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Old 11-29-2016, 03:53 AM   #1
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The Great Peacemaker: A Prophet?

If anyone knows much involving the Great Peacemaker, I have a question. I personally have heard quite a few stories of Deganawida. I've seen in various sites (Albeit Wiki-type ones) which say that some have seen that he is a Manifestation. This interests me, as I am open to the thought of him being one. At the same time I am confused:

Is it not impossible for him to be considered a Prophet/Manifestation? He lived in ~1100, in between the lives of Muhammad and The Bab (And, as one who reveres the Sikh Gurus, as they are not Manifestations or prophets, but wise men, "saints of the highest order", I would have to say that the Peacemaker was indeed before the Gurus). I thought it was explicitly stated that there was no Manifestation between Muhammad and the Bab? Or was it more of a "We don't really know" scenario?

If the Great Peacemaker is not a Manifestation, is it not impossible for him to be a minor prophet as well? Seeing as Muhammad is the seal of the prophets. Or could it be that since the First Nations had little-to-no contact with the words of any previous Manifestation, they were not subject to Muhammad's seal because they genuinely did not know of the Manifestations?

Or even then, if he is not a Manifestation, could he be a saint/seer/wiseman such as the Gurus? A mortal man subject to all the faults of humanity, but whom has also conversed with God, or at least worked in His name.

I am curious, as I really respect The Great Peacemaker, and never really thought of him in this sort of light before.

Thank you for your time;
-Mark
 
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Old 11-29-2016, 05:05 AM   #2
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Before the arrival of Columbus in the late fifteenth century, and with the exception of brief incursions by the Norse at Greenland and on the peripherals, the Americas were almost entirely isolated and cut off from the rest of the 'known world' centered in Asia, Africa and Europe.

As such the Manifestations of Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad exerted no influence up on that part of the globe. Until the 19th century, the planet was not globalised as it is now.

Obviously, God would not have left the peoples of the Americas - or indeed Australia and other isolated regions - without guidance from on high, so one could assume that Manifestations would have been given in a cycle utterly separate from those that took place in Asia-Africa-Europe.

For that reason, there is no reason why a Manifestation could not have arisen in North America within the timeline of the Muhammadan dispensation.
 
Old 11-29-2016, 09:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeshua View Post
Obviously, God would not have left the peoples of the Americas - or indeed Australia and other isolated regions - without guidance from on high, so one could assume that Manifestations would have been given in a cycle utterly separate from those that took place in Asia-Africa-Europe.
I would be really interested in seeing this subject explored further. I don't know nearly as much about Native American religions as I do about Middle Eastern and Asian religions.
 
Old 11-30-2016, 08:12 AM   #4
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Some links you might find interesting:

Comparing the Teachings of Two Peacemakers

The Great Law of Peace

Two Great Peacemakers: Deganawida & Baha

Iroquois Confederacy (Six Nations) & World Federation (All Nations)

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/bidwe...messengers.pdf

Native American Messengers of God

Native Messengers of God: One Baha

Quetzalcoatl, the

The Return of White Buffalo Calf Woman

The Return of Viracocha, the Prophet of the Incas

Amerindian Baha'is have interesting perspectives, I find, as do the many peoples who come into the Faith through old Prophets of their own.

 
Old 11-30-2016, 03:03 PM   #5
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What an amazing photo!
 
Old 11-30-2016, 05:06 PM   #6
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We do not have any specific references to the American prophets and Manifestations in our scriptures. But as a general principle, the Qur'an and the Babi and Baha'i Writings make it very clear that prophets were sent to all the peoples of the Earth:

"...there never was a people to whom a prophet was not sent."

- Qur'an 35:24

Now we cannot, of course, add any names to the officially-recognized list of Baha'i Manifestations (the door of adding official doctrine and interpretation to the Faith closed with the passing of the Guardian in 1957). But as individual Baha'is, we are certainly free to believe that the great prophets of the Americas, like Deganawida, were in fact Manifestations sent to the native peoples of this continent. This is my own personal view, and that of many Baha'is I have read and spoken with.

Last edited by Matthew Light; 11-30-2016 at 05:38 PM.
 
Old 11-30-2016, 05:16 PM   #7
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Most definitely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Light View Post
We do not have any specific references to the American prophets and Manifestations in our scriptures. But as a general principle, the Qur'an and the Babi and Baha'i writings make it very clear that prophets were sent to all the peoples of the Earth:

"...there never was a people to whom a prophet was not sent."

