Napkin

What are your views on homosexuality?

Ali

Using the theory of evolution, I conclude that homosexuality is an inferior sexual orientation to heterosexuality. If the purpose of our lives is to reproduce, then homosexuals are generally disadvantaged. In my opinion, the list of sexual orientations would appear in the following hierarchical order...

(1) heterosexuality (prefer opposite-sex)
(2) bisexuality (no preference on sex)
(3) homosexuality (prefer same-sex)
(4) pedophilia (prefer children)
(5) zoophilia (prefer animals)
(6) objectophilia (prefer inanimate objects)

Napkin

I thought the purpose of your existence was to Know God?

Ali

I was speaking from an evolutionary perspective. So biologically, our purpose is to reproduce and spiritually, our purpose is to know and worship God.

Napkin

You really believe the sole purpose of your existence is to have sex and make babies? I guess I'm OK with that view as long as you're not producing messed up kids....
Do you have sex only when you want babies?? what are your views on contraceptives? How's your love life? lol

Ali

According to the theory of evolution, the purpose of life (includes human and non-human animals) is to reproduce. This addresses our biological nature. According to the Bahai Faith, the purpose of life (only includes our species) is to know and worship God. This addresses our spiritual nature. There is no contradiction between these two perspectives. These are facts which remain unaffected despite my lifestyle.

Noexalt

And even if there is "something wrong" (bad question by the way, I will elaborate later) with homosexuality. How should you as Baha'i treat homosexuals? Others who sin?

Ali

As a Bahai, I have the duty to politely and intellectually admonish sinners which includes homosexuals. Other than this, I trust that God will judge their actions after death.

Zhang

Sweet, except homosexuality has biological advantages for the species, as I have addressed countless times on infinite many threads. Which is one of the reasons that it is so common (even directly proportional) in animals and humans alike. Maybe for the simple mind it seems very logical to assume that it is not beneficial to the species, but the science clearly suggests otherwise.

Noexalt

Can you show me in the Writings where it says it is the individual Baha'is responsibility to admonish sinners?

O SON OF MAN!
Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Accursed wouldst thou be...

If ye become aware of a sin committed by another, conceal it, that God may conceal your own sin. He, verily, is the Concealer, the Lord of grace abounding.

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 55)

Fadl

I can't respond to this poll. What does wrong mean?

Ali

"Whoso hath inhaled the sweet fragrance of the All-Merciful, and recognized the Source of this utterance, will welcome with his own eyes the shafts of the enemy, that he may establish the truth of the laws of God amongst men" (Aqdas 7)

"We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys" (Aqdas 107)

I feel embarrassed that there are three members who voted homosexuality as moral.

Rani

And..

26. O SON OF BEING!
How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Really, how many people are without sin, or error of any kind?

Ali

Since this is a Bahai forum, what else could "wrong" mean other than being "immoral"?

Noexalt

Thank you Rani.

Noexalt

So you are saying it's immoral to be homosexual?

Ali

Absolutely

"Regarding the question you asked him about one of the believers who seems to be flagrantly a homosexual—although to a certain extent we must be forbearing in the matter of people’s moral conduct because of the terrible deterioration in society in general, this does not mean that we can put up indefinitely with conduct which is disgracing the Cause. This person should have it brought to his attention that such acts are condemned by Bahá’u’lláh, and that he must mend his ways, if necessary consult doctors, and make every effort to overcome this affliction, which is corruptive for him and bad for the Cause. If after a period of probation you do not see an improvement, he should have his voting rights taken away. The Guardian does not think, however, that a Bahá’í body should take it upon itself to denounce him to the Authorities unless his conduct borders on insanity." (Shoghi Effendi, Letter on June 20, 1953, pp. 276)

Noexalt

Thank you for helping make my point perfectly clear

This is in "Messages to Canada" in "Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities" This is for an LSA, not an individual. Individuals, according to writings have no right. LSA's who deals with such issues, this is THEIR role, not yours.

And again, my point (you fell right into my trap, you lose) There is a difference between "being" and doing. It is not immoral to BE a homosexual.

It is important to understand that there is a difference between the Bahá'í attitude towards, on the one hand, the condition of homosexuality and those who are affected by it and, on the ether, the practice of homosexual relations by members of the Bahá'í community.

(The Universal House of Justice, 1995 Sept 11, Homosexuality)

Fadl

To me it is merely abnormal. Is being abnormal wrong or immoral? I'm not so sure. That would partly depend upon whose definition of right and wrong and morality is being applied. I also know that it is forbidden in the Baha'i faith, but I am still not sure how that ties in with your question of morality, Ali.

The Aqdas warns us to not plunge our hands into food (K46). Is it therefore immoral to do so? Sinful? Punishable? It would certainly fall short of the level of refinement and cleanliness that Baha'u'llah would have us follow, and, perhaps, it is even unhealthful. But I don't see everything as right/wrong moral/immoral in the world. Not everything is so simple.

