Napkin

I just learned that women are not allowed in the supreme leadership of Baha'i faith??????? After all that talk about equality between men and women, now this???? are you serious?

Timothy248

I believe equality is an example of a spiritual virtue to humanity that should be balanced rather than absolute, but is often taught as absolute for simplicity or out of ignorance.

Men and women are different in more ways than just physical, if we deny this and don't let it factor into our decisions appropriately aren't we being ignorant and denying the love of unified diversity set in motion by the creator?

Arkansan Seeker

As someone who is seeking and learning more and more about the Baha'i faith, this surprises me also. The equality of men and women seems to be stressed so much. As a woman, I obviously appreciate the idea that men and women should be treated equally with the realization that men and women are different in many ways; however, why are women not allowed in the supreme leadership? Can someone please explain this to Napkin and myself?

Noexalt

This is what I think is the best evidence of a lack of sexist reason for the exclusion of women.

With regard to the status of women, the important point for Bahá'ís to remember is that in the face of the categorical pronouncements in Bahá'í Scripture establishing the equality of men and women, the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice does not constitute evidence of the superiority of men over women. It must also be borne in mind that women are not excluded from any other international institution of the Faith. They are found among the ranks of the Hands of the Cause. They serve as members of the International Teaching Center and as Continental Counsellors. And, there is nothing in the text to preclude the participation of women in such future international bodies as the Supreme Tribunal.


Though at the present time, it may be difficult for the believers to appreciate the reason for the circumscription of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men, we call upon the friends to remain assured by the Master's promise that clarity of understanding will be achieved in due course. The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh will aid them and the institutions of His World Order to see the realization of every principle ordained by His unerring Pen, including the equality of men and women, as expounded in the Writings of the Cause.

(The Universal House of Justice, 1988 May 31, Women and UHJ Membership)

Noexalt

Secondly, the Writings have stated that one day we will learn and know what the real reason is for this exclusion, however we do know that it has nothing to do with any inherent superiority of men.

When people try to talk about male qualities, female qualities, male roles, female roles, it's just a bunch of sexist hooey that they are trying to put a pretty package to try to make sense out of this.

My personal theory, which is my own personal viewpoint is that I think that the fact that the UHJ is all male is a strategic façade. It's a guise, a false front. This has to do with the fact that in many parts of the world, the sexism is so bad that a women in a leadership position would never receive the respect of authority over men, in fact they could be killed for even considering such a thing. This means that the UHJ would not be seen as any kind of authority from these particular cultures. As Baha'is, our job is to eliminate such ideas, but it would be very difficult to do if some cultures do not see your organization as being authoritative to begin with. I personally think that having all men on the UHJ is symbolic only. There is no substantive reason for it other than cultural perceptions.

If the UHJ was all women, and only all women, I bet the more "progressive" cultures would still second guess its authority. I can hear it now "Isn't your religion run by a bunch of women? Oh yes, what's with all those women in your religion, are they your bosses, do you have to answer to them?" It would be considered a little bit too new agey-freaky-hippie-airy.

In fairness, I do think that many countries would be fine with men and women both on the UHJ, and I do believe that if this were a perfect world, women could be on the UHJ, but I just don't think the world is there yet.

That is my own personal theory only.

So much of what we associate with leadership and authority is symbolic, and those symbols vary across different cultures. Trying to find the substance of what makes someone or something authoritative is painstakingly difficult. For example, when Clinton ran for office, it was a big huge deal that he never served in the Military, Bush's military record was sketchy, Now we have candidates from both parties, neither of which served in the military.

Napkin

So you are saying women are inferior by nature and cannot lead.....and that is not being ignorant?

Napkin

That quote s logically hypocritical. Let me translate it for you:
Women are great and capable, but we'll stop just short of giving them full equal rights. Now just stop worrying about it as the master is all about equality.

That quote works if you are the "believe all you hear" type.
The real meaning of the quote is: we tell women they are equal but the truth is the exact opposite. Just wont worry about why...

And this came for a guy who had 4 wives, correct?

Noexalt

Of course, I can see why anyone would come to that conclusion. Baha'is truly don't do enough to promote the equality of the sexes. Sometimes it turns into a conversation about how women and men are different. The sad part is, we haven't really proven to the world that we truly believe in the equality of the sexes.

