Napkin

HI everyone,

I'm just wondering why the current Baha'i administration invests so many millions in building these super buildings around the world, while half the planet is starving to death? The Lotus Temple....I bet you could feed the entire starving Africa with that money. The Chicago mansion....they said it would be an orphanage......hasn't happened yet.

As far as I know, poor Baha'ullah never said we should collect money from the poor to build super buildings around the world....so what gives?!

Who decided to pour all that money into those buildings? Did anyone oppose them? Did anyone say: "hey guys, why don't we, instead, give that money to some starving population"?

IndistinctDreamer

What exactly does that achieve?

Fadl

It is a good question, Napkin.

Actually, not only Baha'is do this, but everyone. Even governments. Can you imagine the poor that could be fed by the properties and assets of the US government alone? Could buy a lot of food! However, I don't know if anarchy and lack of government are good longterm solutions to poverty, and people need institutions to govern, and institutions need buildings. Just seems to be the thing about economics in general. However, the institutions of the faith that are not liquidated to feed people are there to affect change that ultimately lead to more permanent and enduring solutions to severe economic disparity. I'm sure you will agree that teaching men to fish is more sustainable effective than giving them fish, and it may be in the process of learning to fish there might be a time when some one shares some of their fish to hold you over, and times where you don't get any fish until you catch one. The faith has a long term plan and vision that it operates under rather than a short term plan. It is a necesary evil. The faith is too small to do it all, so it focuses on the most lasting and meaningful changes that are long term goals.

LordOfGoblins

thats right. We are planting the seeds to cure the whole world of all ills not just hunger. If we focussed on hunger now the faith wouldnt grow and later on the world would suffer...
tahts what i think.
remember this is a spiritual solution not a material one even though the Bahai fund is a material thing the money its spent on is spiritual.
THe houses of worship have spiritual signifcances to the world and the kingdom of God on earth.
To be sure they do or Baha'u'llah wouldnt have thought up of it as important..

IndistinctDreamer

As Fadl said, teach a man to fish rather than give him fish.

tonyfish58

The Baha'i Writings do have quotes on giving to Funds to build the structure for the New World Order - No need to go into those though.

You may be interested to know that there is a lot of those starving people who become Baha'is and then give all they can to the fund as well. They to me are the essence of sacrifice and may God Bless them all. There are a lot of great stories about this.

Napkin - Out of interest what % of your income would you think you spend on the poor? It is worth considering.

A lot of people say we should give to the poor, but never take the opportunity to do it as an individual.

There are a lot of Baha'is in a lot of countries doing their bit to help people out of poverty.

Regards Tony

arthra

The "buildings" are for everyone.. Mashriqul Adhkar Houses of Worship are open to anyone and only Baha'is can contribute for their construction and maintenance..

So there are about one House of Worship per continent actually in North and South America we'll have three..so it is with the sacrifices of the believers that they are erected... When the functions of the Houses of Worship are complete they will offer a hostel, a university, a hospital, etc.

Consider that if you took the value of all the buildings say in a given religious denomination there are say churches in every community with paid staff I would venture to say that the expense in proportion is far greater than one House of Worship per continent..also the administration of the Cause per country is actually minimal compared to all the church offices scattered around the country.

The Holy Land is the administrative and spiritual center..someday we'll open the sacred areas in Baghdad and Shiraz but for now it's the Holy Land.

For the world Baha'i community the Shrines and their upkeep are part of our Faith and we direct our prayers daily there.

There are also Social Developement projects around the world that are supported or inspired by Baha'is.. Consider the following:

Since its inception the Bahá'í Faith has had involvement in socio-economic development beginning by giving greater freedom to women,[1] promulgating the promotion of female education as a priority concern,[2] and that involvement was given practical expression by creating schools, agricultural coops, and clinics.[1]

The accelerated growth of the worldwide community in the 1960s-1980s expanded it with a large number of poor, illiterate villagers and tribal peoples in India, Africa and South America, which meant an enormous challenge for the social and economic development of communities. According to the Bahá'í teachings, development should increase people’s self-reliance, communal solidarity, giving access to knowledge, and, where possible, removing sources of injustice. Spiritual, moral and material development should be linked together.[3]

The religion entered a new phase of activity when a message of the Universal House of Justice dated 20 October 1983 was released.[4] The Office of Social and Economic Development was established[5] and Bahá'ís were urged to seek out ways, compatible with the Bahá'í teachings, in which they could become involved in the social and economic development of the communities in which they lived. Worldwide in 1979 there were 129 officially recognized Bahá'í socio-economic development projects. By 1987, the number of officially recognized development projects had increased to 1482.[4]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-e...C3%A1%27%C3%AD)

Napkin

wow so you Baha'is are not even humanitarian.

