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Old 03-03-2015, 06:52 AM   #1
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Judgment Day

"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ Has Begun!

The Judgment is Everlasting!

Today, Wednesday, November 25, 2015 A.D., is the 1,170th day in the 1,290 and 1,335 day periods of Daniel 12:11 & 12, respectively. (Jerusalem Time/Day beginning at sunset/International Dateline)

There are 165 days (including today) remaining until the Day of the Lord, Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., the First Year of the Judgment. (Malachi 4:5)

This is the Twenty-Fifth Day in the Third Month in the Years of Judgment began September 1, 2015 A.D., the Final Day of Indiction.

The final window for the Three Days of Darkness is December 27-29, 2018 A.D.

Regular update link : http://risen-from-the-dead.forumotion.com/

***

Original post :

Today, Tuesday, March 3, 2015 A.D., is the 903rd day in the counting of the 1,290 and 1,335 day periods of Daniel 12:11 & 12, respectively.

This means that in 387 days the "great noise" and fire of which St. Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10 shall come to be.

There will be a period of 3 days of darkness where only blessed matches and beeswax candles shall be able to provide light.

Last edited by Edward Palamar; 02-23-2017 at 08:18 AM. Reason: update
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:23 AM   #2
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I think those periods have passed already, but I'm interested in seeing your explanation to why they refer to the here-and-now.
 
Old 03-03-2015, 07:31 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
Today, Tuesday, March 3, 2015 A.D., is the 903rd day in the counting of the 1,290 and 1,335 day periods of Daniel 12:11 & 12, respectively.

This means that in 387 days the "great noise" and fire of which St. Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10 shall come to be.

There will be a period of 3 days of darkness where only blessed matches and beeswax candles shall be able to provide light.

Why would God make scripture so challenging and difficult to interpret?

“For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart.” -Hebrews 4:12

“Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books.” -Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan, p 49

Therefore, interpreting the scriptures is a testing for the purity of one’s faith and detachment from all save God in both the Bible and the Kitáb-i-Iqán.

The key to understanding interpretation of any scripture, including the Bible, is the Twofold Language.

“It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a two-fold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled, that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion... The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed.” -Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan, pp 254-255
(from a Handbook by David Young)
 
Old 03-03-2015, 01:40 PM   #4
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O Jesus, King of All Nations, May Your Reign Be Recognized On Earth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
I think those periods have passed already, but I'm interested in seeing your explanation to why they refer to the here-and-now.
I have been resurrected into the kingship of the personage in Daniel 11:3. My three older brothers are/were (one is deceased) kings of Persia, as was our common sire. The oldest of my brothers put to death our common sire (the fourth king of Persia). That left two remaining. There is further prophecy about this :

Century IV, #95 (Michel de Nostradame) :

The realm left to two they will hold it very briefly,
Three years and seven months passed by they will make war:
The two Vestals will rebel in opposition,
Victor the younger in the land of Brittany.

Once they began their war, there was no rule (reign of the antichrist). It is necessary however to know the date when the realm was left to two. The passing of the 2nd king of Persia was due to an automobile collision which carried with it grave complications to him. He became incoherent on February 12, 2009 A.D. That is the day when the "realm was left to two".

That brings the end of three years and seven months to September 11, 2012 A.D. The fulfillment of the abomination of desolation in terms of the kingships of Daniel, chapters 11 & 12, began September 12, 2012 A.D.

The beginning of the 45 day period (1,291 thru 1,335), akin to the 40 day Great Flood time span, will begin on Great and Holy Friday, March 25, 2016 A.D. (which is also a/the [the first of the Years of Judgment] Feast of the Annunciation). The Sunday after the Feast of the Ascension (ascension Thursday), May 8, 2016 A.D., is the 1,335th day, of which is written, "Blessed is he who waiteth and cometh unto 1,335 days."

Last edited by Edward Palamar; 11-23-2015 at 04:36 AM.
 
Old 03-03-2015, 01:54 PM   #5
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Heart of Jesus, King and Center of All Hearts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
Why would God make scripture so challenging and difficult to interpret?
It doesn't seem that way to me now, but many graces have come to me in order to interpret Daniel 12:11 & 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh View Post
The key to understanding interpretation of any scripture, including the Bible, is the Twofold Language.
Prophecy is basically confounding without interpretation, both are gifts of the Holy Spirit, though.
 
Old 03-03-2015, 10:32 PM   #6
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You may need to search further.

All Biblical Prophecy has been fulfilled.

God bless and regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 03-04-2015 at 01:44 AM.
 
Old 03-04-2015, 01:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
You may need to search further.
Christ says, "Seek, and ye shall find."

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
All Biblical Prophesy has been fulfilled.
How about a little English lesson? "Prophesy" is the verb form. "Prophecy" is the noun form. A prophet prophesies prophecy.

Care to try that sentence again?

Christ said that these are the days of vengeance, when everything written must be fulfilled, and he quoted Daniel with reference to the last days. He even foretold His return with regards to sending His angel again to prepare His way (Matt. 24:30).

This means that those kings in Daniel are real people at some point in time, not just events/persons in prophecy. For the past c. 500 years, the Protestant Bibles, and newer 'catholic' bibles, have gotten some of Daniel consistantly wrong concerning 11:20 & 21. Christ even foretold of such treachery.

There is a difference between saying that Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ, and that all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.

Last edited by Edward Palamar; 04-01-2015 at 01:06 AM. Reason: capitalization for "biblical"
 
Old 03-04-2015, 01:42 AM   #8
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Thank you for the lesson, I was no good at English.

I hope your seeking finds the answer.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 03-04-2015, 07:39 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
There is a difference between saying that Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ, and that all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.
He's not saying that "Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ". He's specifically referring to the Prophecies of Daniel, which as members of the Baha'i Faith, we believe have been fulfilled. Almost two hundred years ago, in fact.

