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Old 01-16-2018, 11:46 PM   #1
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Jesus's Death

I have been reading the arguments presented by Ahmadiyya Islam as of late. I must say I have been convinced that Jesus survived the crucifixion, and did not die until he was old. To me, this makes things like Mormonism seem much more plausible, and maybe it's the more esoteric side of me, but Jesus being Yuz Asaf makes sense to me. Is such a view acceptable within the Baha'i Faith?

The one thing that seems to hit home with me the most is the comment made about Jonah, how Jesus's life will be like that of him. A man who, by all accounts, should have died in the belly of a huge fish, but survived miraculously. As such, I think it makes sense, seeing as Jesus's life was said to be like Jonah's, that he should have died on the cross but miraculously didn't. In a way, I almost think that this is more glorious than resurrection. A man who was able to take beatings, carry the crossbeam he would be nailed to, get crucified, and then stabbed with a spear, gushing water and blood, and yet, through the power of God, managed to survive it all. The Ahmadiyya view on this makes sense to me, in that he swooned, and awoke in his tomb.

I recently injured my leg quite badly, and as such have been given quite strong pills that remind me of muscle relaxers. They are seriously messing with me, and I apologize that if in my haze I am posting nonsense. I would love to hear other people's perspectives on this topic. Whether is be agreeing with Ahmadiyya, evidence against it, or just entirely different perspectives such as him not giving at all, I would love to hear it. Sometimes I fear that the people of this community see me as a strange outsider that is going on tangents of nonsense all the time. I hope you know that I appreciate every one of you Sorry if this doesn't make sense. This medication is really making it hard to focus. Glad I don't drive
 
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:48 AM   #2
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Saveyist:

From my perspective, you are continuing your search for truth and have no need to apologize for that. In response to your invitation for others to share their perspectives, I offer my brief comments below for your consideration.

The first and highest thing that emanates from God is that ancient, divine, and universal Reality called the Primal Will, the Divine Intellect, the Command (of God), the Word (of God). This Reality is the First Cause of all things and has no beginning nor end. This Reality is the reality of the Manifestations or Prophets of God.

The man Jesus (from Nazareth) was “anointed” by God as the embodiment of this luminous Reality (“In the beginning was the Word . . . and the Word was made flesh”; see John 1 - 14).

This Reality cannot be put to death and has survived its numerous persecutions over and again throughout all time. The body of the man Jesus may have been executed, but the Reality of His being will never die and will continue to re-manifest itself to humanity in dispensation after dispensation to the end without end. Its reappearance in Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are proofs of that.

Best to you.

-LR
 
Old 01-17-2018, 04:36 AM   #3
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I'd say that such a view continues the deplorable tradition of focusing on Christ's person, rather than on His message.

Best,

from

gnat
 
Old 01-17-2018, 05:07 AM   #4
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Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi are very explicit about the reality of Christ's bodily deat at the cross. Therefore the belief that Jesus survived His crucifixion and travelled to India is not compatible to the Bahá'í teachings. Nevertheless it is an interesting idea and worth of further study.

I have been on dialogue with Ahmadis for years now and cannot say that I find their arguments convincing.

As for Jesus in America. This is way out of any possibility. There were no Jews in America. There were no Nephites and Lamanites. The "Book of Abraham" Joseph Smith translated is in fact an Egyptian mummification manual and has nothing to do with Abraham at all. As an Archeologist I have to say this very clear. There is no evidence whatsoever for the stories told in the Book of Mormon.
 
Old 01-17-2018, 05:29 AM   #5
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I have nothing to add except that your truth seeking is good and I go through similiar things.. When all things fail for me and I am unable to find adequate answers for my problems or I have a conclusion which differs from the Baha'i faith I am always brought back to what is the Bahá'í faith trying to Instill into me? What is its message? Is it beneficial? What are the fruits of the faith? And from there the answers come to me

I hope you are able to find the truth, meditate and pray for the truth to be revealed with a pure heart there is no doubts God will help you .. Sorry for the irrelevant comment .. Alláh’u’Abhá

Last edited by Yousefy2; 01-17-2018 at 05:32 AM.
 
Old 01-17-2018, 07:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saveyist View Post
I have been reading the arguments presented by Ahmadiyya Islam as of late. I must say I have been convinced that Jesus survived the crucifixion,
Well of course he did!! Quran 2:154: "And do not say about those who are killed in the way of God, 'They are dead.' Rather, they are alive, but you perceive it not." Martyrs always survive their martyrdom, we are told. Husayn survived Karbala, the Bab survived the firing squad!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saveyist View Post
and did not die until he was old.
I would disagree with the second part of the sentence though, with the notion that he died at all.

Whether or not the body lived on, or whether or not the body died and stayed dead, or whether or not the body died for three days and was brought back to life seems... somewhat unimportant to me.

Because Jesus didn't die, and has never died. He lives to this day. At least, the most important part of him lives. His body is perhaps the least important part of Jesus, and its fate, while an interesting topic, is not as interesting to me as Jesus' spiritual survival.

