Orthodox

Of the church fathers? I ask this for an important reason as the Bahai claim to be the continuation of Christianity, a new revelation. And the Church fathers came in between that time teaching many, many things, defining many many things. Thus I don't think it is a subject that can be ignored by either side, what is the role of the church fathers? Do you call them saints, disvalue them as false teachers I am curious.

Samoaga

Hi Orthodox:

Baha'is believe that fathers should be treated equally with mothers.

bwb

I also agree that church fathers should have equal rights with church mothers. LOL

"It is good to laugh. Laughter is a spiritual relaxation." -'Abdu'l-Baha

whine of astonsihment

:lolThanks for making me laugh till the tears roll Bill - I really needed it!

whine of astonsihment

Abdul--Baha also said that while it's true that men and women are equal in the sight of God, in reality women are superior.
That kind of made me smile a little too .... and you?

Orthodox

God be praised. thats a question I was going to ask next. but please could you address the question I asked? Seriously... It is a very important subject, after all did the fathers in between teach false doctrine or a true doctrine? It is not something Bahai can ignore, but feel free to ignore. And what about the view of people in between? Other teachers of religion. But specifically the fathers.

bwb

Basically, in Baha'i teachings, you will find references to Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, the 12 Apostles, the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, Martin Luther, the Papacy, the Emperor Constantine, but no references at all, or almost no references at all, to Eastern orthodoxy, the Church fathers, or Church councils.

Yeshua

Why so BWB?

Pollwr

Sorry, I am a bit ignorant. What are Church Fathers? Do you mean priests?

arthra

Well the "Church Fathers" in my view were some of the fairly early figures in the history of Christianity that helped shaped doctrines and so on..and I suppose helped in the formation of the church...

I can provide though some basic statements on Christianity that may help Orthodox..

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended

Source:

Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 109. Further letters can be found in the same section of Lights of Guidance, where the two previous quotes come from.

The following explains why Baha'is cannot have dual memberships say in churches and be Baha'is simultaneously...

24 June 1947

Dear Bahá'í Friends:

Your letter, dated June 16th, has been received, and our beloved Guardian has instructed me to answer it on his behalf.

He can quite well understand that after so many years of isolation from the rest of the Bahá'í world it came as a surprise to some of you to hear that we, as Bahá'ís, must not have any affiliations with churches or political parties. But he feels certain that when you meditate on this matter you yourselves will see the wisdom of it. We, as Bahá'ís, can never be known as hypocrites or as people insincere in their protestations and because of this we cannot subscribe to both the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh and ordinary church dogma. The churches are waiting for the coming of Jesus Christ; we believe He has come again in the Glory of the Father. The churches teach doctrines - various ones in various creeds - which we as Bahá'ís do not accept; such as the bodily Resurrection, confession, or, in some creeds, the denial of the Immaculate Conception. In other words there is no Christian church today whose dogmas we, as Bahá'ís can truthfully say we accept in their entirety - therefore to remain a member of the Church is not proper for us, for we do so under false pretences. We should, therefore, withdraw from our churches but continue to associate, if we wish to, with the church members and ministers.

Our belief in Christ, as Bahá'ís, is so firm, so unshakable and so exalted in nature that very few Christians are to be found nowadays who love Him and reverence Him and have the faith in Him that we have. It is only from the dogmas and creeds of the churches that we dissociate ourselves; not from the spirit of Christianity.

Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v I, p. 122

A Baha'i scholar Robert Stockman has provided a general view of the developement of Christianity during what he calls the classical period.. Robert Stockman is more or less summarizing the period for Baha'i readers:

http://bahai-library.com/stockman_ch...html&chapter=6

So his remarks provide some general perspectives.. From that I don't know that there is a specific or official Baha'i view of the church father per se..

Personally my own view (When Baha'is say that they are not representing any official Baha'i view)

is that the formation of Christianity is interesting and that it shows how the earlier followers of Jesus came from perhaps a less formal at the time culture of Aramaic speaking people to transition to Hellenistic eastern Mediterranean culture and that some of the Aramaic culture was lost in translation.... there was also in my view an anti semitism that crept into the early church not only from what are called "Judaizers" vrs. Greeks or Gentile Christians but with the destruction of Jerusalem.. much of the Jewish Christian material was lost and in the diaspora of the Jews traditions and materials was lost.

