Bahai Forums

Go Back   Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Forums > Interfaith

Interfaith Interfaith discussion for different religious traditions

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-08-2010, 10:01 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Yeshua's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,922
The Virgin Mary in Islam and the Baha'i Faith

Mary, the Mother of Jesus, holds a very special position in Islam, and God proclaims her to be the best woman amongst all humanity, whom He chose above all other women due to her piety and devotion. She is mentioned in the Qur'an with the honorific title of "our lady" (syyidatuna) as the daughter of Imran and Hannah, just as she is in Catholicism. Isn't it lovely that one of the Catholics apparitions and devotions of the Virgin is called "Our Lady of Fatima"?

She is the only woman directly named in the Qur'an; declared (uniquely along with Jesus) to be a Sign of God to mankind


“And (mention) when the angels said, ‘O Mary! Indeed God has chosen you, and purified you, and has chosen you above all other women of the worlds/Universes (the material and heavenly worlds) (Quran 3:42-43) Now that is quite a statement!

Muslims revere Mary more highly than any other woman...Muslims revere her better than some Protestants!

God says in the Qur’an,
“Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.” 7

Islam gives her the status of being the most perfect of women created. In the Quran, no woman is given more attention than Mary even though all the prophets, with the exception of Adam, had mothers. Of the Quran’s 114 chapters, she is among the eight people who have a chapter named after them, the nineteenth chapter “Maryam”, which is Mary in Arabic. In addition, Mary is the only woman specifically named in the Quran.

The Holy Land has been a real battleground between the Islamic peoples and Christianity over the centuries. Evidence of this are the numerous churches and basilicas that have been built by the Church, destroyed by, the Moslems, rebuilt by Catholic Crusaders, leveled again by the followers of Islam, and so on over the course of history. However, there is one remarkable exception: the Basilica of Saint Anne in Jerusalem.

The Crusaders built this church and named it in honor of the mother of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the Crypt of St. Anne's Basilica, a statue of the Infant Mary is venerated on what is believed to be the exact spot where Our Lady was born. Their great reverence for Our Lady precluded the Moslems from destroying her birthplace. The foundation for Heaven's Peace Plan at Fatima, Portugal, can be found in the Land of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Isn't that beautiful?



Islam Sees Mary as a Model for All Believers


Mentioned 34 Times in the Koran, Observes Archbishop Gioia



ROME, MAY 29, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Mary has a place in Islam too, says a Vatican aide.

"God is the only point of reference for the Muslim believer, but next to him are those who reflect his holiness. Mary is one of them," Archbishop Francesco Gioia, president of the Pilgrimages to the See of Peter.

The archbishop expounds on that point in a book, "Mary, Mother of the Word, Model of Dialogue Between Religions," published by Cittŕ Nuova.

"Mary occupies an outstanding place in Islam," he said. "She is the only woman whose name the Koran mentions -- up to 34 times."

Mary is particularly fascinating to Muslims. "She is the model of all believers because of her absolute faith and perfect 'submission' to the will of God," he added.

"Vatican Council II took note of the benevolent attitude of the Muslims toward Mary, and in the declaration 'Nostra Aetate' one reads: 'They honor Mary, the virginal mother (of Jesus), and at times invoke her with devotion," the archbishop observed.

Muslim faithful's affection and devotion for Mary is reflected in the pilgrimages they undertake to Marian shrines, especially Fatima, and in the fact that many Muslim women are called Mary, he added.

According to the Koran, "an angel, by order of God, announced to Mary that she would give birth to a most pure son, a message that disturbed her. She gave birth under a palm tree that nourished her miraculously. She was a virgin and pure. She safeguarded her virginity and God infused his Spirit in her, making her and her son a sign for creatures," Archbishop Gioia noted.

"In the Koran it is stated that Mary 'is one of the devoted women and is a saint. She is preferred, purified and chosen by God over all the women of creation,'" he added.

"In the Koran, Mary has a decided Christological function, underlined by the prevailing designation of Jesus as 'son of Mary,'" he continued.

Biographical and spiritual elements of the Koran on Mary differ from Christian tradition, however.

"Muslim Mariology is irremediably conditioned by the Koran's explicit denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ," he said.

