Clex19

Please recall that Bahá'ís consider parts of the Bible to be symbolic if they contradict science. Jesus did not contradict science, and yes, we agree there is historical evidence. Christianity would not be as it is today if Jesus were merely a symbol. Additionally, the Báb, Bahá'u'lláh, and 'Abdu'l-Bahá all recognized Jesus as much more than a symbol; that He was an actual living Manifestation of God with a real, physical body.

Orthodox

The virgin birth contradicts science. no rather it contradicts the scientism of today that is the pressupossition that only the natural exists and science is the only method to know the world. Science is not the only way by which we judge reality. It is one method. For instance, if science is the only way to judge the world legitimently, prove it with science. It cannot be done.

You seem to abritrarily accept the virgin birth rejecting other parts. lord have mercy.

Clex19

I'm not going to argue with you, Orthodox. I already explained why the virign birth is believed to agree with science in a different post. I have nothing else to say about it at the moment and if you and others don't, then let's move on to a different topic, please.

Orthodox

No science does not agree with the virgin birht. as I have already explained. Your other post is completely flawed in which you assume a sort of scientism which validates your beliefs. No. Scientism does not prove your beliefs. That being said, if science and religion are to be perfectly in sinct. Gather the researchable data and prove God exists scientifically. It cannot be done. You and Bahu'a'llah assume this to be the most legitiment thing, it is not, Philosophy establishes science itself.

Clex19

Science does not contradict the existence of God. Just because science can't prove that God exists doesn't mean that they can't coexist harmoniously. The fact that science hasn't disproven the existence of God means that they don't clash. Define agreement between religion and science however you want, but this is good enough for me.

And here's what science tells us what could explain the virgin birth:

Moreover human virgin births have been reported in England and Italy.

Lunitik

Baha'i acknowledge the balance and agreement of scientific and spiritual pursuits. There is only one reality, and thus competing theologies cannot exist, there must only be one answer. In such matters, Baha'is give precedence to that which is provable in the conceivable world as we are taught to pursue knowledge and understanding.

What Baha'is believe in respect to the "virgin birth" is different from that of Christians. There is documented evidence even that Mary had children prior to the birth of Jesus, and thus how could it be a virgin birth? We believe that Jesus is a special being, in that he is a Manifestation of God, but he was born of flesh and bone like you or I. What separates him from normal people is that he was born into this world with superior knowledge and perfection. He mirrored Gods message, and told it to his people in ways they can understand.

One thing that is fundamentally flawed about Christianity is that its books were not written down until many years after his death - some stating as much as 300 years later. In that time, as is true of all story telling, things are embellished greatly. With the Baha'i faith, the scriptures are written often in the founders own pen and thus I consider them to be more accurate.

Orthodox

Wow clex, by supporting such an article you deny the holy spirit coming on mary and thus causing her to conceive. It is downright blasphemous and destructive to your own belief system. For if you really support this, Jesus being born was not due to God in any sort of way. It was due to a defect in mary. God had no part if you accept that explanation. It is embarressing Clex, please stop blaspheming.

Bahai exhalt science to a pedastal of almost equal to revelation. That is terrible and its a shame you do not see this.

Oh ho, Documented evidence? Are you referring to gnostic gospels which have come alot later, written by heretics who distort the gospel. Please read the gospel before you say this.

Luk 1:27 to a virgin who had been betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:34 But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man?

It is embarressing the desperate lengths people will go to in order to undermine hte very text they claim to believe. Clearly Mary was a virgin. She had not yet married Joseph. Now unless you want to call mary a Whore, slut or prostitute you really have to rescind your statements.

Forgive me lord for the words I just said, Mary was forever virgin amen.

Lol, its books? You mean the books you bahai quote and claim to believe? I am starting to think bahai really don't believe in teh 27 NT canon and just claim to. You honour it with your words but do not do so with your actions. The Orthodox kiss it, place it in Gold for it is that precious to us. You really need to educate yourself on the bible. The earliest book was 20 years after Christ. But let us consider. Bahu'a'llah quotes some traditions of Muhammad from the hadith right? When was the hadith written? It was written ages after, almost 200 years. Now the book of revelation was the last book fo the bible to be written by st John at the close of the first century and many others were written inbetween. You Claim to believe these books yet you would condemn them as being late and therefore not realiable. Truely, this is the most spectacular defence of Bahai I have seen.

Now if these books are unrealiable because they are old you must therefore reject any information about Alexander the great. in fact he did not exist. If you consider the words of Paul inaccurate because he wrote later, yet these books were written within the time of the apostles, so are the apostles also undermined in Bahai? it seems that way. Bahai you want to move from the past forgetting it and embrace a liberalism which is not of God, but of mankind. Tell me, give me a definite answer. If heresy means wrong belief. Is the Christian trinity heretical? Is the incarnation heretical? Prove that bahai can commit to something.

tonyfish58

Boy Bruce that,s really scraping the manure from the chickens floor

Lets hope you do not go through every thread to pick up spelling/grammar mistakes - It will take you some time :lol

The sentence explains itself without worrying too much about the wrong word - after all its not prophesy. :rolleyes

Unfortunately we are not all good with spelling and spell check will not pick up the wrong use of a word. :cool

Cheers Tony

BruceDLimber

Greetings!

Please cite a source for this.

I'm aware of statements that she had other children, but have never heard of anything claiming she had other children first.

Thanks! :-)

Bruce

BruceDLimber

In fact, I've worked as an editor in the past and currently in my spare time am one of the folks editing books in the Online Baha'i Library project, checking spelling and grammar, and inserting/verifying accents and other diacritical marks (such as underdots and underscores) for titles being prepared for online release!