I do disagree with Tony slightly. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say all Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled already. Though, the ones in Daniel I'd say have been solidly fulfilled.

And, of course, there's the mystery that one verse can have several meanings, and one prophecy can be fulfilled multiple times.

Now, for some specifics:
You mention Daniel 11:3. Daniel 11:2-4 read:

'"And now I will tell you the truth. Behold, three more kings are going to arise in Persia. Then a fourth will gain far more riches than all of them; as soon as he becomes strong through his riches, he will arouse the whole empire against the realm of Greece. 3"And a mighty king will arise, and he will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4"But as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four points of the compass, though not to his own descendants, nor according to his authority which he wielded, for his sovereignty will be uprooted and given to others besides them.'

This prophecy is very easy to follow if you're into Persian History. We are told there will be four more Persian Kings, and the fourth will become very rich and will invade Greece. This is given after Babylon falls to Persia and the Jews are liberated.

Cyrus the Great was king of Persia at the time of liberation.
Counting Kings from him we get:
1: Cambyses II
2: Bardiya (or, the magus Gaumata impersonating him, depending on the historian you ask)
3: Darius the Great
4: Xerxes the Great

Xerxes the Great, true to prophecy, does in fact lead a wealthy Persia and does invade Greece. Several terrible movie adaptations of this incident exist.

Next a mighty king will arise and do as he pleases. His land will be portioned up into four pieces and taken over by people not of his descent or authority. (other parts of Daniel mention the kingdom of silver (said directly to be Persia) falling to a kingdom of bronze (which would imply a military state), as well as state Persia will fall to Greece(Daniel 8, and Daniel 10))

This "mighty king" is thus assumed to be Alexander the Great, who conquered the Persian Empire. He died and his empire was, as prophesized, cut into four pieces by his generals, men not of his blood.

This prophecy fits historical events so well that most do not consider it to mean anything but predicting the Persian Kings and Alexander the Great. Its acknowledged as so eerily accurate that critics of the bible have often tried to prove it was written after Alexander the Great (although it appears to have been written much beforehand).

Since this prophecy seems solidly fulfilled, and Michel de Nostradame lived long after this fulfillment, so I'm not convinced his prophecies relate (although, as I mentioned, we Baha'is believe a prophecy can refer to multiple events and be fulfilled multiple times (see Abdul-Baha's commentaries on Ezekiel 43:4).

Alright, so you say that the 1,335 days starts from when there are only two kings?? Where (aside from Nostradamus) do you get this idea from, I must ask?? Daniel states that the period begins from when "daily sacrifice is taken away". In what way has this occurred in 2009?? In what way, additionally, has the period since then been an "Abomination of Desolation"??

Last edited by Walrus; 03-04-2015 at 07:41 AM.
 
Old 03-04-2015, 07:51 AM   #10
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Judgment Day has passed dear friend, although you may be unaware. Judgement day comes with every new Messenger of God. The next judgement day will not come for many hundreds of years into the future.

Good luck with your search.
bill
 
Old 03-04-2015, 12:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Judgment Day has passed dear friend, although you may be unaware. Judgement day comes with every new Messenger of God. The next judgement day will not come for many hundreds of years into the future.

Good luck with your search.
bill
Dear Bill - The Judgment day as I see it is the time between the Declaration on the New Messenger and of that of the next.

Thus we are all in Judgment Day, I do not see it as ceasing.

God bless and hope all is OK with you, you are well north of the Volcano! Regards Tony
 
Old 03-04-2015, 12:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
Christ says, "Seek, and ye shall find."



How about a little English lesson? "Prophesy" is the verb form. "Prophecy" is the noun form. A prophet prophesies prophecy.

Care to try that sentence again?

Christ said that these are the days of vengeance, when everything written must be fulfilled, and he quoted Daniel with reference to the last days. He even foretold His return with regards to sending His angel again to prepare His way (Matt. 24:30).

This means that those kings in Daniel are real people at some point in time, not just events/persons in prophecy. For the past c. 500 years, the Protestant Bibles, and newer 'catholic' bibles, have gotten some of Daniel consistantly wrong concerning 11:20 & 21. Christ even foretold of such treachery.

There is a difference between saying that Old Testament prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ, and that all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.
Dear friends please Consider "All" are not my words, here is one reference, there are many more!

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, Pages 12-14 - Bahai ...
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/.../gwb-10.htm...
The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled . ... hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His ...

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 03-04-2015, 12:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
Dear Bill - The Judgment day as I see it is the time between the Declaration on the New Messenger and of that of the next.

Thus we are all in Judgment Day, I do not see it as ceasing.

God bless and hope all is OK with you, you are well north of the Volcano! Regards Tony
Dear Tony, yes you are correct. I feel my wording has confused, for I said with and I quote myself "Judgement day comes with every new Messenger of God. The next judgement day will not come for many hundreds of years into the future." so when the new Messenger of God declares Him/Her self that will be the next Judgement day. So yes we are in Judgement day right now, it only ceases with the coming of the next.
 