Beware, O people of Baha, lest ye walk in the ways of them whose words differ from their deeds. Strive that ye may be enabled to manifest to the peoples of the earth the signs of God, and to mirror forth His commandments. Let your acts be a guide unto all mankind, for the professions of most men, be they high or low, differ from their conduct. It is through your deeds that ye can distinguish yourselves from others.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 305)

Napkin

It can never be proven that Baha'is believe in equality of gender when they forbid women from leading. And you can not allow women to lead, because your prophet said so and his word cannot be changed. What Baha'i's can do, however, is stop being hypocritical and stop running on the equality agenda.

I wonder how many people leave the faith after they learn the religion that screams equality, does not allow women to lead.

Noexalt

I wonder if anyone ever looks at the reasons why people leave the Faith anyway...it would be a great source of feedback.

"I left the Faith because there is too much emphasis on Equality" - said no one ever

Napkin

No one will ever look into that but if you read up online, there are a zillion sites with ex Baha'is explaining why they left. Of course Baha'is are warned not to visit those sites....hear what they have to say and you might leave too

I think the equality of gender is a very good question and it needs to be asked....the answer they gave us was to just hang in there? one day you'll know why women can not lead? r u kidding me? do they think we are idiots?

And this is a guy with 4 wives. Having multiple partners is not an old or new idea. Lots of men today have multiple girlfriends. We all know what type of guys they are

Napkin

How about I left the faith because while they appear to place too much emphasis on equality, women are not allowed to lead and gays are considered diseased.

Fadl

I guess we are guilty, napkin. Women can't serve on the supreme body. Women are given priority over men for education. Only woman give birth to children. Women can wear both dresses and trousers, whereas men are expected to wear trousers. We could go on and on about the inequalities between men and women in the world and in this faith. Why all the inequality? When will people realize that men and women are exactly the same?? Oh, wait a minute! Our teachings don't say men and women are the same, they say they are equal. I guess that's different then.

Napkin

OMG women are given priority over men when it comes to education? what kind of sexist nonsense is that??!! where is equality in that??!!

So you people believe we should not have a woman US president?! What about a black president? what do your teaching say about that?

so in a bahai world, a bunch of educated women would be governed by uneducated men? genius!

Noexalt

Certainly that has been said.

Anis

On the day the bird of humanity flew its wings, Tahirih uplifted her veil and revealed her face before a crowd of a thousand steadfast followers. In a single motion, discord struck between them and the ancient dark satisfied their lust for violence. Some ran, others renounced their belief in the new faith, one man slit his own throat in fear, and others unsheathed their swords and tried to kill her. This is no laughing matter!

He tells us, 'The world is but one country, and mankind its citizens', do we each and all immediately renounce our belongings for the poor and needy in far distant lands? In such a society that is spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt, such an act would cause more physical strain on the believers and achieve little effect. This is no longer the Heroic Age, we are in the era of academics and global movement efficiency. The Faith desires an audience, what is there to show kindness if the world does not desire the Faith?

Then He tells us, 'The world of humanity has two wings; one is woman and the other man.' Does this instruct that all women and men are physically the same, that both have the same parts, both have the same gene faculty, both have the same mental and physical tendencies? How evidently false is such a supposition! Tahirih abolished the differences of men and women over a hundred years ago. What you are suggesting will not only cause sacrifice amongst the believers, but vein-sacrifice as well! The human race has barely passed its state of infancy, and there are still too many of those who, after knowing that the faith employs equality, will immediately turn a blind eye. Is this Baha'i taught to throw the young bird off the nest of its high tree when it knows not how to fly?

Evidently there is a new veil, but this veil is no longer on the woman, it now has shrouded the eyes of most men, the Mystery of God will soon be clear. 'Rest ye assured! Ere long the days shall come when the men addressing the women, shall say: 'Blessed are ye! Blessed are ye! Verily ye are worthy of every gift. Verily ye deserve to adorn your heads with the crown of everlasting glory, because in sciences and arts, in virtues and perfections ye shall become equal to men, and as regards tenderness of heart and the abundance of mercy and sympathy ye are superior.'

I am also aware of your post here, might I advise that your recurring purpose here, that in attempting to make light of the faith, you have insulted naught but yourself. Perhaps that is not what you intended. If this has indeed caused you to leave the faith, then I am sorry but this character must be rectified, for this is flagrant ignorance and no else; that in no other organised institution in the world will you find more devoted attention on the matter, and the perfect balance between equality and equity. My prayer for you is that you will acquire added strength and the daily attributes of Him at the break of every morn.

