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Old 04-30-2016, 10:27 AM   #1
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Are Catholics not Chistian?

Dear friends a question for my Catholic friends, do Catholics consider themselves Christians or not?
Had a lovely visit from my new doctor yesterday, as I am getting very weak and ill, when asked how I was I stated happy to be close to passing to the next world, had the usual response that I must need a psychologist. Why I asked her Are you not a Christian? Do you not believe in an afterlife? Then she told me that she was not a Christian, she was a Catholic, this surprised me as I understood Catholics were Christians.

Please explain to a weak old man.

bill
 
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Old 04-30-2016, 02:59 PM   #2
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Dear Bill, as a former RC, I can say that Catholics are assuredly Christian beyond any doubt. However in some contexts, N Ireland being an example, the word "Christian" has been hijacked by evangelical Protestants whom feel that only they have a right to the term. Unfortunately therefore, many who aren't evangelical shy away from the word because of the connotation I've mentioned. I hope this helps, old friend
 
Old 04-30-2016, 03:35 PM   #3
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Unfortunately the same is true in some parts of the United States. I don't understand any theological attempt to argue they are not Christian. The argument is purely about labels, as I understand it. It saddens me.
 
Old 05-03-2016, 10:38 AM   #4
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conversely, the catholic encyclopedia, CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christianity, offers that Christianity in the context they discuss it is only regarding Catholicism. This article doesnt imply the heretical and schismatic Christians are not Christian necessariyl, but not in the context of the universal church, as I understand it.

Growing up as a Jehovah's Witness I was told quite earnestly in, I think, middle school by a girl I had previously thought pretty cute, that I was NOT a Christian and would in fact burn in hell, when she discovered my religiuos identity, which was not hard, dodging getting beaten up regularly for not saluting the flag was kind of a giveaway. I was more offended about the not-a-Christian thing than the burning-soul-bit, at the time. But I got over it. you hear me Karen?


In such a way, I suppose that Baha'is who adhere to the covernant, we do not consider some of the tiny breakaway covenant breaking groups to be in the strictest sense Baha'i, and yet also we have Abdu'l Baha's far more encompassing (And yet strangely harder to realize) definition of Baha'i that does not take card-carrying signatures into account.

Labels labels..
 
Old 05-03-2016, 03:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noogan View Post
conversely, the catholic encyclopedia, CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christianity, offers that Christianity in the context they discuss it is only regarding Catholicism. This article doesnt imply the heretical and schismatic Christians are not Christian necessariyl, but not in the context of the universal church, as I understand it.

Growing up as a Jehovah's Witness I was told quite earnestly in, I think, middle school by a girl I had previously thought pretty cute, that I was NOT a Christian and would in fact burn in hell, when she discovered my religiuos identity, which was not hard, dodging getting beaten up regularly for not saluting the flag was kind of a giveaway. I was more offended about the not-a-Christian thing than the burning-soul-bit, at the time. But I got over it. you hear me Karen?

In such a way, I suppose that Baha'is who adhere to the covernant, we do not consider some of the tiny breakaway covenant breaking groups to be in the strictest sense Baha'i, and yet also we have Abdu'l Baha's far more encompassing (And yet strangely harder to realize) definition of Baha'i that does not take card-carrying signatures into account.

Labels labels..
JW don't salute the flag? What about JW members of services?
 
Old 05-03-2016, 06:07 PM   #6
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JW don't salute the flag? What about JW members of services?
They will go to prison before joining armed services, even if compelled by law.
 