Back biting quenches the life of the soul, and failing to read the writings is unfaithfulness to the covenant, blasphemy is unforgiveable (read Some Answered Questions of 'Abdu'l-baha for explaination on this). All of these things are much more serious in my mind than matters about washing and eating, sexual practices, etc. I guess I view the problem of homosexuality differently that sinfulness or wrongness. To me it is surely merely a practical and based on the necessity of procreation and chaste sexuality. Even heterosexuals must engage in non-hedonistic sexual practices that are monogamous and chaste. So is it wrong or sinful for a man and wife to have oral sex? I don't know, but I know it is not in keeping with Baha'i sexuality.

LordOfGoblins

It is less than ideal. there is no such thing as evil but it is not a trait that should be embraced..

LordOfGoblins

is there something wrong with being a porn star??

Ali

In that case, I humbly agree. I was condemning the overt condition of homosexuality and forgot that its covert condition is alright. Thank you brother.

Fadl

You are right, it is not ideal. But then so much of what we do is not ideal, and none of us as beings are ideal, so that is why the judging part is not so helpful. A lot about the Baha'i way of life is difficult. Fortunately for me, homosexuality is not a challenge I face. Plenty of other things are though, so when it comes to our homosexual brothers and sisters we should not be so harsh. It is something they can't wish away and is a big challenge to them in the Faith. God bless them and strengthen them, I say.

Noexalt

Injustice is also unforgivable. All should take note of this in terms of this particular subject matter.

O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH!
Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man's injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

In terms of sexual practices between a man and his wife.. I suggest you look up the word "Lechery" as well as "Sodomy". ... Verily he is not of Me. While I am certain that everyone here (especially all the guys) is a spotless example of chastity, virginity and fidelity, it might not hurt to look up adultery as well in since it is also part of the "satanic deeds" mentioned here.

Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue.

(From a previously untranslated Tablet) [2]

(The Universal House of Justice, 1993 Jun 05, Homosexuality, p. 3)


I would advise that you be careful with your view about the necessities of procreation and what it means from an evolutionary point of view. Having studied evolution extensively and understanding the term "maladaptive". I would agree that homosexuality could be maladaptive, however, in the eyes of the pure science of it, any issue that could lead to "unsuccessful reproduction" is a maladaptive trait. That includes passing diseases and deformities on to your children, (diabetes? retardation? depression? White skin?) or issues of fertility. This is what some of the racial darwinists, and other such Nazis jump on, suggesting Eugenics (forced sterlization) or abortion when such issues arise.

Noexalt

You are welcome, I may be a little cocky , but I know the Writings in these areas as it has been a necessary survival skill for me in the Baha'i community.

Fadl

Thanks for the quotes, but in your comment you suggest that I look up sodomy and lechery. Why is that? Did something I wrote suggest that I felt these were ok? I wrote that oral sex, as an example, is not in keeping with Baha'i sexuality.

But the quotes you provided are wonderful and provide the fuller spectrum of the teachings. It is not true that the frequently quoted verse from Aqdas about 'boys' is the whole story. Thanks for bringing these.

LordOfGoblins

i agree and didnt think i was being harsh..

Fadl

Brilliant points here.

Noexalt

In this quote here


The oral sex question is a good one. This question has come up a lot during other discussions I have been in. I added the quote and suggested a look up because even I have whizzed past those words in terms of understanding the Baha'i view of sexuality. Sorry if I sounded so self-righteous myself. I do get defensive about such discussions easily, as it personally affects me. That is but one other piece on the road to understanding more about what it's like to be gay...and Baha'i.

Rani

Well said Fadl!

Napkin

I guess you guys are so accustomed to twisted words that simple and direct questions dont make sense to you any more.

If you think being gay is perfectly fine, choose the first option.
If you think there is ANYTHING wrong with being gay, choose the second one.

Fadl

I don't think you came across that way at all, I just worried that I wasn't clear enough or made some sort of slip.

This is a bit OT, but there was an episode of Star Trek (Generations, or Deep Six, not sure which)TV show that I thought was interesting and hard hitting in a metaphorical way about homosexuality. Perhaps you saw it? In a nutshell, there was some alien race that had evolved (or degenerated, depending how you view it) to a place of asexual reproduction for continuing the race. As a result, sexual relations were virtually non-existent and normal beings had no sexual urges or relations whatever. However, ocassionally an individual might be aflicted with sexual feelings and when that happened, it would be treated medically. Basically there was no choice in the matter and any form of sexuality was condemned. Now it happened that the star trek crew encountered one who did have sexual impulse and they tried to intervene and save her from being healed of her sexual impulse. This being wanted to be sexual, and did not want to be saved and it was easy to sympathize with her simply from the point of personal choice and freedom, aside from the fact that we view sexuality as normal. Long story short, the crew didn't save her and she was restored to the asexual ideal of the race. When the crew met her later, she expressed her gladness at being 'cured' and could not empathize with the crew who felt a great injustice had been done to her.

