Timothy248

Hello, I'm writing this to explain what I propose are the logical reasons why Baha'i discourage homosexuality, because its such a significant issue and for many people a reason to not be religious.

First we have to accept that suffering exists. Why does it exist? Because suffering and love are to components of the same thing, in the same way that light cannot exist without dark. Suffering takes many forms, and many forms of suffering are universal to humans.

Secondly, no-one is unchangeably homosexual, though to discuss the tangible nature of the soul would lead to a much larger explanation, and detract from the purpose of this post.

Finally, the direct forms of suffering that occur within the practice of homosexuality:
- Important aspects of the structure of society are degraded
- Spritual health decreases because it lacks purpose
- The body is violated as organs are used in disrespecful ways

Pete in Panama

Thank you for sharing your thoughts; interesting approach. Let's first identify the facts as separate from our beliefs. These are the facts that I think we can verify:

1. Virtually all Baha'i s (and all humans for that matter) will time to time experiance sexual lust for someone of the same sex.
2. We also at one time or another feel an urge to strangle the airline clerk that can't find our luggage.
3. We either control our urges or we risk loosing our voting rights.
4. Baha'is can't be soldiers, diplomats, or openly practicing homosexuals.
5. That doesn't mean we think they're subhuman.

Here're my personal understandings:

1. The survival of the human race is a good idea.
2. Sustained survival of the species requires reproduction.
3. Reproduction is done by heterosexuals. OK, so it's possible for homosexuals to reproduce just like it's possible to swim from England to Europe. Big deal. Virtually all people cross the channel by plane, boat, or chunnel.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete in Panama Baha'is can't be soldiers....

Inaccurate.

Baha'is may serve in the military--and indeed, in some countries are subject to a draft.

But any Baha'i so serving is explicitly urged to apply for noncombatant status as a conscientious objector if such a status is available in that country.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Zhang

Wow Timothy, just wow. Here goes:

What you fail to understand is that "feelings" are just combinations of chemicals produced and regulated in the brain in order to promote certain things, from eating, sleeping, hydration, and yes, reproduction. Homosexuals aren't physically injured, they can still reproduce with a female in the biological sense, but a gene factor has made this undesirable for a scientific reason which I will briefly explain below.

Timothy, what you don't understand is that homosexuality IS a natural component of animal life. We see this in humans and we see this animals, it is very wide in that regard. As the population of a species increases, offspring of the male persuasion are born with an attraction to the opposite sex. Thus making them more effeminate and capable to care for the female's now increased fertility rate. It's a bit more complicated than this, but I can show you in detail if you would prefer.

Therefore, why are we so against a tool that is almost universal in animal life. The only way that one could deny this fact is, I think, if one is still under the impression that the earth is 6,000 years old. In which case, there is nothing I can do for said individual.

The Baha'i god guided evolution, right? If this is really as wrong as we think, why the hell did he not omit it in his original plan?

Maybe it's a test? If it is a test, why does it have a 0% pass rate? That seems inexplicably cruel. Show me the evidence that gays can change their persuasion.

This is what scares me. Where did you study science? What are your credentials? Why do you find flaw in the proven science that we have, and on what basis do you make your claims? Where are your numbers, your data?

LordOfGoblins

zhang. Just because science shows homosexuality is a force created by science it really is irrelevent.
Your not reading what Im writing...
Consider the fasting period. Science shows WE DESIRE TO EAT FOOD.
yet we depive ourself of food from sunrise to sundown. Scientifically we are shown to desire to eat. Scientifically you think you have found something that shows homosexuality occurs inside the animal kingdom.
That is besides the point. Religion imposes austerities on man in order for the growth of his soul.
Read that carefully.
Read it again. It is a common theme in religion. Our souls benefit from the laws of God and these restrictions...


Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 335)

anyone is free to choose their own path. Do you object to not having sex before marraige?
You may not, and the reason is id hazard a guess- because it doesnt offend your sensibilites- unlike this issue does..