Old 05-04-2016, 04:47 AM   #7
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Push towards Unity

They are doing wonderful things in Australia




Regards Tony
 
Old 05-04-2016, 02:40 PM   #8
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Francis is living up to one of his titles "Pontifax maximus", ie greatest bridge-builder
 
Old 05-06-2016, 12:52 PM   #9
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beloved friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
Dear Bill, as a former RC, I can say that Catholics are assuredly Christian beyond any doubt. However in some contexts, N Ireland being an example, the word "Christian" has been hijacked by evangelical Protestants whom feel that only they have a right to the term. Unfortunately therefore, many who aren't evangelical shy away from the word because of the connotation I've mentioned. I hope this helps, old friend
Labels, how sad. Who has rhe right of applying labels?
How sad that people try to take over the right of God. Who knows better than He who is what?
Dear Aidan thanks for clearing up fo me strange things happening on the forum.
Give Harry a scatch behind the ears for Harry
 
Old 05-06-2016, 01:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Neal View Post
Unfortunately the same is true in some parts of the United States. I don't understand any theological attempt to argue they are not Christian. The argument is purely about labels, as I understand it. It saddens me.
Neal, Noogan and Tony thanks for your input into how judgemental many are.
How sad the world is.
How sad that people do not realize, that one can be a jew a Christian a Muslim etc without the OK of people of different faiths, only God has that right Is this part of trying to be partners with God?
 
Old 05-06-2016, 01:02 PM   #11
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Love and best wishes to my dear sister in Iran, news to all, bad fall no broken bones, plowed up a little soil and then smoothed it out with my stomach. loving regards to all.
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:00 PM   #12
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Bill I understand how devastating a fall can be to a man of your ears. I'm delighted that your physically unscathed and pray that the same is true mentally
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:01 PM   #13
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Is something wrong with our wee sis Maryam?
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AidanK View Post
Is something wrong with our wee sis Maryam?
I have been praying for her, have not heard as her last reply was over 3 weeks ago. Since the "Leaving the Forum" Thread.

I do worry there is a reason behind that, We are and will be always with you Maryamr

God bless and Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 05-06-2016 at 03:39 PM.
 
Old 05-07-2016, 11:44 AM   #15
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mentally

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Bill I understand how devastating a fall can be to a man of your ears. I'm delighted that your physically unscathed and pray that the same is true mentally
Dear friend that is something many people have been wondering for years, my mental state. leave the experts to decide, smile.
 
Old 05-07-2016, 11:48 AM   #16
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An angel of faith

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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
I have been praying for her, have not heard as her last reply was over 3 weeks ago. Since the "Leaving the Forum" Thread.

I do worry there is a reason behind that, We are and will be always with you Maryamr

God bless and Regards Tony
Dear friends from what I understand is very dangerous for her at this time. So to you beloved sister guard your security we understand and know and be assured each and every one here in the forum send you love and pray for your protection.
bill
 
Old 05-08-2016, 06:59 PM   #17
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...Growing up as a Jehovah's Witness...
Whoa, that is SO NEAT!! Reason being that for several months the wife & I had over at the house here a couple JW's and we studied the Bible together. There are a lot of things the JW's & the Baha'is have in common (partial list available upon request) but it kind of ground to a stop after a while, the husband kept disagreeing w/ me saying I was wrong no matter what (even when I was telling him that I agreed w/ him) and it was such a contrast to how nicely things had gone for many weeks at first.

Anyway, back at the begining what we'd done is we skipped over all the stuff we agreed on (Bible's the word of God, we are now in the time of the end, Christ's presence has come again, etc.) and we were doing fine until we went from Mathew 24 over to Daniel 8 and all of a sudden we could no longer focus on the Bible --so it seemed.

Long story --but the JW.org website spells out nicely in their FAQ's that we really really should be able to study together. So. Whenever you get a chance I'd be soooo grateful if u cud share ur thots on if u think there's any hope in re-establishing our Bible study or tell me how maybe I just need new JW's to work w/.

I'd love studying the Bible w/ Baha'is too but the ones I know got a lot more they're already studying. At any rate, do let me know.

Pete
 
Old 05-08-2016, 07:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
Whoa, that is SO NEAT!! Reason being that for several months the wife & I had over at the house here a couple JW's and we studied the Bible together. There are a lot of things the JW's & the Baha'is have in common (partial list available upon request) but it kind of ground to a stop after a while, the husband kept disagreeing w/ me saying I was wrong no matter what (even when I was telling him that I agreed w/ him) and it was such a contrast to how nicely things had gone for many weeks at first.

