imranshaykh

You must be really desperate to win if you want to base your entire religion on one topic when there are several topics to talk about and this is only one.

Physical return may not make any sense to you. But makes perfect sense in Islam because it has been done several times in the past - not just for prophets, but for humans and even for animals.

But before I get into that, you should know that just because it does not make sense to you, it does not mean anything. The prophet and the Imams told us through undisputed traditions that Jesus will return in person. He is on the 4th Heaven and on the command of Allah will return. They told us that when he will return, he will be invited to lead the prayer, but he will defer to the Mahdi. He will assist the Mahdi in establishing justice and equality in the world. So there is nothing convenient. We just go by what the prophet and the Imams told us. Simple. The fact that you don't like it or that you don't understand it or you don't whatever is meaningless. We Muslims testify to the truthfulness of the prophets and the Imams. You are nothing in front of the prophets and the Imams.

Having got that out of the way, here are some proofs:
1. Quran testifies that Jesus is alive. it says that people are in error if they believe that he was crucified. He was not. So Jesus is alive. There is no news which has reached us of his death. So he will return. And the prophets and the Imams corroborated this.

2. Quran tell us the story of Abraham who wanted to see how people will be brought back to life. Allah ordered him to sacrifice 4 birds, cut them into pieces and burn them and scatter the ashes and then call out to them. The birds came back to life. So Allah who can bring birds back to life can bring back a prophet who is still alive.

3. Quran tells us the story of the people of the cave (Kahf) in the chapter of Kahf who slept for 309 years and were awakened back to life and then they went to sleep again. Imams told us that the 7 people of the cave will come back to life and assist the Mahdi in establishing justice and equality in this world. If Allah can keep people alive for so long in an state of sleep without any nutrition, then Allah can keep a prophet alive and bring him back to life.

4. Quran tells the story of Uzair - the prophet who passed by a town and saw that the inhabitants were destroyed by the punishment of Allah. Uzair wondered how people would be brought back to life. Allah caused him and his donkey to die and brought them back to life after 100 years. Allah ordered him to look at his donkey being formed in front of his eyes and his food which had not spoiled for a period of 100 years.

These are some proofs which are at the top of my mind. there are several other instances which are in traditions. So for a prophet to come back is no big deal. Quran reminds us at several places that Allah has power over all things. And for Allah, it is nothing, he says "Be and it is!"

So no big deal really.

I am not here to win or lose. Disappointed that you chose to see it that way.

LordOfGoblins

You are getting the issue confused my friend. I ASKED FOR AN INSTANCE OF A RETURN OF A PROPHET.
I did not ask for stories of people being brought back to life.
They are not teh same thing and they never will be.
Lazerus was brought back to life. This is NOT the same as a return of a prophet talked about in the holy books.
THe holy books are full of stories of Jesus bringing things back from the dead. THIS is not the same as return.
Return is when a prophet is PREDICTED to come.
So I wanted an instance where one such Prophet has died and then the prophet who was predicted to return, returned to fulfil a divine mission.
And that return was 'the same physical person'....
You saying Allah can say Be and it is, is a totally useless argument.
I can use that to support the claims of the Bahai faith. Allah wanted Baha'u'llah to be the return of Jesus so he said "BE!" and IT WAS!!
what a way to support your position!

LordOfGoblins

No.
I just want to streamline the discussion because I am aware of the tactic of convolution and bringing in semi-related information to distract from the core issue.
Now we can bring in all kinds of quotes and blow things up enough to have enough information to assess and debate about for the rest of the year. But really I dont have time for that. So I am streamlining it to one significant point. Once we are done with that we can move onto your next 'topics' that you feel support your position...
One thing at a time..

imranshaykh

Dear Lord of Goblins:

You can claim anything! That is your prerogative. You are ignoring the point that the traditions say that Jesus will return. You asked for examples. I gave them to you. You can choose to ignore them.

The fact is that traditions say that Jesus will return in person. Whether that has happened in the past and whether a example so specific as you request is available or not is of no consequence.

If you think Allah wanted Bahaullah to return as Jesus, cool. Lets see a tradition or narration for the same. Then we can talk. Just because someone has some crackpot idea is no proof for Muslims. In all my threads, Bahais are unable to bring any traditional proofs for anything.

imranshaykh

Jesus is alive, not dead. And is predicted to return as the same physical person. The example of Uzair is closest to this. Where Allah caused Uzair to die and then brought him back to life to live after 100 years.

In any case, please lets come back to the topic of finality of prophethood. Please furnish one tradition from the prophet or the imams which talks of the coming of a new messenger after the prophet.

LordOfGoblins

Im afraid your explanation is unacceptable.
Resurrection is not the same thing as return. Your interpretation of the story of Uzair dying then being brought back to life being physical is no different to any other interpretation of a physical vs a spiritual resurrection. We can debate whether resurrection is a physical or spiritual phenomina that is a separate issue and one that Christians would also adhere to being a literal understanding.
But you see those events are nothing more than events or occurances of resurrections. They do not describe fortold returns. Returns are when a prophet actually sets conditions and prophesises his coming to fulfil a further divine mission. People use the sets of prophicies surrounding the return to help them recognise the coming of the new prophet or individual.
Here is an example of return.

