eye

@Noexalt: thank you for revealing my ignorance. I had misinterpreted what is met by our duty being to raising a child to recognize The Faith, as a duty on us to reproduce. It should have been quiet obvious to me...I now understand it as meaning that if we have children they should recognize God, which in my opinion isn't something you need to try to do if you are living by example.

Anyways back to the gay thing. I guess if you truly love another man, then that's fine...We are allowed to love another man/woman (same gender) for who they are...but sex is still not allowed, as it is with straight people. The main difference here is that gay marriage is not allowed in The Faith yet (i think). In my personal opinion if there were a very very large amount of gay people it would be allowed in The Faith under the same law as straight marriages. I believe one of the reasons it's not allowed is simply unity, promote the majority, instead of allowing 'seperation' even if it's at a non-nonsensical level (the separation between homo/hetero), but unfortunately human kind doesn't recognize superficial often...most of the time ;( -by superficial i mean recognizing that something as it is, if i am still confusing: the superficial mental impact of 'gay' i would simple say the stereotype and the tendancy of people to pre-judge (hence stereotype) based on that, thereby resulting in disunity.

Please let me know if i'm making sense on that side. Thank you for increasing my knowledge of The Faith and myself with your post.

regards
eye

Yeshua

I am interested in the answers on this forum, given that I am not strictly "heterosexual". I am in fact asexual.

So I wonder - is there something wrong with me as well? I am a 20 year old asexual virgin who is (as far as I can tell) rather attractive, has been flirted with and even pursued by women but has never had the slightest bit of attraction to either gender.

Do I need psychological "fixing" as well then? I don't see myself as abnormal. I didn't choose not to be sexually attracted. And I'm not sexually active at all so surely there is nothing wrong in my tranquil chastity and celibacy. At first I thought I was a late bloomer, that my utter disinterest in sex and either genders would change and I would happily start dating. It never did. Girls started to wonder whether I was gay because I rejected their advances. They probably still think I am, since I have never told anyone about my asexuality - although the absence of "boyfriends" has been noted as well, such that many are perplexed. Apparently they think I'm "saving myself". They'll have to wait a long time!

For the record I am perfectly happy the way I am and am at peace with my sexuality (Or ah lack thereof ).

I am awaiting brother Fadl's reply with interest because we have discussed celibacy before, however I feel a kind of relief in "outing" myself. I am what I am

Noexalt

You are welcome, but please tell me that I didn't say anything to make you feel low. I am very sensitive to that and If I said anything I'd like to know.

This is interesting to me. I often think along these terms as well. I'm sure if gay marriage were allowed in the Baha'i Faith that those many around the world in more conservative countries would have very low respect for the faith, as, in their eyes, it would no longer be considered as promoting morality. While I disagree strongly with their view, right now the situation is such that it may be best to stay as conservative as possible for the sake of the reputation of the Faith, regardless of the superficial basis.

At the same time the UHJ does tell us to move forward in promoting gay rights and to free ourselves from discrimination and prejudice toward homosexuals.

This is also similar to me as to why there are no women on the UHJ. My personal opinion is that it is superficial, and it's all men, so that the other more conservative cultures in the world can see the Faith as having some authority. It's a symbolic gesture, with no real substantial basis. It's a way to remove a barrier to others.

eye

No i am not offended at all.

@Yeshua: personally I do not think there is anything wrong with being asexual, i don't really understand how but...I think you're lucky lol!

Yeshua

Thank you so much!

I don't really know about "lucky" its just the way I am. Its me.

Noexalt

Yeshua is blessed with a gift from God. Wanna trade yeshua?

Yeshua

Bless you brother/sister Noexalt I would gladly trade if it would ease any burden. I hope that you don't find your sexuality to be a burden for you. as 'trade' might imply. Please don't consider it to be a burden. There is a reason why you are what you are.

I firmly believe that homosexuality can be a blessing as well. Even if you adhere to a religion (such as mine own) which embraces homosexuality as the way some human beings are born and intended by God but teaches that sex must be between a man and a woman, perhaps homosexuality exists to forge greater romantic but non-sexual bonds between members of the same gender. I hope that doesn't offend, I am asexual so I'm sorry if I underestimate the importance of "sexual contact", I realize that for sexual people it is of great importance to be close to a person in that intimate way. Just be happy to be the person you are, the one God meant you to be. That's what my sexuality (can I call it that lol?) has taught me.

