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Old 01-18-2011, 11:52 AM   #1
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Ahmadiyya Muslims

Has anyone heard of this group?

While some of the few quotes of their writings I have read seem quite forceful and rarely seem inspired, the correlations to Baha'i scripture is quite astounding. Their founder also claims to be the Mahdi and Messiah, as well as claiming the same ties to Buddhism and Hinduism. They also promote non-violence and uphold jihad as personal struggle not the waring aspects Muslims have accepted widely.

They differ in many ways, they uphold more closely everything in the Qu'ran and much of their writings are about this book. He also claims Jesus didn't actually die on the cross, but rather journeyed to India where he died an old man of natural causes.

Obviously, I do not believe time based prophecies apply since it was founded in 1889, thus 45 years late for Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Hindu prophecy at least. They also call their leader Caliph, which I agree with Riggs is the mark of the beast - the 666 referred to in Revelation. Still, it is interesting, could their leader have been exposed to Baha'u'llahs writings at this time? There are already 200 million members of this group apparently, so I think it would be a valuable group to target with pioneering, they already accept many things Baha'u'llah has said so presenting time based prophecies might be enough to bring them to the Baha'i Faith?

I sort of liken them to Mormonism in that they have writings that correlate to what Baha'u'llah has said - and in the case of Mormonism, accurately describes the Baha'i dispensations coming - however entirely focus on a previous dispensation rather than bringing anything new.

Last edited by Lunitik; 01-18-2011 at 12:18 PM.
 
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:28 PM   #2
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Muslims For Peace - Love for All, Hatred for None

Another interesting contrast is that of their claims of love for country, they serve in the military, run for office, and vote. They also uphold a separation of church and state, and set anti-terrorism at the top of their list of catch phrases.

I see nothing directing the reader along a path of initial investigation, however, and nothing pertaining to proofs. I am going to shoot them an e-mail requesting such information.

http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/

This is where they discuss the life of Jesus after the crucifixion. Obviously, this goes against what at least Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi has said - I am not aware of Baha'u'llah discussing the death of Jesus?

Last edited by Lunitik; 01-18-2011 at 12:54 PM.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 01:04 PM   #3
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I remember some very active discussions on the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup in the mid-90's with some Ahmadiyya. It seemed to me then, and still seems to me today, that their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad may have been very sensitive to the spiritual currents of the time, in much the same way that Joseph Smith was. Sensitive, yes, but not fully receptive; if he had been fully receptive, then I think he would have recognized Baha'u'llah

If I recall correctly, there are two major Ahmadi groups that differ on their understanding of the station of Ghulam Ahmad. One group claimed that he was the Mahdi, and the other viewed him as more of a reformer (I may be mistaken on the details of the distinction).
 
Old 01-18-2011, 01:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rreini View Post
I remember some very active discussions on the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup in the mid-90's with some Ahmadiyya. It seemed to me then, and still seems to me today, that their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad may have been very sensitive to the spiritual currents of the time, in much the same way that Joseph Smith was. Sensitive, yes, but not fully receptive; if he had been fully receptive, then I think he would have recognized Baha'u'llah

If I recall correctly, there are two major Ahmadi groups that differ on their understanding of the station of Ghulam Ahmad. One group claimed that he was the Mahdi, and the other viewed him as more of a reformer (I may be mistaken on the details of the distinction).
They state that the Mahdi is The Great Reformer, in both groups.

The separation is based on the station of Mirza Ahmad - one group says he is a prophet, the other simply a reformer - and over disagreements about the appointment of the founders Son as a Caliph.

The group that separated is said to number around 5-10 thousand in total, while the main group is supposedly around 200 million strong.

Last edited by Lunitik; 01-18-2011 at 01:24 PM.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 02:47 PM   #5
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They believe JEsus didn't die and that he lived in india for the rest of his life. Heresy based on nothing.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:05 PM   #6
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Lunitik wrote:

While some of the few quotes of their writings I have read seem quite forceful and rarely seem inspired, the correlations to Baha'i scripture is quite astounding.

I haven't seen much comparison myself on this really ..but Ahmadiyyihs are still Muslims themselves. Another Mahdi movement in Islam that was well known was in the Sudan in the nineteenth century.