On the figure of Mary there are "points of convergence and of divergence between Christians and Muslims," Archbishop Gioia said. "[But] the fact must not be minimized that Muslim tradition proposes Mary as a model to the faithful of Islam."



"She (Mary) is preferred, purified and chosen by God over all the women of creation" - If so doesn't that mean that Baha'is are also bound to accept it because the Quran is a fully authentic scripture? Was it Baha'u'llah who referred to her as, "that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance".

In the Islamic tradition, Mary and Jesus were the only children who could not be touched by Satan at the moment of their birth, for God imposed a veil between them and Satan. According to author Shabbir Akhtar, the Islamic perspective on Mary's Immaculate Conception is compatible with the Catholic doctrine of the same topic....which is why I originally thought that Shoghi Effendi upheld this Catholic/Muslim belief when he referred to the 'immaculacy of the Virgin' but I have since been informed that this refers only to her virginity... or that she was innocent of the charges of adultery levelled againt her in the Quran. That is an error! That is not what Islam or the Quran teaches!

Muhammad, said:

“None are born except that Satan touches them upon their birth, due to which it comes out screaming from its touch, except Mary and her son (Jesus).” (Ahmed)

Islam thus believes and upholds the Immaculate Conception, why then do Baha'is claim that when Shoghi Effendi referred to the 'Immaculacy of the Virgin' that he did not mean the same, that she was conceived/born without sin? By this I do not mean the traditional Christian understanding of 'Original Sin' but the Immaculate Conception Doctrine as seen through the lens of Islam. Islam does not propagate the theory of ‘original sin’, and therefore does not condone this interpretation of how they were free from the touch of Satan, but rather that this was a grace given by God to Mary and her son Jesus. As other prophets, Jesus was protected from committing grave sins. As for Mary, even if we take the position that she was not a prophetess, she nevertheless received the protection and guidance of God which He grants the pious believers.

I think Baha'is have misunderstood. Shoghi Effendi most definetly upheld the "Immaculate Conception" of the Virgin Mary. Muslims do is well! Shabbir Akhtar has explained the Islamic perspective on Mary's Immaculate Conception is compatible with the Catholic doctrine. Its only that Muslims reject 'original sin' but thats not the main part of the doctrine, the main part is that Mary, by a special grace given by God, was prevented from being touched by actual sin at her birth, meaning that she was incapable of committing actual sin - just like in Baha'i theology the Manifestations are perfect and sinless, Mary by a grace of God unknown to us, was also purified in that way. We already know she is the only woman to become pregnant without sperm or sex, so why shouldn't she also be sinless as Catholicism, Islam and Shoghi Effendi explain?

Last edited by Yeshua; 12-08-2010 at 10:20 AM.
 
Join Baha'i Forums


Welcome to Baha'i Forums, an open Baha'i Faith community! We welcome everyone and the community is free to join so register today and become part of the Baha'i Forums family!


Old 12-08-2010, 10:06 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Yeshua's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,922
Mary's names and titles in Islam

Qānitah: "of the Qanitin". Mary is so called in Surah of the Banning (Quran 66:12). The Arabic term implies the meaning, not only of constant submission to Allah, but also absorption in prayer and invocation, meanings that coincides with the image of Mary spending her childhood in the Mihrab. In this way, Mary personifies prayer and contemplation in Islam.

Siddiqah: “She who accepts as true” or “She who has faith”. Mary is called Siddiqah twice in the Quran. (5:73-75 62:12). The term has also been translated “She who believes sincerely totally”.

Sājidah: “She who prostrates to Allah in worship”. The Quran states: “O Mary! Worship your Lord devoutly: prostrate yourself”(Quran 3:43). While in Sujud, a Muslim is to praise Allah and glorify him. In this motion, which Muslims believe to be derived from Marian nature, hands, knees and the forehead touch the ground together.

Rāki’ah: “She who bows down to Allah in worship”. The Quran states: “O Mary! Bow down in prayer with those men who bow down.” The command was repeated by angels only to Mary, according to the Muslim view. Ruku' in Muslim prayer Salat has been derived from Mary’s practice.