LordOfGoblins

Zhang think carefully about the fast.
All you are doing is depriving yourslef of food. Yet apparently that is helping you our souls...
THe primary reason why it does so is because it shows obediance to God and sacrifice..

Zhang

I thought about this, here's what I came up with.

Food is a natural human response, to the body's need for nourishment. When we fast, from sunrise to sundown (apprx 12 hours) we are teaching ourselves that we should be grateful for what we have, more dependent on God, etc. Okay, that's great.

Sex is a natural human response, to the species need to continue to exist. If we limit sex, to say, no pre-marital sex, this will teach us to be dependent on God, to know that sex should be between two individuals. Okay, that's great too.

Now we get to this idea that, ok no premarital sex, but if you're also gay, no sex for life. Say what?! Also no marriage. Just so...you know...you get to know God...or something...>.>

Homosexuals can restrict themselves to the same requirements as heterosexuals. But once they find a loving life-partner, who is to say that those requirements should remain in tact? Your analogy only goes so far. If I were to continue to entertain it, it would go something like this:

We fast to teach us that we are dependent on God. That helps our souls. When we completely abstain from food, we really help our souls because we completely free ourselves from our animal existence. Therefore based upon this logic, that fasting is good, part-day, it would be best to fast full day too. For a full month.

Isn't that just crazy?

Don't you wonder why Baha'ullah promoted part-day fasting, no sex before marriage, and monogamy, but never said anything about Homosexuality and Gay marriage? If the faith is so accepting and tolerant why does it contain this blatant contradiction? Where is the equality?

I tell you where it is; the equality only goes so far, and then Baha'is are just as intolerant as the rest of the world's religions. Amazing that a religion of peace, unity, and tolerance can still be a force for the mistreatment of minorities.

Too many Baha'is are listening to a so-called Guardian and not to the very messenger of God himself. At least the Jihadists have scripture to back their ridiculous claims.

Napkin

This maybe the most "out of-touch with reality" posts on this forum.
Not only are you alienating our gay friends, you are also demonstrating this religion's bogus claims of unity and parallelism with science.

Pete in Panama

That's both true and not entirely relevant.

Let's agree that there are good people who've chosen worthy and necessary careers with the military or diplomatic core and yet we still have administrative sanctions preventing Baha'is from pursuing similar careers. Likewise there are good people who are Republicans, homosexuals, and Mormons who would have to change their lifestyles in order to become Baha'is even though we're not necessarily considering Republican, homosexual, and Mormon activities to be pathological.

Zhang

This thread is getting crazier and crazier by the minute.

Now being a Republican or a Mormon is "involving, caused by, or of the nature of a physical or mental disease." i.e. pathological.

Thank God I wasn't born Republican...(?). Maybe I can pray it away!

Republican is a choice, Homosexuality is a tool employed by nature. Limits are okay, (no sex before marraige, we all benefit from this) But by saying, "Sorry gays, you can't have sex, ever." is just plain bigotry.

Which goes along with the scientific data I have been telling you all along.

Listen to your manifestation: throw away your preconceived notions about homosexuality as superstition, they don't agree with the science.

For a religion of "unity" there seems to be a great amount of prejudice.

Timothy248

"What you fail to understand is that "feelings" are just combinations of chemicals produced and regulated in the brain in order to promote certain things, from eating, sleeping, hydration, and yes, reproduction. Homosexuals aren't physically injured, they can still reproduce with a female in the biological sense, but a gene factor has made this undesirable for a scientific reason which I will briefly explain below."

Zhang, feelings are combinations of chemicals produced and regulated as well, but my point holds true, give me an example of a feeling occurring when it isn't formed by an aspect of reality. Hunger is a feeling that results in the will to eat, sleeping the will to rest, drinking the will to hydrate, lust the will to reproduce.


"Timothy, what you don't understand is that homosexuality IS a natural component of animal life. We see this in humans and we see this animals, it is very wide in that regard. As the population of a species increases, offspring of the male persuasion are born with an attraction to the opposite sex. Thus making them more effeminate and capable to care for the female's now increased fertility rate. It's a bit more complicated than this, but I can show you in detail if you would prefer."