Anyway, back at the begining what we'd done is we skipped over all the stuff we agreed on (Bible's the word of God, we are now in the time of the end, Christ's presence has come again, etc.) and we were doing fine until we went from Mathew 24 over to Daniel 8 and all of a sudden we could no longer focus on the Bible --so it seemed.

Long story --but the JW.org website spells out nicely in their FAQ's that we really really should be able to study together. So. Whenever you get a chance I'd be soooo grateful if u cud share ur thots on if u think there's any hope in re-establishing our Bible study or tell me how maybe I just need new JW's to work w/.

I'd love studying the Bible w/ Baha'is too but the ones I know got a lot more they're already studying. At any rate, do let me know.

Pete
Pete - I had a next door neighbor and we had many hours of Talk over quite a few years and yes they share many thoughts that we have as Baha'i's.

In the end all you can do is talk, there is no magic solution, but Gods gift in their heart.

They are a great companion in our Path to Unity.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-08-2016, 07:19 PM   #19
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...all you can do is talk, there is no magic solution...
--talk is good, studying together, significant conversations, these are 'core activities' in the Plan. On top of that we make new friends.

Your neighbors, did y'all just get bored or are u still chatting together or was there some kind of problem? Where me and my JW friend got hung up is he did not seem to want to follow the Bible but rather his instead he clung to his orthodoxy. Now I can like orthodoxy as much as the next guy but only if we're on topic but we'd go from the numbers in Daniel chapter 8 over to what the 'soul' is and before we could look at the sacred text about the soul we'd be hung up somewhere else.

Enough of my problems. Please share your successes and my hope is t figure out if I can invite my same JW pal back or maybe he's secretly at war w/ me or something.

btw, it's sure nice to hear from you again...

Pete
 
Old 05-08-2016, 07:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
--talk is good, studying together, significant conversations, these are 'core activities' in the Plan. On top of that we make new friends.

Your neighbors, did y'all just get bored or are u still chatting together or was there some kind of problem? Where me and my JW friend got hung up is he did not seem to want to follow the Bible but rather his instead he clung to his orthodoxy. Now I can like orthodoxy as much as the next guy but only if we're on topic but we'd go from the numbers in Daniel chapter 8 over to what the 'soul' is and before we could look at the sacred text about the soul we'd be hung up somewhere else.

Enough of my problems. Please share your successes and my hope is t figure out if I can invite my same JW pal back or maybe he's secretly at war w/ me or something.

btw, it's sure nice to hear from you again...

Pete
Nice to see you too Pete

We just keep talking about it, in the end my friend who is very knowledgeable in recalling biblical passages, would have most of the conversation. It was always a fun talk. I found the diversion from the subject is par for the course. The reason is there is too much compelling evidence that can be produced in reply to what they offer. When it gets too hard to divert the subject is normal. The person I mostly talked with did this with ease as he was able to produce passage after passage, which like you said often lead to a different subject entirely. Would not be surprised if this is a practiced teaching ploy.

I may be back in this place soon to take up again these conversations. With a few years between visits, we should have a lot more to talk about

May it all go well - Regards Tony
 
Old 05-09-2016, 06:08 AM   #21
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JWs are very knowledgeable on biblical issues,though their interpretations are totally literal. Once they listen to the Bahai point of view, some of them change their actitud for good and become friendly. I admire their dedication. We have a Baha'i lady in our community who used to be a Jw.she is now a very strong Bahai.

Last edited by Rouhollah; 05-09-2016 at 08:38 AM.
 
Old 05-09-2016, 09:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
Whoa, that is SO NEAT!! Reason being that for several months the wife & I had over at the house here a couple JW's and we studied the Bible together. There are a lot of things the JW's & the Baha'is have in common (partial list available upon request) but it kind of ground to a stop after a while, the husband kept disagreeing w/ me saying I was wrong no matter what (even when I was telling him that I agreed w/ him) and it was such a contrast to how nicely things had gone for many weeks at first.