Tāhirah: “She who was purified” (Quran 3:42). According to a Hadith, the devil did not touch Mary when she was born, therefore she did not cry. (Nisai 4:331) The third chapter of the Qur'an states beliefs in both the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the Virgin birth of Jesus. The Qur'an mentions Mary over 30 times, traces her genealogy to Abraham and Noah and states the belief in her Immaculate Conception. George Sale reports, in his translation of the Qur'an, that the Immaculate Conception had long been an Islamic tradition. William Bernard Ullathorne, a 19th century Catholic bishop stated that it is possible that the prophet Muhammad interacted with Christians in the great fair of Bosra and learned of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception there.


Mustafia: “She who was chosen”. The Quran states: “O Mary! Allah has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds” (Quran 3:42). According to the interpretations, the first election is intrinsic. Allah has chosen the virgin in herself and for herself, and the second time he has chosen her in regard to the world and for a divine plan.

Sa’imah: “She who fasts”. Mary is reported to fast one half of a year in Muslim tradition. The Quran says God told Mary “And if any man sees you, say, I have vowed a fast to the Most Gracious, and this day I will enter into no talk with any human being.”

Many other names of Mary can be found in various other books and religious collections. In Hadith, she has been referred to by names such as Batul and Adhraa (Ascetic Virgin), Masturah ("veiled") and Marhumah ("enveloped in Allah's Mercy")

Last edited by Yeshua; 12-08-2010 at 10:55 AM.
 
Old 12-08-2010, 10:45 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Yeshua's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,922
The Islamic interpretation of the Immaculate Conception, minus original sin, is completely compatible with the Baha'i Faith.

Which is why I take Shoghi Effendi at his word. When he spoke of the Immaculacy of the Virgin, he meant that she was sinless, specially prevented from sining at birth as Muhammad explained (she was not 'touched' by Satan).

The Virgin Birth is a totally different doctrine. You don't refer to the Virgin Birth as being "of Mary", its concerned with Jesus - he was virginally born, not Mary who was immaculately conceived/born!

To say that her immaculacy just meant she was innocent of charges also misses the mark. Shoghi Effendi was an English genius, he went to Oxford, it would be an insult against his knowledge to claim that he would not be well aware that the word "Immaculate" referred to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary. If he had meant the Virgin Birth or simply that he was innocent of charges, then I'm sure he would have said the virgin birth or that she was innocent of charges. And people wonder why we Catholics revere and adore her so much!

According to Islam and the Baha'i Faith there have been no female Prophets/Manifestations. And yet Islam tells us that one woman came damn closer than anybody else, to the point that she was actually protected by grace from sin just like Prophets/Manifestations are and that woman was Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the only woman ever in history to have given birth to a child while still a virgin and on account of this and her "immaculacy" the greatest woman in either the material or heavenly worlds, as the Quran proclaims.

Last edited by Yeshua; 12-08-2010 at 10:53 AM.
 
Old 12-08-2010, 08:20 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
arthra's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
From: California
Posts: 4,287
Yeshua I think you are inserting here your Catholic beliefs on the Baha'i Forum.

I think that Mary was not born with any special status herself other than her destiny to be the mother of Jesus..

Baha'is do not believe in the original sin doctrine as you may know. The reason she was viewed as innocent is because of the allegations made by the people in her village..

Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said,

"O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.
O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."

- Qur'an 19:27-28

In the Iqan also:

Likewise, reflect upon the state and condition of Mary. So deep was the perplexity of that most beauteous countenance, so grievous her case, that she bitterly regretted she had ever been born. To this beareth witness the text of the sacred verse wherein it is mentioned that after Mary had given birth to Jesus, she bemoaned her plight and cried out: "O would that I had died ere this, and been a thing forgotten, forgotten quite!"[1] I swear by God! Such lamenting consumeth the heart and shaketh the being. Such consternation of soul, such despondency, could have been caused by no other than the censure of the enemy and the cavilings of the infidel and perverse. Reflect, what answer could Mary have given to the people around her? How could she claim that a Babe Whose father was unknown had been conceived of the Holy Ghost? Therefore did Mary, that veiled and immortal Countenance, take up her Child and return unto her home. No sooner had the eyes of the people fallen upon her than they raised their voice 57 saying: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of wickedness, nor unchaste thy mother."[1]
[1 Qur'án 19:22.]
[2 Qur'án 19:28.]