Although I've never heard of this occurring, I disagree that examples of homosexuality occurring within the animal kingdom is any proof that it is healthy or unhealthy spiritually. Animals will suffer in the same way. Effeminate qualities and sexual attraction are only linked through misunderstanding, because a male will see female qualities as a sign that reproduction will occur, so will innocently pursue the target sexually. But my point is that its the idea that reproduction occurs which fuels lust, and if we are aware that it isn't going to occur, the lust becomes twisted, and the suffering arises.


"The Baha'i god guided evolution, right? If this is really as wrong as we think, why the hell did he not omit it in his original plan?"

As I said, suffering has to exist so that love can exist, so as god creates love suffering is created as as bi product.


"Maybe it's a test? If it is a test, why does it have a 0% pass rate? That seems inexplicably cruel. Show me the evidence that gays can change their persuasion."

What is it that you believe defines a gay person? Their is no gay DNA identified, everyone can generate lust for the same sex if they try hard enough. Their isn't anything that suggests they can't change, however I'm not saying all homosexuals have the ability to change, it takes skill and effort and suffering. In fact I accept that their is a point where the suffering of a gay person changing outweighs the suffering of maintaining their lifestyle. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that it is suffering, and mislead future generations.


"This is what scares me. Where did you study science? What are your credentials? Why do you find flaw in the proven science that we have, and on what basis do you make your claims? Where are your numbers, your data?"

Everything I've said can be proven by simple reasoning without the need for science. Give me any example of scientific research that is support homosexuality and I will counter it with simple reason. The main purpose of science is to advance materialistically, so relying on it to guide you spiritually is like trying to use a car to fly to the moon.


"This maybe the most "out of-touch with reality" posts on this forum.
Not only are you alienating our gay friends, you are also demonstrating this religion's bogus claims of unity and parallelism with science."

I disagree, it's secular beliefs that are out of touch with reality. How can religion and science not be parallel? This is common sense because they are describing the same reality, yet science is incomplete and religion lacks scientific process's for its understanding, that's the only difference in regards to their truths. Its like saying this food tastes good but that's a matter of spirit rather than science, but that's wrong because we know that taste is defined by the scientific properties of the food.
Alienating? No, I don't focus on my dislike for homosexuality, I love gay people for their good qualities, I don't try and change them inappropriately. But this is an appropriate place to say these things, because we are here to discuss spiritual matters, and this is clearly a significant spiritual issue. Look how many replies I've gotten already.

Pete in Panama

OOPS! Left out the 'not'.That's still not true, but don't stop. Maybe your saying it a few more times here will make it so.Ah, found where you got that quote, you got it from this letter to an individual believer.

Zhang

Great, so basically Pete resorts to complete rejection and trolling. Love it. Sure fire sign of a victory.

LOL. Okay there, Baha'ullah, i'm glad that you are so smart that you can systematically dismantle countless research study with the power of your logical mind.

It's okay, these aren't fake.

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

Male Homosexuality Study: Gay Men Have Evolutionary Benefit For Their Families, New Research Suggests

Gaydar really exists: Scientists prove gays can pick out fellow homosexuals | Mail Online

Are we born gay? Science suggests yes » Redding Record Searchlight

A function for “gay genes” after all?

I'm so thankful that you are all scientists and therefore able to comment on this matter. If you reject the science, you have either not bothered to look, or are thoroughly convinced that your own intelligence and logical reasoning is superior to others.

Homophobes Might Be Hidden Homosexuals

Emilia

To be utterly frank with you, I wish the heck I knew.

I can't think of anyone who doesn't have some challenges to deal with when it comes to Baha'i Law. In most cases it's a lot clearer to me what harm is done when those laws are ignored, whether it's harm to society or harm to the self.

Oh are we in the pulpits recommending homosexuals be mistreated? I seem to have missed that entirely.