13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

(King James Bible, Mark)

Here is another example..

I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth,
nor shall I be the last.
In due time another Buddha will arise in the world,
a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One,
endowed with wisdom in conduct,
auspicious, knowing the universe,
an incomparable leader of men,
a master of angels and mortals.

Do you want more examples. You are confusing return with resurrection..

LordOfGoblins

1. If Jesus is alive then why are you using examples of 'resurrection' to prove your point?

2. Your logic is as follows.
God said in his holy book that a Condor will come down and land on my roof tomorrow (Jesus). God did not Say that a bird will come down and land on my roof tomorrow (a messenger).
Because God did not say a bird will fly down and land on my roof tomorrow, therefore it wont happen...

InvestigateTruth

It seems to me that you tend to rely too much on the traditions, and you interprete them literally.
The problem with Traditions is that there is inaccuracies in them, and many of them are not Authentic. This causes confusion, and between the Moslems there is no agreement which traditions are correct.
I have already given the clear verse of Quran which states that Messengers shall come (Quran 7:35)
I have already given the Hadith that Mahdi comes with "New Laws"

Yes, there is a hadith that when Mahdi comes, His Book apear as a New Book.
And there is another Hadith that Mahdi reveals a New Book. It seems you are confusing the two Hadithes.

The Religion can be divided into Two Parts. The Spiritual Truths, and The Laws (shariah)
The reason that His Book appears to be a New Book is that, the spiritual Truths of Quran are so misinterpreted, distorted and forgotten, that when He reveals the same Spiritual Truth, it appreas a new Book.
But that does not mean, He does not reveal New Book with New Laws.

There are Hadithes that says Mahdi rules 5, 7 or 8 years. Now you are saying Imam Sadiq said, Mahdi will live a long life.
If Imam Sadiq said Mahdi lives a long life, why He only rules 5, 7 or 8 years?


Anyways, in general the traditions are not an infallible and accurate source to rely on. Many of these traditions also may have figurative meanings. For example the long life of Mahdi,could mean He will be in the Heart of Believers for a long time.

In the stories of the previous people which is narrated in Quran, those people also failed to recognize the New Revelation, due to their stablished traditions which was passed through their forefathers:

"O Salih, our hopes were fixed on thee until now; forbiddest thou us to worship that which our fathers worshipped? Truly we misdoubt that whereunto thou callest us as suspicious." Qur’án 11:61, 62


One form of worship according to Imam Sadiq is obeying the religious leaders as God.

The Holy Prophet prophecised that His People will follow the same path as people before them:




Then, the Quran says, If you turn back, God will change you with another people:


Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) "those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?
- Sahih Muslim, Hadith 6448


And the Quran already said, if the Muslems turn back, He will replace you with another people:


"Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you." 47:38


Please note that, the Quran contains Spiritual Truths. The spiritual Truths are free from time and place. They can be taken out of context and be refered to anywhere else as Truth. They are independent of the traditions behind them.(It seems this is what you mostly are missing)

imranshaykh

That my explanation is unacceptable to you is fine. You have no answer to the fact that traditions state that there will be a physical return. Period. There is no concept of a spiritual return of Jesus. In any case, Islam believes that Jesus is alive. Bahais have no counter to this point unless that they can establish that Jesus died and he has returned in a "spiritual" form. Besides this too was not foretold by the prophets or the Imams.

The examples I have quoted are sufficient to establish that Allah can keep someone alive for long and as and when He wishes, He can send him back in physical form. There is no example of "spiritual" return of anything nor any tradition to that effect.

I will say this again. There are no traditions from the prophets or the Imams which the Bahais are able bring forth to establish the coming of any new prophet or messenger. Not even one. This entire discussion and everyone's time can be saved significantly if Bahais can bring one tradition.

Our prophets and Imams foretold everything including the coming of 30 impostors. If you want to see the list, visit my site.

imranshaykh

It seems to me that you tend to rely too much on the traditions, and you interprete them literally.

YOU HAVE NOT BROUGHT A SINGLE TRADITION AND YOU HAVE MADE UP YOUR MIND OF HOW I INTERPRET THEM. BAHAIS ARE MISINTERPRETING THE QURAN WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE LANGUAGE, STYLE AND CONTEXT OF THE QURAN. I HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE CONTEXT WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FURNISHED SO FAR.

The problem with Traditions is that there is inaccuracies in them, and many of them are not Authentic. This causes confusion, and between the Moslems there is no agreement which traditions are correct.

FIRST BRING THE TRADITIONS, THEN WE CAN DISCUSS ON WHICH ARE ACCURATE OR INACCURATE. YOU HAVE FAILED TO BRING EVEN ONE SO FAR FROM THE PROPHETS OR THE IMAMS IN WHICH THEY HAVE PROPHESIED THE COMING OF NAY NEW PROPHET OR MESSENGER. ALL THE TRADITIONS AND NARRATIONS ARE TO THE CONTRARY.