Just remember that for some of us, doing this ranks a a significant pleasure! :-)

Besides, it's always best to be sure someone won't read a statement about the Faith that's mistakenly opposite to what we actually believe.

"One does what one can, doesn't one?" :-)

Cheers,

Bruce

arthra

As for the virgin birth of Jesus...

Shoghi Effendi explained it was quite miraculous..so we accept it.. It's also basically in the Qur'an as well.. Saying that however does not mean we require it as a credo however..

I'm sure most people are familiar with the statement:

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In the light of what Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

~ Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Bahá'í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá'u'lláh confirms, however, indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also 'Abdu'l-Bahá in the 'Some* Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p.73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."

(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

~ Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489

Additionally:

"We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately. His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to Dr. Shook November 19, 1945: Bahá'í News, No. 210, p. 3, August 1948)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)

I think that letter was to Glenn A. Shook and I met his daughter Betty Lamb some years ago.. Glenn Shook wsa the author of "Mysticism, Science and Revelation."

He makes the following statement in his book..p. 80

"Ostensibly reason should lead us to universal truth; but as we know , in reality it does not. The human mind has its limitations and thinkers are never entirely free from feeling. Finally we must remember that even science yields truths only in fields where verification is possible.. Science is of inestimable value to religious thinking in that it frees us from superstition but when science takes a hand at fundamental religious concepts it is in a field of speculation a field in which its results cannot be verified."



As to Jesus family there are no specifics.. Tradition says Joseph was a good deal older and some believe there were children either close relatives such as cousins raised together.. and some believe Joseph may have had children from an earlier marriage.. no body knows for sure and there's no official position taken on that..Maybe someone would like to offer something more specific along this line and I would humbly say I have not seen or heard of it as yet..

Here is an interesting passage:

"It would be sacrilege for a Bahá'í to believe that the parents of Jesus were illegally married and that the latter was consequently of an illegal union. Such a possibility cannot be even conceived by a believer who recognizes the high station of Mary and the Divine Prophethood of Jesus Christ. It is this same false accusation which the people of His Day attributed to Mary that Bahá'u'lláh indirectly repudiated in the Íqán. The only alternative therefore is to admit that the birth of Jesus has been miraculous.

The operation of miracles is not necessarily irrational or illogical. It does by no means constitute a limitation of the Omnipotence of God. The belief in the possibilities of miracles, on the contrary, implies that God's power is beyond any limitation whatsoever. For it is only logical to believe that the Creator, Who is the sole Author of all the laws operating in the universe, is above them and can, therefore, if He deems it necessary, alter them at His Own Will. We, as humans, cannot possibly attempt to read His Mind, and to fully grasp His Wisdom.

Mystery is therefore an inseparable part of true religion, and as such, should be recognized by the believers."

(From the Guardian to an individual believer, October 1, 1935: Canadian Bahá'í News, February 1968, p. 11)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)

LarryK32

Another way Mary could have had a virgin birth could have been due to bilocation. Bilocation is where any molecule in the universe randomly teleports somewhere else in the universe. There molecules could have teleported into Mary's uterus and he they aligned correctly they could create a sperm cell which could impregnate Mary.

And Orthodox, what government has persecuted Christianity in the last 166 years to where there would be martyrs? I know the USSR persecuted them to some degree, but I doubt any were martyred.

BruceDLimber

Greetings, Art! :-)

The rest would indeed have been conceived naturally, but in the Baha'i viewpoint, EVERYONE is conceived immaculately because there is no such thing as "original sin!" I refer you to Ezekiel 18:14-20 in the Jewish scriptures for proof of this.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

arthra

Of course but I was quoting the Guardian.. :wink

arthra

After reading the above quotes in my post above I don't think we Baha'is have indicated there is any explanation for the birth of Christ other than miraculous... but we don't place the emphasis on it that Christians do or did...and we don't see it as say an Incarnatioin of God the way Christians do..

All of us took a hit from the Communistas They pretty much treated all religious people with dis- dain..Stalin exiled Baha'is from Ishqabad to Iran and also Siberia. There were some Orthodox who were martyred by the Communists and they also tried to set up a church that would be more sympathetic to the regime..somewhat as in Tibet.

The distinguishing thing though about the Babi Baha'i martyrs is the parallel to the early Christian martyrs..as you know soon after revelation of the Bab how attempts were made to snuff it out..

LordOfGoblins

"CURRENT" science does not know how to explain immaculate conception, but future science may well allow for the possibility. Did you ever think of that? Not everything in science has yet been understood...

BruceDLimber

In fact, in the Baha'i view EVERYONE is conceived immacuately in that there is no such thing as "original sin" and we are all born pure and undefiled, as the Baha'i scriptures make clear! Among other things, they state: "Noble I [God] created thee...."

Peace,

Bruce

earthling155

I'm not very good at finding quotes, but I do believe that Baha'u'llah instructs us to treat the teachers and leaders of the former religions respectfully. He says, they do have responsibilities and authority to serve the Cause of God as they understand It.

Baha'u'llah Himself always treated them respectfully. He submitted to their authority, even when they were persecuting Him.

As for the Immaculate Conception. The Holy Quran mentions it by saying that when God say be, so it is. That is the Muslim explanation and the Baha'i explanation of the Immaculate Conception.

Thank God Jesus saved us.
There is only One Almighty God, and Muhammad is His Apostle.
Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for now.

LordOfGoblins

Sorry i was refering to the virgin birth...