I don't think there's an official position on them anymore than re. Muslims in general from our administration.

Baha'i Faith was probably the only movement in recent times that originated out of Islam and became an indendent religion.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:11 PM   #7
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They believe JEsus didn't die and that he lived in india for the rest of his life. Heresy based on nothing.
Heresy according to your faith, personal investigation according to mine.

They have a tomb in India that was restored that fits several descriptions of Jesus. This is where the Lost Tribes apparently have been tracked today, and thus is what they say he went there for.

Not just this, it is said that Jesus was only on the cross for several hours. The cross did not kill this quickly, it was intended to last multiple days. A noble apparently ordered him taken off the cross, this group puts forth the idea that he simply wasn't dead - this being how he came back as a man, not a spirit. They state that he was cleansed with various ointments that sped healing and then began his pilgrimage East. This is entirely from outside of this faith, and they simply confirm much of what has been learned.

I'm not saying I believe this guys claims overall, but I am certainly saying his course of events are more reasonable than a guy dying of the flesh, rotting for 3 days, then coming back to life requiring food.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:22 PM   #8
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Heresy either way you cut it as it directly contradicts your very prophet. Like how the Christian view contradicts your prophet. It is heresy one way or another. There is no support for such a claim other than an obscure document which no one can name or find.

Now it is true that Jesus was on the cross a short amount of time but that is no justification for believing this. Do you immediately support any idea? Because this very idea contradicts bahai, If I am not mistaken.

I would ask for a single document within the first century or second or third which tells us christ went to india. there is none. That is even less they base their faith on than the bahai.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:56 PM   #9
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Heresy either way you cut it as it directly contradicts your very prophet. Like how the Christian view contradicts your prophet. It is heresy one way or another. There is no support for such a claim other than an obscure document which no one can name or find.

Now it is true that Jesus was on the cross a short amount of time but that is no justification for believing this. Do you immediately support any idea? Because this very idea contradicts bahai, If I am not mistaken.

I would ask for a single document within the first century or second or third which tells us christ went to india. there is none. That is even less they base their faith on than the bahai.
You do not define a Covenant breaker here, please note that Baha'is are instructed to pursue their own investigation of truth. This is exactly what I am presenting, something I was looking into.

Also, please show me where I have voiced support for this view over the Baha'i view in this thread, thank you in advance.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 03:58 PM   #10
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I haven't defined anything. BUt I would consider within the bahai context this belief heretical, much like the physical ressurection would. Though everything is relative I suppose whether christ existed or not doesn't matter.

That being said, you were offerring an argument for this view and thus seemed to support it. It was misleading. Either you believe it or you don't.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Orthodox View Post
I haven't defined anything. BUt I would consider within the bahai context this belief heretical, much like the physical ressurection would. Though everything is relative I suppose whether christ existed or not doesn't matter.

That being said, you were offerring an argument for this view and thus seemed to support it. It was misleading. Either you believe it or you don't.
You claimed it would be heresy as a Baha'i also, this is false.

Since you presented lack of willingness to look into their claims in an open minded way, I attempted to briefly describe them that you might become curious.

You are now attempting to engage in disputation, however, and thus I will not engage.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:04 PM   #12
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I have looked into this claim of Jesus in india, him dying in india. It is based on nothing. Whenever I have asked for a document concerning this I am always referred to an obscure document which is apparently in some monastary in india. Now, Im glad you don't support such an idiotic idea.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:19 PM   #13
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Why must you make such claims as something is "an idiot idea" when it is clearly reasonable and supportable? Why can't you simply approach things with an open mind? Do you understand it is people like yourself that are causing people to keep God out of their life?

Causing a doubt towards leadership is one thing, but simply not permitting expansive thought? I really wish you'd change your attitudes.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:27 PM   #14
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supportable? What valid evidence is there for it? there is no early document for it but instead a document claimed to be valid yet it was most likely forged.

Now, am I keeping people from God? No, it is themselves who keep people from coming to God. IF they can't be willing to read the orthodox material then it is their ownselves.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:30 PM   #15
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Orthodox, you say their belief that Jesus went to India after being crucified is absurd. Okay.

