Orthodox

Thats not what Christ says, Christ says he will establish his church on peter, not that Peter will continue the church. Perhaps you should read the bible. You cannot read that interpretation into the bible, it is incompatible.

Ah so you say because we don't agree with you are not the fullness of revelation or of God? I could apply that to you as well sir.

Livindesert

Ahh yes Jesus's earthly community Ending Moses earthly community until Muhammad the comforter established his and currently the second coming established his community the Baha'i Faith

The sum of all these communities(plus Krishna,The Bab, Gautuma, and Zoraster's communities) is the Church.

Orthodox

The comforter is not Muhammad it is the Holy spirit. I will explain why when I get back. The Comforter was promised to Christ's desciples, unless you believe mUhammad to be 600 years old. Seeya going to the pub.

Livindesert

The Holy Spirit(God in action) was already with them(and with the Jewish people) so something already with them cannot be the comforter it has to be someone new. That is the only way it can work.

O.k. catch you later I am going to catch some zzzzz

LarryK32

Orthodox,
This isn't about this debate, but, it seems that you keep referring to "Baha'u'llah" as "Baha" which is not his name. Just sayin'.

Orthodox

Actually the apostles did not have the Holy spirit. There is a verse in scripture that specifically says this. But before that we might consider acts.

He told them “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8).

If they had the Holy spirit, why did they need to receive the power of the Holy spirit? And I will get back to you on the point with the verse that says they did not have the Holy spirit, but I think the numerous verses prove my point. Jesus tells them they are to receive the Holy spirit as he breathed on them and John and in acts they receive it at pentacost. I'm sorry what you say is contrary to scripture.

And no the holy spirit was not with the jewish people(at least not all) for if it were it would have guided all of the jewish people into Christ, they did not have or rejected the Holy spirit if it ever came to them. This much is true.

As for Muhammad not being the comforter that much is clear by simply reading the text.

John14:15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

Hmmm Jesus promises this to his desciples, Muhammad didn't come untill six hundred years later. Jesus must have been late to send Muhammad. Nor did Muhammad teach that we are in Christ, perhaps his body. In fact such a concept is foreign to Islam the body of Christ. Muhammad could not have been the comforter or spirit of truth, for he did not have the qualities of both. These titles are for hte Holy spirit NOT muhammad.

ALso I will call him Bahu'a'llah if anyone feels offended. Note i called him that once, His name is a nuisance to type is all.

BruceDLimber

The Baha'i adminstration is very different because our elections are completely non-political: indeed, nominations, discussion of individual personalities, and campaigning are all expressly forbidden!

Nor do those elected to serve have any special power or authority over anyone else! They're "just Baha'is" like others. It's only the institutions themselves, WHEN THEY"RE ACTUALLY MEETING, that hold any authority--never any individual!

Further, there is NO preaching and never any sermon!

Whether to accept Him or not is YOUR decision, no one else's! And this is precisely the problem: you question implies you're letting SOMEONE ELSE make this decision FOR you rather than investigating yourself to determine where the truth lies and then following what you discover. One of the central Baha'i principles is Individual Investigation of Truth, and that no one else may influence your decision.

If you're going by what other religious individuals say, you'll be rejecting Christ, too because some of them reject Him!

And if you take the time to READ the Bahai' scriptures, you'll find they provide a comprehensive explanation for the Muslim view of the Crucifixion (citation upon request)!

For the simple reason that we have the Baha'i scriptures (which no one else had)! They explain all this very beautifully and lucidly, in great detail comprising fully 200 volumes!

For the simple reason that churches originall established by Divine Messengers tend to drift off target due to human meddling and perversion over the centuries! And it can eventually get to the point of rejecting what is indeed true, including the appearance of later Messengers. NO church--even if you can pick the right one from the 35,000 different Christian denominations--is the permanent be-all and end-all of what is true in each succeeding Age! This is one of the reasons why God periodically renews religion by sending another Messenger (the other being to provide updated teachings suited to humanity's new circumstances in a new Age).

You also need to appreciate that while there have indeed been false prophets (as Christ warned), there are also TRUE ones! Indeed, First John 4:2 gives a specific criterion for determining who is of God--a test that Baha'u'llah clearly passes!