Old 03-04-2015, 01:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Alright, so you say that the 1,335 days starts from when there are only two kings?? Where (aside from Nostradamus) do you get this idea from, I must ask?? Daniel states that the period begins from when "daily sacrifice is taken away". In what way has this occurred in 2009?? In what way, additionally, has the period since then been an "Abomination of Desolation"??
I've seen such analysis concerning Daniel 11, that Antiochus Epiphanes was who I am, etc. I have too much first hand fulfillment of chapter 11 to agree with any of it. As I stated in terms of kingship, it is obvious that 11:3 cannot rule due to 11:4, and the 2nd and 4th are deceased. That leaves the "rule left to two". Other quatrains relate some other details of those first three kings, my three older brothers. I have another brother about a week younger than me, due to incest. However, Christ used that crime of incest which fulfills Daniel 11:20, viz. "vile", to resurrect Judas Iscariot, who was a conjoined twin, diametrically opposed, until I received Holy Communion from "Gloria Olivae" of the St. Malachy Prophecy. I have gone before the resurrected Pontius Pilate explaining these things. That first king of Persia murdered both of his parents and his next younger brother. He is vile. I've seen him shoot at point blank range a District Justice. I witnessed his terrorizing his own family, and he even seeks to strangle to death those whom Christ has already resurrected. He is a liar and an embezzler, with attorneys no better, the "collector of taxes", when he should never have seen sunrise on October 2, 1955 A.D. On a 5/6ths basis, the County of Chester in PA is no better, save for the not guilty verdict rendered to me by the resurrected Pontius Pilate concerning false accusations by that vile king and the attack from the king of the south, 11:40, which became official on November 8, 2012 A.D.

I have been plundered, put to death more than once, dismembered, shot, stabbed, all fulfillment of conflict in that amazing chapter.

The 'bud' of the south was the king of France, yet he was employed in the U.S. Army at the time he axed off both my hands when I was about 6 years old. His son was killed, and that was foretold in a quatrain by Nostradamus.

I have much more evidence that all the older interpretations just don't fit. There is a case like that concerning the pontiffs, too. Everyone thinks that Benedict XVI and now Frances are/were the correct pontiffs, but they could only be what are called curates, at best. Again, if you look to the quatrains, there is one about the death of the very aged pontiff. This was interpreted earlier in the 20th century rather hastily, because no pontiff ever was as aged as John Paul II. That quatrain related that the next pontiff would be a Roman of good age. Cardinal Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) is German. But he was elected on the second day. If you study the quatrains enough, you will see that the Vatican election must have included "Gloria Olivae" and "Petrus Romanus" (of the St. Malachy Prophecy) simultaneously, on the first day. The rest has been a farce in terms of the mass media coverage.

Although chapter 11 and 12 are separate, that doesn't necessarily mean that some parts of each (and other chapter, too) do not overlap. The fact that there are seemingly major conundrums in church elections is something akin to Satan's effort to thwart the general resurrection which has already begun.

Last edited by Edward Palamar; 11-23-2015 at 06:20 AM.
 
Old 03-04-2015, 01:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
Judgment Day has passed dear friend, although you may be unaware. Judgement day comes with every new Messenger of God. The next judgement day will not come for many hundreds of years into the future.

Good luck with your search.
bill
Thank you. I use the term Judgment Day in regards to all those before Christ's Incarnation and what their perception, according to the Scripture they had at the time, meant. They did not have the Gospel, only inklings of it. But they had the exact day that Christ would be slain, and when something great would happen for 45 days, much like the Great Flood. The fact that one murdered man's incoherency has provided a link to piecing together prophecy is proof of this same seeming recurring Judgment Day. As when Christ gave up His spirit in atonement, we all have been granted Redemption, so does Christ visit those who die, with added blessings.
 
Old 03-04-2015, 03:19 PM   #16
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Why in film, is Xerxes always portrayed as being a baddy?
 
Old 03-05-2015, 05:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidan View Post
Why in film, is Xerxes always portrayed as being a baddy?
Ethnocentrism and Hellenistic propaganda mostly. Movies on the subject are largely made in the West, and thus filmmakers find Xerxes' Greek enemies are somehow more relatable then the Persian Empire of Xerxes. (even though the Spartans were a genuinely horrible, slave-and-warfare based society, and the Persians were a highly advanced, slave-free and multi-ethnic nation). That and many surviving historical accounts come from Greek sources (Alexander set fire to Persian books frequently during his conquest, the reason behind the now incomplete Avesta of Zoroaster) and are laden with Pan-Hellenistic propaganda, thus portraying all Persians as evil and Greeks as good.

So instead of


We get
 
Old 03-05-2015, 06:48 AM   #18
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I've seen such analysis concerning Daniel 11, that Antiochus Epiphanes was who I am, etc. I have too much first hand fulfillment of chapter 11 to agree with any of it.
That's all well and good but we, the random people you are talking too, don't have that firsthand experience so you'd need to explain it.

So you are Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire?? I must say I don't view Antiochus "God Manifest" as a Persian King, but rather a Greek occupier of Persia. And personally I'm not fond of your persecution of the Jews.

I find this odd since most interpretations of Daniel do include Antiochus... just not where you have placed him. He's not one of the four Persian kings, he's mentioned later, in Daniel 11:21, after the preceding verses (Daniel 11:5-20) go to great lengths to describe (in magnificently accurate detail) Seleucid Persia's war with Ptolemy Egypt, and Seleucid Persian history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
As I stated in terms of kingship, it is obvious that 11:3 cannot rule due to 11:4,
I'd say 11:4 implies that the Great King will rule, since it mentions his kingdom. It implies a short rule, but a rule none-the-less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
and the 2nd and 4th are deceased. That leaves the "rule left to two".
I'm not sure why you think the Great King must be among the four Persian kings mentioned in 11:2. I'm also unsure why you think the four kings will rule or exist simultaneously. Where do you get that notion??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
Other quatrains relate some other details of those first three kings, my three older brothers. I have another brother about a week younger than I, due to incest. However, Christ used that crime which fulfills Daniel 11:20,
What does 11:20 have to do with incest?? It describes the short rule of a king who burdens his land with taxation, and dies nonviolently after a short rule, ie it matches Antiochus IV Epiphanes' predecessor.

