them as examples. Want to know why I don't? I'm not a physicist.

Trying to show you that Timothy has no basis trying to use pure logic in order to debunk the theory that says sexuality is determined in the womb. As I said many times, pure logic once said that the earth was a flat plane. It must be supported by scientific data.

LOL. Ok amigo. Sure, whatever you say. I'm the one advocating for equal rights for homosexuals (marriage, positions in Baha'i leadership, voting rights, acceptance, exposing the homophobia of many who follow a religion of unity, lack of scriptural evidence to support the Baha'i position on gays) and I'M the intolerant one.

'K.

Anis

Unity,

1. Gay People Are Nice

First let me acknowledge that I have many friends who are gay. The current emphasis for Baha'is throughout the world is to seek high education and community building. Not to be trifling over a trivial matter that has been explained in the writings a hundred years ago!

"Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history, is the question of immorality, and overemphasis of sex. Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, also, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays." The Guardian.

2. A Chaste Heart

The basis of all sexual relations must be chastity. In the absence of chastity, the mind and body is consumed with lust and the desire for pleasure in the contingent world. Even the honest heart that knows all things in the world of creation are one, if consumed with lust, becomes wrought with delusion, barred from freedom and clings onto temporary things. Gay or straight, these words are for all.

"Lauded be Thy name, O Thou Who art the Goal of my desire! I swear by Thy glory! How great is my wish to attain unto a detachment so complete that were there to appear before me those countenances which are hid within the chambers of chastity, and the beauty of which Thou didst veil from the eyes of the entire creation, and whose faces Thou didst sanctify from the sight of all beings, and were they to unveil themselves in all the glory of the splendors of Thine incomparable beauty, I would refuse to look upon them, and would behold them solely for the purpose of discerning the mysteries of Thy handiwork, which have perplexed the minds of such as have drawn nigh unto Thee, and awed the souls of all them that have recognized Thee. I would, by Thy power and Thy might, soar to such heights that nothing whatsoever would have the power to keep me back from the manifold evidences of Thy transcendent dominion, nor would any earthly scheme shut me out from the manifestations of Thy Divine holiness." Baha'u'llah

3. A Chaste Marriage

This is so self-explanatory and evident in the writings if one who keeps an open mind and study a few passages. It becomes clear, that the reason why same-sex marriage is not that gays are merely forbidden from doing so. It is that same-sex marriage is inapplicable to the underlying purpose of marriage: spiritual and physical unification to reproduce. As illustrated by those who have walked the Baha'i life in the Lights of Guidance. Marriage is of utmost importance, and held in high spiritual esteem in the writings, that it is considered adultry to have sex outside marriage, or sex without the intent of producing human life.

"The Bahá'í Teachings do not only encourage marital life, considering it the natural and normal way of existence for every sane, healthy and socially-conscious and responsible person, but raise marriage to the status of a Divine institution, its chief and sacred purpose being the perpetuation of the human race -- which is the very flower of the entire creation -- and its elevation to the true station destined for it by God." Lights of Guidance.

4. Seize the Unattainable Goal

Last, the Baha'i standard must be the highest standard for this era. It is impossible however, to attain such chastity in a world where sexual desire is the norm. That is why instead, the friends are strongly encouraged to focus entirely on world unity, so that all of society can be transformed together in harmonious fashion

"Love all from the depths of your hearts. Be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. You must not see evil as evil and then compromise with your opinion, for to treat in a smooth, kindly way one whom you consider evil or an enemy is hypocrisy, and this is not worthy or allowable. You must consider your enemies as your friends, look upon your evil-wishers as your well-wishers and treat them accordingly. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. Do not complain of others. Refrain from reprimanding them, and if you wish to give admonition or advice, let it be offered in such a way that it will not burden the bearer. Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts. Beware! Beware! lest ye offend any heart. Assist the world of humanity as much as possible. Be the source of consolation to every sad one, assist every weak one, be helpful to every indigent one, care for every sick one, be the cause of glorification to every lowly one, and shelter those who are overshadowed by fear." Abdu'l-Baha.

Best regards

Noexalt

Oh boy, your sparring with Fadl aside, you've just unleashed a horde of Baha'i warriors on you. Let's play a game, let's count how many times the words "Baha'i Law" and "Covenant" are used in response to this, and how many crickets we hear when prejudice within the Baha'i community is brought up.

I'll be watching. This should be quite a sight to behold.