- Qur'an 35:24

Now we cannot, of course, add any names to the officially-recognized list of Baha'i Manifestations (the door of adding official doctrine and interpretation to the Faith closed with the passing of the Guardian in 1957). But as individual Baha'is, we are certainly free to believe that the great prophets of the Americas, like Deganawida, were in fact Manifestations sent to the native peoples of this continent. This is my own personal view, and that of many Baha'is I have read and spoken with.
. If it was necessary for Abraham, a Manifestation of God, to teach that there was only ONE God, the Unseen, then likewise it would be logical to assume that the Native American people were taught about the ONE God by a Manifestation of God.
 
Old 12-03-2016, 12:41 AM   #8
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Amerindian Baha'is have interesting perspectives, I find, as do the many peoples who come into the Faith through old Prophets of their own.
Thank you for posting all of the links. I've read through them and found them very interesting. Baha'i Teachings is a great site, one that I occasionally visit. Still, I had not seen most of the links you provided!
 
Old 12-03-2016, 06:08 AM   #9
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If it was necessary for Abraham, a Manifestation of God, to teach that there was only ONE God, the Unseen, then likewise it would be logical to assume that the Native American people were taught about the ONE God by a Manifestation of God.
Some Native American nations are monotheistic.
 
Old 12-05-2016, 07:07 AM   #10
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Some Native American nations are monotheistic.
I've tended to find in my studies that most "polytheists" are monotheistic.

Like in some Hindu sects you have multiple "gods", but these "gods" are not all-powerful omnipotent beings, but rather lesser divinities, comparable to saints or angels. Their all-powerful God, Vishnu, is above such lesser divines, so ultimately I'd say they're monotheistic.

Or in Taoism you have multiple "gods", but none of those "gods" are all-powerful beings and pretty much all of them are said to have lived as mortals at one time or another, meaning they're pretty much the same idea as "saints". And Taoism has the Tao, an infinite, subtle being that guides the universe, so ultimately I'd say they're monotheistic.

Even my neo-pagan Wiccan friend, with her almost countless number of "gods" still acknowledges a "Goddess" above all of the others, so ultimately I'd say even she is monotheistic.

Ultimately I think the divide between "monotheism" and "polytheism" just comes down to translation errors, translating terms for lesser divinities as "gods" and causing a false equation between God through the translation.

I propose a Unity of "monotheism" and "polytheism", they seem to me to all teach the reality of One God, and other lesser holy beings, and it seems to me the difference between the two just lies in the terminology used for the lesser holies.
 
Old 12-05-2016, 04:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
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I've tended to find in my studies that most "polytheists" are monotheistic.

Like in some Hindu sects you have multiple "gods", but these "gods" are not all-powerful omnipotent beings, but rather lesser divinities, comparable to saints or angels. Their all-powerful God, Vishnu, is above such lesser divines, so ultimately I'd say they're monotheistic.

Or in Taoism you have multiple "gods", but none of those "gods" are all-powerful beings and pretty much all of them are said to have lived as mortals at one time or another, meaning they're pretty much the same idea as "saints". And Taoism has the Tao, an infinite, subtle being that guides the universe, so ultimately I'd say they're monotheistic.

Even my neo-pagan Wiccan friend, with her almost countless number of "gods" still acknowledges a "Goddess" above all of the others, so ultimately I'd say even she is monotheistic.

Ultimately I think the divide between "monotheism" and "polytheism" just comes down to translation errors, translating terms for lesser divinities as "gods" and causing a false equation between God through the translation.

I propose a Unity of "monotheism" and "polytheism", they seem to me to all teach the reality of One God, and other lesser holy beings, and it seems to me the difference between the two just lies in the terminology used for the lesser holies.
Surely the practitioners know most about their own faith?
 
Old 12-06-2016, 08:59 AM   #12
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Surely the practitioners know most about their own faith?
I've known of Hindus and Taoists who profess their faith to be monotheistic.

I've never met a Wiccan who attests monotheism by that name, though I've known a few who assert the Abrahamic Faiths are polytheistic due to the existence of angels and the like, which aforementioned Wiccans have told me are no different from their view of what the concept of "a god" means.