Additionally, this describes events that occurred LONG after the Great King's kingdom is partitioned into four parts. It has practically nothing to do with the Four Persian Kings, who rule before the Great King. Daniel 11:3 states "Then a mighty king shall arise" implying it happens after the four Persian kings, not simultaneously with. 11:20, which takes place AFTER the fall of that Great King, after his nation has been broken into fourths, and after many events and wars between the northern and southern portions. (Seleucid Dynasty and Ptolemy Dynasty, assuming Alexander the Great(the interpretation that still fits perfectly))

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
viz. "vile", to resurrect Judas Iscariot, who was a conjoined twin, diametrically opposed, until I received Holy Communion from "Gloria Olivae" of the St. Malachy Prophecy. I have gone before the resurrected Pontius Pilate explaining these things.
You're going to have to do a lot more explaining...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
That first king of Persia murdered both of his parents and his next younger brother.
As I stated, the events you quote later in Daniel 11 have nothing to do with the four kings, who chronologically in the prophecy occurred before the rest of the prophecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
He is vile. I've seen him shoot at point blank range a District Justice. I witnessed his terrorizing his own family, and he even seeks to strangle to death those whom Christ has already resurrected. He is a liar and an embezzler, with attorneys no better, the "collector of taxes", when he should never have seen sunrise on October 2, 1955 A.D.
Again, the collector of taxes in 11:20 arises QUITE A WHILE after the four kings mentioned in 11:2. How do you come to the conclusion that the figure described in 11:20 (after several major events and wars post-Great King) is the first king mentioned in 11:2?? (mentioned before the coming of the Great King even) It does not chronologically line up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
On a 5/6ths basis, the County of Chester in PA is no better, save for the not guilty verdict rendered to me by the resurrected Pontius Pilate concerning false accusations by that vile king and the attack from the king of the south, 11:40, which became official on November 8, 2012 A.D.
This again rather begs explanation and elaboration. We random Baha'is you are talking too are not experts in your life story, so you'll need to fill us in with more details if you want us to understand.

As for 11:40, how does "false accusations" refer to "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through." and how is it a better interpretation then a literal war that occurred between the Seleucid in the North and the Ptolemy in the South, both literal 1/4 kingdoms that literally broke off from the short-lived empire of a literal Great King and literally warred in the precise manner described??

And, again, the kings of the four parts of the Great King's nation are not the Four Persian Kings. Daniel 11:2-3 does state that AFTER the three kings arise in Persia will the Fourth King arise to wage war against Greece, and only AFTER him shall the "Great King" arise. The Four Kings do not occur simultaneously, and occur BEFORE the Great King arises, not after his empire is partitioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
I have been plundered, put to death more than once, dismembered, shot, stabbed, all fulfillment of conflict in that amazing chapter.
Elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
The 'bud' of the south was the king of France, yet he was employed in the U.S. Army at the time he axed off both my hands when I was about 6 years old. His son was killed, and that was foretold in a quatrain by Nostradamus.
Quote??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
I have much more evidence that all the older interpretations just don't fit.
Great!! Then provide them!! Because the old interpretations match with startling accuracy, so you've got quite a job to do!! The one's you are providing don't seem to line up with the chronology of the prophecy, whereas the chronology of Mesopotamian History lines up perfectly with the chronology of the prophecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
There is a case like that concerning the pontiffs, too. Everyone thinks that Benedict XVI and now Frances are/were the correct pontiffs, but they could only be what are called curates, at best.
You're aware that we're Baha'is, correct?? And you're aware what that means?? We don't think Francis is the "correct" pontiff, in fact we think there are no authoritative pontiffs. You have to convince us that authoritative pontiffs exist in the first place, not that the pontiffs are "incorrect".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
Again, if you look to the quatrains, there is one about the death of the very aged pontiff. This was interpreted earlier in the 20th century rather hastily, because no pontiff ever was as aged as John Paul II. That quatrain related that the next pontiff would be a Roman of good age. Cardinal Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) is German. But he was elected on the second day. If you study the quatrains enough, you will see that the Vatican election must have included "Gloria Olivae" and "Petrus Romanus" (of the St. Malachy Prophecy) simultaneously, on the first day. The rest has been a farce.
Yeah... please cite the Nostradamus quotes that you believe apply. Although I must say I'm not really a fan of Nostradumus. His prophecies are quite... vague. They're not like the straightforward and accurate Daniel, or Baha'u'llah, or Abdul-Baha, but rather ... interpretive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
Although chapter 11 and 12 are separate, that doesn't necessarily mean that some parts of each (and other chapter, too) do not overlap.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
The fact that there are seemingly major conundrums in church elections
Again, we're Baha'is. Not Catholics. Conundrums in church elections of a non-authoritative position are not shocking or concerning to us as they would be to a Catholic. You'd have to prove to us that these positions mattered in some way which, since our prophets have denounced the pontiff position's authority, would be a bit difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
is something akin to Satan's effort to thwart the general resurrection which has already begun.
Satan can't thwart anything. Plus we believe "general resurrection" has both begun and concluded (several times, in fact), so you'd have to show us this is not the case (or show it is happening again, which our prophecies say they will not for around 800 more years).

Last edited by Walrus; 03-05-2015 at 07:09 AM.
 
Old 03-05-2015, 08:46 AM   #19
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Perfect our wills.

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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Quote??
The main difference in our discourse concerns source. One from experience and the other from 'classic' interpretation. But the prophetic Book of Daniel is a commonater here. After reading through your reply and such statements that basically indicate a distinct form of writing and/or interpretation indigenous to Baha'i, it leaves me to wonder why you even attempt to interpret Daniel, as a basis of Catholicism can be found in Daniel 9:25-27. In Church history, it is credited to St. Ignatius of Antioch (where Christ's followers were first called Christians) to having first penned the word "catholic".

I'm piecing things together, too. What I'm seeing in Baha'i is more of a willingness to "recite", for instance, in terms of the Mohammedan vision of the angel Gabriel where he was instructed to do so.

But recite what? Early in His preaching, when Jesus recited a small passage of Scripture in His own hometown saying that 'this day this passage is fulfilled before you', they wanted to run Him off a cliff and kill Him right then and there. Yet He was right. So a basis for correct interpretation can be established from this early occurence in the Gospel.