You think he came back to life.
Think about it. T_T
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:34 PM   #16
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supportable? What valid evidence is there for it? there is no early document for it but instead a document claimed to be valid yet it was most likely forged.

Now, am I keeping people from God? No, it is themselves who keep people from coming to God. IF they can't be willing to read the orthodox material then it is their ownselves.
I have read a lot of orthodox material, I simply refuse to fit my perceptions of the world into a box. Little in this world can be neatly assigned to either black or white, almost everything is a shade of grey.

Their site discusses several justifications for their claims, I have stated I will not engage in that aspect of the discussion however.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:36 PM   #17
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I believe that God through his absolute power is not limited by natural phenonema. The only way your example works is by assuming naturalism of somekind. Whereas my Belief is not based on any presupposed ideology but historical documents and history.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:37 PM   #18
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Orthodox, you say their belief that Jesus went to India after being crucified is absurd. Okay.

You think he came back to life.
Think about it. T_T
I was actually trying to avoid this being stated outright... ugh

Please do not address his answer to this statement.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:30 PM   #19
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I like chocolate milk guys
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:21 PM   #20
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I've been interested with the Ahmadiyya Muslims, but have failed to look into them yet. I do believe there is an 8-part documentary about them on You Tube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sboyce
I like chocolate milk guys
Amen!

God Bless Y'all.

Last edited by Veremo; 01-18-2011 at 06:24 PM.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 08:43 PM   #21
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Heresy according to your faith, personal investigation according to mine.

They have a tomb in India that was restored that fits several descriptions of Jesus. This is where the Lost Tribes apparently have been tracked today, and thus is what they say he went there for.

Not just this, it is said that Jesus was only on the cross for several hours. The cross did not kill this quickly, it was intended to last multiple days. A noble apparently ordered him taken off the cross, this group puts forth the idea that he simply wasn't dead - this being how he came back as a man, not a spirit. They state that he was cleansed with various ointments that sped healing and then began his pilgrimage East. This is entirely from outside of this faith, and they simply confirm much of what has been learned.

I'm not saying I believe this guys claims overall, but I am certainly saying his course of events are more reasonable than a guy dying of the flesh, rotting for 3 days, then coming back to life requiring food.
We had an Ahmadiyyih that frequented the Baha'i forum on beliefnet about five years ago and he maintained the site on the net about Jesus supposed tomb in Srinagar.. The Baha'i view is that Jesus physically died on the cross and was martyred.

Well anyway eventually he became a Baha'i.

I've also looked into some of these evidence... You know there's a reputed tomb of Mary in the area as well as a tomb of Moses.. They don't say as much about these reputed tombs..

There's also a story about Jesus travelling to Britain with Joseph of Arimathea and Glastonbury was a palce where they visited.

Was Jesus taught by the Druids of Glastonbury? New film claims it is possible he came to England | Mail Online

Therwe's a reputed tomb of Jesus in Japan:

Tomb of Jesus in Japan
 
Old 01-18-2011, 09:28 PM   #22
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Give us a break

There is enough to argue about without discussing obscure information like this

The Baha'i point of view is our scripture and does not support this claim

By the way did you hear that Elvis is in Australia?

Cheers Tony
 
Old 01-18-2011, 09:53 PM   #23
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Give us a break

There is enough to argue about without discussing obscure information like this

The Baha'i point of view is our scripture and does not support this claim

By the way did you hear that Elvis is in Australia?

Cheers Tony
Hey Tony.. Leave my cousin out of this!
 
Old 01-18-2011, 09:59 PM   #24
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Hey Tony.. Leave my cousin out of this!
Ok - just because you asked nicely - I will

Cheers Tony
 
Old 01-19-2011, 04:15 AM   #25
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Heresy according to your faith, personal investigation according to mine.
Not so, because of this:

Quote:
it was founded in 1889...
This means that if its founder is claiming direct inspiration from God, then it falls directly under the thousand-year exclusion stated by Baha'u'llah!

And it therefore can't be a legitimate religion.

Simple as that!