Anyway, I thought it was a great episode that raised a lot of good questions that seem applicable to the homosexuality debate. I don't know if the producers intended it so, and I can't know what their opinion on the controversy was, but it was very interesting nonetheless and would be interested in how you felt about it if you saw it.

Napkin

Sorry I'm not in the mood for reading massive posts....you guys are against oral sex too!!!????

Itena

Looks to me like a false dilemma. But of course, it's a poll, so I guess that's fine.

Fadl

But how can I say if I think anything is 'wrong' with it if you don't define wrong? Is a blue rose 'wrong?' How about a swimming chicken? I think homosexuality is prohibited in the Baha'i religion. I think it is abnormal. But how should I know if it is 'wrong,' if you don't better articulate what you mean by that?

LordOfGoblins

The source of all evil is for man to turn away from his Lord and set his heart on things ungodly.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 156)

eye

The question is not whether this is right/wrong, the question is how does this contributes to personal growth & growth of mankind.

Within this context, I would like to highlight the obvious nature of detachment from 'materials'. By materials i mean anything of this world i.e. can be strictly defined (unlike God). The reason for this simple is: any 'material', be it drugs, computer games, homosexual sex, heterosexual sex, alcohol, even 'materials' which are not deem'd sinful one should be detached from, because they 'busy' the mind with essentially nothing "idle fancies".

When one becomes satisfied, i would dare to say even happy(but not in the true sense, not true-happiness), one tends to stick to that simple way of life. The desire, the longing for truth, which in my opinion is the only thing that keeps me living, becomes but a faint whisper behind veils of nothingness.

Now, out of the context of religion, investigating truth within the context of our own lives is never a bad thing. It leads to progression of every kind (science, internet everything...). I hope everyone sees this statement as obviously as I do, otherwise I'm open to discuss it as I have probably not given it enough proof.

Now i hope i have satisfied my initial question of whether being 'Homosexual' which I would easily replace with 'materials-almost everything' contributes to anything meaningful in ones life.

To comment on Heterosexual vs Homosexuality in particular: having either on one's mind, or as a goal, fantasy, desire...anything, is detrimental to life (as nearly proven). Now when it comes to why Homosexuality is against common logic, which is in essence what religion promotes (in my opinion)-i mean common logic, because as an organism you are:

Denying the very mechanism that has made your evolved body (natural selection), now in-case it hasn't clicked yet: natural selection only occurs via fusion of a male sperm cell and a female egg. So by choosing to not reproduce you are lowering the potential natural selection via mutation for society as a whole, because natural selection tends to create better and better versions of us, for all organisms actually. Who knows if enough people become gay we could be denying a future super race, one that has come to live in harmony with not only our planet but the universe, which I have hope already exists somewhere out-there.

Now I somewhere read a reply saying that "Homosexuality is better for society", now honestly i read some topics on it just now and the only thing i came upon that i think someone could misjudge 'gay' as a solution to world over-population. It may at first seem to be a good solution, but I ask you: isn't there a much better solution? Yes, Don't have sex before marriage. Ok, so maybe someone will suggest that in the meanwhile since that isn't happening it's ok to be gay, but what if every 'gay person' decided to stop caring about their sexual orientation and decided to actively help society and themselves, which as stated earlier is best done with detachment. Problem solved.

Oh one last point: in-case some people say that it's not their fault they were born gay. I ask you, is there that much different from a child who is born an alcoholic involuntarily? The point I'm trying to make is that, no matter how strong your desires to be gay, never let your true goal escape your eyes. Fight it your life if that's how it has to be, everyone has their own valleys to conquer. Although I personally believe that every non-physical characteristic of a person, genetic or not, can be changed through conscious effort until it becomes etched into your subconscious.

Final last point: Sex? get over it. Drugs? just as meaningless...Lets be honest, simple chemicals be it drugs or sex (testosterone, estrogen -the names of the sex-drive hormones, not sure about the female one tho, but the point remains), are controlling your freedom of choice to live-yes mind-control, think MTV!

I hope i have satisfied all the readers, I am open to all questions.

Truly
eye

Noexalt

I did see that episode and remember it well! I wish we could pick up the episode now and see if he/she is now against the "therapy" he/she received.
There was a lot in this episode. He/She seemed a little spaced out after the therapy, so it makes you wonder what went on in the therapy session, and if he/she had sincerely changed.