Whydo you think u r planting seeds for the future? no one even knows about Baha'i and anyone who Googles it comes across all those sites saying Baha'i is a cult and they just want your money. Sounds like you guys just fell victim to some sort of a financial scam.

Fadl

Well, you know about us, don't you? Seems you can't get enough, either, so something must be working well.

Masroor Bhargava

Let me tell you two interesting facts about the Lotus Temple. It has been visited by millions of people since its inauguration; and countless volunteers have had the opportunity to convey the healing message of Bahaullah to them as well as shower them with spiritual love. This would never have been possible had the building not been there. Insofar as the money is concerned, our National Spiritual Assembly purchased the land well over 20 years before the process of building started at very cheap rates. It was then a village well removed from the city. Then the process of planning, designing and building began from 1976 (India had approx. one million Bahais on the rolls then) till the inauguration in 1986 we contributed small sums regularly for 10 years. It cost us just Rupees 10/- per believer per year at the time (at the then exchange rate equivalent of $1 approx. per head per year). The money did not come all at once, nor was it available as a lump sum which could have been used for other causes. I'm sure anybody who has done some saving of very small amounts from their income all their lives will not have difficulty in finding an insight into the matter. At any rate the building is there. There are millions who feel it is well used and are happy about it. Many of them have contributed to it and the majority of them are the same people who beleive in it and have happily gone hungry to build it. I can say this for India. If you wish to verify for yourselves, come and visit my country with an open mind. you are most welcome. As for other places in the world, knowing human nature and having had many experiences, I believe it may be no different. Have a good day, Regards,

Masroor.

Anis

Good day to ya,

As mentioned, these temples provide the necessary spiritual remedy to a decadent society that has forgotten the roots of its religion. A world that is so morally bankrupt, where the name of religion has been misused as a weapon, to enforce inequity and injustice in the name of their god.

The funds are used solely for the purpose of world healing, and money is allocated to various areas that will produce the most efficient and beneficial results. This may also include giving money to the poor. Bahá'í Reference Library -

But giving free fish does not answer the starvation problem. There are over 900 million individuals suffering worldwide malnutrition, with some 100 million facing famine. Assuming we have spent 1 billion USD on the nine temples (though the combined cost actually comes far less than 100 million USD), each starving individual would receive an enormous, hefty sum of $1. Yet, even after receiving money, there is no local market due to food scarcity.

You may collect stats from any environment website, but for a most solid reading, refer to the "Global Environment Outlook 5th Edition" UNEP report. I also recommend the book, "Forces of Our Time" by Hooper C. Dunbar, for a Baha'i perspective in light of these events. He also briefly explains the purpose of these temples.

Regards

Zhang

I don't know...

The Qur'an says to give your excess to the poor and hungry (once you pay your bills, give whatever is left over to those who need it) and at the same time God does not love those who live in excess wealth. Now i'm not saying the Islamic community at large hasn't been doing it's fair share, but in all honestly they aren't quite as organized as the Baha'i are.

Jesus wasn't well liked because he built the Vatican. Muhammad wasn't well like because he built a giant mosque around the Kabba, these men where loved and respected because they healed the sick, or gave to the poor, and stood up for the rights of the little guy.

And as a result these religions boomed. I think if people saw your community giving massive amounts of money to aid and relief for, say, Somalia, people would be more inclined to join your movement. You will recognize them by the fruits of their labor...

But why do that when you can build sick-ass mansions and huge gardens?

When Muhammad died he told his followers to bury him in an unmarked grave far away and forget about him. Baha'u'llah has a lavish shrine devoted to his glory. -.-

InvestigateTruth

But Quran also asked to make mosques.

But the Goal of Baha'i Faith is not to incline others to join.



And the Goal and Fruit of Baha'i faith is to achieve Unitiy of Mankind.
Unity in diversity by the way, but not necessarily try to make everyone Baha'i.

hmmm?