And another fact you overlook is that millions of Christians (as well as others) have indeed accepted Baha'u'llah! This is why they're now called Baha'is.

Not when properly viewed, they don't! I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."

—(The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 114;
also Gleanings, CXI, pp. 217-8)

Oh, REALLY?!

You've obviously never visited this site, which I heartily commend to you:

www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

And what exactly makes you think we drink alcohol? (Yes, I know one can simply go there for a meal.)

Peace,

Bruce

Livindesert

Here are some quick examples of the holy spirit already with the people in the OT.

Psalm 51:10-12 (New American Standard Bible)


10(A)Create in me a (B)clean heart, O God,
And renew a (C)steadfast spirit within me.
11(D)Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your (E)Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the (F)joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a (G)willing spirit.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit;Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,He fought against them.


Isaiah 63:11
Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,


Daniel 4:9
'O Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, since I know that a spirit of the holy gods is in you and no mystery baffles you, tell me the visions of my dream which I have seen, along with its interpretation.

Orthodox

Actually the Orthodox church is the true church, it is permanent and has remained since the apostolic era. But perhaps you misunderstand why I trust these fathers, I trust because i have studied them because they are consistent in their theology along with the orthodox church today.

That being said, I still ask this question how can you be the church if the historic church established by Christ (the orthodox church) still exists and rejects you. Christs promises to protect his church from the gates of hades, thus it cannot fall into falsehood, Yet the church never believed in bahai, in fact no one ever believed in the bahai view of Jesus till the Bab and Abdul'u'baha. Why is this? Are men doomed for ever to misrpresent the prophets who come to guide them. What makes you think you have understand The Bab and Baha'u'llah?

And I never said you drink Alcahol at all... I don't drink alcahol, I just went last night with some friends...

Now those verses don't prove the desciples had the holy spirit. Clearly they received it later after Jesus. May I suggest Pentacost? Thus fulfilling what Jesus had promised THE desciples after he had ascended into heaven. Muhammad did not come to the desciples, thus the comforter cannot be Muhammad.

Orthodox

Also if you accuse me of not following an independant truth or investigation of truth for trusting the fathers and the bible. Why do you trust the bab or the latest manifestation? Look for truth on your own. See when I quote the fathers I do it because there is a consistent line of theology dating back to the apostles. Read Ignatius to JOhn Damascene to see this. And orthodoxy is the conclusion I have reached, just like bahai is the conclusion you have reached thus you will defend the works of your belief and use them to prove things as I will the fathers.

Livindesert

I would say yes I am sure the next prophet/manifestation will bring further clarification about Baha'u'llah. As this is the way God has ordained it to happen before.

Livindesert

Because they rejecting us is what in our view validates us..

Orthodox

A god who cannot send his message right is no God at all. god would not give us cryptic clues, God is not a gnostic God who tells us to find the real knowledge, He is a God who gives truth not vague ambiguities.

And once again it does not follow from Being persecuted that one is to be believed. If we go by that criteria you shuold believe in Joseph Smith. I'm sorry what you say doesn't logically add up. And yet you say it with what I assume a straight face.

So Livin why believe any of the bahai doctrine when it could be wrong? What is your assurance that your doctrine is right? You have freely admitted this. So why believe in bahai when you could be blaspheming God? Perhaps bahai should be a religion in which you believe Bahai but you don't have doctrine, just to be safe? I mean you shouldn't interpret his words at all, you could be wrong.

Livindesert

Which is why the Jews rejected Jesus as they did not see him as fulfilling the role of Messiah as revealed to them. Thus the cycle of people rejecting the manifestations continues.

Livindesert

I have to go to the store and then I am having some company over so I can give you the complete story later if you want but the short answer is God lead me through a spiritual quest to the Baha'i faith. Even if I am wrong for some reason it is where God wants me to be.

Orthodox

So we should believe in Joseph smith? You did know Joseph smith is the 9th manifestation and when your writings were saying the next would come 800 or so years later it was not being literal? It was being a metaphore. You should believe in Joseph smith on that very criteria. Not even just joseph smith. You should believe in all other people who claim to be prophets because they are ALL rejected at one point. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE TO REJECT A PERSON WHO CLAIMS TO BE FROM GOD, so don't you see how flawed this criterion is?