Recently Exodus International, the Founding Icon of Faith-Based conversion therapy reversed it's position on conversion therapy.
Therapy | Exodus International

Exodus International supports an individual’s right to self-determine as they address their personal struggles related to faith, sexuality and sexual expression. As an organization, we do not subscribe to therapies that make changing sexual orientation a main focus or goal. Our ministry’s objective is to equip the Church to become the primary place where people of faith seek support, refuge and discipleship as they make the decision to live according to Christian principles.

I love the last sentence. It could be a great mission statement for a Baha'i group that wants to promote understanding within the Baha'i community.

So as far as conversion/reparitive therapies go, to me, It's psuedo-science. It's snake oil, hogwash, and shenanigans. While the Baha'i Writings suggest that homosexuality IS amenable to change, that doesn't mean that change is required, that everyone can do it, or that the necessary research and tools are available for such a thing even if you wanted to. Alchemy is also possible in the Baha'i Faith, but don't try that at home...

Is it possible? sure, but I personally believe it's very very rare, in fact, I think some who have "changed" may actually fall into the "tramautic experience" category and can change through basic psycho-therapy. Of course, it's ridiculous to suggest that no one can ever change ever, when has anything on this planet ever been that absolute? Please.

I have met a few Baha'is who have been involved in reparitive therapy, as expected, when asked if they are no longer sexually attracted to the same sex, they avoid the question, and when pressed cannot answer "YES".

Noexalt

Eye,

While I think the Baha'i Writings do talk about a "new race of men" and "carrying forth an ever-advancing civilization", I don't think we can look at it in the the strictest terms of natural selection.

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214)

Reproduction itself is one thing, but it's not enough. Civilization has to be established with "forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth"

In terms of the new race of men,

A sharp distinction between that community and that people must be made, and resolutely and fearlessly upheld, if we wish to give due recognition to the transmuting power of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, in its impact on the lives and standards of those who have chosen to enlist under His banner. Otherwise, the supreme and distinguishing function of His Revelation, which is none other than the calling into being of a new race of men, will remain wholly unrecognized and completely obscured." It is the far-reaching, transformative implications of this distinction which we especially invite you to contemplate.

(The Universal House of Justice, 1988 Dec 29, Individual Rights and Freedoms, p. 1)

Clearly this is a social/spiritual phenomenon and has nothing to do with biology. While interracial marriage is encouraged in the Faith, and great scientists have clearly shown that this is what leads to genetic variation and heightened environmental adaptations, no where in the Baha'i writings has reproduction, interracial marriage, and the advance of civilization been supported for the sake of the survival of our species.

Another area where argument is lacking is in terms of those who are infertile or unable to reproduce for other reasons. I mean, so we lose those genes from the pool as well, so are we constantly running this genetic deficit because of those people as well? What about those who never marry? Should they reproduce anyway? Because of this I'm not sure what you mean by "So by choosing to not reproduce" in the context of this subject matter. I could reproduce, and quite easily, without having heterosexual sex. Oh but, I could also be giving any genetic factors to my offspring that contribute to homosexuality. While no gene has been identified with homosexuality, like you said "you never know", my reproduction could also contribute to a whole plethora of homosexual people who would technically not be able to reproduce.

"Who knows if enough people become gay we could be denying a future super race"

I'm sure you already know this but no one becomes gay intentionally. The future super race you describe in terms of the Baha'i Faith is a race of spiritual and social values, not biological ones.


This may require a hard struggle, but so also can be the struggle of a heterosexual person to control his or her desires. The exercise of self-control in this, as in so very many other aspects of life, has a beneficial effect on the progress of the soul. It should, moreover, be borne in mind that although to be, married is highly desirable, and Bahá'u'lláh has strongly recommended it, it is not the central purpose of life. If a person has to wait a considerable period before finding a spouse, or if ultimately, he or she must remain single, it does not mean that he or she is thereby unable to fulfil his or her life's purpose."

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 365)

Clearly the purpose of our lives is not to marry or reproduce.

I would also challenge your ideas "the question is how does this contributes to personal growth & growth of mankind". and "Fight it your life if that's how it has to be, everyone has their own valleys to conquer."

The first is a whole other thread on what humanity can learn and benefit from homosexuality. I'm not saying everyone should try gay sex, but the reality of it's existence, and the contribution that this phenomenon makes to humanity in terms of gender roles, challenging assumptions, and the real meaning of love, deserve notable recognition. Secondly, while everyone does have their own valleys to conquer, there is currently no established scientific program for modification of homosexual desires. Despite this, most gay people have spent if not their entire life, but many years trying to do this on their own. (crazy huh?) I don't know how you expect people to fight something that there is no solution for. But I bet anything you think of has been tried by someone already, there is nothing new under the sun.

Ali

According to studies with identical and fraternal twins, 2/3 of homosexuality is determined by nature while 1/3 is determined by nurture. Therefore, do not undermine the plasticity of human nature for homsexuals can change their sexual orientation despite the difficulty.