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 55)

"It would be sacrilege for a Bahá'í to believe that the parents of Jesus were illegally married and that the latter was consequently of an illegal union. Such a possibility cannot be even conceived by a believer who recognizes the high station of Mary and the Divine Prophethood of Jesus Christ. It is this same false accusation which the people of His Day attributed to Mary that Bahá'u'lláh indirectly repudiated in the Íqán. The only alternative therefore is to admit that the birth of Jesus has been miraculous. The operation of miracles is not necessarily irrational or illogical. It does by no means constitute a limitation of the Omnipotence of God. The belief in the possibilities of miracles, on the contrary, implies that God's power is beyond any limitation whatsoever. For it is only logical to believe that the Creator, Who is the sole Author of all the laws operating in the universe, is above them and can, therefore, if He deems it necessary, alter them at His Own Will. We, as humans, cannot possibly attempt to read His Mind, and to fully grasp His Wisdom. Mystery is therefore an inseparable part of true religion, and as such, should be recognized by the believers."

(From the Guardian to an individual believer, October 1, 1935: Canadian Bahá'í News, February 1968, p. 11)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 490)

Regarding the original sin concept:

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty? ...

- Some Answered Questions pp. 118 - 121

and

Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, 7 the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an 126 idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.

SAQ p. 125 - 126

Last edited by arthra; 12-08-2010 at 08:23 PM.
 
Old 12-09-2010, 01:22 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Sen McGlinn's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Posts: 571
I think there are good reasons for thinking that Shoghi Effendi confused the doctrines of the virgin birth of Jesus and the immaculate conception of Mary. He writes:

Quote:
Count Mastai-Ferretti, Bishop of Imola, the 254th pope since the inception of St. Peter's primacy, ... will be permanently remembered as the author of the Bull which declared the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin (1854), referred to in the Kitáb-i-Íqán, to be a doctrine of the Church, and as the promulgator of the new dogma of Papal Infallibility (1870). (Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 53)
But when we turn to the Iqan, we see that it refers not to the immaculate conception of Mary, but to the Virgin birth of Jesus (which was Christian doctrine long before 1854!):

Quote:
... How could she claim that a Babe Whose father was unknown had been conceived of the Holy Ghost? Therefore did Mary, that veiled [mukhaddara, = virtuous lady, a young woman kept 'behind the curtain' and therefore virgin] and immortal Countenance, take up her Child and return unto her home. No sooner had the eyes of the people fallen upon her than they raised their voice saying: "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of wickedness, nor unchaste thy mother."
(The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 55)
This is surprising, since Shoghi Effendi went to Jesuit schools in Haifa and Beirut.

While Baha'u'llah quotes the Quran here, it does not follow that Islamic beliefs concerning Mary not being touched by Satan at birth, which are based on traditions, are also Bahai beliefs.

On the other hand, there is a term in Bahai and Shiah theology which approximates to immaculacy, and that is ma`sum, meaning infallibility/divine protection/chastity, which has various degrees. The Most Great Infallibility of the Manifestation means he can change the social teachings and laws of religion (for example, for Jesus it is no sin to change the law of divorce; but for someone else within Judaism it would have been a sin to do so). The Guardian can lay down authoritative interpretations of Bahai teachings (but not of Catholic teachings!), but if I tried to do that it would be a sin, and so on. So it has something to do with sin, but much more to do with sovereign authority, and especially authority to change things which are established.

There are "people of `ismat", translated by Shoghi Effendi as "the Immaculate souls" (Iqan 35), whom his Shiah readers would understand to be the 14 immaculate ones: the 12 Imams, Fatimah and Muhammad ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourteen_Infallibles ). There is no list of who the people of `ismat are in the Bahai teachings, and so far as I know, no definite statement that the Virgin Mary is to be regarded as one of them. It is a reasonable assumption

Last edited by Sen McGlinn; 12-09-2010 at 01:49 AM. Reason: added ma`sum and "people of `ismat.
 
Old 12-09-2010, 03:09 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Yeshua's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
I think there are good reasons for thinking that Shoghi Effendi confused the doctrines of the virgin birth of Jesus and the immaculate conception of Mary. He writes:



But when we turn to the Iqan, we see that it refers not to the immaculate conception of Mary, but to the Virgin birth of Jesus (which was Christian doctrine long before 1854!):



This is surprising, since Shoghi Effendi went to Jesuit schools in Haifa and Beirut.