Its utter insanity. Okay, I claim to be the 10th manifestation, please accept me. And if you reject me I am truely the 10th manifestation. This is the sort of thing your propose. The logic you propose is absurd.

Orthodox

Why does God want anyone to be wrong? For what purpose does that serve? That is a god who tricks people and doesn't care about revealing whom he truely is. Are you listening to how absurd your sayings are? The Holy spirit doesn't guide people into falsehood, but your God seems to guide you into falsehood or has that potential.

Livindesert

I actually have a high regard for Mormons, the ones I know really live Godly lives and are morally upright people.

As far as your claim I am willing to hear you out if you say you are a manifestation. I will at least hear out any religious teacher as we are all of the same religion anyways even if we are at different points along our paths.

Livindesert

I am just saying that I am human and have the potential to be wrong. I would never claim I am above making a mistake.

LarryK32

@ Orthodox
You mad?

Livindesert

O.k. I will be back on later gtg

Orthodox

Wow, you are actually taking that claim seriously? I don't consider myself the next manifestation in fact I don't think there is any such thing, there was only the incarnation and that was the Lord Jesus Christ, Christos Anesti.

But the same concept applies. You would obviously not accept someone who claims to be a manifestation due to it being clear in the bahai writings that the next manifestation is not bound for your life time. As I am aware 800 or so years.

But the problem is by rejecting this person you would be vindicating this person. So this means anyone at all who claims be a prophet lets say a psychotic rapist murderer who likes to play dungeons and dragons in his spare time, either you accept him or reject him thus proving him right and then you would have to accept him. This criteria I am merely saying is rediculous.

You judge a persons claims to truth not on who dissagrees with them, but by looking at their words and seeing if there are inconsistencies and etc within. But if you maintain this postion you would have to believe Simon Magus, Joseph smith and everyone else. This is the hole you have put yourself into.

Orthodox

And I must vehemently dissagree, we are not the same religion. My religion teaches the trinity (not bahai trinity), it sings the divine liturgy, It teaches theosis, it teaches ressurection (physical), it teaches the second coming (of Christ in the first century literally), it teaches the use of holy icons, it teaches the infallibility of the councils, It teaches it is the only church that has remained faithful to the fathers and the apostles, it teaches that we have free will, it teaches that sin is all equal and if you sin you sin no matter what sin.

This is not the religion of bahai. There may be some similarities, but there are just two many differences for it to be the same religion. THe only way you can get around that is if you believe that the body of God's people can turn against itself thus making God divided and Christ's promise to protect his church false, proving Christ false.

Livindesert

It's o.k. weather it be this life or the next I believe you will see the oneness of religion and how we are all part of the same religion and worship the same God

Livindesert

Weather I do or don't dose not matter, what matters is I am willing to listen :wub

Maybe I would maybe I would not. It would depend on my own search for spiritual truth. As a Jew I would have listened to Jesus instead of automatically assuming he was incorrect because he did not line up with the traditional Jewish view of the messiah.

I did not say it was the only thing I look for LoL but historically manifestations are rejected by the status quo I did not make that up it is simply history.

Now why not at least listen to Simon or Joseph. God works through all people and even if I disagree with them I still might be able to learn from them.

Orthodox

Through all logical reasoning you seem to ignore. If you are the same religion as mine will you sing divine liturgy and uphold the Nicene creed? ONly then would you be of the religion and a brother in church. You would sing a hymn to Christ as God, you would be looking to be baptised and chrismated, you would believe the orthodox church is the only body which has remained faithful to the fathers and synods.

Livin talking to you is almost pointless I can see that. If you cannot see the flaw with having to accept EVERYONE who claims be a prophet you are truely lost to the new age and bahai. Which I find sad.