I have already given the clear verse of Quran which states that Messengers shall come (Quran 7:35)

AND THE CONTEXT OF THIS VERSE IS THAT IT ADDRESSES MANKIND. NOT MUSLIMS IN PARTICULAR. WHICH IS FINE BECAUSE MUSLIMS ANYWAYS BELIEVE THAT MESSENGERS WILL COME. WE BELIEVE IN 313 MESSENGERS OUT OF 124,000 PROPHETS. SO THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION IN QURAN. BUT IN THE SAME QURAN, ALLAH SAYS THAT MOHAMMED IS THE SEAL OF THE PROPHETS, WHICH AUTOMATICALLY MEANS THAT HE IS THE SEAL OF THE MESSENGERS.

I have already given the Hadith that Mahdi comes with "New Laws"

I SEEM TO HAVE MISSED IT. PLEASE RESEND ALONG WITH THE REFERENCE. PLEASE DON'T SEND THE TRADITIONS WITHOUT REFERENCE. NO HEARSAY PLEASE.

Yes, there is a hadith that when Mahdi comes, His Book apear as a New Book.
And there is another Hadith that Mahdi reveals a New Book. It seems you are confusing the two Hadithes.

PLEASE QUOTE WITH REFERENCE. IN ANY CASE, HIS BOOK APPEARING AS A NEW BOOK IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN A NEW BOOK. BUT LEAVE THAT ASIDE. PUT THE TRADITION AND THE REFERENCE.

The Religion can be divided into Two Parts. The Spiritual Truths, and The Laws (shariah)
The reason that His Book appears to be a New Book is that, the spiritual Truths of Quran are so misinterpreted, distorted and forgotten, that when He reveals the same Spiritual Truth, it appreas a new Book.
But that does not mean, He does not reveal New Book with New Laws.

READ COMMENT ABOVE.

There are Hadithes that says Mahdi rules 5, 7 or 8 years. Now you are saying Imam Sadiq said, Mahdi will live a long life.
If Imam Sadiq said Mahdi lives a long life, why He only rules 5, 7 or 8 years?

YOU ARE WOEFULLY IGNORANT OF BAHAI HISTORY. READ THE HISTORY OF THE BAB. AT THE TIME WHEN THE BAB MADE THE CLAIM, ISLAM WAS UNDER SHIITE RULE. 11 IMAMS HAD PASSED AND THE COMMUNITY WAS WAITING AND STILL IS FOR THE 12TH IMAM WHO WAS BORN AS PER SHIITE HISTORY INI 255 AH. THE BAB WHICH MEANS GATE, CLAIMED TO BE THE GATE TO THE 12TH IMAM. READ ABOUT SAYYED KAZIM RASHTY, SHAYKH AHMED AHSAI AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

IF THE MAHDI WAS BORN IN 255 AH AND WE ARE IN 1433, THEN THE IMAM IS MORE THAN 1,100 YEARS OLD. WHICH IS WHAT IMAM SADIQ MEANT. THE RULE OF THE MAHDI WILL START AFTER HIS REAPPEARANCE WHICH AS PER TRADITIONS WILL LAST FOR 7 OR 9 YEARS.

Anyways, in general the traditions are not an infallible and accurate source to rely on. Many of these traditions also may have figurative meanings. For example the long life of Mahdi,could mean He will be in the Heart of Believers for a long time.

CONJECTURE. WHEN IMAM SADIQ SAYS THAT LONG LIFE OF THE MAHDI IS LIKE NOAH WHO PHYSICALLY LIVED FOR 2,500 YEARS, THEN WE WILL BELIEVE THAT HE WILL HAVE A LONG LIFE.

In the stories of the previous people which is narrated in Quran, those people also failed to recognize the New Revelation, due to their stablished traditions which was passed through their forefathers:

"O Salih, our hopes were fixed on thee until now; forbiddest thou us to worship that which our fathers worshipped? Truly we misdoubt that whereunto thou callest us as suspicious." Qur’án 11:61, 62

THIS IS NOT NEW. I CAN GIVE YOU ANOTHER 2 VERSES ON THIS ACCOUNT. BUT THIS IS IRRELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION. PEOPLE WILL FOLLOW CULTURE. WE FOLLOW THE WORDS OF THE PROPHETS AND NOT OF OUR FOREFATHERS.

One form of worship according to Imam Sadiq is obeying the religious leaders as God.

REFERENCE PLEASE.

The Holy Prophet prophecised that His People will follow the same path as people before them:

REFERENCE PLEASE


Then, the Quran says, If you turn back, God will change you with another people:


Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) "those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)?
- Sahih Muslim, Hadith 6448


And the Quran already said, if the Muslems turn back, He will replace you with another people:


"Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you." 47:38


AGAIN VERSES ARE QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT. I DON'T KNOW WHY THESE ARE HERE. THE POINT IS THAT BAHAIS SHOULD BRING ONE TRADITION WHICH THE PROPHET OR ANY IMAM SAID THAT THERE WILL BE SOMEONE - A PROPHET OR MESSENGER TO FOLLOW HIM. BAHAIS ARE UNABLE TO BRING ANY TRADITION.

Please note that, the Quran contains Spiritual Truths. The spiritual Truths are free from time and place. They can be taken out of context and be refered to anywhere else as Truth. They are independent of the traditions behind them.(It seems this is what you mostly are missing)

CONJECTURE. BRING TRADITION TO ESTABLISH THIS.