As to how interpretations can be far different at times I'd like to show you the example concerning that Pontiff. This writing (interpretation) was around well before the Pontificate of John Paul II. The section entitled "The Reign of the Five Popes" not far from the top of the study :

The Last Pope: Examining Nostradamus and Malachy (No. 288)

As to how we both can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions, as well as answer some of your questions in better detail :

Synchromysticism Forum - View topic - The Great Event Thread

The main point about Daniel 11:3-4 is that those two things happen almost simultaneously, about as fast as one can read both verses. Being divided to the four winds of heaven is much more division than the classic interpretation you cite. And by the end of chapter 12, that division is called the abomination of desolation, sheer anarchy. It's here, and it's still coming. Christ said that if He doesn't shorten the days, there will be no one left, assuring us though that for the sake of His Elect, He will shorten the days.
 
Old 03-05-2015, 11:20 AM   #20
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The main difference in our discourse concerns source. One from experience and the other from 'classic' interpretation. But the prophetic Book of Daniel is a commonater here.
You mentioned earlier that you had proof the "classic" interpretation was incorrect. Might I again inquire you to detail this?? Again, we random people you bring this too do not have your "experience", and thus you need to explain it. I could also claim based on my "experience" my interpretations of this-or-that prophecy is true, but unless I explain my experiences to you, you wont be able to understand. Likewise we cannot understand unless you explain.

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Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
After reading through your reply and such statements that basically indicate a distinct form of writing and/or interpretation indigenous to Baha'i, it leaves me to wonder why you even attempt to interpret Daniel, as a basis of Catholicism can be found in Daniel 9:25-27. In Church history, it is credited to St. Ignatius of Antioch (where Christ's followers were first called Christians) to having first penned the word "catholic".
Are you aware of our interpretations of Daniel?? Especially in the verses you cite??

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Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
I'm piecing things together, too. What I'm seeing in Baha'i is more of a willingness to "recite", for instance, in terms of the Mohammedan vision of the angel Gabriel where he was instructed to do so.

But recite what? Early in His preaching, when Jesus recited a small passage of Scripture in His own hometown saying that 'this day this passage is fulfilled before you', they wanted to run Him off a cliff and kill Him right then and there. Yet He was right. So a basis for correct interpretation can be established from this early occurence in the Gospel.
Sorry, it's very hard to follow what you are writing, but you are saying that... Jesus claiming to fulfill Isaiah in Luke 4:21 sets forth a "basis for correct interpretation"?? If so... what are you saying this basis is??

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Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
As to how interpretations can be far different at times I'd like to show you the example concerning that Pontiff. This writing (interpretation) was around well before the Pontificate of John Paul II. The section entitled "The Reign of the Five Popes" not far from the top of the study :

The Last Pope: Examining Nostradamus and Malachy (No. 288)
As to how we both can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions, as well as answer some of your questions in better detail :

Synchromysticism Forum - View topic - The Great Event Thread
Not really something you need to show to me. I'm aware of how varied interpretations of prophecy (especially on Nostradamus, who is somewhat vague) can vary over time. The problem I have is not accepting that people can have different interpretations, but rather a twofold problem:
1. I do not understand how your claimed interpretation fulfills the prophecy, largely because you are only providing pieces of your story and not the whole, and (from my perspective) it looks like a piecemeal assortment of different, unrelated parts of Daniel's Prophecy shown to correspond with different events.
2. The prophecy of Daniel fits so well with Historical accounts of Xerxes, Alexander, and the Seleucids and Ptolemys that I (currently) fully accept that the prophecies refer to those incidents. You claim they do not truly correspond with this, but have thusfar declined to elaborate.

Both problems can be solved if you elaborate on each, and thus I continue to invite you to do so.

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The main point about Daniel 11:3-4 is that those two things happen almost simultaneously, about as fast as one can read both verses.
It can, though there is a historical event that matches these two verses flawlessly, and did not happen that fast. And you have not yet elaborated on how this applies to you, so I currently have no reason to believe they have occurred that fast. Just because they can happen in a way does not mean they have. I again inquire for further information about your claim.

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Being divided to the four winds of heaven is much more division than the classic interpretation you cite.
Another problem I note is that you speak as if I have perfect knowledge of your life. I have no idea what you are referring to in this sentence, because you have yet to explain anything like it.

Go slower, more methodical, more calmly, more careful, and explain.

Don't start at the end, but start at the beginning.

Build up the story, instead of saying things like "Being divided to the four winds of heaven is much more division than the classic interpretation you cite" without bothering to first explain how or what has been divided "to the four winds of heaven."

Can you honestly expect me to figure out exactly how this statement applies to you from the scant you have provided me??

I tried Googling your name in an attempt to try to piece together your whole story. I find posts from you here and there, but it's all pieces of one overall story, and it is VERY hard to piece it all together without having lived it personally. Can I ask for the whole, complete story, and not just scraps??

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And by the end of chapter 12, that division is called the abomination of desolation, sheer anarchy. It's here, and it's still coming. Christ said that if He doesn't shorten the days, there will be no one left, assuring us though that for the sake of His Elect, He will shorten the days.
As Baha'is we do believe the abomination of desolation has occurred, but we believe it has ended with the Second Coming of Christ, which occurred almost 200 years ago. Are you aware of our views on this?? Should I elaborate??
 
Old 03-05-2015, 12:18 PM   #21
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O Jesus, King of All Nations, May Your Reign Be Recognized On Earth!

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Are you aware of our views on this?
I find the use of the word "our" in that case to be a bit strained (you even used two question marks). But "our" would not be correct as salvation is from the Jews, and the prophecy from the Israelite Daniel is concerning Israel, not other nations which attempt to put on her coat.