And livin, I have listened to bahai, and have come to the conclusion is wrong because the tradition and church come out alot stronger due to its ties to teh disciples Christ taught for 40 days. And I doubt it was only metaphore he taught them. So don't think I merely reject it because of that, I reject bahai because its claims are inconsistent, not in line with history or rational thought and it claims things which simply cannot be read or found in the earliest centuries of Christianity.

arthra

Then why are your here? Pray tell...:wink

Orthodox

As I have said, to engage in important theological discussions.

arthra

Quite frankly I don't think this forum is about your "important theological discussions". YOU seem to have a need to set forth your views here and assume a condescending attitude.

If indeed your view is the following:

I have listened to bahai, and have come to the conclusion is wrong because the tradition and church come out alot stronger due to its ties to teh disciples Christ taught for 40 days

Then why again are you here?

Orthodox

To have bahai defend their views. To haved questions answered. Arthra, instead of trying to get rid of me perhaps you would be better at defending bahai? I have told you why I have come here many times Arthra. So stop asking me why I am here. YOu know why I am here.

LarryK32

Well, you twist peoples' words a bit, remain ignorant of many Baha'i teachings, and claim we are wrong and try to use rationality to prove us wrong when you can't use rationality to prove yourself correct. You ignore the way we interpret scriptures and believe that your method of interpretation is infallible.

I think I know why you're here. I think you're here to condemn and proselytize. To be completely honest, I've never seen an evangelicalist attempt to convert any other way.

pheonixduprese

Speech is like an oven mitt, and your honesty, integrity, and faith are your hand- how you chose to use the oven mitt is how you chose to protect your hand.

Orthodox

In fact I have twisted nothing. I was told that Christianity was a valid view of God, therefore the trinity is valid. I twisted nothing. I was told that if we reject someone they are right, I twisted nothing. So please don't accuse me of something I have not done. I do use words and reacht he basic conclusions from what one says yes, but never twist them.

And Larry if you can't handle criticsm perhaps you should not engage with me. You seem to want me out of here and stop asking questions and criticising. Why?Heres an example of what I have been doing. You say that you will not seek to bring anyone into bahai, now you obviously believe bahai to be good and correct, therefore I could come to the conclusion that you don't care if one comes into the fullness of truth whcih is bahai. No? Its also interesting to note no one has really seemed to reject the conclusions I make. THey merely side step the issue into something completely irrelevent.

Orthodox

That being said I have condemned no one, I just see problems with bahai that no one seems to be able to resolve.

LarryK32

You have twisted my words. On morality. If you don't believe in the Baha'i Faith, don't. If you want an answer, ask us the question, but don't expect us to use your method of interpretation.

I'm going to bed. Good night.

pheonixduprese

Orthodox, these are only problems to you. We have resolved them within ourselves. You were also told that Christianity is correct. I'm telling you that Hinduism is correct; does that mean you will follow Hinduism? No.

Faith is come upon by personal experiences, not text on a page, or the tellings of others.

Orthodox

Once again I have twisted no words, i have reached a conclusion from the words said.

"Christianity is a valid view of viewing God" Someone on the bahai forums said.

Christianity today believes that Christ is God eternal.

Therefore trinity is valid doctrine (Christian trinity not bahai trinity(I have to say that so you don't say you believe in the trinity Christians do)).

Jesus was rejected, Muhammad was rejected therefore Bahu'a'llah was right because he was also rejected.

If this is the criterion of truth of a person, we must accept Marcion, Nestorius, we must accept Joseph smith and everyone else who claims something because some one always exists to reject an idea. Therefore every person on the earth is right in their view.

This is standard stuff larry, I don't twist, I merely take what is said to the logical conclusion. Either you maintain the conclusion or dispute it.

Orthodox

So why cannot you share this knowledge of resolving with me? Why hide this essential truth? Its a very gnostic thing to do, that truth is something to be discovered by yourself. You don't share it. This just makes me doubt the sincerity of bahai even more.

pheonixduprese

Orthodox: I am truncating this "discussion," or "conversation," because it is beginning to stir unpleasant emotions in me.

Good night.

LarryK32

We will not force you. If you want to be Baha'i independently investigate for the truth. That means by yourself. It might not bring you to the Baha'i Faith. It might bring you to Zoroastrianism. But it must be independent.