AGAIN, BAHAIS SHOULD BRING ONE TRADITION TO ESTABLISH WHETHER ANY NEW PROPHET WILL COME. THE HOLY PROPHET WAS CRYSTAL CLEAR ON EVERYTHING IN ISLAM. WE PRAY, EAT, DRINK, CLOTHE EVERYTHING ON THE BASIS OF WHAT THE PROPHET TOLD US. WHY WOULD WE NOT FOLLOW THE PROPHET IF HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US OF A NEW PROPHET? WE DONT FOLLOW BAHAIS PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY DONT FOLLOW THE PROPHET. OR ELSE, BRING ONE TRADITION PLEASE.

REGARDING THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MADHI, BEFIRE RAISING ANY POINT, PLEASE READ SECTION ON BAB ON The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam. THEN WE CAN DISCUSS. IT WILL SAVE ME THE TIME OF BRINGING POINTS AGAIN AND AGAIN.

imranshaykh

God can say this and if there is any confusion we will refer to the prophet upon whom the revelation was made. Simple. We do not rely upon our wisdom. So if the prophet says that this means a bird, then we will accept it. If the prophet says that this means another messenger, then we will accept it.

The Holy Quran says: "O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

You see, if there is any dispute then we refer it to Allah and His prophet. That is why what the prophet says is important. I hope my friend Investigate Truth is also reading this.

InvestigateTruth

Again, you ignored the point that the traditions are not necessarily Authentic.
Also, you ignore when Quran says no one knows its interpretation except God and the ones who are firm in knowlege.

Obviously Baha'u'llah and The Bab knew the correct interpretation of Quran as they recieved the knowledge from God, but when you use the understanding of Islam Religious Leaders and Mullahs to interprete the Quran, clearly they mislead others.

This was already prophecized. I quote from Baha'u'llah in Book of Iqan:

"In the “Aválím,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “A Youth from Baní-Háshim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law;” then follow these words: “Most of His enemies will be the divines.” In another passage, it is related of Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, that he spoke the following: “There shall appear a Youth from Baní-Háshim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him.” How well have they followed the directions of the Imáms of the Faith and Lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: “Were ye to hear that a Youth from Baní-Háshim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and Divine Book, and to new and Divine laws, hasten unto Him,” yet have they all declared that Lord of being an infidel, and pronounced Him a heretic. They hastened not unto that Háshimite Light, that divine Manifestation, except with drawn swords, and hearts filled with malice. Moreover, observe how explicitly the enmity of the divines hath been mentioned in the books. Notwithstanding all these evident and significant traditions, all these unmistakable and undisputed allusions, the people have rejected the immaculate Essence of knowledge and of holy utterance, and have turned unto the exponents of rebellion and error. Despite these recorded traditions and revealed utterances, they speak only that which is prompted by their own selfish desires."


So, It seems to me that the early Moslems did not interprete the "Seal of Prophets" to mean, no other Prophet for ever, but, to mean, there won't be any Nabi untill the Mahdi.

Khatam meaning honour, high status and not last
Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states

"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him."

Also, it is recorded that 'Khatamul Auliya means 'Seal of the believers - a title bestowed upon Ali by Muhammad. Which does not mean Ali was the final believer.

So, it seems to me that the idea that after Muhammad, there is no Messenger forever must have become more popular in recent centuries, based on interpretation of "Seal of Prophets" and other Hadithes by religious leaders. I think this makes sense specially, when it would be very appealing to the avarage Moslem to believe his / her religion is the last one.


It really make sense to me, what happend to Moslems is they obeyed their scholars and put their trust in their hand, instead of God.
Same as people of the past:


"They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." Quran 9:31


Tafseer Quran 9:31:



Abu Basir asked Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (a.s.) the interpretation of the above verse (Surah Tawbah 9:31). Imam said, “Know that! By Allah they never did ask the people to worship them because if they had said so, the people would not have obeyed. But they asked them to consider prohibited things permissible for their sake and to consider the permissible things prohibited. Thus they worshipped them thoughtlessly.”

Qalbe Saleem, Immaculate Conscience


Another Tafseer:
In the book ‘Majmua Albayaan’ it is narrated that when this verse was revealed ....Then Adi ibne Hatim said O Rasool Allah (SW) we never used to worship them? Rasool (SW) replied, ‘’Didn’t they use to call anything as Halal or Haram, as per their wishes and you used to accept all their sayings”, then he said yes indeed this used to happen. Rasool (SW) replied “This is what Ibadat (worship) is.

http://www.akhbari.org/rejection.htm

InvestigateTruth

You ignore that Quran says some of its verses are Figurative.
The Traditions of Muhammad also confirms Quran has several layers of Meaning which are Hidden.

InvestigateTruth

Again you ignore all those traditions confirming that The Mahdi would have the Characteristics of Prophets:

I quote from Iqan:

"How strange! Notwithstanding these explicit and manifest references these people have shunned the Truth. For instance, mention of the sorrows, the imprisonment and afflictions inflicted upon that Essence of divine virtue hath been made in the former traditions. In the “Bihár” it is recorded: “In our Qá’im there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muḥammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muḥammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qur’án.” Notwithstanding such a conclusive tradition, which in such unmistakable language hath foreshadowed the happenings of the present day, none hath been found to heed its prophecy, and methinks none will do so in the future, except him whom thy Lord willeth. “God indeed shall make whom He will to hearken, but We shall not make those who are in their graves to hearken.”"