Last edited by Walrus; 01-17-2018 at 07:28 AM.
 
Old 01-17-2018, 11:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoerenRekelBludau View Post
As for Jesus in America. This is way out of any possibility. There were no Jews in America. There were no Nephites and Lamanites. The "Book of Abraham" Joseph Smith translated is in fact an Egyptian mummification manual and has nothing to do with Abraham at all. As an Archeologist I have to say this very clear. There is no evidence whatsoever for the stories told in the Book of Mormon.
And you know cause you saw the golden plates he translated? I was just noting that if he did survive, the idea of him visiting native Americans isn't nearly as far out as it sounds.

I also don't think that discussing the demise of a Manifestation of God is continuing any deplorable traditions haha.

This thread inspired me to do some digging. I only found one quote from Baha'u'llah, which did not seem definitive of death, saying he yielded up his breath to God, and sacrificed himself. It obviously points more toward Jesus dying on the cross but it isn't entirely definitive in the sense that, if one leads a holy life, and gives their all to God, would they not be yielding their very breath to him? And it is possible to sacrifice yourself without death. This is a very non-religious example but bear with me: Rogue One, a Star Wars Story.

Galen Urso "sacrificed his life" to his work, so that his family would be safe. He devoted his life to a cause, sacrificing even ties with his own daughter in the process, truly giving his life to his work.

Then, I found some quotes from Abdu'l-Baha, which, in my mind, ARE authoritative (I know I've argued a lot about how various topics he talks about aren't things he's authoritative on) since he is almost certainly interpreting the quote from Baha'u'llah. Of all the quotes, only one part seemed like it was completely and utterly affirming death:

"Nevertheless, that Holy Soul accepted calamity and death in His love for mankind. This is one of the meanings of sacrifice." (The Promulgation of Universal Peace)
I know I'm being stubborn But I'm not sure this is completely definitive either. In alternative interpretations of this it could be speaking about their intent to kill him and cause calamity within his believers, and Christ was accepting of that intent, accepting the fact that he could very well die, but was willing to. Not that he did explicitly die. That's just one interpretation of it, granted.

I'm less foggy today, still adjusting though, definitely foggy though. Thank you all for putting up with me
 
Old 01-17-2018, 11:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saveyist View Post
I was just noting that if he did survive, the idea of him visiting native Americans isn't nearly as far out as it sounds.
I'd assume the opposite actually.

Being free of a body would help tremendously in travelling from the Mediterranean to the New World, especially prior to Lief Eriksson's voyage.
 
Old 01-17-2018, 01:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walrus View Post
I'd assume the opposite actually.

Being free of a body would help tremendously in travelling from the Mediterranean to the New World, especially prior to Lief Eriksson's voyage.
Em, St Brendan got there first
 
Old 01-17-2018, 04:40 PM   #10
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Huh, I guess that's very true. Also I'm mostly playing devils advocate on this, based on how it's described by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha it seems much more likely for Christ to have died. Just noting that it's a possibility for it to be otherwise

If it was true, and he visited them as a spirit, does that mean his visit would have been something like docetism? (I think that is how you spell that)
 
Old 01-18-2018, 05:05 AM   #11
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Saveyist:

I will offer some words of Bahá’u’lláh for your consideration.

“Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed 89 to Me its meaning through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose…. Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, 90 however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXXIX)

Take care.

-LR
 
Old 01-18-2018, 02:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saveyist View Post
And you know cause you saw the golden plates he translated?
The "Book of Abraham" was not included in the Golden Plates. It was translated from an Egyptian papyrus he bought from some antiquities dealer. But the papyrus has nowadays been translated by modern Egyptologists who could not find any parrallels between the text of the papyrus and the Book of Abraham written by Smith.

Last edited by SoerenRekelBludau; 01-18-2018 at 02:34 PM.
 
Old 01-18-2018, 10:02 PM   #13
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Thank you for the lovely quote! And yep, the book of Abraham is indeed a separate work from the book of Mormon. To my knowledge it doesn't mention Nephites or Lamanites so I am very confused as to why you mention it? I don't want to derail this thread, we can talk about it in PMs if you want.

I'm definitely less foggy. It's almost gone. Reading this back to myself, my initial post doesn't seem to make much sense. The way it is described, through the words of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, definitely sound like Jesus perished on the cross and I realize that. Nevertheless it is still possible for it to be interpreted differently. After a talk with a friend I often meet with who is a Jehovah's Witness, I am definitely less confident in the Ahmadiyya view of Jesus's death. The way I see it, him dying on the cross and the rest of the story being metaphorical makes much more sense than him resurrecting like a zombie. With my friend, we had an interesting discussion that somewhat relates. I brought up Jesus's speaking as a baby in the Qur'an. He seemed taken aback and said it sounded very unbelievable - In response to that I said, is it more believable that a baby spoke, or that a beaten, wounded man came back to life after suffering physical death? Sometimes I don't know how I have friends. I wonder if there's a symbolic aspect to baby Jesus's speaking though?
 
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