I didn't know that. Is it in a Hadith?


It is not really Lavish. It is beautiful. Well, He is the Promised One of All Ages.

wombatwolf

What you are moving towards is the philosophy of Peter Singer.

Say a train was about to run someone over, but you could save them by pulling a lever and switching the tracks- would you do it?

Of course you would.

Now, you have disposable income. Say it's $100. You could donate that $100 and save someone dying from malaria or AIDS in some far off foreign country. Would you do it?

Morality as generally known would have us think there is no difference between the two situations. You pull a lever, save a life. You spend some money, save a different life.

But do you do this? Do you spend every penny of your income that isn't used for bills, food, etc, on charity? Does anyone?

Noexalt

This is an argument that I think every major religion in the world has had thrown at it. Honestly, I can see both sides.

As far as the Mansion at Bahji goes, that was acquired very very cheaply after it had been abandoned due to a disease outbreak way back at the time of Baha'u'llah after he had long since been imprisoned and exiled for several years. The mansion was really a fixer-upper, but it worked better than pilgrims waving to Baha'u'llah from outside of His prison window.
So, yes, Baha'u'llah is buried inside this house. Thinking about this, at least an additional building was not undertaken for shrining.

Take a look at some of the older b/w pictures of the shrine of the Bab, impressive it is not.

At the same time, I do struggle with why we spend so much money on construction projects, including three new temples coming up, and then hear about people being affected by lay-offs at Administrative Centers. On the one hand we say we don't have the resources to launch large scale socio-economic development projects, but then we lay off people at administrative centers. (????)

This is not supposed to be a capitalist religion, but it is definitely not pure socialism either. Even DPRK and the former Soviet Union had some pretty impressive assets as well, neither one of them have alleviated any of the ills we see in our world either. Other Religions? Not quite, there are some pretty impressive mosques, churches, in this world too. I always try to remember however that building a temple itself can be an SEC project.. Pillars of the Earth, Ken Follett...

We most certainly can do better, that's for sure.

Napkin

Noexalt, you put it better that I did but yes thats my point.

What they are saying is, we dont need to help the poor, we just convince them to give up the little they have so we can build buildings that ONE DAY will same all of humanity? right.....when is that one day? that day will never come and those making bank off these building are laughing their faces off

InvestigateTruth

I never heard any Baha'i says, We do not need to help the poor. Baha'is are free to give money to charities if they wish. Baha'u'llah also in principle asked that the rich should care for poor, as that is a test for the rich.
But, the Baha'is are supposed to concentrate more on building a more just and fair world system by uniting the World, and making it work together in harmony.
According to Baha'u'llah, the problem of this Age is disunity. Once unity is achieved more and more, we see a more and more just World.

This is not it.
The Baha'i Places of Worship are meant to bring various people from various Faith to pray together.
This is NEW teachings. The Mosques are meant for Moslems. The Church is meant for Christians.
But Baha'i Place of Worship, is for Everyone.
Is this not a beautiful and wise idea?


It is happening NOW. There are many from Others Faith that Do go to the Baha'i Places of Worship, and Pray.
Does not this create a Spirit of Unity?

Noexalt

The "one day", the "in a future state of society" argument is getting old.

Having Faith is one thing. But I think think real reflection TODAY is necessary.
We cannot continue to always look at things from a positive bias. There are issues, there are problems, there are (gasp!) IMPERFECTIONS with the way things are done.

If not, I don't think any of us would be here b******* about things all the time, or looking to find people to talk to OUTSIDE of our own communities. This site wouldn't exist, there would be no discussions about anything, because everything would be perfect.

I think there is some discomfort when words like "transparency" are used. I'm not sure why, but if there is a plan, then lay it out and show us. Otherwise, here we are. What do you want? I have always wanted to see some breakdowns of how the Huququllah funds are used. I know what the Writings say about how they SHOULD be used, how are they really used? Is there a difference? Hopefully not.

We can do better.

InvestigateTruth

My view on this is that, the Baha'is choose 9 people around the World as Universal House of Justice, and because the process of election is done in 3 steps, and is done with greate care, fairness and spirituallity, the 9 people are the best ones for this function.
How the Hoquqollah is spent is really decided and controled by these 9 members of UHJ. These are the representatives that Baha'is of the world has chosen themselves, knowing and having faith that Baha'u'llah guides them from the Abha Kingdom as well.