There is this great quote by Catherine of Siena:


And this quote from the Bible. I often meditate on it using the Lectio Divina technique:


One thing I know is that you must never be ashamed to be the person you are, warts and all. You are the person God meant and wanted you to be. We all existed before our creation in the Mind of God, as an "idea" of God. As Pope Benedict XVI once noted:



The Catholic mystic Blessed Henry Suso explained this very well:




The most beautiful description of how we existed eternally before our creation as a thought in the Mind of God, with the very same attributes we have now, is Psalm 139:

Fadl

Yeshua my friend,

If the word abnormal has meaning of something that is not normal, then clearly being asexual is abnormal. However, I think this an abnormality that some people would probably pray for! Talk about a life of tranquility and peace!

I won't say you need help or not, maybe it will change of its own, but even if it doesn't, and you are content, there is no reason to. Obviously celibacy is a chaste and acceptable path in our faith, second only to chaste marriage, and second only because it won't bear the fruit of another soul who might remember God, and know and love him.

I wouldn't worry about this too much, my friend. On the other hand, you may consider seeing a physician just for an over all check up because maybe your condition is based up something that could affect you in more important ways than sexuality so I think you should rule this out.

Cheers

Zhang

Yeshua, you continue to be an inspiration with each passing day. Never stop being you.

Now as for asexuality is concerned, there is surprisingly little evidence. I went through what journals I could while I was on campus, and the ones I keep at home, and almost no one has touched the subject. It seems that it affects 1% of the human population, and 3% of the animal population (of a study of rams xD). Some researches believe that it is a result of the hypothalamus being distinctly different from another heterosexual of the same gender, but I saw no brain scans attached so it could be a lie for all I know.

I will keep researching!

LordOfGoblins

WOW!!
i guess your not perfect afterall then

LordOfGoblins

AMen!!!

Iconodule

Homosexuality goes against the ordered things, it is a perversion and soemthing which God in creating the world did not cause. This is seen all throughout the scripture, from the law of moses, to the rulings of the apostles that homosexuality is something someone should not do.

Also Yeshua, I think it is wrong to suggest from a Christian worldview that God caused someone to be homosexual. Rather it seems that the fall of mankind had its consequences and homosexuality, a predisposition in our nature is what causes that attraction.

As for what sirach says, heres the actual verse.
Homosexuality goes against the ordered things, it is a perversion and soemthing which God in creating the world did not cause. This is seen all throughout the scripture, from the law of moses, to the rulings of the apostles that homosexuality is something someone should not do.

Also Yeshua, I think it is wrong to suggest from a Christian worldview that God caused someone to be homosexual. Rather it seems that the fall of mankind had its consequences and homosexuality, a predisposition in our nature is what causes that attraction.

Napkin

can you provide sources for those studies Ali?

Ali

Twin Studies: What Do They Show?

This is one example of such a study although it found slightly different results possibly due to less participants.

Ali

The Importance of Twin Studies

Here is another one. I realize that my previous link cited above is biased since it is Christian-based. I can't find the exact study I've read in my psychology textbook. Neverthless, there are many studies like the one summarized in the link (cited above) which indicate that both nurture and nature determine homosexuality.

Yeshua

Thank you brother Zhang!

I would actually be most pleased to hear of any research that is available on people such as myself. It has been poorly studied in the journals, as opposed to homosexuality and bisexuality, even though it does exist.

I think one of the reasons is the highly sexually charged nature of modern Western society. For a man particularly to be non-sexual is tantamount to an act of heresy. Sex is everywhere, images on the TV, the porn industry etc. to this end people just assume that everyone must be innately sexual and wish to express that sexuality through the act of intercourse.

I also think that there are more asexuals out there than "declare" themselves. Many people, particularly men, might be uncomfortable with telling other men about their lack of sexual interest.

Apparently most asexuals lead normal lives otherwise, either ending up single or marrying on a more emotional and personal basis rather than sexual attraction, and so slip beneath the "net" so to speak.

So please do keep reading and get back to me! There is a network online of asexuals called "AVEN" (Asexual Visibility...) that you might want to check up.

Yeshua

My dear brother Fadl

Thank you for your message!

I get what you mean. I suppose my asexuality might be "abnormal" in the sense of quantity, ie most people are sexual whether heterosexual or homosexual.