Truthseeker96

Well i feel a little left behind, i have not been on here in awhile and last time i was here napkin was just questioning the faith. Now napkin seems bent to turn everyone against it, sure i understand leaving a faith they dont agree with but usually people just pack up and leave not stay around to try to find any , even the slightest, counter-diction in the faith. To me its seems that you were hurt or feel personally offended by this faith. But anyways although i am still young i dont think equality has to mean identical on both sides . I mean 2+3=10-5 both equaling 5 but not the same way in the end they are equal and in the end of our lives we will be equal in the eyes of God. Well thats what i believe anyways and i did not really get this anywhere from the Scripture. Anyways i hope this forum returns back to its normal self when i joined , when there was no arguing and everything was informative and not bias.

Napkin

Anis, I'm sorry I cannot read your post. Can you rephrase that using normal English and not try to sound like youre quoting the bible? In other words, oh kind Anis, thou shalt rephraseth thy post so those who have not neighed onto him migh understandeth. You are the greates, the omnipotent, and just darn awesome

"that in no other organised institution in the world will you find more devoted attention" What youre saying is, in this way, Baha'is are above all other religions....nice Anis!

" My prayer for you is that you will acquire added strength and the daily attributes of Him at the break of every morn. " You just accused me of being gay? lol

Fadl

I will translate it for you into language you might understand:

It's like, you know, there be a lot of facts and stuff that you pretend ain't out there and stuff so that you can sound like, you know, that you're all that and make the faith look false and stuff when you just making stuff up without thinking or knowing things first and stuff.

Napkin

lol

Why u making fun of black people??

Fadl

Making fun of black people? That's a rather random thing to say. How can I have any idea what color you are and why would I care?

Napkin

It was a joke, never mind

LordOfGoblins

thats a good point fadl..

LordOfGoblins

nice too see you back. You were that young girl having trouble with your dad right?
how is that going??

Anis

Actually it continues, '... devoted attention on the matter', though of course, if one rips a single dinky quote from all context, it sounds as if I'm claiming absolute authority. Whereas, I am only claiming knowledge specific to the subject at hand; Baha'is in Iran are risking their lives and wellbeing on a daily basis to uphold their belief, and by extension, support in the equality of genders.

Nonetheless, what do you mean by 'all other religions', are religions not one?

I see you are a fan of non-sequiturs? Sorry, I forgot to bring my piano

Otherwise, you may quote me where I explicitly made such claim, you may also quote me from a post in another thread where I even remotely implied such assumption.

If you are claiming to be gay, then so you are a gay. If you are claiming to be a world citizen, then so you are a world citizen. If you are claiming that all of humanity are world citizens, then so you may be Baha'i.

Yet another false assumption here that I am trying to replicate Biblical English whereas in fact, I employ post-classic to modern English diction. Nor am I claiming superior intellect on the matter, and merely supplied simple quotes from the Writings to sustain my points.

How then can I even begin to converse with someone who holds such preconceptions of me? Will to consultation, practice sophistication and wordliness, and come back to your senses If you are not willing to understand my simple diction, how is it that you can even begin to make such claims about the goal of the Faith, when the language of the Writings are far more deeper and knowledgeable to my own?

Kind regards.

Timothy248

I don't believe woman are inferior, if I believed that I would be ignoring all the ways that women are better than men. Men are generally better at certain things, such as being leaders, however woman are generally better at certain things as well such as being emotionally compassionate. How can these things be considered a construction of ignorance when they are so obvious. There are exceptions to the rule, but we would be deluded to claim that that the spirit of every man and woman is identical by default and that no general patterns exist, as the mainstream mind of our society believes.

Equality is a great virtue of society, but it can only be expressed within reason, when matters of god are hindered by equality it must be put aside.

Iconodule

No they don't, but that says nothing as to the ontological value of the womane within such a faith. The death of a woman in bahai is just as wrong as teh death of a man. The same principle exists within all religions. men and women are not equal, they have different roles, but both are equal in the sense they are worth exactly the same.

Napkin

"...Will to consultation, practice sophistication and wordliness, and come back to your senses If you are not willing to understand my simple diction, how is it that you can even begin to make such claims about the goal of the Faith, when the language of the Writings are far more deeper and knowledgeable to my own?"

haha I love this. Using big words does not make up for bad grammar. The only thing I learned from Baha'i is that Persians are awesome funny people. You do realize your word choice simply screams ESL? That's totally cool though. Your posts make me smile and you sound like a very nice person. I'm just gonna guess you were born Baha'i and never knew any other way? I'm not foolish enough to ask you the same thing....how can someone with bad grammar make any claims about the goal of the faith?