Peace,

Bruce
 
Old 01-19-2011, 04:33 AM   #26
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I think that this thread has sadly wandered from its original and ver interesting discussion of Ahmadiyya Islam to a debate about the Resurrection...if Orthodox brings up something pertaining to Christian belief, and it is not a thread specifically concerning Christian belief, can people simply learn to not reply to him since it is off-topic? Please...

Anyhow, Ahmadis...Very intriguing people. I have read somewhat in their beliefs and their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam envisioned the movement to be a revitalization, reformation and fulfilment of Islam - but not, as Arthra correctly noted, an independent religion although they are considered to be heretics by mainstream Muslims. In several Islamic countries today Ahmadis have been marginalised by the majority religious community; severe persecution and often systematic oppression have led many Ahmadis to emigrate and settle elsewhere. There main headquarters are now in London because they cannot peacefully co-exist within Islamic countries without incurring extreme persecution of their beliefs. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian proclaimed himself to be the “Reformer of the age” (Mujaddid), Promised Messiah and the Mahdi awaited by the Muslims and obtained a considerable number of followers especially within the United Provinces, the Punjab and Sind.

One of their most distinctive - and attractive - beliefs is that the Caliphate has been misunderstood as being a political, earthly entity and is actually a spiritual Kingdom not of this world, but within the hearts of men and represented on earth by the Umma (Worldwide body of Ahmaddiyya Mulslims) and its leader who is called the Caliph...I highly doubt that the Caliph of Ahmaddiya Islam is the Antichrist...

In my opinion they are a very welcome Movement within Islam. They have spiritualized and re-interpreted many of the more negative, aggressive and reactionary currents within traditional, Orthodox Shi'ah and Sunni Islam. Theirs is a very enlightened, spiritualized and uplifting interpretation of the Qur'an.

Nevertheless they are not without their fair share of bad points. They mandate that all men must wear Turbans and all women headscarves...they thus have a very strict dress code. I will detail some of the other issues later when I have the chance.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 04:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by BruceDLimber View Post
Not so, because of this:



This means that if its founder is claiming direct inspiration from God, then it falls directly under the thousand-year exclusion stated by Baha'u'llah!

And it therefore can't be a legitimate religion.

Simple as that!

Peace,

Bruce
Baha'i theology distinguish between "Revelation" and "inspiration" does it not? If he experienced direct "inspiration", as you say, is that not different from "revelation" in the Baha'i understanding?

For Baha'is only Manifestations can have "Revelation" but "Inspiration" is supposedly open to ordinary human beings if God so chooses, am I not right? Did Baha'u'llah not say that there would not be "revelation" for at least 1,000 years? If he said "inspiration" then that would even include the Baha'i Universal House of Justice which is considered inspired enough by God to make infallible statements on issues not covered by Baha'i scripture.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 07:10 AM   #28
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Ahmadiyya means Sufi to me...

I have looked into Sufism, and I think Ahmadiyyia could be defined as a Sufi group. The Sufi movement within Islam has a long tradition based on Unity and Mysticism, and Islam has a long history of trying to stop them. Each Sufi school is based on a teacher, and the students revere the teacher, while trying to perfect themselves through social and spiritual disciplines. Many Muslims who were interviewed after the events of 9/11 called themselves Sufis, and while not describing any particular school of thought, said they believe in spiritual perfection and unity. These were highly principaled and courageous individuals.

Ahmadiyyia has become large and strong enough to have a distinct name, but they are still a perceived threat to the Orthodox, and so they are persecuted.
How the Faith of Islam can love the poetry of the Sufis and hate the lovers is still a mystery to me, and it seems that Islam has a split-personality in the modern world.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 07:27 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceDLimber View Post
Not so, because of this:



This means that if its founder is claiming direct inspiration from God, then it falls directly under the thousand-year exclusion stated by Baha'u'llah!

And it therefore can't be a legitimate religion.

Simple as that!