There is prophecy about foreign kingdoms in Daniel, but such 'classic' interpretations only stem from the pride of such nations in their individual conquests, and here again, it is more the work of Satan than the Spirit of God.

All prophecy is inspired of God, and so is interpretation. It is only God's enemy that seeks to uproot such inspiration.

You've gone on about my 'claim', yet your invading armies can only boast of robbery. Actually speaking with the king of Daniel 11:21 will put you face to face with all manner of implication with that verse. My 'claim', as you say, includes the knowledge that all others despise me at some point in time, for that verse says, "one despised", and it is the inerrant word of God. At what point of time others arrive at a knowledge that they can continue with me without hating me is something of a leap of faith on their part.

As the Baptist, I said to Christ, "I have need to be baptized by you."

I'm getting that right now.

He quoted Scripture about Himself, so can I. His family and nation hated Him, so does mine. Read Century 10, #20. They haven't proven that I am rude in letters, only that they judge me to be so. The enemies of Christ are the same as the enemies of the AntiChrist.
 
Old 03-05-2015, 12:46 PM   #22
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I find the use of the word "our" in that case to be a bit strained (you even used two question marks).
Our as in referring to the Baha'is. To whom you are speaking. I take it you are unaware then??

My overabundance of punctuation is a compulsion, I apologize. You'll be seeing a lot more of it. I do it without realizing it really.

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Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
But "our" would not be correct as salvation is from the Jews, and the prophecy from the Israelite Daniel is concerning Israel, not other nations which attempt to put on her coat.

There is prophecy about foreign kingdoms in Daniel, but such 'classic' interpretations only stem from the pride of such nations in their individual conquests, and here again, it is more the work of Satan than the Spirit of God.
The Jews were the first ones to posit that it was about Hellenistic conquest. Really, with all the things it says about the tyrannical Hellenic leaders, do you really think the Greeks posited the view that the prophecy was about them??

Well, that and the fact the word "Greece" is used in the prophecy identifying them.

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All prophecy is inspired of God, and so is interpretation. It is only God's enemy that seeks to uproot such inspiration.
Love and Hate are the antithesis to Detachment. Strive to eliminate them and you will see no enemies. I am no enemy, I seek knowledge where I can find it, and am open to all sources.

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You've gone on about my 'claim', yet your invading armies can only boast of robbery.
My invading armies, eh?? I was unaware I was a Greek. Simply explain your position and I will listen. But I cannot accept a position I have not heard. Thus you will have to elaborate.

I cannot convince you of the importance of wei wu wei if I refuse to explain the concept, can I??

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Actually speaking with the king of Daniel 11:21 will put you face to face with all manner of implication with that verse.
So we agree as to the identity of Daniel 11:21 I see. Good!!

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Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
My 'claim', as you say, includes the knowledge that all others despise me at some point in time, for that verse says, "one despised", and it is the inerrant word of God. At what point of time others arrive at a knowledge that they can continue with me without hating me is something of a leap of faith on their part.
I hate not and despise not. That would be contrary to my admittedly ambitious goal of realizing the Fifth Valley and attaining detachment.

Leaps of faith are all well and good, but when the Bab is asked to explain how he fulfilled Shayki prophecy by Mulla Husayn he explained. When the disciples asked Jesus to explain he read the scriptures and explained how he fulfilled them. The Prophet Baha'u'llah wrote an entire book explaining how he related to prophecies.

If you fulfill the prophecies, please explain how. It would be interesting and insightful no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Edward Palamar View Post
As the Baptist, I said to Christ, "I have need to be baptized by you."

I'm getting that right now.

He quoted Scripture about Himself, so can I. His family and nation hated Him, so does mine. Read Century 10, #20. They haven't proven that I am rude in letters, only that they judge me to be so. The enemies of Christ are the same as the enemies of the AntiChrist.
It seems possible that you are looking to provoke this hate perhaps?? If so, I'm afraid you'll find it not here. I doubt your Nation hates you at the moment, Google seems to know little about you.

I don't despise you, rather I still am interested in seeing what there is to learn from you, and again humbly request an elaboration and explanation.

Last edited by Walrus; 03-05-2015 at 12:49 PM.
 
Old 03-05-2015, 01:09 PM   #23
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Interesting discussion Walrus, if it was not the Fast I would grab a coffee and biscuit and sit down and watch this unfold!

God bless all and Regards Tony
 
Old 03-05-2015, 03:52 PM   #24
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Strenghten our memories.

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invading armies
That is in reference to those classic interpretations again. I'm not trying to provoke. I find your detail and pacificity in earnest. That's a good thing.

There is another way to see the coming Judgment, in terms of the Fatima prophecy. When the apparitions occurred in 1917 A.D., a further war was foretold if men would not amend their lives. Many are the examples of the heedlessness that led to WWII. And Our Lady of the Nations has foretold WWIII. According to that prophecy it began in 1981 A.D., when the Pontiff John Paul II was shot. It is to last for 35 years and include a 2/3rds reduction in the global population. This leaves a short window remaining. After all is said and done, 2017 A.D., one hundred years later from the original Fatima prophecy, will be a year of complete Judgment. This year of 2015 A.D. includes the final total year of non-Judgment as regards the Liturgical Year, and the beginning of the first year of Judgment, but it is partial in that the 45 days will not happen until 2016 A.D. After the 1,335th day will be complete Judgment. The reckoning of the civil year and the Church year have overlapped due to established beginnings and ends.