While Baha'u'llah quotes the Quran here, it does not follow that Islamic beliefs concerning Mary not being touched by Satan at birth, which are based on traditions, are also Bahai beliefs.

On the other hand, there is a term in Bahai and Shiah theology which approximates to immaculacy, and that is ma`sum, meaning infallibility/divine protection/chastity, which has various degrees. The Most Great Infallibility of the Manifestation means he can change the social teachings and laws of religion (for example, for Jesus it is no sin to change the law of divorce; but for someone else within Judaism it would have been a sin to do so). The Guardian can lay down authoritative interpretations of Bahai teachings (but not of Catholic teachings!), but if I tried to do that it would be a sin, and so on. So it has something to do with sin, but much more to do with sovereign authority, and especially authority to change things which are established.

There are "people of `ismat", translated by Shoghi Effendi as "the Immaculate souls" (Iqan 35), whom his Shiah readers would understand to be the 14 immaculate ones: the 12 Imams, Fatimah and Muhammad ( The Fourteen Infallibles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). There is no list of who the people of `ismat are in the Bahai teachings, and so far as I know, no definite statement that the Virgin Mary is to be regarded as one of them. It is a reasonable assumption
Thank you Sen

Maybe I am jumping the gun a bit. I just like that my Islamic brethren also revere Mary highly to the extent that they see her as not being touched by sin/Satan. Since one of her titles in Islam is "the Pure One", and since Islamic tradition - reputedly or so I have heard to be quite historically accurate Hadith - says that she was not touched by sin, could that not be a possible case for considering that she may be "an immaculate one" like the 12 Imams?

I just don't buy the idea that such a man of great English skill as Shoghi Effendi would confuse "immaculacy" with "virginity", especially since there is already a precedent in Islam for the belief that Mary was "pure" from birth and not touched by Satan like most ordinary people.
And there is another point: Islam seems to have OFFICCIALLY believed in the Immaculacy of Mary long before Catholics in 1854!

I say, well done Muslims

The Hadith which says that Mary was not touched by Satan was written in Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 506:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."


Is this particular Hadith considered to be an unreliable one in the Baha'i Faith?

Quote:
Yeshua I think you are inserting here your Catholic beliefs on the Baha'i Forum.
Hi arthra

I think thats slightly unfair. There is a commonly held Islamic belief that Mary was not touched by Satan, was pure and committed no actual sins. This has nothing to do with Catholic original sin, so I think it is slighty unfair of you to suggest that I am trying to interject Catholic ideas into Baha'i Forums If you don't believe it is an Islamic belief, minus the original sin, then you can ask a Muslim and they will tell you that there is a precedent for such a belief in Islam.

I am actually doubting original sin myself now and taking a more "Orthodox line", so I am mystified as to why you keep mentioning original sin when I expressly said "minus original sin" in my original post. I'm talking about the Islamic view of Mary as born "Sinless" and "pure" because she was not touched by Satan. I have not mentioned any Catholic beliefs, which are quite distinctive because of original sin.

Sorry if your angry with me

Last edited by Yeshua; 12-09-2010 at 03:24 AM.
 
Old 12-09-2010, 06:32 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
arthra's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
From: California
Posts: 4,287
Yeshua,

I am not angry with you.. please don't suggest that.

But once again you've started a thread here to project your own views.. Three posts without much sourcing ..For instance you copy and paste material from this site "The World seen from Rome":

http://www.zenit.org/article-7383?l=english

and some others and add your comments.

Satan, original sin or the orthodox views on the subject have little weight here with Baha'is. Baha'is don't accept Satan as an entity or being in opposition to God..that's a very literalist view.

It is not some assorted Islamic views about Mary that we Baha'is are interested in so much as Baha'i sources.

You probably should post these materials on a Catholic or Islamic forum if that's what you want but it does really seem to me you tend to be exploiting our openess on this forum to project your ideas without having much dialog or consideration for others.

Last edited by arthra; 12-09-2010 at 07:31 AM.
 
Old 12-09-2010, 10:04 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Yeshua's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra View Post
Yeshua it does really seem to me you tend to be exploiting our openess on this forum to project your ideas without having much dialog or consideration for others.