The fall of Jerusalem also had unfortunate consequences with the establishment of Aelia Capiltolina the new pagan "Jerusalem" in which Jews were forbidden..


Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

http://www.yashanet.com/library/fathers.htm

For these reasons there were anti Jewish laws in the newly Christianized Roman Empire in say the laws of Justinian..

See:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Code_of_Just...gainst_Judaism

Jews were also considered "Christ killers" for centuries and had to bear the persecution and isolation from the Christian communities...

So there were social and historical reasons why the Hellenized version of Christianity more so represented by many of the "church fathers" eventually triumphed but and nonetheless as a Baha'i I do accept that the teachings of Jesus have been preserved in the Gospels.

bwb

I don't know, but I guess that you just have to live with it. I wish that Baha'u'llah had written some advice for me about how not to misplace my socks. But somehow I have to cope with that omission on His part. LOL

Livindesert

Thanks for the great post Arthra

Yeshua

lollol:lol genius! :tongue

Orthodox

INteresting, but did you know St Constantine was responsible for gathering hte first Holy council?

And hte Church fathers are essentially a group of early influential Christian teachers, preists and etc. These can range from St Ignatius who is a saint, to Tertulian who isn't a Saint and even origin, to St John Damascus.

Livindesert

My current favorite is Justin Martyr :cool

Livindesert

Abdu'l Baha on Constantine....

Orthodox

Why Justin Matyr? Just curious is all.

Interesting that Abdul-Baha speaks of Holy souls coming up to defend the gospel? We know of many figures at that time, there were two main groups, the Arrians and the Catholic Christians. I wonder if Abdul is speaking about St Athanasius the Great as he was most certaintly the greatest defender of the gospel.

bwb

These Christians who wept over Baha'u'llah in Adrianople(Edirne), Turkey, may have been Eastern Orthodox, I suppose:

"The fateful decision was eventually arrived at to banish Bahá'u'lláh to the penal colony of 'Akká...
Suddenly, one morning, the house of Bahá'u'lláh was surrounded by soldiers, sentinels were posted at its gates, His followers were again summoned by the authorities, interrogated, and ordered to make ready for their departure. "The loved ones of God and His kindred," is Bahá'u'lláh's testimony in the Suriy-i-Ra'is, "were left on the first night without food... The people surrounded the house, and Muslims and Christians wept over Us... We perceived that the weeping of the people of the Son (Christians) exceeded the weeping of others -- a sign for such as ponder.""

(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 179)

arthra

"....We perceived that the weeping of the people of the Son (Christians) exceeded the weeping of others -- a sign for such as ponder.""

Thanks for sharing that!:wink

Livindesert

I enjoyed reading his work "Dialogue with Trypho" and he seemed to be a big link to allowing the church to accept the "Apocalypse of John". I was brought up with a very literal reading of Revelations so people associated with premillennialism are sort of my theological comfort food.

bwb

A little bit difficult to decide where to post this one, but since this is where we're having the most laughs, I'll post it here. MY PERSONAL FAVORITE accomplishment of Jesus Christ, which I stand in awe of, was His ability to unconditionally love and appreciate someone, even if the person had the personality of a ROTTING DOG CARCASS. LOL !!!

"One must see in every human being only that which is worthy of praise. When this is done, one can be a friend to the whole human race. If, however, we look at people from the standpoint of their faults, then being a friend to them is a formidable task.

It happened one day in the time of Christ -- may the life of the world be a sacrifice unto Him -- that He passed by the dead body of a dog, a carcass reeking, hideous, the limbs rotting away. One of those present said: 'How foul its stench!' And another said: 'How sickening! How loathsome!' To be brief, each one of them had something to add to the list.

But then Christ Himself spoke, and He told them: 'Look at that dog's teeth! How gleaming white!'