Do we sit around complaining about all the harm gays are doing to society and fearing they're all making kids gay or something? I kinda missed that too.

Are we trying to enact laws that would have force outside our religion? No. Are Institutions of the Faith telling Baha'is how to vote on such subjects? No. What secular law does is its business.

We don't drink either and we aren't trying to shut down all the bars. Imagine that.

Actually, it's my personal experience that we rarely discuss homosexuality and related laws, if at all, and that in itself can be a problem.

It behooves Baha'is to understand exactly what the law is (and is not) so that we don't go off stupidly and think it's okay to go around finger pointing and condemning people and mistreating them because they happen to be gay.

Without consultation and deepening on the subject, people may refer back to what they knew from society before they became Baha'is, because hey, old habits die hard.

I presume that's why the UHJ put out the statement that it did. Quite frankly I wish we would spend more time considering the contents, but there is some fear at least where I live of actually opening up the topic at all.

So do we. The Messenger of God was specific about who had the right to make interpretations of law and what those limits were.

The Guardian, according to what Baha'u'llah said was to be done -- had that right.

I might not particularly like it, but I can't think of any religion that there isn't at least one thing I wish wasn't there. For that matter, I can't think of any organization of a secular variety that hasn't got at least one thing about it I don't like.

To insist some organization have must have 100% compliance with an individual's personal views or they are "wrong" is the sort of thing immature teenagers rant about.

When I'm told I have to oppress people because they're homosexual and treat them like their a lesser species, I guess I'll go back to being an atheist. Or a Unitarian. Or whatever else.

In the meantime, if you don't mind too much, I will continue to advocate for people who are gay being treated as just as human as the rest of us, just like the UHJ said in their letter:
And yes, actually from where I'm sitting that means not standing in the way of marriage equality as a matter of secular law.

You know, because secular law is...secular.

Emilia

You haven't read me say that homosexuality is a choice and there is no underlying physical reason for orientation because I'm well aware of the findings thus far, including some of the specific sources you linked to.

So you can knock off the "all" anytime you like.

Oh, and Zhang. Actually I am a scientist.

But since my field has nothing to do with topics like sexual orientation, as always I will defer to those who are actually qualified.

In the meantime, I'll continue reading journal articles of interest on the topic of orientation as I run across them and have time to read things outside my field.

Zhang

I know you are a chemist, and i'm sure a good one at that. My apologies for generalizing.

Funny that you say that. Baha'ullah did not appoint Shoghi as the interpreter. He specifically appointed another named Mírzá Muhammad `Alí, who was excommunicated by Baha'is after a power struggle between him and Shoghi. He was later labeled as a covenant-breaker. Guess the messenger missed that one...oops.

If you read the holy book, you will see that it was designed to replace modern laws and unite the entire globe under one common system. The holy book also says nothing about homosexuality, (though it does perscribe the punishment for arson as human-immolation). Yet Bahai's use it as a basis in order to repress the homosexuals among their group, and create bigots among many of the followers. The problem isn't that it threatens modern society by trying to change laws, it creates people ignorant of the scientific facts of homosexuality.

Why are gay Baha'is systematically having their voting rights removed? Their are countless testimonies from many who have experienced this, I can share it with you.

-张

Timothy248

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex - life - 16 June 2008 - New Scientist

This makes sense, our brains structure is a reflection of our lifestyle and spirit, and many homosexual people act and live like the opposite sex. This doesn't mean that homosexual sex doesn't form suffering in the way I described.


Male Homosexuality Study: Gay Men Have Evolutionary Benefit For Their Families, New Research Suggests

A gene that makes the human more attractive to men being the conclusion of the article. This makes sense via the law of attraction, guys who turn other men on will naturally be more likely to end up in that lifestyle. If people had proper control of lust this wouldn't occur.


Gaydar really exists: Scientists prove gays can pick out fellow homosexuals | Mail Online

Everything we perceive in the result of our will.