InvestigateTruth

Baha'i Faith came for this new Age, to bring teachings which will unite All people. Islam's law came for the previous Age.

As Quran says: "To each age its Book"

Even many Modern Moslems agree that most of the Islamic Laws are not suitable for this Age. Those laws such as "cutting hand of thief", "two women are equal to one man", "Unbelievers are unclean", "allowing upto 4 wives", etc...


He did, and I have posted many of these traditions and verses in this thread.
But there is always the "Test" from God.
Now, your own logic does not even work with justifying Muhammad. Can you find anything in the Bible or Christian Traditions that talks about Muhammad?

Pace9

"In the afternoon the Master spoke about the oneness of the fundamental truths of the religions of God and the vain imaginings and beliefs of various peoples, saying:


The foundation of all religions is one and the aim of all creeds of the world is also one. All are believers in the oneness of God. All believe that a mediator between the Creator and the creatures is needed. The question is that to the Jews Moses is the last, to the Christians it is Christ, to the Muslims it is Muhammad and to the Parsis it is Zoroaster. But their differences are only those of names.

If these names are set aside, it is evident that their aim is one. Every divine religious law was complete for its time. The renewal of the laws of God and the appearance of the Manifestations of the bounties of the Lord in each cycle are necessary. Thus the people who seek truth and inner meanings can discover the divine mysteries and become aware of the secrets of the Books of God. They know God to be the Supreme, His bounties infinite and the doors of His mercy unbarred. They believe in all the Prophets and affirm 'No difference do we make between any of them' [Qur'án 2:130]. But those who adhere to outer meanings only, who worship outer form, cling to imitations and follow their superstitions. They use the allegories set forth in the verses of God to deny the Cause of the Lord of Signs. Therefore, offer thanks to God that you have attained unto reality, have responded affirmatively to the Call of God, have given up dogmatic imitations and have become cognizant of the mystery of oneness. Offer thanks to God. Be grateful to your Lord."


Mahmud's Diary
September 7, 1912
Montreal

LoverofGlory

imranshaykh my friend,

Your knowledge of Qu'ranic verses is impressive to say the least, as is your familiarity with the traditions of the Imams. I feel that my Baha'i brothers and sisters have made enough references to the Holy Qu'ran, and so I will not follow suit, but rather, appeal to you using another of God's Holy Books- the Holy Gospels.

Now you have a rather constant theme running through your posts- that you would like the words of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, or that of the Infallible Imams to support "our" claims.

Previously, you wrote these words on the forum:
"We do not believe in some nonsense of a spiritual return."

Rather than get involved in a lengthy and tedious debate that will end fruitlessly, I will soon relate to you the words of His Holiness Christ, regarding the concept of "return".

As a scholar of your eminence, you must be familiar with the Jewish tradition prevailing at the time of the Christ, that before the coming of the Messiah it was necessary for Elijah to return. They derived this tradition from God's utterance in the Book of Malachi:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord" -Malachi 4:1-5

Now, let us turn to the Gospels for further elucidation:

"10 The disciples asked him, 'Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?'

11 Jesus replied, 'To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.' 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."

See how clearly the Christ explains the meaning of this tradition which had been for so long interpreted as a promise for the LITERAL return of Elijah. Was the Baptist the physical form of Elijah? Certainly not. Did the Baptist come out of the sky? Obviously not, else the disciples would not have needed an explanation from the Lord Christ. And finally, was the Baptist a reincarnation of the soul of Elijah into the body of John the Baptist? Let us look at what the Holy Gospel tells us, from the words of the Baptist himself:

"So they asked him, 'What are you then? Are you Elijah?' And he said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" -John 1:21

Therefore, in what sense was the Baptist the return of the Prophet Elijah? Again, let us look to the Holy Gospel for answers:

"13 But the angel said to him: 'Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.'"
Luke 1:13-17

Observe how clearly, and how lucidly the Holy Gospels establish the principle of "spiritual" return. Furthermore, I would direct your eminence to another often quoted prophecy regarding the return of Christ:

"13 and among the lampstands was someone 'like a son of man,' dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: 'Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.'"

Now reflect with justice, how could this possibly be a prophecy that is to be interpreted literally? Is it possible for a man to hold seven stars in His right hand? Such a creature would not even fit on the earth, nay, He would be so large that the galaxy might not even hold His form! Likewise, consider, could a man with eyes of fire, a sword coming from His mouth, and feet of bronze attract faithful followers? No! ALL would run from such a being in terror, He would be alone and friendless on account of His terrifying appearance. Only a spiritual interpretation is possible here. As His Holiness Baha'u'llah explains in "Gems of Divine Mysteries" the feet of bronze are an allusion to the firmness of the Promised Christ, despite the attempts of all of His enemies to silence Him, He will, alone and unaided remain steadfast in His cause, and defeat them all. The eyes of fire are an allusion to the penetrating vision of Lord Baha'u'llah, how His eyes burn away all the veils between Himself and the Lord, and how His teachings burn these same veils away for His followers.