Anyway, back at the begining what we'd done is we skipped over all the stuff we agreed on (Bible's the word of God, we are now in the time of the end, Christ's presence has come again, etc.) and we were doing fine until we went from Mathew 24 over to Daniel 8 and all of a sudden we could no longer focus on the Bible --so it seemed.

Long story --but the JW.org website spells out nicely in their FAQ's that we really really should be able to study together. So. Whenever you get a chance I'd be soooo grateful if u cud share ur thots on if u think there's any hope in re-establishing our Bible study or tell me how maybe I just need new JW's to work w/.

I'd love studying the Bible w/ Baha'is too but the ones I know got a lot more they're already studying. At any rate, do let me know.

Pete

Jehovah's Witnesses are individuals, like everyone, and so you cant really paint them with a broad brush, but I will say a few things. They are, like Rouhollah says, very learned about the Bible. They have to study nearly constantly, and they have an extremely effective public speaking course they attend from childhood on. So they can not only study, but discuss it well. However, their sources of material are strictly from their organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Here is where it gets tricky. They will not consider anything outside of the Bible as anything other than "False Religion." By JW belief, the Baha'i faith, along with all other religions and non-JW interpretations of Christianity, are deceptive religions actually setup by Satan to mislead the world, and its is up to them to give the world the information it needs to be undeceived. Otherwise, non-JW's will be killed at what they believe will be Armageddon, coming very soon (it's been coming very soon to them since 1873, but I won't go into that. Let's be positive) .

But you can talk to them. I'm proof enough of that. The thing to keep in mind is the Witness believes he or she is sincerely trying to save your life. They will listen to you because they are looking for inroads to bring the conversation BACK to a point where they can continue to try to save you. They are very well trained for this, even if they are not very often successful. Also if they can keep the conversation on track, they can "count time" on you. Witnesses must "publish" their time each month, how much proselytizing they do, to remain current publishers. If they do not publish they are irregular or inactive and lose privileges. It's why you find Watchtowers in the laundrymat. Someone started their time early before breakfast on Saturday morning.

The Witnesses have a book called, I think it is still current, I don't know, but it was called "Mankind's Search for God" and it interestingly breaks down information for Witnesses about religions they may not have heard about, and brings up similarities which make them easier to understand. It has good things to say about many of them. It's not a negative book, really, if you see it from their point of view. Its actually how I found out about the Sikhs and Baha'is.

After becoming a Baha'i, I read "Thief in the Night." Oh I sometimes wish I had read that 20 years ago. This is the book for JW's. If they realize just how close our two faiths are, it's stunning. To me, the early Bible Students still looking for the Advent, simply did not know of Baha'u'llah, and missed it. They've been trying to adjust their understanding ever since. They know they got something right, but doubts set in. Why didn't the Lord return? Or if he did, why was there not new understanding, as was told? Time sets in and the theology just does not work as it should, but scary Armageddon is around the corner to them.. any time.. still.

but what if the Lord had come back, and we'd just missed the signs?

That, I think, is the good news that I wish the people I knew in the Society had known. I miss them. I cant talk to them anymore, since they practice shunning, but I do wish they knew, its going to be alright.
 
Old 05-09-2016, 02:52 PM   #23
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Noogan, are you a former JW?
 
Old 05-09-2016, 02:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
...not be surprised if this is a practiced teaching ploy...
Could be, but it's most probably not considered as such when they do it. It may be an unspoken/unconscious habit, or it may be their way of avoiding what they might consider as unwarranted false delays in the path to truth.

When it first started happening it was easy to see, and I just pointed out that I'd noticed the sudden change of subject away from the Guidance in the Bible. I said that I would understand that the reason was that they were worried that they weren't prepared for what we were finding and I invited them to research the subject and get back to me and for the time being we would in fact changed the subject --by conscious choice and for a limited time. I said that I'd be wrong if I insisted on my slick fast talk to pose as Truth and that I'd lay off.