I'd say everyone knows their own faith the best, sure, but I still maintain the monotheism/polytheism divide is, for most faiths at least, purely based on what that faith defines the word "deity" as. From what I see and what others have told me about their own beliefs, most religions have a multitude of divine figures, perhaps, but they only ever have, at most, one infinite, all-powerful being.
 
Old 12-07-2016, 10:43 PM   #13
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... one could assume that Manifestations would have been given in a cycle utterly separate from those that took place in Asia-Africa-Europe...
Oh my.

I think you broke me.

My minds gears are turning so intensely now...


Check back in a week, I think I've got a bit of an idea cooking I'm going to post about. I'm dissecting this potential "separate cycle" in my mind, and it is oh so juicy! I know quite a bit of Aboriginal gods and legendary figures, I'm trying to piece together a (and I stress) completely theoretical timeline for this hypothetical cycle.
 
Old 12-08-2016, 09:52 AM   #14
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Oh my.

I think you broke me.

My minds gears are turning so intensely now...


Check back in a week, I think I've got a bit of an idea cooking I'm going to post about. I'm dissecting this potential "separate cycle" in my mind, and it is oh so juicy! I know quite a bit of Aboriginal gods and legendary figures, I'm trying to piece together a (and I stress) completely theoretical timeline for this hypothetical cycle.
I must say, I'm now excited for next week!!
 
Old 12-29-2016, 09:16 AM   #15
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Here is my theoretical and frankly, speculation filled timeline of approximated dates as to how this cycle could have worked. The commentary may be strange, I haven't slept in a long while haha and wrote this on no sleep whatsoever. Much of the commentary and speculation can be chalked up to my opinion. This timeline includes in short:
Mormon parables/passages/stories/prophets
Rastafari's Athlyi, writer of the "Holy Piby"
The Great Peacemaker of course
Various native american cultures and their gods and heroes

I personally view Joseph Smith and Athlyi as seers. I may be biased, as my father is a Mormon, and I spent about a month researching Rastafari and fell in love. I would love to have a talk on Rastafari. I'm done my paper on it and will post it on this forum soon.


1995 BC - Mahonri arrives from the tower of Babel with the Jaredites. He is possibly a prophet at the start, but he becomes a Manifestation of God when he leads the Jaredites to the Americas. He lays the spiritual groundwork for this cycle. It is
possible that without Mahonri setting up this cycle and bringing spirituality to the otherwise quiet Americas, the Native Americans would not have been in contact with God in the first place. Thus Mahonri, Brother of Jared, became a Manifestation of God. The prior inhabitants of the Americas were not part of this cycle. It is unclear if they had any contact with God, though they did worship deities. I think it is possible they could have worshiped demons like the people in
Zoroaster's time or were corrupt.
1700 BC - Muisca people hear of God likely from the Jaredites, and the Muisca are sent Bochica, a Manifestation of God, to guide them. They eventually practice human sacrifice but stop.
1500 BC - Olmec people establish concept of God (Possibly expressed as numerous aspects of the same deity, as in Hinduism), possibly due to contact with the Jaredites. The same goes to the Zapotec, who eventually turn away from God and practice
things like human sacrifice. Same for the Mixtec.
630 BC - Ether lives as the last prophet of the Jaredites
590 BC - Lehi lives as a prophet and a "contact" from the main cycle. The two cycles remain mostly isolated but spiritual information such as Christ's life is relayed due to the connected cycles. prophet in the American continent.
580 BC - Nephi lives as a Manifestation of God of the American continent
545 BC - Jacob lives as a prophet
510 BC - Enos lives as a prophet, possibly has an elongated life?
420 BC - Jarom lives as a prophet
360 BC - Omni lives as a prophet
320 BC - Amaron lives as a prophet
280 BC - Chemish lives as a prophet
250 BC - Abinadom lives as a prophet
220 BC - Amaleki lives as a prophet
200 BC - Mosiah lives as a prophet
200 BC - Hunahpu and Xbalanque train by God to avenge their father
150 BC - King Benjamin lives as a Manifestation of God
140 BC - Abinadi lives as a prophet
120 BC - Alma the Elder lives as one of the most noteworthy minor prophets
110 BC - King Mosiah lives as a prophet
100 BC - Alma the Younger lives as a prophet
75 BC - Helaman lives as a prophet
50 BC - Helaman, Son of Helaman lives as a prophet
5 BC - Samuel the Lamanite lives as a Manifestation of God
1 - Nephi, Son of Nephi lives as a prophet
5 - Quetzalcoatl lives as a Manifestation of God, though his message is almost entirely lost and he is venerated as a deity.
30 - Jesus teaches the Americans. This signifies another stronger "connection" to the other cycle.
90 - Amos, Son of Nephi lives as a prophet
190 - Amos, Son of Amos lives as a prophet
250- - Amos (other) possibly lives as a prophet
320 - Ammaron lives as a prophet
335 - Mormon lives as a Manifestation of God
400 - Moroni lives as a Manifestation of God
1100 - Haudenosaunee people hear of God from the Great Peacemaker, a Manifestation of God
1200 - Inca hear about God and possibly have Manco Capac as a Manifestation of God to teach them. His basis and stories of God drive the Inca empire to greatness, but after his death the Incan Empire begins to practice human sacrifice, though the
general message of Manco Capac is prominent in their faith. It is similar to there being Brahman, and his personifications in Hinduism.
1200 - Aztecs hear about God in some form, but eventually fall out of God's graces and worship false gods, committing to human sacrifices among other things. In other words, the Aztec did know of God possibly due to legends of Nephite prophets, but
they turned from God.
1500 - Ayas (Cree and other) lives and possibly is protected by God
1500 - Nanabozho is lives as a prophet
1600 - Motzeyouf is a prophet to the Cheyenne
1600 - Glooscap is a Manifestation of God sent directly by the "Great Spirit"
1830 - Joseph Smith uncovers the Book of Mormon. He is a seer, sensitive to the spiritual happenings of the time but just a mere man, and was thus subject to error. Was visited by an angel. Predicts the coming of Baha'u'llah.
1920 - Athlyi is visited by an angel and writes the Piby. He is a seer also subject to human error. It is at this point that both with the visiting of Abdu'l-Baha having happened, and with the world becoming highly interconnected, this cycle ended
with Athlyi as the final one to recieve any sort of word from God in the Americas. It is at this point that the American cycle ends and merges with the modern cycle.