Are we born gay? Science suggests yes » Redding Record Searchlight

External conditions influence the likelihood someone will choose to be gay, this is just cause and effect.



A function for “gay genes” after all?

This article is very hypothetical doesn't really give me anything to debate.


"I'm so thankful that you are all scientists and therefore able to comment on this matter. If you reject the science, you have either not bothered to look, or are thoroughly convinced that your own intelligence and logical reasoning is superior to others."

All science is doing is finding evidence that homosexuality is part of the observable world. Of course it is. All aspects of consciousness are manifested in the world as well. Anyone with enough spiritual understanding can interpret scientific results from a spiritual perspective aswell. The only reason these articles are pro gay is because the will of our society is pro gay. Therefore they interpret their information through a subjective perspective.


Homophobes Might Be Hidden Homosexuals

Although using fear to manipulate people may work on weaker minds, I'm not as naive. Through suffering at the hands of Satan which manifested in this situation though peer pressure and delusion I have come to know this issue inside, in fact my lack of homophobia tends to scare and disturb other people.

Zhang

Wrong. Your brain structure is biological and it's construction and maitenence is encoded in the genome. The hypothalamus is also one of our most primitive neurological centers.

Wrong. The males are homosexual and effeminate to take care of the sister's now increased fertility.

Do you remember when you decided that you wanted to be straight? How many men did you sleep with before you realized it wasn't for you? Are you attracted to men, but find yourself resisting the urge? If not, homosexuality is not a choice.

Speculation at best, not science.

That last article was thrown in just for laughs.

Timothy, with a brain like yours, have you considered going into particle physics? Why even bother performing trials with educated professionals when we can just defer to you? Looking forward to many more "insights".

Napkin

love this post. Thank you.

My first encounter with Baha'is was 3 Baha'i girls I dated. 2 were simply closeted lesbians and this religions push for them to hide it had made them nuts. I believe both are still single and still trying to keep themselves in the closet.

Timothy248

What you call closeted we call resistance to evil, and is a commendable characteristic.

Napkin

Do you live in the 14th century?

LordOfGoblins

Bahais are just as intolerant?
Because we have standards we are intolerant I guess.
Zhang you wont be completely abstaining from sex if you're homosexual. You will be realigning your desire towards the opposite gender. Now dont tell me if i can lie in bed and give myself sexual satisfaction using my hand that it is not possible to re-align my desire towards the opposite gender when my body is designed for sex towards that gender. Please dont tell me those things.
The kind of obstacles ive overcome in my life that shows the power of God to change people and apparently God is not powerful enough to help people witht their sexual desire...

Sen McGlinn

It was this kind of thinking that led to the definition of homosexuality as a mental illness. The facts are precisely the opposite of those you've stated: the suffering that homosexual entails is due to social prejudices and discrimination; homosexuality is by and large defined at birth, by genes and womb conditions. The reparative therapy that sought to return homosexuals to their "true" nature was in fact a twisting of the psyche, teaching the homosexual to delude himself or herself into denying his/her own nature. This created mental conflicts which were very harmful. Quite apart from the few who were damaged in therapy, the idea that change in sexual orientation was possible (if you try hard enough) imposed an enormous burden of expectations on young teens who became aware that they were homosexuals, leading to a terrible toll in suicides. In banning reparative therapy, the health profession and government agencies involved are not just sending a signal to health care professionals that this treatment is unacceptable, they are telling young people that it is OK to be yourself.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhang [H]omosexuality IS a natural component of animal life.

It might be more accurate to say it's found largely in animals that are under stress such as being placed in unnatural circumstances like a zoo.

Quote:

Therefore, why are we so against a tool that is almost universal in animal life?

What you overlook is that humans are held to a higher standard than mere animal life, and for (IOV) good reason!

Bruce

Zhang

Again, this is speculation. This is very much (and has been) observed in the wild.

Of course. I'm not saying we behave like chimps. But we ARE animals in the way that we eat, sleep, drink, and have sex. In this regard we are all alike and universal. I'm trying to show that science has observed that homosexuality is not some primitive function to be overcome, but very natural such as eating. No sex before marriage, that's fair.