Interpolating Chapters 11 & 12 of Daniel into this time frame is not in accord with previous interpretation. The angel told Daniel to seal up those things for the end time. That is why hasty interpretations fall short, and actually exclude the very people to whom the prophecy was originally given, yet God Himself has grafted them back into the vine. The name "Gloria Olivae" from the St. Malachy prophecy indicates the Pontiff who was born during the forming of the current State of Israel, and that prophecy is from 1190 A.D. Although you profess to Detachment, that doesn't mean the rest of society follows suit. The very fact that such interpretation excludes Israel is a fulfillment of what Christ said, that "you will be hated by all". It is also indicative of the workings of the mystery of iniquity, explained by St. Paul, and also foretold in Daniel 8:23, "when sinners have reached their measure."
 
Old 03-06-2015, 08:44 AM   #25
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That is in reference to those classic interpretations again.
Ah. Got it. You are unaware of Baha'i interpretations on Daniel. Thus, I'll explain our views on Daniel as we see it. It's not wholly "classic".

Before I get into it, though, I'd like to again invite you to share your story and explain how you interpret these prophecies and their fulfillment. Right now, it seems, we are trying to discuss interpretations of the Book of Daniel whilst neither of us truly knows or understands the interpretations the other is using. This is why I keep asking for your elaboration, and inquiring if you knew of Baha'i interpretations on this book. I still have no straight answer on the matter of your knowledge on Baha'i interpretations of Daniel, but your more comments leave me mostly certain you are unaware of our views.

So I'll share our interpretation of Daniel, then I hope you will share yours, and then the discussion can proceed with insight.

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There is another way to see the coming Judgment, in terms of the Fatima prophecy. When the apparitions occurred in 1917 A.D., a further war was foretold if men would not amend their lives. Many are the examples of the heedlessness that led to WWII.
Indeed. Our prophets and holy men in the Baha'i Faith made similar prophecies. Baha'u'llah spoke of Germany's involvement in the two World Wars in the mid 1800's.

Abdul-Baha additionally in 1912 travelled around the world warning that, in two years time, the Battle of Armageddon would start from "a spark in the Balkans" that would "set flame to all of Europe."

So it seems we share views on the apocalyptic significance of the World Wars. Specifically, we Baha'is believe it was Armageddon.

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And Our Lady of the Nations has foretold WWIII. According to that prophecy it began in 1981 A.D., when the Pontiff John Paul II was shot. It is to last for 35 years and include a 2/3rds reduction in the global population.
We additionally have rather dire prophecies about the coming times. So we've that in common as well.

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This leaves a short window remaining
Indeed. Should be interesting to see what happens soon.

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After all is said and done, 2017 A.D., one hundred years later from the original Fatima prophecy, will be a year of complete Judgment. This year of 2015 A.D. includes the final total year of non-Judgment as regards the Liturgical Year, and the beginning of the first year of Judgment, but it is partial in that the 45 days will not happen until 2016 A.D. After the 1,335th day will be complete Judgment. The reckoning of the civil year and the Church year have overlapped due to established beginnings and ends.

Interpolating Chapters 11 & 12 of Daniel into this time frame is not in accord with previous interpretation. The angel told Daniel to seal up those things for the end time. That is why hasty interpretations fall short, and actually exclude the very people to whom the prophecy was originally given, yet God Himself has grafted them back into the vine.
Quite so!! We as Baha'is thoroughly believe this to be true. We have one difference from your views, though, in that we believe the End Time has come already, and gone!! We thus view the prophecy has been unsealed, and the meaning made clear.

Here's the best explanation I could find of the common Baha'i interpretation: I, Daniel
 
Old 03-06-2015, 01:59 PM   #26
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Amazing

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So it seems we share views on the apocalyptic significance of the World Wars. Specifically, we Baha'is believe it was Armageddon.
I view Armageddon as involving all conflict, in a generic sense. The story of Cain and Abel is the first Biblical account of something along those lines, but one could extend it even further to the very temptation of Eve.

I also see why we are having some difficulties in understanding each other after reading some of the link you provided. I had mentioned Daniel 11:40, which is 11:25 in the Riggs.

There are also translation differences. My first recollection of being attacked was on October 1, 1955 A.D. But I did not sit at table with the king of the south until November 8, 2012 A.D. And I told him at that time to mark this date on his calendar because this day is fulfillment of 11:40 (Riggs 11:25). If we can't agree on this, further discussion is pointless, especially from my standpoint, because I was attacked on that day by that king without provocation from me. Plain and simple.

Last edited by Edward Palamar; 03-06-2015 at 02:00 PM. Reason: clarity
 
Old 03-06-2015, 04:50 PM   #27
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What do you mean that "I" was attacked on that day with no provocation from "Me"?

Regards Tony
 
Old 03-06-2015, 06:21 PM   #28
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What do you mean that "I" was attacked on that day with no provocation from "Me"?

Regards Tony
What, are you an existentialist?
 
Old 03-06-2015, 11:28 PM   #29
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What, are you an existentialist?
Dear Edward

I am but the Black in the eye of a dead ant, but that distraction did not get an answer to my question posted to you.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Old 03-07-2015, 12:06 AM   #30
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Perfect our wills.

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I am but the Black in the eye of a dead ant, but that distraction did not get an answer to my question posted to you.
For one thing, I didn't capitalize the "m" in "me". I added two more capitals to my signature, though, since.

Would you like to repeat your question in the form of a question, rather than a riddle?

Sobriety helps, too.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 02:12 AM   #31
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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I have no more questions.

God bless you and all regards Tony
 
Old 03-07-2015, 02:32 AM   #32
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Sobriety helps, too.
For the record, Baha'is are forbidden consumption of alcoholic beverages. This is not some afterthought, but directly from Baha'u'llah, Himself.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 05:30 AM   #33
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Dear Edward

I am but the Black in the eye of a dead ant, but that distraction did not get an answer to my question posted to you.