Athlyi and Joseph Smith recieved word from God but aren't major or minor prophets. They are possibly some of the greatest seers to have existed in the Americas. Christianity was preached in the Americas, both by the settlers who came to it and the alleged Nephites, but Islam was not present in the Americas until later.
At this point the world was very connected, and thus the people of the Americas were connected to an extent. Thus Joseph Smith and Athlyi could have recieved the word of the Lord, but would have been mere men, seers with human error. They may have percieved themselves to be more important than what they truly were, and thus their texts (The Piby, and books written originally by Smith) may retain the general message, but also are subject to the error of the men that wrote them.
Since traditionally this cycle hinges on Christianity and not Islam, these two seers (Almost-prophets?) who did the final coaxing for their peoples, used the bible which was much more widespread and readily available. To me, the two are as close
as one can get to being a prophet, without actually being one.
The way I see it, Joseph Smith was sent to uncover the Book of Mormon, and thus was not needed to be a prophet: His actions in the name of God were not meant to bring a specific culture the word of the Lord as was the case for most minor prophets in the Qur'an and the Bible. Athlyi could have possibly been a minor prophet, as the African-American community was in need of somebody to give them the strength until they were fully accepted. However by reading his text the Holy Piby I see that he may have wrote things that show human error, like saying that God has a specific "favourite people" of the world. It is for reasons such as this that make me say he is a seer instead of a prophet, though he is very close.
 
Old 12-29-2016, 10:09 AM   #16
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I like the list!!

I'd suggest as a possible addition with status of a possible sage being William Miller. He predicted the year the Bab would arrive after all.
 
Old 12-29-2016, 01:04 PM   #17
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I like the list!!

I'd suggest as a possible addition with status of a possible sage being William Miller. He predicted the year the Bab would arrive after all.
Ahh, I haven't heard of him! I'll look into him.
 
Old 12-29-2016, 01:23 PM   #18
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Oh, and I've recently learned of this interesting movement founded by a man named Wovoka who claimed to have visions for God, right around the time of the Spiritual Reawakening of the world.
 
Old 12-29-2016, 02:04 PM   #19
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Okay... and the deeper I end up researching things the more interesting things end up being, as is often the case.

