Timothy248

We haven't been going for a long time but last week we went to a baptist church in the area and it the people were lovely, however I felt quit awkward because they focused so strongly on the trinity, referring to Jesus as god in their music and preaching. This morning she wanted to go again, at first I said I'd only drop her off but she was upset so I went. When we got their I felt so awkward about the situation that I left her by herself and came home, which upset her again.

What should I do? What would you do?

Ali

Who is she?

Noexalt

I say get to the root of why you feel awkward. If this is a girl you want to spend your life with, you might want to prepare for the fact that you will always be two different Faiths. Church is a family affair, that's just as important as the Faith itself.

Timothy248

My fiancee Laura.

Ali

In that case, I wouldn't be frustrated to accompany my fiancee to a trinitarian church. I know that the Trinity is a blasphemous concept but your intention is to please your future wife, not Trinitarianism. Remember that your intention is what matters most. When the Bab uttered, "I am God", people thought that He was equating himself with God but the Bab's intention was to notify the people that He was the portal to God Himself.

Fadl

Dear friend,


I wouldn't worry about that too much, and it is wonderful to go to church with a loved one for the sake of unity and fellowship with a loved one. There is really no problem with Jesus "being God" if you consider what Baha'u'llah has revealed on the matter in the Iqan:

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world."

So you see, in the sense above, Jesus is God for us as well. That this church may not understand it in this way is OK, isn't it? After all, we simply arrive at a different understanding about what is essentially the same expression of the divine.


Cheers

Timothy248

Thanks Fadl, I will meditate on this quote from Baha'u'llah.

Timothy248

I see now what Baha'u'llah means, he is a god in that he has high authority and influence. Many thanks, I won't have a problem going to church with her now.

Essence of GOD

its only awkward when we dont show compassion, tolerance, and understanding towards other people and the situation they are in at that point in their lives.

when i was in army, i went to a jewish church, then a protestant church right after the jewish one every sunday. and loved it. sure i didn't agree on some subjects, but the spirit of unity in worship was pleasant to me.

Timothy248

Noexalt the source of my awkwardness was not participating in songs out of principle as they referred to Jesus as god, and dislike of potential conflict that will arise when my beliefs surface.

However now that I understand how Jesus can be called god in a pure way I won't mind participating in the songs, and the potential conflict I'll deal with for the sake of my fiancee.

Essense of God, I agree that we should be tolerant, compassionate, and understanding towards others, I was being far to sensitive towards my own issues and not caring strongly enough about my fiancee.

Thanks for the advice all. You have prevented a major issue manifesting in our relationship.

Iconodule

Thats just skirting the issue and decieving those who would say he is God ontologically. Christianity and its theology is clear on this point. Christ is totally God, of the same substance with the father. So yes there is a problem for the bahai as he cannot say that. He cannot confess what Christians confess.

And it should be said that if you were to worship in that baptist church you would not be worshipping the God of your fiancee. You two shouldn't be together because Christianity and bahai cannot co operate, they are seperate and will and shall always remain as such. Also you need to consider that you according to your religion are lowering yourself by associating with someone less than human (sura 98).

Iconodule

Except that isn't the intent of the songs. You are falsely participating in something that will very much give people the wrong impression. I don't like baptists and their theology but at least they understand basic Christology and you participating in that is a spit in their face. It is disrespectful and dishonest.

LordOfGoblins

Just go and tolerate their nonsense. It will mean a lot to her and you are not sinning...
all the best she sounds like a sweet woman..

Iconodule

So basically your telling him to accept his fiance's nonsensical views. Do you think she is nonsensical then? Sweet but dumb in otherwords.

LordOfGoblins

thats right and i used to go to a Christian school and in the choir we sung all their hyms and whatnot. Maybe I dont agree absolutely with every lyric does that mean i get up and walk out?

LordOfGoblins

i didnt say that. Everyone has their own opinion... you can accept what someone says without agreeing to it all the time. Its called 'getting along'..

Iconodule

You said they are nonsensical. She is obviously a trinitarian believing Christian. She is apart of that congregation which you called nonsensical. Whats another word for nonsensical? Stupid. You are essentially saying they are stupid, cannot think and you should just be nice to them.

LordOfGoblins

if someone has an ignorant notion that is justification to be mean to that person? Is that your philosophy??

Iconodule

To you, that seems to be the case. Afterall you called Tim's fiance nonsensical, Stupid.

LordOfGoblins

the opposite is true. I said tolerate it and she seems sweet. Stop acting like a troll.