The Messiah's sin-covering gaze did not for a moment dwell upon the repulsiveness of that carrion. The one element of that dead dog's carcass which was not abomination was the teeth: and Jesus looked upon their brightness.

Thus is it incumbent upon us, when we direct our gaze toward other people, to see where they excel, not where they fail.

Praise be to God, thy goal is to promote the well-being of humankind and to help the souls to overcome their faults. This good intention will produce laudable results."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 169)

Orthodox

Is that story of jesus meant to be taken for real? Thank you all for the comments.

arthra

That story of Jesus and His dsiciples coming across the carion and so on is also well known and recorded in the recently published book "The Muslim Jesus" Sayings and Stories in Islamic Literature" edited and translated by Tarif Khalidi and published by Harvard University Press.. The particular story is found on p. 122 and is one of three hundred or so sayings and stories. An orientalist named Ignaz Goldzihar says the saying is of Buddhist origin...

bwb

A Muslim book of Jesus sayings quotes a Jewish orientalist that a Muslim saying about Jesus is of Buddhist origin? :rolleyes

Orthodox

Its certaint;y not found in early realiable document.

arthra

Yes you should read it ... It's well sourced. I think it may be avaialble on Amazon:

Amazon.com: The Muslim Jesus: Sayings and Stories in Islamic Literature (Convergences: Inventories of the Present) (9780674011151): Tarif Khalidi: Books

bwb

The hadith collection of Shi'ah Muslim sayings about Jesus is available for free here. You don't have to pay any money for it. Chapter 16 has the hadith about the dog carcass:
Jesus through Shiite Narrations

Keep in mind though, that Baha'is do not view any collection of hadiths as being entirely authenticated.

bwb

Sorry, I appreciate your efforts, thankyou so much for having your heart in the right place, but you accused 'Abdu'l-Baha of mistakenly attributing a saying of Buddha to Jesus, and then you failed to correct yourself about it. It also seems to have sailed over your head that the authors of this book may have an agenda to discredit Islam, or to discredit religion generally, which is quite common, and can involve bias, or outright deception.

Here it is on Google books, pages 122-123:

The Muslim Jesus: sayings and ... - Google Books

The Muslim Jesus: sayings and ... - Google Books

bwb

You can download "Jesus through Shiite Narrations" as a .zip file:
http://www.al-islam.org/jesus_shiite...s/download.zip

Download, unzip, then click on the index.htm file to open it.

Orthodox

Personally I think none of these stories can be trusted, as they come much to late and are most likely influenced by islamic ideas.

bwb

This one is quoted by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan. Before yesterday, I had no idea what the source was for this and the other quotation about Jesus. Thankyou for helping to enlighten me, Arthra. (Shoghi Effendi translates it more eloquently, though.)

Chapter 13 of Jesus through Shi-ite narrations:
6. Jesus said, “My servant is my hands and my mount is my feet; my bed is the earth and my pillow, a stone; my blanket in the winter is the east of the earth and my lamp in the night is the moon; my stew is hunger and my motto is fear; my clothing is wool and my fruit and my basil is what grows from the earth for the wild beasts and cattle. I sleep while I have nothing and I rise while I have nothing, and yet there is no one on earth more wealthy than I.”

(Bihàr, 14, 239, 17)

Thus Jesus, Son of Mary, whilst seated one day and speaking in the strain of the Holy Spirit, uttered words such as these: "O people! My food is the grass of the field, wherewith I satisfy my hunger. My bed is the dust, my lamp in the night the light of the moon, and my steed my own feet. Behold, who on earth is richer than I?" By the righteousness of God! Thousands of treasures circle round this poverty, and a myriad kingdoms of glory yearn for such abasement! Shouldst thou attain to a drop of the ocean of the inner meaning of these words, thou wouldst surely forsake the world and all that is therein, and, as the Phoenix wouldst consume thyself in the flames of the undying Fire.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 130)

Samoaga

Arthra:

You quoted the Guardian as follows.

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended

What do you think that Shoghi Effendi meant when he stated,".... the reality of the mystery of the Immculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed.." The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was something which was established to ensure us that Mary was born without original sin so her proginy could be a perfect sacrifice for our sins. Should Baha'is believe that?

bwb

No, 'Abdu'l-Baha clearly denies that there is any connection between the two. Christ was great due His attributes of perfection, not due to His having no physical father.


