Timothy248

Last night me and my fiancee, Laura, went to our first book of ruhi sessions. We completed the first 4 sections of the first book, and I was quit dissapointed because of the focus on extreme honesty. Their were a couple of questions that, although we were left to answer, seemed to be implying that it's never ok to lie, no matter what the situation, please correct me if I misinterpreted this.

Although truthfulness is a great quality, and a honest relationship is lovely, a position of absolute honesty is soul destroying in a world full of so much dellusion and ignorance. For example, a few months ago I was walking home with Laura and I was testing this technique, she asked me if I loved her, I replied their is no you to love, but I love what you believe is you. She was horrified and wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the walk home. You may say that this is good because she would learn, but this is a concept I expect she will never fully comprehend.

In scriptures for example the bible, satan is often regarded as a real being, whereas we are taught now that infact this was personification of lack of god. Surely the spiritual masters of that time new these things, but lied with good intention.

LordOfGoblins

OMG. You just made my DAY!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Iconodule

The biblical writers were not in the habit of lying callously to defend truth. Saint Paul gave a rpinciple, what profit is it to lie for the glory of God? None, if I may paraphrase him. and what do you mean there is no "you" to love? Do you deny personhood?

Anis

Oh no! I feel for you buddy. Yes, sometimes there are questions in the Ruhi books that need more clarification, this is because they are in constant state of development.

I will only humbly turn your attention towards some guidance from the writings, rather than laughing and pointing fingers at you for spoiled entertainment.

Baha'u'llah saith, 'Not everything that one knows can be disclosed, nor can everything that one can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.' Be tactful.

Honesty is not merely stating what is true, it is upholding the value of your words when delivering truth, one bite at a time. The absence of truth is not necessarily a lie, it is not boolean "true or false", rather it is an investigation, a sequence of learning. Practice integrity.

In this respect, the Word of God is the peak of honesty. And it is articulated in such a fashion that only the sincere hearts can taste its essence.

In my humble opinion, when showing your love for another, one must discover the precise chemistry balance for words in order to project your feelings with caring sincerity. If you truly love someone, a simple "I love you" is more than enough. Though I'm not really one for mushy words 'If I love you, I need not continually speak of my love - you will know without any words. On the other hand if I love you not, that also will you know - and you would not believe me, were I to tell you in a thousand words, that I loved you.' Abdu'l-baha.

Kind regards.

Timothy248

Iconodule what part of NZ are you from? I'm from Christchurch.

Be careful because this concept can be easily misunderstood with drastic consequences on our mental health, it simply means that everything is connected, their is no part of you that is seperate from the one reality and can be truly claimed to be you because everything belongs to the one, aka God within most religions.

Please give me the book chapter and section of this quote from St Paul, I can't find it and want to see its exact phrasing.

Thanks Anis, your insightful reply has been very assuring of my conclusions, but I doubted them because we are so often told that lieing is always a bad thing.

Fadl

Timothy,

Would you mind providing a few of the specific Ruhi quotes? I don't remember feeling that truthfulness meant I should go around wounding people armed only with my brutal honesty. Anis provided a good statement showing the need for tact and wisdom which certainly apply, but it would help if we could no which quote is leaving you with this feeling of extreme truthfulness. By the way, one thing that is problematic with brutal truth telling is that it operates under the assumption that I always possess the truth and should therefore dispense it to everyone. In reality, not everything I think, know, or feel are necessarily true at all, being the small and limited being that I am. Just a thought.

Timothy248

Fadl, here's the part I'm referring to:
Section 4, Question # 3; Decide if the following statements are true or false:
...
H: It is all right to tell lies now and then
...
Thats the most extreme example, seeming to imply that its never ok to tell lies, and in the first four sections truthfulness is mentioned about 18 times.

Fadl

Ah, yes. Now I remember it.

Well, the good news is that that little bit is not from the writings, it is a question written by the creators of the booklet.

Some of the Ruhi questions are meant to be simple, and the answer can often be found verbatim in the quotations when this is the case. Others are meant to be more challenging and could lead to more than one answer and some good discussion about it. That question fits in the later category to me, and I've actually had some very good discussions in Ruhi over that particular question! Contrary to what some may believe, Ruhi is not program that doesn't allow for any thinking, deepening, or discussion. Of course not all circles are the same! ;-)


Anyway, thanks for raising this topic, it's a good one!

Itena

Well, it is stated that Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Abdu'l Baha talks of how even a single lie is detrimental to us. But brutal honesty is not the way either. As Anis states, Tact is the key.

Now Tactfulness is a virtue that I have taken a lot of time to understand and practice(thought I'm sure I still have a long way to go!); it's one of my personal favourites, so I think I'll talk about it, since I love it so very much. It is a virtue who's definition seems a little misunderstood in society. Right now, there is this way of thinking among some individuals that brutal honesty is something that should be celebrated, and that tactfulness is weak and deceitful. But true Tactfulness, I believe, is something powerful, something that embraces truthfulness and in no ways states a lie, and is the key tool in loving consultation with one's friends and family. Tactfulness is knowing good timing, being understanding of the other person's feelings and position, and being able to state the truth in a way that nobody is offended or hurt. Just like in that quote from Abdu'l Baha that Anis references.