Well all I can say is that I apologize if this is indeed the case, especially if others would agree with you and it is not just a personal observation on your part. I certainly have not intended, deliberately, to exploit anybody or to lack consideration for the views of others. I do not recall ever being directly rude or inflammatory to anybody on this forum. I do have my own views and maybe they would be more suited to a different forum and maybe I am presenting them in the wrong manner but to accuse me of being inconsiderate of other peoples views or that I am exploiting the openess of this forum to project my own views, I do actually find that rather hurtful as I have never had anyone say that to me on any other forum. But I am a fallible being and deeply flawed, so perhaps you are right.

Oh well....
 
Old 12-09-2010, 02:37 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: USA
Posts: 190
Did Baha'u'llah say Mary remained a virgin her entire life? I know that Catholics believe so, but there is still some debate.
 
Old 12-10-2010, 03:10 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Sen McGlinn's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeshua View Post
Thank you Sen
The Hadith which says that Mary was not touched by Satan was written in Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 506:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."

Is this particular Hadith considered to be an unreliable one in the Baha'i Faith?
There's no list of reliable hadith, but we have this general principle from a tablet of Abdu'l-Baha:

"Thou has written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrims' note. Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 438)

The tradition you quote is childish: Satan is pictured as an invisible being with fingers who waits beside every birth on the planet (busy fellow) and touches a child with sin as it leaves its mother, but in the case of Mary he slips and touches the placenta instead. Muhammad was far too intelligent to be the source of this nonsense.

Sen
 
Old 12-10-2010, 11:49 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
arthra's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
From: California
Posts: 4,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryK32 View Post
Did Baha'u'llah say Mary remained a virgin her entire life? I know that Catholics believe so, but there is still some debate.
If you can't find it in the Writings as a general rule it's more likely in my view regarded as an "invention" ..an "add on" by a church..

It's one thing to say personally believe Mary was "ever virgin" physically something like that and another to insist that everyone should believe it as in a "dogma" a dogma being a requirement to accept in a church.

Review what that word "dogma" means..

"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioner or believers.." - per wikipedia.

I would say the virgin birth of Jesus is probably a miracle Baha'is accept and it's in the Qur'an as well. We would acknowledge there are such things as miracles but not accept them say as proofs or make them say a requirement as in a dogma.

Another example would be that Mary was "assumed" into heaven..or physically ascended like Jesus..

See:

Assumption of Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baha'is believe His Spirit ascended..just as we believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah ascended.. that Their Spirits ascended but not that They physically and literally ascended.

Baha'o'llah represents all these, and thus destroys the rivalries and the enmities of the different religions; reconciles them in their primitive purity, and frees them from the corruption of dogmas and rites. For Bahaism has no clergy, no religious ceremonial, no public prayers; its only dogma is belief in God and in his Manifestations (Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, et al., Baha'o'llah).

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. vii)


The following letter was written by Shoghi Effendi to Mrs. Corinne True ...

"My dear co-worker: The meetings in the Temple Foundation Hall should be primarily devotional in character, and any addresses delivered there must be of a strictly Bahá'í character. The Teachings must be referred to, quoted, explained and amplified, and if non-Bahá'í subjects are referred to, they should be considered in the light, and in confirmation of, Bahá'í principles and teachings. We must preserve the identity and purity of the Faith, without restricting it to a rigid and exclusive dogma.

Your true brother and well-wisher,

(Signed) SHOGHI."

Haifa, Palestine

May 1, 1929

(Shoghi Effendi, Extracts from the USBN)

Last edited by arthra; 12-11-2010 at 12:02 AM.
 
Old 12-11-2010, 04:40 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Yeshua's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
From: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
There's no list of reliable hadith, but we have this general principle from a tablet of Abdu'l-Baha:

"Thou has written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrims' note. Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 438)

The tradition you quote is childish: Satan is pictured as an invisible being with fingers who waits beside every birth on the planet (busy fellow) and touches a child with sin as it leaves its mother, but in the case of Mary he slips and touches the placenta instead. Muhammad was far too intelligent to be the source of this nonsense.

Sen
You gave me a laugh Sen, thank you
 
Reply

  Baha'i Forums > Baha'i Forums > Interfaith

Tags
bahai, faith, islam, mary, virgin

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Facebook @bahaiforums RSS


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2006 - 2014 Bahai Forums. All rights reserved.