Noexalt

Then, in my opinion, there should be no issue with showing us some kind of breakdown. Not saying names have to be revealed on who funds went to who have need, but if Huquq funds are reallocated somewhere else, then I think there should be no reason why we should not know.

The duties of those whom the friends have freely and conscientiously elected as their representatives are no less vital and binding than the obligations of those who have chosen them. Their function is not to dictate, but to consult, and consult not only among themselves, but as much as possible with the friends whom they represent. They must regard themselves in no other light but that of chosen instruments for a more efficient and dignified presentation of the Cause of God. They should never be led to suppose that they are the central ornaments of the body of the Cause, intrinsically superior to others in capacity or merit, and sole promoters of its teachings and principles. They should approach their task with extreme humility, and endeavor, by their open-mindedness, their high sense of justice and duty, their candor, their modesty, their entire devotion to the welfare and interests of the friends, the Cause, and humanity, to win, not only the confidence and the genuine support and respect of those whom they serve, but also their esteem and real affection. They must, at all times, avoid the spirit of exclusiveness, the atmosphere of secrecy, free themselves from a domineering attitude, and banish all forms of prejudice and passion from their deliberations. They should, within the limits of wise discretion, take the friends into their confidence, acquaint them with their plans, share with them their problems and anxieties, and seek their advice and counsel. And, when they are called upon to arrive at a certain decision, they should, after dispassionate, anxious and cordial consultation, turn to God in prayer, and with earnestness and conviction and courage record their vote and abide by the voice of the majority, which we are told by our Master to be the voice of truth, never to be challenged, and always to be whole-heartedly enforced. To this voice the friends must heartily respond, and regard it as the only means that can insure the protection and advancement of the Cause.

(Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 63)

InvestigateTruth

I don't think it is part of the duty of UHJ to publish a document yearly or monthly to individual Baha'is how Hoquqallah is spent in details and numbers.
So, I think, that would be an extra task for them to do, with no benefits.
However, I believe in principle they do say about the Plans, and what costs are required for the goals, mostly to National Assemplies, as far as each national assembly is concerned with. Then those cost requirements are passed down to local assemblies and we do see in the feast in assembly report. But if the issue is, to trust UHJ, to make sure they are spending the money correctly, then I would say, there is no point in that, since, those who contribute to Hoquqallah had already accepted UHJ as an infallible representatives of Baha'u'llah.

IndistinctDreamer

Thinking from an economical point of view, it would be much cheaper now to begin establishing the houses of worship, even if the schools, hospitals and whatnot that are suppose to surround it have not yet. Land is going to become more and more expensive so sooner houses of worships are built the cheaper it will be in the long run. Not to say that all the money should be spend on creating houses of worship alone. I trust that the people in administration are wise enough and have planned what the most effective and efficient route would be.

Anis

@Noexalt: we are but a humble forum community, what you are proposing is better suited for an audience with the NSA. I do not know the precise reason why they do not publish the UHJ treasury report, while local clusters have theirs available for everyone to look at.

For me, if the UHJ tells us that this is what the funds are being used for, then I believe, that is what the funds are actually being used for. Since Baha'is do not proselytise, our democracy system is based on trustworthiness, rather than charisma and presentation. There is very little room for corruption, the UHJ is our best shot at world unity and peace. Why should I ever think that the funds are being abused?

Yeshua

As a Catholic, I can attest to the truth of that statement. We are continually being upbraided for the splendour, magnifience and beauty of our age-old cathedrals

Noexalt

And those age old cathedrals did boost social and economic development for the regions in which they were built, and continued to support such development through the practices of pilgrimages and other commerce.

When the House of Worship in the USA was built, there was nothing there. The name of the area is called "Wilmette" which is a Native American/French derivitive of "onion field". IOW, the area smelled pretty bad, nobody wanted to be there. Now people ask us why we built a temple in such, what is now a very wealthy area. ...um...we were there first, and the village built around us.

Yeshua

A beautiful fulfilment of, in my opinion:

Zhang

The Qur'an makes two references to Mosques, the first one says that polytheists should not visit a Mosque knowing that they don't believe what Muslims believe (9:17) and the second talks about the pure of heart (9:108). It never explicitly tells believers to build Mosques, and it is worth mentioning that before the Prophet reclaimed Mecca he had no mosque to pray in. The first completed mosque was finished in the Prophet's old age (the one refereed to in 9:108, some people suggest), and before that any open space was used.