My bottom line was that I honestly wanted them to look into it and explain how what I was seeing could have meanings other than what I was seeing. I honestly want to learn something new here and they should be in a unique position to offer a fresh view.

Thus far they haven't wanted to touch it and I can't find a good way to ask. My thinking is that there must be some way to get the convo rolling again. I'm having a hard time convincing 'em that my goal is not to convert them but rather to study w/ them and learn from seeing things from a different direction.

Which is all why I wonder if either I'm missing a good way to invite them to study or I'm wasting my time w/ folks that feel they already know everything and aren't willing to even study their own orthodoxy.

Pse let me know if you've ever gotten around this obstacle, or maybe there might be a JW lurker here that can fill us in.

Pete.
 
Old 05-09-2016, 03:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rouhollah View Post
... their interpretations are totally literal...
They might want to differ with that statement.

In the FAQ's of JW.org they flat out say that some parts of the Bible are literal and others are symbolic. Example: they're 100% w/ us when it comes to the symbolic understanding of the Christ's resurrection --a point that's been an unbreakable wall to many visitors. There are a number of other places where they agree w/ Baha'is. Like, it's neat that they only have only men on their supreme council just like us.

Pete
 
Old 05-09-2016, 03:05 PM   #26
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[I don't want to miss anything Noogan, so I'm printing out ur reply so as to read it carefully...]
 
Old 05-09-2016, 03:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noogan View Post
Jehovah's Witnesses are individuals, like everyone, and so you cant really paint them with a broad brush, but I will say a few things. They are, like Rouhollah says, very learned about the Bible. They have to study nearly constantly, and they have an extremely effective public speaking course they attend from childhood on. So they can not only study, but discuss it well. However, their sources of material are strictly from their organization, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Here is where it gets tricky. They will not consider anything outside of the Bible as anything other than "False Religion." By JW belief, the Baha'i faith, along with all other religions and non-JW interpretations of Christianity, are deceptive religions actually setup by Satan to mislead the world, and its is up to them to give the world the information it needs to be undeceived. Otherwise, non-JW's will be killed at what they believe will be Armageddon, coming very soon (it's been coming very soon to them since 1873, but I won't go into that. Let's be positive) .

But you can talk to them. I'm proof enough of that. The thing to keep in mind is the Witness believes he or she is sincerely trying to save your life. They will listen to you because they are looking for inroads to bring the conversation BACK to a point where they can continue to try to save you. They are very well trained for this, even if they are not very often successful. Also if they can keep the conversation on track, they can "count time" on you. Witnesses must "publish" their time each month, how much proselytizing they do, to remain current publishers. If they do not publish they are irregular or inactive and lose privileges. It's why you find Watchtowers in the laundrymat. Someone started their time early before breakfast on Saturday morning.

The Witnesses have a book called, I think it is still current, I don't know, but it was called "Mankind's Search for God" and it interestingly breaks down information for Witnesses about religions they may not have heard about, and brings up similarities which make them easier to understand. It has good things to say about many of them. It's not a negative book, really, if you see it from their point of view. Its actually how I found out about the Sikhs and Baha'is.

After becoming a Baha'i, I read "Thief in the Night." Oh I sometimes wish I had read that 20 years ago. This is the book for JW's. If they realize just how close our two faiths are, it's stunning. To me, the early Bible Students still looking for the Advent, simply did not know of Baha'u'llah, and missed it. They've been trying to adjust their understanding ever since. They know they got something right, but doubts set in. Why didn't the Lord return? Or if he did, why was there not new understanding, as was told? Time sets in and the theology just does not work as it should, but scary Armageddon is around the corner to them.. any time.. still.

but what if the Lord had come back, and we'd just missed the signs?

That, I think, is the good news that I wish the people I knew in the Society had known. I miss them. I cant talk to them anymore, since they practice shunning, but I do wish they knew, its going to be alright.
Thank you for this, I will be back among my JW friends soon I think

From memory, I think I tried introducing Thief in thee Night, as Mr William sears books were my grounding in this Faith. God Loves Laughter, then Thief in the Night!