Napkin

Timothy wrote: "Men are generally better at certain things, such as being leaders, however woman are generally better at certain things as well such as being emotionally compassionate"

That's exactly the kind of sexist nonsense modern countries look down upon. All u r saying is women are too emotional too lead. Nonsense! We're going to have an awesome woman president and she'll put the country on the right track better than any previous leader. I suspect sexist people will continue their crazy oppressive views.....But I'm sure you don't see your views as oppressive. I'd guess you are fixed on believing men are leaders and women are so cute and emotional, they're better off just holding babies.

LordOfGoblins

Napkin. If you try to be too liberal you are just as harmful.
THe right way is moderation. Men and women are not identical but a femenist would want pure absolute equality sticking to the literal meaning. The idea that we must be absolutely liberal in saying men and women are identical is just as bad. What if we required women to do hard labour like men in an extreme situation like on a desert island. Some of the women couldnt do it as well because they are not conditioned to do so. Now im not saying all women couldnt. Nor are we saying all men are not as compassionate.
So you see, a totally liberal view would actually be demanding that women work physical jobs on the desert island just like the men do which is actually more contrary to wisdom and more in line with a philosphy of stupidity.

LordOfGoblins

by the way the idea men are better at being leaders is debatable. It depends on the istuation id say...Im very happy with our female priminster here in Aus

Napkin

Sorry but dead wrong. Women are designed to endure more physical pain than men. In the desert, a man would die first. It is not liberal to claim men and women are equal....specially on a forum run by people who's religion screams equality. Men and women are 100% equal! the only difference is one single body part. Why cant you people just look passed that one single body part? Just like those who can't look passed one's skin color!

the journal of Psychosomatic Medicine says women can endure more pain than men. pls read for yourself
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_tolerance

LordOfGoblins

what your saying is debatable. Perhaps you can back it up with science but your view wouldnt be supported by islamic history i can assure you or culteral history.
But since you think it is your job to find a loophole, how about this.
The men have to climb trees to find the coconuts or go and hunt dangerous animals with spears?
Are you telling me womans bodies are as effecient as men say to hunt a dangerous animal like a buffelo.
Now what your saying is contradicting culteral history. Look any primitive culter and the evidence contradicts you. Its more than just a difference of sexual organs...
You are incorrect. I think pyschologists would tell you the female and male brains operate differently as well.
You are totally rejecting all pyschological theory with your sweeping statements that people have done years of studies to compile...

LordOfGoblins

Hold on. A man would die first?
THen you are throwing away the idea of equality that you have been so determined to support with this post! LOl. Probably something which you didnt mean to do but so eager to prove me wrong that you accidently shot yourself in the foot. So the woman wins in the desert and equality is now disproved. Thanks Napkin.

Napkin

Anytime baby
So why doesn't Baha'i let women lead then? They are more compassionate as someone here mentioned, AND they are physically superior.

LordOfGoblins

well i dont know. Maybe using your logic its to make men feel better about being so useless..

Essence of GOD

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napkin [W]omen are given priority over men when it comes to education? what kind of sexist nonsense is that??!! where is equality in that??!!

If you actually bothered to read our scriptures, you would discover that this is because women are the initial educators of both males and females.

Quote:

[Women] are more compassionate as someone here mentioned.

What you overlook is that the role of the House of Justice is not compassion.

Quote:

So you people believe we should not have a woman US president?! What about a black president? ... so in a bahai world, a bunch of educated women would be governed by uneducated men?

Well, I'll grant you this: you're certainly expert at spouting nonsense!

BTW, Baha'u'llah had three wives, not four. And He married all of them BEFORE He became a Divine Messenger and founded the Baha'i Faith! Yet again, a little reading would have made this clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anis ... in no other organised institution in the world will you find more devoted attention on the matter....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napkin What youre saying is, in this way, Baha'is are above all other religions....

Yet more nonsense!

Saying no one else is more devoted IN NO WAY implies we're better than anyone else!: We might have millions of equals in this.

After all, first place need not be exclusive.

Bruce

Napkin

Thank you Bruce,

How wrong of me to think mom and dad both should educate the children.
So Baha'ullah had 3 wives, not 4.....I was WAYYYY off. Now I see the light....He had three wives BEFORE he wrote a book about marriage in which he tells us to have no more than 2 wives. 2 sounds like a nice round number. He had 3, most people have just one, lets just meet in the middle and settle on 2 They can both raise the kids, while the uneducated men lead. Now that's some good old fashioned equality.

Magi728

Don't Forget, When Written There was No Equality of Men and Woman, It was Stated so that the Truth of this Matter would Progress as the Heart of Believer Accepted this Truth.

Clinging to the Material Laws, And Not to the Awakened Heart With-in, Will Always Bring Forth Division.


With Love,



Magi.......