LordOfGoblins

yes the trinity is a nonsense notion according to my opinion. Am i allowed to have an opinion without being considered that I treat people meanly?
Remember I said tolerate it and go cos he loves her and she seems sweet. You are just talking garbage as usual..

Iconodule

You said the people themselves were nonsensical. As for the trinity, it could hardly be said to be nonsensical. Only that most bahais, muslims, jews and the like don't want to understand it. THe concept is logically coherrent even if you reject it.

LordOfGoblins

no i didnt. I said put up with their nonsense. That could mean their singing or their traditions or whatever.
THe Bahais understand the trinity. Its not hard to understand.

Iconodule

No the bahais dont understand the trinity. perhaps because of their own nature they refuse to allow the grace of God explain it. But explain the trinity. And before you do. I want you to do it charitably, explain and show a level of comprehension that a Christian world.

LordOfGoblins

God is three persons in one body or one union. Jesus is God, the father is God and the holy Ghost is God. Three entities or bodies each being God in a 'tri-unity' that is God...

Something like that more or less..

Bahais would say God is just God but that is going offtopic..

Iconodule

Now, contrast that with modalism. then contrast that with PAtripassionism.

LordOfGoblins

it doesnt really matter. The fact is this. You are claiming knowledge of things you have no comprehension of, just like the preists of Nicea did..

Iconodule

The fact that you refuse to actually contrast the trinity, shows you don't comprehend it. You don't comprehend I imagine, the difference between modalism and trinity, patripassionism and trinity. You probably dont know what those are.

LordOfGoblins

so the fact that I dont know those other non-cannon definitions which the church (your church) rejects means i dont understand the trinity...
lol great argument..

Iconodule

You don't. Because I garuntee you, if we were to talk about the trinity you would confuse the trinity with these ideas and you would not know it. So, in order to demonstrate that point, demonstrate how the tirnity is nonsensical.

LordOfGoblins

go read abdul'Bahas explanation. im not derailing this thread with my arguments...

Iconodule

He doesn't explain why the trinity is nonsensical, he assumes that from the begining and seeks to re-imagine the trinity and basically redefine it.

LordOfGoblins

You dont get it. When talking about God there is no way to claim knowledge of how it works unless you are a prophet and even the prophets admit they dont know. Abdul'Baha knew enough of the divine system to know it was illogical. I can see its illogical because it categorises into human 'objects' or distinctions an infiniate reality that is beyond categories and distinctions and systems (like that diagram explaining what god is). Abdul'Baha explains that. im not derailing this thread with you, this is my last post on the trinity here. You want to continue revive an old thread trinity thread..

Iconodule

So by appealing an authority I do not consider legitimate you hope to convince me it's illogical? erm no. Now Orthodox Christianity has a long history of negative theology in regaurds to God, that it is best to describe God as he is not, that is because he is totally ineffeble. But we also realise that a God completely non understandable is a God one cannot have comomunion. Thus we understand God partially and the trinity is one aspect of that.

It is not illogical, nor have you made a convincing argument that it is.

LordOfGoblins

as if i give a stuff about convincing you of anything at this point of 100 00 posts already been given on the trinity in earlier threads which you were a part of mind you. My hope is obviously just not to derail the thread..

Timothy248

Indocule, Christians have constructed a twisted logic system that is almost unbreakable, and you have been trapped within it. The problem is that it's delusional and as a result leads to suffering. Ultimately we must choose what to believe with the guidance of love, no human amount of reason and logic will win here.

LordOfGoblins

anything that attempts to picture God by a human diagram is going to be an idle fancy. Any image is a product of human imagination..
If such an image really was the key to understanding God then why not make it available in earlier revelations?

GenuineSeeker

He is a troll. If your intention is not to derail a thread, or contribute to derailing it, might I suggest that you not converse with him?

All of his posts are exactly the same: The Baha'i Faith is a false religion and trinitarian Christianity is the truth and the only way to God. He is not here to learn. He is here to scare people off from the Faith.

It is very difficult to argue with yourself, and he will soon lose interest if he is not being fed.

Iconodule

Unitarianism is just as much an attempt to explain God, that is he is One person and one substance of divinity within this modalistic framework. Again if you make god totally beyond comprehension you have a God you cannot possibly worship as you cannot knwo this God.

God of course for the Christian, is totally boundless, ineffeble, inconceivable and other verbs which can be applied of the like describption. Now as for images, The divinity God cannot be depicted. No one says it can.

Iconodule

If you want to bring to it there, then by all means do it. But dont put blame of derailing on me, whenever you respond to me you continue this conversation whether you want to admit it or not. But thats all bahai can do, blame others. Oh are yu even bahai anymore?