But no sex ever? No voting rights? If you get too "flagrant" (what a morally reprehensible word) the community has to get together and tell you to chill out? Stop being the way God made you because we extrapolate (an understatement) that it's wrong and you're behaving like an animal? That's what Napkin and I are fighting against; prejudice and hypocrisy in a faith of unity and science.

Fadl

Not to mention that death and sickness are also a natural part of animal life. I'm not sure what homosexuality being natural has to do with anything. Is death and sickness going to be advocated too, based on their being natural and widespread among animals?

Zhang

O.o

Its naturalism has to do with EVERYTHING. It cannot be used as an excuse to limit the rights of members. It cannot be used as an excuse to convince people that they are wrong for "choosing" (lol) to be homosexual.

Where you born dead? Where you born sick? If this were the case, we would not use this as an excuse to limit your rights, or tell you that you need to overcome your "sickness" because it is an embarrassment to the community, even though you had no choice in the matter.

I am trying to equate it in the natural, unchangeable sense. If you were born with cerebral palsy, wouldn't you be outraged if Baha'is told you that you needed to get it under control, because you are giving the faith a bad image? What if they took away your voting rights until you stopped being so flagrant about it? Isn't that just wild? Why should homosexuality be any different.

LordOfGoblins

the two are different.
One is an expression of desire the other is a physical handicap.
Dont think Shoghi Effendi meant 'physical handicap' when he said handicap. He meant social and spiritual- surely.

LordOfGoblins

the issue of how the Bahais react to homosexuals it not the same as how homosexual behavior is judged according to the book of God.
We can be kind to people without condoning their behavior. I dont go out and call people sluts and persecute people who sleep around or who do things I dont approve of. They are separate issues. But what you are saying is we should not discourage something that is not considered moral in gods eyes..That would be hypocritical wouldnt it..

Fadl

If I were afflicted with cerebral palsy, no doubt the Baha'is would advise me to seek treatment from a competent physician, as the writings instruct us to do when we are ill. Hopefully, there would be treatments and at least means of symptom management available to me, rather than being told to simply embrace my natural self as God created me and to just celebrate it, since there are no treatments or even research dollars since all of that would be politically incorrect and too judgmental.

Zhang

Lol. What if that treatment resulted in serious mental scarring, emotional duress, and suicidal thoughts? Are you away that many states are now banning so called "gay healing" seminars because they not only destroy oneself emotionally, but destroy ones self image?

I was trying to show you how one sided your argument was. If people are killing themselves (many of whom are children) because they can't stand all of the hatred towards them, being told they are different, disgraceful, morally reprehensible. The best treatment in this case is acceptance, tolerance, equality, and love.

Ask any physician and they will tell you the same. The Baha'is are told to seek treatment, the treatment is that you should accept you for who you are, and how YOU were born. To accept that God made you this way and your are perfect just the way you are. People have tried for 40+ years to pray the gay away, get married and try to be heterosexual. But they destroyed themselves inside, many commit suicide, others can't handle the emotional stress and breakdown. But when they finally accept themselves for who they are, they are more healthy and happier than ever. If homosexuality were the norm, and you were hetero, could you really live a lie like that?

I couldn't care less if you don't like the treatment. I couldn't care less if you disagree with the science. That's your own problem, but innocent, kind people shouldn't have to live their lives in pain just because a few cynical Baha'is think pedophilia = homosexuality. Have you ever considered that you are the illness? Have you considered that not even the messenger of God considered this an issue, but you, a human, have found fault with it? What gives you that right? Who made you messenger?

Timothy248

"Do you remember when you decided that you wanted to be straight? How many men did you sleep with before you realized it wasn't for you? Are you attracted to men, but find yourself resisting the urge? If not, homosexuality is not a choice."