Peace,

Bruce


I think it can still be a legitimate religion since regular man can still recieve inspiration from God. They would just not have a manefestation and therefore are on thier way to becoming Baha'is
 
Old 01-19-2011, 07:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by kathij View Post
I have looked into Sufism, and I think Ahmadiyyia could be defined as a Sufi group. The Sufi movement within Islam has a long tradition based on Unity and Mysticism, and Islam has a long history of trying to stop them. Each Sufi school is based on a teacher, and the students revere the teacher, while trying to perfect themselves through social and spiritual disciplines. Many Muslims who were interviewed after the events of 9/11 called themselves Sufis, and while not describing any particular school of thought, said they believe in spiritual perfection and unity. These were highly principaled and courageous individuals.

Ahmadiyyia has become large and strong enough to have a distinct name, but they are still a perceived threat to the Orthodox, and so they are persecuted.
How the Faith of Islam can love the poetry of the Sufis and hate the lovers is still a mystery to me, and it seems that Islam has a split-personality in the modern world.
I honestly can't say I know much about Sufi's, this is somewhat intriguing however, so I will need to. Thank you for sharing!
 
Old 01-19-2011, 07:44 AM   #31
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We had an Ahmadiyyih that frequented the Baha'i forum on beliefnet about five years ago and he maintained the site on the net about Jesus supposed tomb in Srinagar.. The Baha'i view is that Jesus physically died on the cross and was martyred.

Well anyway eventually he became a Baha'i.
This is more my point, most outside faiths I have brought up in threads beyond the big 5 have been due to ease of reaching out to them with relation to the Baha'i faith.

For me, it seems like there are several faiths in the world intended to ease the entry to the Baha'i faith. There was that faith in China that was trying to marry things like Confucianism, Buddhism etc into Abramaic faiths - reintroducing an concept of God to faiths that do not currently emphasize Him. There is the Mormons, trying to show Christians several alternative translations that happen to be closer to the Baha'i view. Now there is this Islamic group.

Baha'is are not permitted to attempt to convert others, perhaps these groups are to do this for Baha'is in that they are something of a stepping stone in each case?
 
Old 01-19-2011, 07:51 AM   #32
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I think that this thread has sadly wandered from its original and ver interesting discussion of Ahmadiyya Islam to a debate about the Resurrection...if Orthodox brings up something pertaining to Christian belief, and it is not a thread specifically concerning Christian belief, can people simply learn to not reply to him since it is off-topic? Please...

Anyhow, Ahmadis...Very intriguing people. I have read somewhat in their beliefs and their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam envisioned the movement to be a revitalization, reformation and fulfilment of Islam - but not, as Arthra correctly noted, an independent religion although they are considered to be heretics by mainstream Muslims. In several Islamic countries today Ahmadis have been marginalised by the majority religious community; severe persecution and often systematic oppression have led many Ahmadis to emigrate and settle elsewhere. There main headquarters are now in London because they cannot peacefully co-exist within Islamic countries without incurring extreme persecution of their beliefs. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian proclaimed himself to be the “Reformer of the age” (Mujaddid), Promised Messiah and the Mahdi awaited by the Muslims and obtained a considerable number of followers especially within the United Provinces, the Punjab and Sind.

One of their most distinctive - and attractive - beliefs is that the Caliphate has been misunderstood as being a political, earthly entity and is actually a spiritual Kingdom not of this world, but within the hearts of men and represented on earth by the Umma (Worldwide body of Ahmaddiyya Mulslims) and its leader who is called the Caliph...I highly doubt that the Caliph of Ahmaddiya Islam is the Antichrist...

In my opinion they are a very welcome Movement within Islam. They have spiritualized and re-interpreted many of the more negative, aggressive and reactionary currents within traditional, Orthodox Shi'ah and Sunni Islam. Theirs is a very enlightened, spiritualized and uplifting interpretation of the Qur'an.

Nevertheless they are not without their fair share of bad points. They mandate that all men must wear Turbans and all women headscarves...they thus have a very strict dress code. I will detail some of the other issues later when I have the chance.
I agree with this, thank you for sharing!

For me, it is quite interesting to see how many Muslims are actually willing to accept that indeed these returns are valid prophecy. As I already asserted, I think perhaps Ahmad had heard of either Bab or Baha'u'llah and found it interesting but did not totally believe, thus has applied these things to an even more devout although much more spiritual Muslim group. I certainly respect their motives based on what little I've read of them.