My friend, I hope and I pray that one day you will set aside your own preconceived notions, set aside the cage of imitation, and cease creating explanations to deny the truth that is so clearly manifested before you, as a face like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Allah'u'Abha!

LordOfGoblins

Jesus was a messenger. I was just showing how your logic makes no sense. It is illogical to say a messenger wont come in one instance and then say that Jesus will return in another instance. The analogy I used with birds was perhaps confusing to you...

LordOfGoblins

My friend it seems you are struggling to understand the conversation we are having. The fact that you can recount a story of a physical resurrection is really of no importance at all. You see. The story only proves it self as a physical story if one chooses to interpret it as such. So your argument is like saying 'because my interpretation of this story is physical therefore it is physical'.
You see this is why I wanted an example of a real return of a prophet in history that was physical. Not a story from the Quran that could equally be metephorical or physical according to how one chooses to interpret it.
I feel as if you are really struggling to understand the conversation here.
It is really not enough to just take something from the Quran and use it as a 'proof' just because you think it is a proof. You see that is 'interpretation'. Your intereptation of that story is that it is physical. My interpretation is that it is not physical.
So the only way to proove your point would be to find a real example of a prophet who fortold his return and the return ended up being physical just like the people expected his coming to be.
But you have failed to give one such example.
That is why I say your explanation has no power to it.
Your 'proof' is just interpretation.

There IS examples of Spiritual return in history. BUT NONE of established physical returns. If you want these examples Ill provide them to you. But you have Shown NO physical returns whatsoever aside from stories of resurrections that can be interpreted as physical or spiritual depending on ones religious background..

tonyfish58

imranshaykh - From what I read above you have just quoted the current thoughts about what or how True Religion is to be Revealed. Is that not for God to decide? Refer to the Koran 16:43 - It is translated as such - "Ask ye, therefore, of them that have the custody of the Scriptures, if ye know it not."

The answers to all your questions/Statements are contained within this book

The Kitáb-i-Íqán

Link to book - http://bahaiforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=32674

It is a great read

I wish you well

Regards Tony

imranshaykh

Dear Friend,

there is no question of struggle of any kind! The issue here is whether Jesus will return in physical form as Jesus or in spiritual form, in Bahaullah, for example.

Before placing any new argument, I would like to summarize.

My argument is that:
1. Jesus is alive. Quran and traditions testify to that. If Bahais believe otherwise then they should bring some proof that Jesus is dead.

2. Traditions are clear - in letter - that Jesus, the son of Mary (Arabic: Isa Ibn Maryam) will return. Not that he will return in the form of some other person.

3. The examples I gave you are of animals, humans, including prophets who Allah brought back to life for a purpose. If Allah can bring something back to life, then He can return a prophet who is living.

4. There is no concept of spiritual return of anything in Islam. It has not been in Islam nor in any of the previous revelations of Allah. if the Bahais believe otherwise, then they should bring some proof from the prophets or his successors for the same.

5. Traditions are clear on the role of Jesus after his advent. Christianity will come to an end, the cross will be broken etc. And all of this is to happen in the lifetime of Jesus before Jesus dies. Yes Jesus will die as well. Bahaullah did not fulfill any of these prophecies. Just for my knowledge I would like to see the claim of Bahaullab in his writings that he was the spiritual return of Christ.

6. Traditions are clear that Jesus will recite prayers behind the Mahdi. This prophecy has not been fulfilled as yet. This will be fulfilled on the return of the Mahdi which will then be followed by the advent of Jesus from the 4th heaven.

7. Bahais believe in spiritual return and claim to have examples for these. Please provide examples outside of the Bahai Faith and not of Bab being the spiritual return of the Mahdi because again traditions contradict that.

Traditions are important because they take out the ambiguity in the verses of the Quran which may be interpreted in any fashion. Traditions exist for this purpose only because they came as clarifications to the verses. Hence whatever Bahais claim, they should provide the narrations of the Prophet and the Imams for their claims otherwise their claim has no value for Muslims.

All the interpretations I have provided are that of the prophet and the Imams. There is no interpretation of my own. Personal interpretations have no role to play in Islam.

Hope my stand is clear.

imranshaykh

No confusion. Traditions and narrations of the prophets and the Imams are clear that Jesus son of Mary will come. And what he will do after he comes. There is no confusion. Not for me at least. If you have any proof otherwise, please furnish.

imranshaykh

Dear Lover of God. I regret that it is difficult for me to comment on this. Islam does not believe in the authenticity of the Bible in present day time, nor of the books of the Jews. Whatever we believe about the previous religions, we know from what the prophet and the Imams told us. Nothing more. Nothing less.

imranshaykh

MY RESPONSE: agree. That is why we have traditions. And that is why i have asking you repeatedly for a tradition in which the prophet or the imams have said that a new prophet will come. Which you have not provided so far.

imranshaykh

It is your interpretation that the Islamic laws are not suitable for this age. Islam does not believe so. The prophet and the Imams told us that Islam is till the Day of Judgement.