LordOfGoblins

People need to put aside there egos and try to work towards fruitful discussion. It is in mans nature that he thinks hes more right than others but ultimately these approaches just lead to bickering if people dont see the value in what others have to say and just want to worship their own opinion..

Timothy248

Thanks for the support Fadl.

As their are no new arguments for me to debate I will stop replying to this topic.

However one final observation; the obsessive posting patterns of those who disagree prove my beliefs. Only beings whose beliefs are aligned with the will of god can remain impartial, because distance from god leads to suffering which prevents detachment.

Noexalt

Again, Haughty, Haughty, Haughty, arrogance, ego, superiority, I know, but you know not. "I'm aligned with the Will of God, and YOU"RE NOT!!!"

Timothy, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but these are also against Baha'i teachings. I would like to see your argument on the logic and reason of why the Baha'i Faith condemns haughtiness and arrogance. Here are some writings that may help you with this.

In accordance with the divine teachings in this glorious dispensation we should not belittle anyone and call him ignorant, saying: 'You know not, but I know'. Rather, we should look upon others with respect, and when attempting to explain and demonstrate, we should speak as if we are investigating the truth, saying: 'Here these things are before us. Let us investigate to determine where and in what form the truth can be found.' The teacher should not consider himself as learned and others ignorant. Such a thought breedeth pride, and pride is not conducive to influence. The teacher should not see in himself any superiority; he should speak with the utmost kindliness, lowliness and humility, for such speech exerteth influence and educateth the souls.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 30)



I guess maybe since this isn't in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, it must only be a "guideline" and not a law.. Oh wait...

Let no man exalt himself above another; all are
but bondslaves before the Lord, and all exemplify the
truth that there is none other God but Him.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 45)

And yet there are more..


Better look at your own self before you start looking at homosexuality.

O SON OF BEING!
How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

O SON OF MAN!
Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

206.3a And amongst the realms of unity is the unity of rank and station. It redoundeth to the exaltation of the Cause, glorifying it among all peoples. Ever since the seeking of preference and distinction came into play, the world hath been laid waste. It hath become desolate. Those who have quaffed from the ocean of divine utterance and fixed their gaze upon the Realm of Glory should regard themselves as being on the same level as the others and in the same station. Were this matter to be definitely established and conclusively demonstrated through the power and might of God, the world would become as the Abha Paradise.

(The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 376)

Napkin

I know I'm against laws of the Baha'i faith. That's besides the point.

We are talking about human rights and discrimination here. I'm having a hard time warping my mind around how a religion that screams unity and love, is actually discriminating against perfectly good creatures of God who happen have been born gay!

This is just like saying black people are sick and they need to pray their color away.

Itena

Why do you think it's equivalent to hatred of skin colour?

Fadl

I wonder to what extremes those who advocate the equality of homosexual relations are willing to go. Here are a few different senarios. If you are one of those who believe that homosexuality is normal and there is no logocal reason to condemn it, please weigh in on how you would feel about the following:

1. Consenting sexual relationships between siblings, either male or female, with the possibility for legitimate marriages between them.

2. Same as above between half siblings.

3. Same as above between first cousins.

4. Same as above between second or third cousins.

5. Same as above between parent and child (of consenting age).

6. Same as above between adopted child (of consenting age) and parent.

7. Same as above between a human and an animal.

8. Same as above between a human and an other extra terrestrial sentient species.


Perhaps some of these you would support, and others you would not. Please explain why you would or would not consider these types of relationships acceptible, and please, only respond if you are one of those here who have advocated for homosexuality in general.

ahanu

Now, if the extra terrestrial sentient species is an advanced civilization and can take on human shape and form, would you really know the difference? Or what if we could take on their form? I'd support it! Let me guess: you did not like the movie Avatar, huh?


Animals are lower forms of being, so I do not support bestiality.


Because of the large population of humans on planet Earth, I see no need for sexual relationships between siblings to be legitimate. The same answer applies for scenarios two through five.

This is a new one for me. Are there any examples of this in real life?

Napkin

Because gay ppl didn't choose to be gay. They were born that way and ppl don't don't choose their skin color.

Itena

So, you think a psychological thing that influences actions is equivalent to a skin thing like the amount of melanin you have, which is constant? Am I correct in assuming that this is what you think?

Napkin

I'm not going to have the whole homosexuality being biological convo all over again. Google it.

Itena

Which I've already done. I've looked into it, I've researched, I've come to some conclusions based on what I've read and after lots of thought.

And that's fine, we don't need to have the conversation all over again.