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-09-2016, 06:26 PM   #28
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Thanks so much for filling me in on your experiences. The beliefs you're describing can actually be seen as points that we have in common, or at the very least they're not issues that I got a problem with.
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
...will not consider anything outside of the Bible as anything other than "False Religion."...
--and I can agree here. The thing is that we all agree that at the time of the end that Christ's Presence would come again and that new teachings would be added. OK, they say the Presence and teachings came from their headquarters in Brooklyn NY and we say it's Haifa, so I don't belabor the point. What I'm happy about was learning that the Bible never said that Jesus would physically come toodling down here on some fancy cloud or other. They're clear that the Bible says "presence", not body. So we should at least be able to study the Bible together.
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...deceptive religions actually setup by Satan to mislead the world...
--and I try to tell them that this is true, I agree, and that's why I want to get back to the Bible. They seem to start taking issue and they suggest that I'm lying to them that I really don't agree. This is where my poor wife decided that we were never going to get anywhere and bowed out.
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
...Armageddon, coming very soon (it's been coming very soon to them since 1873...
Kind of reminds me of all the Bahai's I run into saying we're about to have the 'Great Catastrophe'. fwiw did you know that the Valley of Armageddon was at the Golan Heights just north of Haifa?
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
...sincerely trying to save your life...
--and that's good. I have to admit that no small part of my motivation is not that their misunderstanding would cause them to die but rather that they'd miss out on having a good life. Then again, just studying and us enjoying a study circle together is fine.
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
...they can "count time" on you...
Almost kind of like how we report the stats on our core activities for our reflection meetings.
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
..."Thief in the Night."...
Great book, I practically memorized it but there's been a lot more stuff --much better stuff-- since Sears wrote it. imho it's now to the point that w/ everyone's ability to research the Bible on the internet that everyone's got the power to do sooo much more than Sears could ever have dreamed of.
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
...they practice shunning...
Yeah, I can understand how they'd want to consider your role as we see our covenant breakers. They're wrong of course but I can also see how you'd be pained by it.

At any rate, thanx so much for the input, I'm beginning to think of ways thru this and I'll keep u posted.

Pete
 
Old 05-09-2016, 06:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by tonyfish58 View Post
...I tried introducing Thief in thee Night...
You don't need to, it's all right there. It's basically these quotes but it's much simpler than it looks. Really. If ur interested I can 'splain it --I can't tell you how much I would dearly love to find out if it holds together when someone kicks it around. My witness buddies here just wanted to change the subject and stop talking about what the Bible was saying.
 
Old 05-09-2016, 09:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
.Yeah, I can understand how they'd want to consider your role as we see our covenant breakers. They're wrong of course but I can also see how you'd be pained by it.

At any rate, thanx so much for the input, I'm beginning to think of ways thru this and I'll keep u posted.

Pete

I'm not pained. I'm free. And I broke no covenant. I'd pay just about any price for the kind of freedom I have now.
 
Old 05-10-2016, 04:58 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by noogan View Post
...I broke no covenant...
Absolutely. Something else is that it's not like you're being kept from saying anything, as anything you would say is already been said.

Mean while the idea is that people are good and there are a lot of 'em -- still plenty enough around for all of us to enjoy.
 
Old 05-10-2016, 01:54 PM   #32
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hungry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete in Panama View Post
You don't need to, it's all right there. It's basically these quotes but it's much simpler than it looks. Really. If ur interested I can 'splain it --I can't tell you how much I would dearly love to find out if it holds together when someone kicks it around. My witness buddies here just wanted to change the subject and stop talking about what the Bible was saying.
Dear Pete so great to hear from you again.
AS for it all being simple, well I am getting weaker and nothing is simple for me anymore.
I read here but say less, will be watching the comments.
As for Mormons I still invite them into my home for a glass of water and rest.
Keep up the good work, I rest and await the joyful message (death)
bill
 
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