I don't need anything in the Bible and the testament which justifies the Prophet. Read the history of Islam. There are several debates which the Holy Prophet and the Imams had with Christians and Jews from their own books which are sufficient proof for us.

The purpose of this thread is to establish whether a new prophet or messenger will come. You have not provided any tradition to this effect so far. You keep on getting into the discussion about the Mahdi whereas this topic has nothing to do with prophethood and messengership. The topic of the Mahdi is about Imamate or successorship of the prophet.

So lets come back to the one single tradition about whether a new prophet or messenger will come. I have been liberal in my argument by allowing you to bring one tradition from either the prophet or from any of the 12 Imams which succeeded him. But yet, you have been unable to do so.

imranshaykh

My response below:



I have not ignored the point. We dont need bahais to tell us about traditions. Read all my thread. I told you bring one tradition in which the prophet or the imams spoke of a person to come. We can subsequently decode the tradition to see whether it is reliable or not. But you have not provided a single tradition.

Look at the verse which you have quoted. Who will tell us who are those who are "firmly rooted in knowledge". What is the meaning of firmly rooted in knowledge. Which knowledge is being referred to? Traditions exist to explain all of this. And everything is available in traditions. But you dont seem to shy away from traditions because they reject the bahai faith.

Look at my earlier posts. I have asked for references, which you have ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by investigatetruth Obviously baha'u'llah and the bab knew the correct interpretation of quran as they recieved the knowledge from god, but when you use the understanding of islam religious leaders and mullahs to interprete the quran, clearly they mislead others.

Unlikely. They knew. Bab was unable to understand basic maths and aqdas is full of arabic mistakes.

I disagree with your allegation. I have never quoted any scholar. All my arguments are from the prophet and the imams. Please rpove to me that i have used the interpretation of any scholar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by investigatetruth This was already prophecized. I quote from baha'u'llah in book of iqan: "in the “aválím,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “a youth from baní-háshim shall be made manifest, who will reveal a new book and promulgate a new law;” then follow these words: “most of his enemies will be the divines.” in another passage, it is related of ?ádiq, son of mu?ammad, that he spoke the following: “there shall appear a youth from baní-háshim, who will bid the people plight fealty unto him. His book will be a new book, unto which he shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is his revelation unto the arab. If ye hear about him, hasten unto him.” how well have they followed the directions of the imáms of the faith and lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: “were ye to hear that a youth from baní-háshim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and divine book, and to new and divine laws, hasten unto him,” yet have they all declared that lord of being an infidel, and pronounced him a heretic. They hastened not unto that háshimite light, that divine manifestation, except with drawn swords, and hearts filled with malice. Moreover, observe how explicitly the enmity of the divines hath been mentioned in the books. Notwithstanding all these evident and significant traditions, all these unmistakable and undisputed allusions, the people have rejected the immaculate essence of knowledge and of holy utterance, and have turned unto the exponents of rebellion and error. Despite these recorded traditions and revealed utterances, they speak only that which is prompted by their own selfish desires."

i have read this several times in the past.please show me this book of avalim which bahaullah claims is a very famous book. Then show me the page number and then we can talk. I bet that bahais cannot even tell me whether this book is in arabic or persian and who the author is.

please bring the reference. Please see my site. Every quotation has a reference. Please respect that in an argument.

this is false. Please show me where ali is called khatamul auliya.

Conjecture. Rejected.

Conjecture. Rejected. we place our trust only in the hands of the prophet and his successors

read the tafseer of this verse. It refers to the jews. Allah condemned the jews because they rejected the argument of the holy prophet of islam.

this refers to the jews.

Refers to jews.

please bring one tradition which establishes that after the holy prophet of islam there will be another messenger or prophet.

imranshaykh

Bahaullah could not obviously translate. the tradition says the GHAYBAT of YUSUF (joseph). Ghaybat is occultation and not dissimulation. Dissimulation is TAQAIYYAH....

In any case, Bahaullah should have explained how these characteristics are found in the Bab. Bahaullah should also have referred to other traditions in which similarities with other prophets are outlined.

InvestigateTruth

Yes, But as you are very well aware we believe the day of Judgement is passed. The proofs are in the Book of Iqan.
The coming of the new revelation was a mystery of God, and was in the Figurative verses of Quran.
The Imams and Muhammad knew that, but they were not allowed to say.
The meaning of the Day of Resurrection was supposed to be revealed in its own time.
The duration of the Ummah of Muhammad was 1000 years according to Hadithes and Quran. According to other Hadithes at the End of the time of Ummah and on the Day of Resurrection Mahdi was supposed to come.
And yes, it happend, like it or not!

According to your argument, there must have been mention of the coming of a new messenger in the previous scriptures.
How is it that even you cannot find anything about Muhammad in Christian traditions, you still accepted it?
You need to make this clear!.
If you judge fairly, there are alot more explicit mention of the coming of another revelation in the Islamic Traditions, than any other previous revelations.


That's your interpretation. The Jews also believed the concept of Messiah is not another revelation.
As I quoted the Hadith before, Moslems follow exactly the same path as Jews.
You failed to recognize your own promised One.


I thought you are knowledgable about Islamic Hadithes. How is that you cannot find all these traditions in any Books? All you need to do is a good search.