Even if the 1290 of the Muslim Calendar was valid through other time prophecies (ie, Jewish, Hindu, Christian, and Muslim) as the 1260 is, it would still not explain why this movement started in 1889. It would have had to start 15 years prior to be valid with this claim. For me, it is interesting how little genuine proof they required to accept Ahmad.

Last edited by Lunitik; 01-19-2011 at 08:12 AM.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 07:54 AM   #33
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I like chocolate milk guys
Yum
 
Old 01-19-2011, 08:00 AM   #34
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I honestly can't say I know much about Sufi's, this is somewhat intriguing however, so I will need to. Thank you for sharing!
Check out this soul-stirring video Luni - and be prepared to fall in love with Rumi - my favorite Sufi!
YouTube - Deepak Choopra, A Gift Of Love - The Love Poems Of Rumi
 
Old 01-19-2011, 08:09 AM   #35
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Check out this soul-stirring video Luni - and be prepared to fall in love with Rumi - my favorite Sufi!]
Beautiful, thank you!
 
Old 01-19-2011, 08:15 AM   #36
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I agree with this, thank you for sharing!

For me, it is quite interesting to see how many Muslims are actually willing to accept that indeed these returns are valid prophecy. As I already asserted, I think perhaps Ahmad had heard of either Bab or Baha'u'llah and found it interesting but did not totally believe, thus has applied these things to an even more devout although much more spiritual Muslim group. I certainly respect their motives based on what little I've read of them.

Even if the 1290 of the Muslim Calendar was valid through other time prophecies (ie, Jewish, Hindu, Christian, and Muslim) as the 1260 is, it would still not explain why this movement started in 1889. It would have had to start 15 years prior to be valid with this claim.
I too respect their motives Lunitik They are one of the fastest growing Islamic groups...indeed I often wonder when people said in the past that Islam is the fastest growing religion if they are actually referring to Ahmadiyya, which is growing and has grown very rapidly...they claim to have numbers in the tens of Millions, which is colossal and awe-inspiring by any standards, especially for a reletively new sect...
You may be interested to know that his book, Barahin-i Ahmadiyya, which he began to publish in 1880, was well received by his Islamic community when it was first published. Before proclaiming himself the "Great Reformer" and "Mahdi", he was very well received by Muslims as a top-rate Imam and scholar of the religion...Of course it all went pear-shaped when he declared himself to be "Mahdi"...

Also it is arguable that the Movement did not begn in 1889 but rather 1882. Ghulam Ahmad claimed divine appointment as a reformer as early as 1882, so if we consider the beginning of any sect or religion to be when its Founder declares itself to be divinely ordained or have an oracle, then 1882 is the date when the Ahmadiyya was properly born. In December 1888 Ahmad announced that God had ordained him that his followers should enter into a Bay'ah with him and pledge their allegiance to him. In January 1889 he published a pamphlet in which he laid out ten conditions or issues to which the initiate would abide by for the rest of his life. On 23 March 1889 he founded the Ahmadiyya community by taking a pledge from forty followers...so you see the progression here. Ahmadiyyas themselves date the birth of their religion from 1889 but it is arguable, from a chronological perspective, to say that 1882 is also a potencial date.