"THE GREATNESS OF CHRIST IS DUE TO HIS PERFECTIONS

A great man is a great man, whether born of a human father or not. If being without a father is a virtue, Adam is greater and more excellent than all the Prophets and Messengers, for He had neither father nor mother. That which causes honor and greatness is the splendor and bounty of the divine perfections. The sun is born from substance and form, which can be compared to father and mother, and it is absolute perfection; but the darkness has neither substance nor form, neither father nor mother, and it is absolute imperfection. The substance of Adam's physical life was earth, but the substance of Abraham was pure sperm; it is certain that the pure and chaste sperm is superior to earth.

Furthermore, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John, verses 12 and 13, it is said: "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on His name:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."[1]
[1 Cf. John 1:12-13.]

From these verses it is obvious that the being of a disciple also is not created by physical power, but by the spiritual reality. The honor and greatness of Christ is not due to the fact that He did not have a human father, but to His perfections, bounties and divine glory. If the greatness of Christ is His being fatherless, then Adam is greater than Christ, for He had neither father nor mother. It is said in the Old Testament, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."[1] Observe that it is said that Adam came into existence from the Spirit of life. Moreover, the expression which John uses in regard to the disciples proves that they also are from the Heavenly Father. Hence it is evident that the holy reality, meaning the real existence of every great man, comes from God and owes its being to the breath of the Holy Spirit.
[1 Gen. 2:7.]

The purport is that, if to be without a father is the greatest human glory, then Adam is greater than all, for He had neither father nor mother. Is it better for a man to be created from a living substance or from earth? Certainly it is better if he be created from a living substance. But Christ was born and came into existence from the Holy Spirit.

To conclude: the splendor and honor of the holy souls and the Divine Manifestations come from Their heavenly perfections, bounties and glory, and from nothing else."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 89)

bwb

I think that "mystery" may very well just mean "mystery" and you aren't going to find the answer. Virgin birth is an extremely rare anomaly in a human being, but I don't think that there is any reason to assume that it is scientifically impossible. Some species do reproduce asexually.

Orthodox

But not humans, I would have thought bahais take it metaphorically as it clearly denies science. A female egg needs a male sperm so as to make it possible. And the gospels make it clear Jesus was made incarnate, though he had existed for eternity.

InvestigateTruth

Baha'ullah Explained in 'Book of Iqan' the reason why God created Jesus, without a physical father. Basically, He explains that God tests His servents, so the True Believers may be known from unbelievers and doubters. and the Essensial believe is accepting this:

“God doeth whatsoever He willeth, and ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth,”

So, God's tests are in a way, that He does things contrary to what people can accept. As those who truley believe in God and search for God would accept.

these are from Iqan:

"And now, meditate upon this most great convulsion, this grievous test. Notwithstanding all these things, God conferred upon that essence of the Spirit, Who was known amongst the people as fatherless, the glory of Prophethood, and made Him His testimony unto all that are in heaven and on earth."

and about Moses:

"And now ponder in thy heart the commotion which God stirreth up. Reflect upon the strange and manifold trials with which He doth test His servants. Consider how He hath suddenly chosen from among His servants, and entrusted with the exalted mission of divine guidance Him Who was known as guilty of homicide, Who, Himself, had acknowledged His cruelty, and Who for well-nigh thirty years had, in the eyes of the world, been reared in the home of
Pharaoh and been nourished at his table. Was not God, the omnipotent King, able to withhold the hand of Moses from murder, so that manslaughter should not be attributed unto Him, causing bewilderment and aversion among the people? "

"Behold how contrary are the ways of the Manifestations of God, as ordained by the King of creation, to the ways and desires of men! As thou comest to comprehend the essence of these divine mysteries, thou wilt grasp the purpose of God, the divine Charmer, the Best-Beloved."