God bless and regards Tony
Dear fish,

Ever heard of one-upmanship? If the fish is but the Black in the eye of a dead ant, the gnat is the memory of the shadow of the Black in the eye of a dead gnat. :-)

gnat

P. S. Re: the Monty Python sketch The Four Yorkshiremen

Last edited by gnat; 03-07-2015 at 05:35 AM.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 06:57 AM   #34
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That's all well and good but we, the random people you are talking too, don't have that firsthand experience so you'd need to explain it.
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This "mighty king" is thus assumed to be Alexander the Great,
Reading of Riggs' "Pragmatic Intuition" contains the notion of possible improvement upon the work of another. It is much like the way Darwin admitted that if it could be shown that there was something so profound, he would recant his theory. He didn't have access to the Hubble telescope, nor an electron microscope, where we have learned that every living cell contains an imprint of an individuals entire structure. Hence we have the term irreducible complexity, the basis for which Darwin would have recanted.

But as these things have been sealed, the verb form "assumed" above is correct. It is such a sealing that the evidence can only be examined after the fact.

I wasn't even a full week into that term of pregnancy as that "mighty king", and I was shot with two rounds from a .22 caliber revolver. And this is no assumption, the evidence doesn't lie. My mother eventually died from that attack on October 1, 1955 A.D. on August 11, 2013 A.D. from sepsis caused by the weakening of the abdominal wall due to the assault from those projectiles fired into her by her eldest son.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 07:02 AM   #35
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So you are Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid Empire?
No. The interpretation concerning him is wrong.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 07:12 AM   #36
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For some odd reason, this gnat starts to feel that this thread is moving very far from 'Abdu'l-Bahá's advice to "tread the spiritual path with practical feet".

best,

from a

gnat, who's beginning to feel like the unmentioned reference to the memory of the shadow of the Black in the eye of a dead gnat.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 07:20 AM   #37
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"tread the spiritual path with practical feet".
Which should include some modicum of respect for what sealing means.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 10:31 AM   #38
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Dear fish,

Ever heard of one-upmanship? If the fish is but the Black in the eye of a dead ant, the gnat is the memory of the shadow of the Black in the eye of a dead gnat. :-)

gnat

P. S. Re: the Monty Python sketch The Four Yorkshiremen
Yes I have to apologise after posting that I realised that a misquoted passage made me consider how important I had made myself and was very ashamed.

I Thank you for pointing that out and try as we may we will always put more on our importance than we should!

God bless and regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 03-07-2015 at 12:35 PM.
 
Old 03-07-2015, 02:24 PM   #39
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I find this odd since most interpretations of Daniel do include Antiochus... just not where you have placed him. He's not one of the four Persian kings, he's mentioned later, in Daniel 11:21, after the preceding verses (Daniel 11:5-20) go to great lengths to describe (in magnificently accurate detail) Seleucid Persia's war with Ptolemy Egypt,
and Seleucid Persian history.
The only two English translations that have Daniel 11:20 right are the Wycliffe and the Douay-Rheims. And the Douay-Rheims has that added erroneous ascription concerning Antiochus, too. I'm not sure whether that was included at the time of its first printing or later. It is included in a footnote. Wycliffe was condemned by a lording council, yet he was actually the first to translate that verse correctly. Most other versions add the "vile" to Daniel 11:21.

As to "magnificently accurate", I heard the very words which provoked (stirred up) the sons of the king of the south (Daniel 11:10) on the late evening/early morning of June 25, 1956 A.D. - to quote, "Here's your king." Here again, the evidence doesn't lie and the seal hasn't been broken.

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I'd say 11:4 implies that the Great King will rule, since it mentions his kingdom. It implies a short rule, but a rule none-the-less.
It's explicit.

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I'm not sure why you think the Great King must be among the four Persian kings mentioned in 11:2. I'm also unsure why you think the four kings will rule or exist simultaneously. Where do you get that notion??
He who sired me is the fourth king of Persia (he also sired the first three), and the description of his wealth is greater than the other three, hence he could be seen as "a" great king. Nostradamus wrote a quatrain about the son of the great king, lusting to enjoy his first cousin. I remember being that very way when I was about 5 years old before I ever read that quatrain. My cousin was born alive but her twin brother was apparently stabbed by the third king of Persia, who is my next oldest brother. There is a quatrain about his death, too.

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What does 11:20 have to do with incest?? It describes the short rule of a king who burdens his land with taxation, and dies nonviolently after a short rule, ie it matches Antiochus IV Epiphanes' predecessor.
Have you ever wondered why the Bible says, "I will set thy foot to stumble, but I will not let thee fall", yet in Daniel 11:19 we read that "he will stumble, fall, and not be found". That king of Daniel 11:19 is the fourth king of Persia, who was put to death by the first king of Persia. That first king of Persia became the 'tax collector' king of Daniel 11:20, and local government supported the murder for over 40 years of his life until, to quote another quatrain, "he who was not afraid to die, dies a cruel death". And that king of Daniel 11:20 has his end of destruction already included in the prophecy. Some other quatrains go into further detail.

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after the four Persian kings
Exactly, I've been called the 'baby' of the family.

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As for 11:40, how does "false accusations" refer to "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him . . ."
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania failed to inspect my vehicle, yet accused me of failing. Plain and simple. It was the second time that it did this, the first time was against the fourth king of Persia, and the Commonwealth sentenced him to death for it, serving as cover for the first king of Persia. It's quite cloak and dagger, actually. It's encased with the very fuel necessary for the heavens and the earth to pass away, as Christ said about a tittle of the law failing. Thus the need for the Brown Scapular and Rosary. Tada!
 
Old 03-07-2015, 02:30 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
Great!! Then provide them!! Because the old interpretations match with startling accuracy, so you've got quite a job to do!! The one's you are providing don't seem to line up with the chronology of the prophecy, whereas the
chronology of Mesopotamian History lines up perfectly with the chronology of the prophecy.
If those classic interpretations weren't written after 1948, how could they possibly include Israel, to whom the prophecy was orginally given?
 
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