Yes - it does make for a more simple life though than being caught up in and bothered about sexual desires. I can look at men and women without lusting after them ever as sexual objects. I look for the people themselves, whereas my brothers might say, "oh she's so hot" or "what a minger"

So it certainly has its benefits and it makes for a happy virgin whereas most would probably be unhappy because they a sex drive that they feel needs sated and are aroused by beautiful women/men.

Sex just doesn't interest me at all. I just like being the way I am. Its not important to me because I don't experience attraction to either gender and don't need the sensation either (which I did experience as most would in puberty through masturbation, which was born of curiosity rather than attraction).

The asexuality doesn't just extend to simply a lack of attraction, at least in me. I actually don't need sex as an urge like most people probably do. So I probably don't have a "sex drive" per se. I could manually arouse myself by touching that area so there is nothing wrong with me physically, its just that mentally my perfectly functioning sexual system does not "attach" itself to objects and manifest itself in attraction to people. Its completely under my control therefore, and I haven't masturbated since puberty and likely will never again because I don't need too. It would just be a meaningless sensation to me born of selfishness.

I'm just so happy being an asexual virgin. I'm not actually saying "no" to marriage. Its just that I am so very happy on my own because one of the main purposes of marriage (sexual attraction and sex) holds no meaning for me. Companionship is different and who knows? Perhaps I might even meet another asexual woman. I leave it open but right now I'm happy being a virgin and lacking any sexual attraction or impulses whatsoever and I feel that God has created me this way for a reason.

Yeshua

Here is an interesting article from the UK Independent newspaper, from just two over two months ago, on asexuality:

Asexuals

Noexalt

Yes, Yes, I agree. I said that somewhat in jest as it can be difficult to manage the desires, that's all really. My sexuality is a gift from God. This is difficult for many to comprehend, but in the Baha'i Faith, such tests, even ones that are extremely severe are gifts from God. It has motivated me to study the Writings very deeply, and be more understanding of others.

I really like your "style" for lack of a better word on this site. I like the mystical, and the quotes that you put it out. It's very nice.

Thanks for being a brother.

Noexalt

Ali,

The study is interesting. The article...questionable, and the reason I say that is because the article is 20 years old, and the organization that sponsored the article (Exodus International) has changed it's stance on conversion therapy. While in 1992 they were happy to interpret findings to suggest that change is possible, now they abandon such ideas.

Exodus’ Official Position on Reparative or Conversion Therapy | Exodus International

Here is a 60 minutes interview on the same subject.

Ali

[QUOTE=Noexalt;35139]

Thanks for the clip - it was very interesting. Below, there is a link to an academic article from my university's library. You can read it if you want to.

http://www.filedropper.com/1_40

Noexalt

It just takes me to filedropper, no article.

Perhaps give me the name and author of the article, I have access to academic libraries online, so I should be able to find it

Ali

1) Click on the link
2) Click on "Download This File"
3) Type in the characters on the screen for human verification

Anyways, it is called "Can Anyone Tell Me Why I’m Gay? What Research Suggests Regarding The Origins of Sexual Orientation" by William J. Jenkins from Mercer University.

Noexalt

Got it, I read some of it at work today (woopsy!) It looks good, but I'll read more about it later. I like how it lays out the different areas that could be affected to cause homosexuality. This is something I always wondered about, if it actually has more than one cause, or a combination of causes with just the right combination causing it. I would also be curious if anyone would study whether the same patterns 'cause' heterosexuality. It's very interesting because there are 'straight' transvestites, and very feminine heterosexual males. They are rare but possible.

LightSpirit

It is not acceptable in the Baha'i Faith. It is a chosen lifestyle choice and not an innate natural way of life according to Shoghi Effendi. My best friend is gay and I don't let that fact stop me from being friends to one of the most compassionate and caring person I know on the planet. Do I agree with his choice, of course not, but it is his life and the right to choose, God will decide the rest it is not my place to judge.

Zhang

Have you ever talked to your friend about it being a choice? Does he know you think he chooses that lifestyle? If he did I doubt you would be friends...

Noexalt

Wow, this is like finding a rotary phone at an Apple store. Seriously, you still believe that people "choose" to be gay?
I think you better talk to some people and do some research, nobody ever makes such a choice.
Furthermore, please do not associate your personal interpretations and feelings with the Central Figures. I find it helpful when people say "MY PERSONAL OPINION/FEELING IS..." and it is rather harmful when people associate their own beliefs as coming directly from a Central Figure.