NoExalt you make an interesting point about Wilmette. I also see both sides of the equation.

InvestigateTruth

Well, it may not seem directly a command to build mosques, but certainly, it can be seen that the Author of Quran had the intention that the Mosques be built.

"Mosques are built for Allah’s worship; therefore, invoke not anyone along with Allah" Quran 72:17

"O Children of Adam! Put on your adornment when you attend your Mosque at the time of every prayer." Quran 7:30

tonyfish58

For accuracy - You said that - Not us

If one always wishes to twist the truth, one always can. But this does not make it so

Regards Tony

arthra

What may be forgotten is that a Baha'i House of Worship is also an institution that raises education and provides a hostel for the poor..and a hospital..

The contribution that thou hast made to the Temple is beloved. The Temple is the most great foundation of the world of humanity and it hath many branches.

Although the Temple is the place of worship, with it is connected

a hospital,

pharmacy,

pilgrims' house,

school for the orphans,

and a university for the study of high sciences.

Every Temple is connected with these five things.

I hope that now in America they will build a Temple and gradually add to it the hospital, school, university, pharmacy and pilgrims' house with the utmost efficiency and thoroughness. Thou shouldst make known to the believers these details, so that they may realize how important the Temple is. The Temple is not only a place for worship; nay, it is perfect in every way.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 416

The House of Worship in Ishqabad had some of these depencies until it was seized by the Soviets:

The Temple had two schools, one for boys and one for girls, and a pilgrim house was later built. The local community, and the activities of the friends throughout the provinces of Turkistan expanded and developed in stature until 1928, when the law expropriating religious edifices was applied to this Temple. However, under the terms of two five-year leases, the Bahá'í community was permitted to continue to use the building as a house of worship. In 1938 the Temple was completely expropriated and converted into an art gallery.

Source:

http://bahaihistoricalfacts.blogspot...-ishqabad.html


The House of Worship in Wilmette had a home for senior citizens at one time and of course the National Spiritual Assembly of the US has a nascent university in the form of the Wilmette Institute..

My belief is that the House fo Worship to be built in New Guinea will likely have some of these dependencies.

See:

Plans to build new Houses of Worship announced - Bahá'í World News Service

Napkin

Maybe I'm completely mistaken here....

R u saying these mansions offer those services now? My understanding was they falsely claim that your money is going towards those services for the larger community, although they have never offered any of those services.

Napkin

I'm just gonna conclude that Baha'i mansions do not offer any of those services you mentioned (orphanage, hospital, housing the poor, etc), but in order to get poor people to pay, they promise the services will be offered someday......

IndistinctDreamer

You seem to be mistaken, your attempting to twist the facts in order to present them as if manipulation is going on.

Houses of Worship will have these services. Its just a matter of time.

Napkin

matter of time....they said that 80 years ago. When will they have those services? another 80 years?

Orthodox

Perhaps because they view such things as more valuable than food, that by serving God with beauty or using these as a base of worship, operations and the like they can more effectively help? But that would make their arguments against adorned churches hypocritical.

IndistinctDreamer

We may have said it 80 years ago and we will continue to say it. When the capacity to do such a thing is present then it will happen.

Napkin

The capacity is present now. They just don't do it. They built mansions to offer community services, instead of offering a single service to the community, they just wanna build more mansions. At what point do you say hey maybe this is a scam.

Would you donate money to a school that doesn't have a single class? The school just promises that one day they will actually teach. Till then, just donate more money for more schools.

tonyfish58

Napkin & Orthodox - It is a good point to consider that when we study the lives of the Prophets and Saints of all religions, the common thing is they practice what they preach. They do not condemn, they work towards the common good.

The Houses of Worship will in the future be the Focal Point of this common good to which we currently have the bounty to contribute to, no matter how rich or poor we may be. The Bahá'ís: Do Bahá

God has allowed, nay encouraged the building of these places of worship/center points of the communities of the future. To knock these is to rebel against God!

You can join in and participate or just keep throwing insults from the sidelines, its up to you.

Regards Tony

mytmouse57

It's done purposefully and for the sole reason of vexing contrarians.

Napkin

You do realize you and your 8-10 Forum members here are the contrarians. The entire United states disagrees with you.