Zhang, I was spiritually intelligent and fortunate enough to never truly believe I'm straight, because I know that all identity is impermanent, I choose not to be homosexual because it leads to suffering. Unwholesome identity's that we believe can't be changed trap us in perpetual suffering, because free will only exists when it's believed in, don't let yourself be fooled by satan who does everything within his power to decieve us. Although this matter isn't directly related to DNA, even DNA can change: You Can Change Your DNA

When has a manifestation or divine being ever embraced homosexuality? I know of many that have discouraged this, but their aren't any that have encouraged it. What gives your opinion higher spiritual authority than theirs? Spiritual institutions have always had codes of conduct that discriminate against those who don't comply, and always will. Why spend your whole life in conflict with the way it is rather than embrace the word of god and be liberated?

Fadl

The keyword is COMPETENT physician, which would probably negate the extreme consequences which you describe. By the way, I've not advocated any available treatments that I know of and as far as I know, any such treatments are more or less by faith healers and self-declared experts which is tantamount to quackery. I have never recommended this, and, by the way, I've never recommended disgracing, shaming, stoning, or any other inhumane things that you have suggested or alluded to. Perhaps it is you who is being a touch extreme?

There are a great number of physical and psychological abnormalities and disorders for which there are no known cures. In such circumstances, certainly compassion, support, and understanding are the way to go. However, that is a far cry from validating abnormalities, and equating them as equal to normal. That is not compassion and understanding, it is simply falsehood. And the political correctness of saying it is just as good, and redefining marriage as something else is not a treatment either, but pure denial.

Zhang

Who said I was gay? Would it matter if I was? I am trying to make you understand that this is a very normal and beneficial trait used by nature and saying it's an illness only harms people.

You can't just go around changing DNA. It's very complicated, what seems like a slight adjustment to hair color could actually delete an entire half of your brain.

You're all crazy. Unlike you, I am a scientist well versed on this subject. I'm sorry that my credentials don't match up with the backyard observer's. Please direct your incredible mental energy to developing particle synthesis. Thanks.

It gets even crazier. Here is your hard evidence that homosexuality is a disease and a handicap.

That's it. There's your scriptural evidence. Come on, you have GOT to be kidding me. Simply disgusting.

Fadl

You are incorrect in your belief that the above quote is all that Baha'u'llah has written on the matter. There were many quotes brought to light in a different thread of the same topic some time ago, you might like to look there. Also, the mention of "boys" is tricky because the arabic word is not literally "boys" it is a word which has no exact English equivalent, and that has built into it the concept of promiscuity and other shades that make it clear in Arabic what is meant. It doesn't actually refer to paedephilia as much as it does to homosexuality, because the arabic word is not the same as "boy" which means a sexually immature male.

PS I never said you were homosexual, and I don't care. I was making statements that are conditional, hypothetical, and general, they were not pointed at or particular to you. I thought we were engaging in thoughtful discussion, but I see you are too emotional for that, for whatever reasons.

ahanu

Fadl, do you have any gay friends?

ahanu

Here's a powerful quote about a story of compassion involving a straight Christian pretending to be gay for one year:

When close family members and friends are gay, we often show compassion through action, and this often involves changing our view.

Can we call the Baha'i community an ally to the gay community?

Fadl

No one close, but I have had colleagues and associates in the past who were and we were friendly at the time, and enjoyed their company and respected them professionally.

I certainly don't have any problems with gay people or find them icky or sinful though, if that's what you are worried about.

LordOfGoblins

The problem is that people get far too emotional about this issue- as youve already witnessed on this thread. And a lot of these gay communities are perfect examples of this sort of all or nothing approach to being a homosexual. There is no room for looking at it in another perspective that it might be a condition that one could get assistance for.

It depends what being an ally would look like. THe Bahais cant support a pro-homosexual activity agenda, but we can support the idea of helping people come to terms with issues and resolving them. Anything that helps socio econimic development the Bahais would support unless im mistaken.

BruceDLimber

IOW, you're both against the teachings and laws of the Baha'i Faith.

Fine! Your choice!

You will forgive me, I trust, if I'm not impressed.


Bruce