Napkin

Then u r not following Baha'i guidelines. As a Baha'i, you are supposed to encourage him to overcome his gay handicap.

mytmouse57

It has all the hallmarks of a dysfunction, by way of fundamental disconnect.

The doctrine of "sexual orientation" is fundamentally flawed, untenable, couched in subjective rationalization and therefore, not actually scientific.

Noexalt

What do you mean by "doctrine"? Regardless of anyone's beliefs on the matter, I can tell you from personal experience a couple things.

1) It's not a choice. Having sex IS a choice, being chaste or celibate is a choice. That "choice" is not specific to homosexuals.
2) No cause has been identified. Neither genetic, biological, or psychological.
While there are many studies going on in all three areas, there is yet no identified "cause(s)", and for that matter, no identified "cure(s).
3) Gays know they're gay whether they have had sexual experiences or not.
4) The Baha'i Writings clearly condemn all forms of discrimination, including discrimination, prejudice and disdain toward homosexuals. Baha'is are encouraged to defend those whose rights are being denied or violated, including homosexuals.

mytmouse57

Several logical problems here.
1) No dysfunction is a choice. I didn't chose to be near-sighted, for example.
2)Not having a cause actually weakens the case for it not being rooted in some sort of pathology. And I'm sure in some cases, it is. Even so, identifying a cause would not make the case for it being "normal" either. Every bio-physical dysfunction has a cause.
3) Of course, a pre-disposistion to homosexual attractions or desires would become apparent, regardless of whether one has had sex. I'm not sure the point you're trying to make here.
4) The writings also clearly say, we are to use intelligence and reason. The case for homosexuality being "normal" is irrational to the core. The faith also clearly does not approve of homosexuality for its followers.

But most importantly, recognizing something as a dysfunction, or even undesirable, does not lead automatically lead to hatred, loathing or discrimination. Nor, again by intelligence and rationality, should it. In fact, hating or fearing somebody because of a dysfunction is about as irrational and un-intelligent as it gets.
So, again, there's no need to frame it in zero-sum terms. There's no reason a Baha'i can't have a moral objection to homosexuality -- and recognize the arguments du jour for it being "normal" as flawed -- and still not love gay people like everybody else.
There's no reason a Baha'i can't join the voices against bullying, or calling gay people horrible names, like "faggot," or standing against things such as discrimination against gays in such areas as employment, housing, freedom from fear, military service and other basic rights.

And there's no reason a Baha'i simply can't mind their own business. I've known numerous openly gay people. It never bothered me one bit. Once again going back to intelligence and reason -- feeling uncomfortable around gay people, or trying to pry into their personal lives -- is irrational.

Noexalt

So, my point was regarding what was meant by "doctrine".

I see doctrine as a series of stances based on ideology (roughly). Word connotations can be just as powerful as their actual definition so I think it's important to understand the "meaning" rather than definition and realize that in this case "doctrine" works both ways so I attempted to dispel any myths (false beliefs) that may influence what can be described as "anti-gay" doctrine. I think you did well separating such beliefs from actual behavior, it is true that there is never any justification for not treating anyone as a full equal despite any real or perceived "dysfunction" they may have.

I would add that a logical and reasonable approach would be to understand that when dealing with issues related to emotions, such as love, attraction, and sexual desire, that logical and reasonable arguments do not change or alter such bents. They are irrational things which many times make no sense whatsoever. (We've all had those relationships).

It's kind of like saying, if the purpose of sex is procreation, than people should only have sex when they actually want to procreate. While I totally support logical and reasonable arguments, even the fictitious Vulcans could not realize it thoroughly.

Lunitik

For me, homosexuality is wrong if it is something which has been gone into because of nervousness or whatever with the opposite sex. I feel many are moving to homosexuality because they are more comfortable knowing the others body, but also because of peer projections. Children are often called gay from an early age and so increasingly believe it to be so the more it is heard. This is very unhealthy, I think.

That said, in some cases, it seems that a male can be born with a female nature and vice versa. I feel that the feminine male and masculine female would be a good match, but feminine male and feminine female would not work. In these cases, I feel homosexuality is valid though, for the feminine male and masculine male energetically are compatible.