I'm noticing a lot of indigenous religious revival movements happened around the beginning of the Baha'i Era.

1838: Nakayama Miki gains inspiration from the "One God" during a Buddhist monk's attempt to exorcise her sick husband. Creates a monotheistic revival of the Shinto religion, Tenrikyo
1890: Wovoka reports divinely inspired visions and starts the Ghost Dance religion which quickly grows popular among Native American communities, reviving Amerindian traditions.
1904: Chet Chelpan and Chugul Sarok Chandyk report visions of a white rider, and found Ak Jang, an Altai religious movement that sought to restore the Tengriist religion.
1890: Otoman Zar-Adusht Ha'nish founds Mazdaznan, a religion seeking to restore the Zoroastrian faith.
1921: Władysław Kołodziej's establishes the Holy Circle of Worshipers of Światowid, seeking to revive indigenous Polish religion.
1925: Ernests Brastiņš seeks to restore the indiginous Latvian religion, founding the Dievturība movement.

It's interesting that there were so many people inspired to try to restore indigenous religions during this time (to say nothing of the many, many Christian revival movements during this time!!) Undoubtedly, people felt on a spiritual level something needed restoration. Old traditions and revelations being revived and accepted in preparation for religious unity, perhaps??

Last edited by Walrus; 12-29-2016 at 02:06 PM.
 
Old 12-31-2016, 04:13 AM   #20
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I think so. I haven' heard of most of those aside from Tenrikyo (I posted a thread about it in interfaith), I am going to check those out!
 
Old 12-31-2016, 07:07 AM   #21
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And how about the Taiping Rebellion, 1850-1864?

gnat
 
Old 12-31-2016, 07:34 AM   #22
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And how about the Taiping Rebellion, 1850-1864?

gnat
Wasn't that more of a radical Christian sect?
 
Old 12-31-2016, 12:55 PM   #23
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The thing is for some of these such as Tenrikyo and the Taiping Rebellion, my original intention was to try to recreate the theoretical cycle of the Americas. Things like Tenrikyo weren't really happenings that occurred in the Americas. The Far East has had ones like Buddha among others who were "lost to history", and would have happened in (as it was said here) the Asia-Africa-Europe cycle. The Taiping Rebellion and Tenrikyo more than likely aren't part of the American cycle, but likely are produced because of/in the "main" cycle.

I think I've developed a problem, after staying up so late the first time I keep sleeping really late haha.
 
Old 12-31-2016, 04:30 PM   #24
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We could discuss that a lot. During the period 1844-1863, amazing spirtual awakenings took place all over the world. Just consider that the Red Cross was founded in 1863.

gnat
 
Old 01-01-2017, 05:18 AM   #25
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It seems h123 has been observing our conversations here, and he's still denying he's h123. I remember this individual from that terrible kissing hands post here.

I guess it's just best to ignore him now. I just wanted to let you guys know.
 
Old 01-01-2017, 09:39 AM   #26
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It seems h123 has been observing our conversations here, and he's still denying he's h123. I remember this individual from that terrible kissing hands post here.

I guess it's just best to ignore him now. I just wanted to let you guys know.
In the Most Holy Book (1:38), there is written :

Arise to further My Cause, and to exalt My Word amongst men. We are with you at all times, and shall strengthen you through the power of truth. We are truly almighty.

We possess the Power of Truth, and therfore, shall not be afraid by such things. There are supernatural forces out there that make people believe or disbelieve, and a bit of propaganda does not influence these forces.

Just ignore. By accusing someone of being a fake believer, you are either committing a sin by defaming a believer or falling into the trap of a disbeliever who will make you look paranoid.
 
Old 01-01-2017, 03:45 PM   #27
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In the Most Holy Book (1:38), there is written :
As I wrote the post above, I was thinking to myself: "I bet 'GoaForce' will be the first to reply."



I hope you can understand why I'm a little paranoid. I discussed some of the historical reasons here.

Last edited by ahanu; 01-01-2017 at 04:40 PM. Reason: I hope GoaForce understands why I feel this way, so I added more.
 
Old 01-01-2017, 03:49 PM   #28
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As I posted the above, I was thinking to myself: "I bet GoaForce will reply."

I shall spend way less time on the internet
 
Old 01-01-2017, 04:25 PM   #29
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I shall spend way less time on the internet
I will be doing that too.

 
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