"And now, take heed, O brother! If such things be revealed in this Dispensation, and such incidents come to pass, at the present time, what would the people do? I swear by Him Who is the true Educator of mankind and the Revealer of the Word of God that the people would
instantly and unquestionably pronounce Him an infidel and would sentence Him to death."

Orthodox

It still contradicts science as it did not happen naturally, but by miracle of God, and from what I understand Bahai seem to reject miracles, as in real miracles of God breaking his own natural laws he has established. So why is the narrative in that part of the gospel real and the ressurection Metaphorical? The gospels give no indication of a change, none what so ever, I personally see it as picking and choosing which ones you want and which ones you don't.

bwb

To correct myself, Shoghi Effendi does refer to the Church Fathers in part of an essay which he wrote which analyzes why schism occured in Christianity and Islam, and why the Baha'i Faith is protected from similar schism by the fact that Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha gave explicit instructions in writing about the future leadership and administration of their religion.


"None, I feel, will question the fact that the fundamental reason why the unity of the Church of Christ was irretrievably shattered, and its influence was in the course of time undermined, was that the Edifice which the Fathers of the Church reared after the passing of His First Apostle was an Edifice that rested in nowise upon the explicit directions of Christ Himself. The authority and features of their administration were wholly inferred, and indirectly derived, with more or less justification, from certain vague and fragmentary references which they found scattered amongst His utterances as recorded in the Gospel. Not one of the sacraments of the Church; not one of the rites and ceremonies which the Christian Fathers have elaborately devised and ostentatiously observed; not one of the elements of the severe discipline they rigorously imposed upon the primitive Christians; none of these reposed on the direct authority of Christ, or emanated from His specific utterances. Not one of these did Christ conceive, none did He specifically invest with sufficient authority to either interpret His Word, or to add to what He had not specifically enjoined.

For this reason, in later generations, voices were raised in protest against the self-appointed Authority which arrogated to itself privileges and powers which did not emanate from the clear text of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and which constituted a grave departure from the spirit which that Gospel did inculcate. They argued with force and justification that the canons promulgated by the Councils of the Church were not divinely-appointed laws, but were merely human devices which did not even rest upon the actual utterances of Jesus. Their contention centered around the fact that the vague and inconclusive words, addressed by Christ to Peter, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church," could never justify the extreme measures, the elaborate ceremonials, the fettering creeds and dogmas, with which His successors have gradually burdened and obscured His Faith. Had it been possible for the Church Fathers, whose unwarranted authority was thus fiercely assailed from every side, to refute the denunciations heaped upon them by quoting specific utterances of Christ regarding the future administration of His Church, or the nature of the authority of His Successors, they would surely have been capable of quenching the flame of controversy, and preserving the unity of Christendom. The Gospel, however, the only repository of the utterances of Christ, afforded no such shelter to these harassed leaders of the Church, who found themselves helpless in the face of the pitiless onslaught of their enemy, and who eventually had to submit to the forces of schism which invaded their ranks."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 20)

Orthodox

Self appointed authority? Far from it. the Authority came from Christ which he gave to the apostles who gave it to their successors and so on and so on. The Church is not broken or shattered, far from it, it is alive and well and has maintained the truth of the fathers and the apostles. Schism can invade Bahai, all it takes is one Bahai who believes in something different from all other Bahai, perhaps the real ressurection and trinity. Such a belief can cause schism if it gets enough backing.

InvestigateTruth

Well, Baha'i faith says that religion must be in accordance with Science and Logic.
Regarding the virgin birth of Jesus, Abdul'baha explains in the Some Answered Questions that:
"the first man came into existence without father or mother—whether it be gradually or at once—there can remain no doubt that a man without a human father is also possible and admissible; you cannot consider this impossible; otherwise, you are illogical"

Regarding Miracles Abdul'Baha says:

"The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of
wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared. "
...."The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things."

Also, the recorded miracles do not serve a proof to the people that never seen them. That's why the only thing that logically we can rely as a proof, is the Book. The teachings. The fruits.


The Virigin Birth of Jesus not only does not serve as a proof, but also causes doubt in the mind. So, that's a test. Not a miracle to proof. If that would be a proof then, the Jews must have accepted Jesus.