And this quote from Baha'u'llah is long, but I think relevant. I especially love the simile of speaking with words "mild as milk".

Every word is endowed with a spirit, therefore the speaker or expounder should carefully deliver his words at the appropriate time and place, for the impression which each word maketh is clearly evident and perceptible. The Great Being saith: One word may be likened unto fire, another unto light, and the influence which both exert is manifest in the world. Therefore an enlightened man of wisdom should primarily speak with words as mild as milk, that the children of men may be nurtured and edified thereby and may attain the ultimate goal of human existence which is the station of true understanding and nobility. And likewise He saith: One word is like unto springtime causing the tender saplings of the rose-garden of knowledge to become verdant and flourishing, while another word is even as a deadly poison. It behoveth a prudent man of wisdom to speak with utmost leniency and forbearance so that the sweetness of his words may induce everyone to attain that which befitteth man’s station.
(Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 172-173)

I'm happy to be discussing this topic, thanks for giving us the opportunity to share our thoughts, Tony!

tonyfish58

The Baha'i Blog had something on this

Here is a link to the talk

3 Tricky Truthfulness Scenarios | Baha'i Blog

Regards Tony

Napkin

Yes, it appears the founders of Baha'i faith did not consider all angles.
For example, I think it should be OK to lie and say You are not a Baha'i, if you live in Iran and you are about to experience torture or be killed for your beliefs....then you live to teach another day

They also say you should love your parents......if your Father raped you and your mother sold you to sex slavery, Baha'i says you should love them....
They didn't know that smart people would be online dissecting their writing....They just said what they though made sense.....150 years ago....in Iran. Its just obvious surface instructions. Of course you shouldn't lie.

Noexalt

I think we all lie, and that's not going away anytime soon. Yes, avoid it, but this puritanical Draconian rigidity has got to stop. It's all fake, when someone tries to enforce puritanism on you, you can be rest assured that they are the hypocrite, and have some motives behind their rigidity. (They want to control you for their own sense of personal power).

Sen McGlinn

It's all in how you go about it. Abdu'l-Baha explains:

Napkin

Wait minute, I Understand he's explaining sometimes there are positive lies.....Is he saying doctors should tell dying people they are going to be fine just to make them happy? Some analogies are beyond childish.

Fadl

Wait just a minute here. Does this mean that the Baha'i religion doesn't hold to extremes or absolute maxims that are false, and that it is a sensible and practical religion?? Crikey!!

LordOfGoblins

Napkin.
A wise man once said "To almost pretty much every rule there is an exception"...

Iconodule

I would suggest common reality, the common experience denotes that I am not my sister and she is not me. That we are individuals of a different mind. We are not one, in any meaningful sense. Oh I can say we are on in humanity, and in other aspects such as that. We may have common cause on certain things, but we are not hte same. We are different.

But perhaps you've been watching too much Neon Genesis evangelion.

Romans 3 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Napkin

That wise man was not a Baha'i.....was he?

LordOfGoblins

that wise man was me bro..

Napkin

lol

When did you resign from the faith?

LordOfGoblins

wy are you surprised. The faith encourages moderation. Perhaps you are getting us confused with Iconodule, the worshipper of absolutism...

Iconodule

Actually worshipper of God and I do appreciate a consistent viewpoint.

LordOfGoblins

sometimes we worship various notions without realising it..

Essence of GOD

indeed there is no you, or i.
at birth we are given a name to base ourselves around, then we take things and added to i, and categorize ourselves based on our things.
how sad is that.
the beauty of space is not the galaxies and the stars, but the limitless empty space that allows everything to be.

oh and honesty is always good, the truth hurts, but lies kill.

tonyfish58

You made some interesting points - A Baha'i true to their Faith would not hide His/Her Faith just to save their skin Even today we would answer the question as to what we beleive as " I am a Baha'i". What happens from then is left to the will of God.

There are many 100's of thousands that have already chosen that path.

As to your other comments they are way over the top examples. As I have not been in these positions, I can not offer an answer for me.

I can say that there have been a few that have wished me unwell (to say the least) over the years. I still pray for them and wish them no Ill Will. All have a soul in them that is capable of Knowing and Loving God, it is to that we must look for. It is up to God to forgive, not us. We are to treat them as we would any friend, no different.

I can say with some personal knowledge of someone who faced one of the experiences you mentioned. That if the person does not forgive these acts, then they will suffer a lifetime of inner torment. What I can not say is if I think they should be able to do this. Once such an atrocity has been done, it will take years of soul searching to come to terms with and some never do.

It is a high calling to reach this state of Love & forgiveness, but we are called to this state. I am thankful that there are a lot of people striving towards this goal. The more that try, the more that these atrocities will not happen.

Regards Tony

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napkin Is ['Abdul-Baha] saying doctors should tell dying people they are going to be fine just to make them happy?

Clearly not!

This is not about "making them happy." If you reread carefully, you'll find he explained that this is to foster and promote the healing process!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Iconodule

Like Bahai obstinantly believing in things which are contradictions?

Itena

So. How are you? How has your day been so far? Been good?

tonyfish58

Hello hope you are having a good day

Please post some of the contradictions to see if we can sort them out. It may be that the issue has not been fully discussed.

We would be more than happy to follow up on them

Regards Tony