He was accused of creating a new religion, a heretical act in Islam, which he repeatedly denied claiming only an Islamic revival and rejuvenation and that he was a Prophet within the Ummah and dispensation of Muhammad just as Jesus was a prophet within the dispensation of Moses...This is an interesting perspective, since scholars have now proven that Jesus did not found a new religion. Christianity existed for its first 40 years as a sect of Judaism. Most of the converts were Jews, who followed Jewish law, although it was beginning to branch out to include Gentiles. The 'break' in which the two belief systems became separate religions is estimated to around the time of the Jewish Revolt and destruction of the Temple, roughly AD 66-70. After that Christians considered themselves to have a separate identity and it was becoming more and more a Gentile religion...although Jewish believers in Christ remained and retained their full connection with Judaism and remained full Jews up and until the fifth Century AD. So there was never a clean "break" between Judaism and Christianity as there was say, between Hinduism and Buddhism or Islam and Babism. So I agree with him, to an extent, on that front.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 08:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by whine of astonsihment View Post
Check out this soul-stirring video Luni - and be prepared to fall in love with Rumi - my favorite Sufi!
YouTube - Deepak Choopra, A Gift Of Love - The Love Poems Of Rumi
For me Rumi is utterly Divine...he is a like a spiritual brother. His experiences of God were so stunningly sublime...although I must also rank Attar, Al-Hallaj, Sa'adi and Hafiz on a similar plane of mystical enlightenment...Sufism, as exemplified by such holy men, is truly incredible. In many ways I consider myself to be a Sufi. Suf comes from the Arabic for "wool", which means asectics and the Persian for "pure", which refers to purity of heart and the word is furthermore considered by many scholars to be an adaption of the Greek, and Christian, concept of Sophia or "God's Wisdom" which embodied many feminine qualities. In that sense, of hungering after union with God in his infinite wisdom, in striving to assume a level of spiritual poverty and purity of soul, I consider myself to be a Sufi - a Lover of Sophia (Wisdom)! Many scholars believe that there is a direct link between the Christian Desert Fathers and Mothers and the Sufis...when many of these Syrian and Arab Christian mystics were converted to Islam, they brought with them this Christian mysticism, which Christianity had in turn received from Jewish mysticism and which stemmed from the creation of humanity...Sufism is thus considered to be something bigger even than Islam, connecting every single religion together as if in a web....beautiful.

I once created a video with Coleman Barkks reciting one of Rumi's poems which I combined with footage of Native American ritual and poetry...I got an astounding response...I really must put it up on youtube for you to see!

Is there anyway of uploading videos onto a forum direct from your computer? I made it as a quick-time and I really would love to share it with you guys!!!!

Last edited by Yeshua; 01-19-2011 at 08:28 AM.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 08:40 AM   #38
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I'm going to try and convert it into AVI and put it up on youtube tonight. Then I'll post a link to it on Baha'i Forums!

The translation used in my video is not literal. It is a paraphrase by Barks which exudes what Rumi's message in the poem was - namely that differences of religion and culture are meaningless, that the true lover of God is neither Muslim, Christian or Jew, not from the East or West but is simply human and what unites all of us is our "breath, breathing, human being" - our humanity. I selected ethereal, earth-based footage of Native American culture to try and hit this fact home. I ended it, I must warn you though, with a kind-of erotic encounter between a Native woman and a Native man...my rationale was that Rumi and all Sufi mystics (And Christian ones) chaacterized the love between God and Man as the love between Beloved and Lover, Man and Woman. The symbolism of my footage, in tune with the words, will hopefully make this apparent.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 09:18 AM   #39
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whine of astonsihment's Avatar
 
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Originally Posted by Yeshua View Post
I'm going to try and convert it into AVI and put it up on youtube tonight. Then I'll post a link to it on Baha'i Forums!

I must warn you though, with a kind-of erotic encounter between a Native woman and a Native man...my rationale was that Rumi and all Sufi mystics (And Christian ones) chaacterized the love between God and Man as the love between Beloved and Lover, Man and Woman. The symbolism of my footage, in tune with the words, will hopefully make this apparent.
Actually, that's probably the most appropriate analogy Yeshua and I'm looking forward to your video.
My understanding is that in relation to God we are all 'female' so to speak and by willingly 'opening' ourselves to the Beloved a 'seed' is planted inside us which grows and eventually bears the fruit called 'Faith'.

"And now I give you a commandment which shall be for a Covenant between you and me: that ye have faith; that your faith be steadfast as a rock that no storms can move, that nothing can disturb, and that it endure through all things even to the end;
As ye have faith so shall your powers and blessings be. This is the standard -- this is the standard -- this is the standard"

(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 503)
 
Old 01-19-2011, 09:27 AM   #40
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OK here it is. I must apologize because the dimensions of the screen are TINY but I will fix that in future. Nevertheless, I hope you enjoy it (and don't get sore eyes from trying to read tiny print LOL)

YouTube - Rumi: We are One Breath (With footage of Native Americans)
 
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