Sexuality is intended more as a bond than for reproduction, and this is evidenced by the fact that sexual arousal occurs even when reproduction is not possible - ie, the woman is not ovulating. Also, those who recall their first sexual partners are quite aware of the effectiveness of this, although it is a shame that this gradually fades as one is more sexually active in many cases.

Either way, though, it is not even really something which should affect religious circles, and I do not even understand why this topic is so prevalent. Why do we care so much about what others think, and what others are doing in their lives? Worry more about yourself and allow others to take care of their own lives.

Noexalt

That's a new one to me. I personally never "moved" to homosexuality, it was just something that was realized when I started to mature during puberty. Girls - nothing, Guys - reaction.

In my case, I am not attracted to any female, no matter how male or female they act. With guys however, my attractions vary, to pinpoint what is a "male" characteristic and what is a "female" characteristic, may seem easy enough, but it's more tricky than I think people realize.

Aha! This is a great view and I appreciate it. Many people think that homosexuality is illogical because a child cannot be born of homosexual acts. If sexuality is intended more as a bond, as you said, sexual arousal occurs even when reproduction is not possible, (men don't ovulate at all), then it's clear that while there is a link between sexual activity and procreation, there is no link between sexual DESIRE/ATTRACTION and procreation.

Our attractions and desires are not rooted on logic, reason or reproductive functionality.

My experience being a Baha'i for 22 years, is that somehow the "wrongness" of homosexuality (being or doing) is translated into a behavior of otherness in the Baha'i community. This is a big issue because of the Baha'i emphasis on discrimination, prejudice, and how to treat others. If you stick around on this site long enough, you will see some very interesting views on homosexuality that are far from being in line with the Writings. My own personal understanding of the Writings is that to treat people with a sense of "otherness" is much worse than what goes on in a bedroom. It seems that no one can talk about prejudice, discrimination, etc towards homosexuality without first saying "Homosexuality is wrong", or "Homosexuality is condemned in the Baha'i Teachings". My response, yes, I know, it's clear, can we talk about rights and discrimination? Can we talk about letters from the UHJ about discrimination and the civil rights of homosexuals, and how the UHJ said it would be "entirely appropriate" to come to the aid of homosexuals whose rights are being denied or violated? Usually conversations go dark at that point.

My point is, yes, I'm quite aware of the moral code as it pertains to homosexuality. How about the moral code as it pertains to the responsibility of those who are not gay, pertaining to homosexuality?

Responsibilities on this matter are not exclusive to homosexuals and their behavior.

Napkin

You just said most gays were born that way, how does that prove they can change?

mytmouse57

"Doctrine" might indeed be the wrong word -- "idea" might be a better term.

While emotions have their value, it's also worthy of note, the teachings of the Baha'i Faith seem to caution strongly against getting swept up in them, or being driven by our passions.

Also, the question of whether homosexuality is "normal" must first and foremost consider it from a angle of bio-physical function. Sex is rooted first and foremost in biology. Emotions will be consequential in that regard, and can't be considered a primary underlying determining factor.

As far as procreation is concerned, my thought is this:

Procreation isn't the only reason to have sex, but it is the only reason we have a sex drive, and sex organs to begin with.

In light of that axiom, the idea of sexual orientation fails -- because it tries to cast everything along a relative "spectrum," while totally ignoring the underpinning procreative reason for sexual attraction, desire and body parts.

Ignoring that factor, takes the idea of "sexual orientation" out of the realm of an explanation, and pushes toward being a rationalization.

Arman9999

Napkin - As a Baha'i my view on homosexuality is simple, it's between the individual and God. It is a matter to be resolved in the heart and not through the views and opinions of other human beings. I am in no place to judge whether a gay man or gay woman can marry, can date or what their relations are. In the Baha'i writings the most grievous of sins is backbiting. Gossiping. Not choosing to be gay, or marrying someone of the same sex. It is backbiting. That's what I've personally got to work on.

Be blessed to def! If you're in the So. Cal. area let's kick it.

Arman

jupitermadcat

It's not for me to judge God Loves all It's what you do in this life that matters. deeds not creeds.

smaneck

But what makes us human beings is the fact we are more than our biology.

smaneck

The only place I know of where we are called upon to admonish others is to tell the rich "of the midnight sighing of the poor."

If you really insist on admonishing sinners, I suggest you join the Occupy Wall Street Movement.