InvestigateTruth

So, when Yusuf was in prison, and was not among His people, that is not considered Ghaybat (Occultation)??
Can you show from the Quran, Joseph was in occaltation, or in prison?
Seems like you care more about your traditions than Quran.

InvestigateTruth

Do you have any proofs?
Do you have any proofs?
Just like those who found hundereds of mistakes in Quran?
What is the difference between you and them?

InvestigateTruth

"The Apostle of God said: `There will come a time for my people when there will remain nothing of the Qur'an except its outward form and nothing of Islam except its name and they will call themselves by this name even though they are the people furthest from it. The mosques will be full of people but they will be empty of right guidance. The religious leaders (Fuqaha) of that day will be the most evil religious leaders under the heavens; sedition and dissension will go out from them and to them will it return.'"
- Ibn Babuya, Thawab ul-A'mal
- Also, in Al-Bihar, by Al-Majlisi, Vol 13, Page 155
- Also, in Kanz Al-amal #766






The fact that you cannot prove the Quran is the last revelation is enough to say, there is no reason another revelation after Quran cannot come. That is up to God!

In another hadith Abu Khadija relates from Imam Sadiq, who said:
When the Qa'im rises he will come with a new commission, just as the Prophet in the beginning of Islam called the people to a new commission.[28]

In still another hadith Imam Sadiq says:
When the Qa'im emerges he will come with a new commission, a new book, a new conduct and a new judgement, which will be strenuous for the Arabs. His work is nothing but to fight, and no one [among the disbelievers] will be spared. He will not be afraid of any blame in the execution of his duty. [29]

Al-Imam al-Mahdi, The Just Leader of Humanity

InvestigateTruth

It is clear that KhatAm is a device used to seal. So, Muhammad obviously is not a device to seal. So, this verse is not to be taken literally. "Seal" in the verse is a symbol. It is a Mutishabihat verse. Thus, as Quran says, No one knows the meaning of Mutishabihat verses except God and His chosen ones who are given the knowledge.

You cannot claim you know for sure its meaning!!!



USE OF THE WORD KHATAM:

In one of his sayings Muhammad calls his uncle, Hadhrat Abbas, Khatamul Muhajireen (see Kanzul Ommal, Vol. VI, p. 178)( [[3]]). But it does not mean that Abbas was the last Muhajir (refugee) of the whole Muslim world.


Similarly, Hadhrat Ali is called Khatamul Auliya (see Tafsir Safi under the Quranic verse 33:41). Ibn Khaldun says this phrase is understood to mean that Ali was a perfect saint and not the last (see Muqaddama, Vol. II pp. 165-167).


An Arab poet, Hasan bin Wahab, called Abu Tamam (the compiler of Himasa) Khatamush-Shu'ara (see Wafiyatul A'ayan Li Ibn Khallikan, Vol. I, p. 123, Cairo). Obviously Abu Tamam was not the last poet. The word Khatam, therefore, used in such phrases means the best and not the last.




Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;
"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him." (Takmilah Majma'ul Bihaar, p. 85)


Moreover, Baha'u'llah also explained the meaning of the seal to have another interpretation as well.

LordOfGoblins

i dont think interpretation can be accepted as proof. And no sensible person who has studied religion should accept it as proof. IT was the jewish priests who failed to recognise Jesus because they used interpretation as proof that he was false. Now I was trying to engage you in a discussion outside interpretation where there is no room for confusion but you dont want to move outside interpretation. Therefore you can keep saying 'Traditions describe JEsus returning physically' and I can keep saying 'those things are spiritual' and there is no quick way to proove either way unless you are willing to move outside interpration and look at REAL events in history of WHAT REALLY happened surrounding the return of fortold prophets.
In terms of who is right here. I have the statistics on my side in the fact that there are no recorded physical returns of prophets in history...
But you just ignore this fact.

LordOfGoblins

Imranshayk.
You can say that it is my decision what I accept as proof or not.
But saying 'Allah can do anything' Is perhaps one of the poorest arguments for a religious position that I have heard.
Just imagine you and a Christian debating about whether Muhammad is a true prophet and your argument is 'Allah can do anything, Muhammad is true!!'
The Christian responds. 'Allah can do anything, Muhammad is false!!'
It is really the most childish non consequential argument from someone who is supposedly versed in religious knowledge that a person can give..

imranshaykh

I don't believe that saying Allah can do anything is a poor argument at all especially when Allah Himself makes this claim several times in the Quran. What is important is what Allah will do. We refer back to traditions of the Prophets and the Imams to establish that.

We do not have discussions with members of any Faith on the basis that Allah can do anything. We offer proofs - from Quran and traditions and history.

Since I am returning to this forum after almost a week, I will encapsulate the discussion here. Regarding the advent of Jesus, we believe:

1. Jesus is alive. If not, Bahais should provide proof where he is.

2. Traditions care clear that Jesus, the son of Mary (in any many words) will return. Not someone in spiritual garb.

3. Traditions are clear on the role of Jesus on his return. Bahaullah, who Bahais claim, as the "return" of Jesus fulfilled none, repeat none of these prophecies. If you differ from this view, please quote the tradition and show how Bahaullah fulfilled the prophecies of the return of Jesus.

4. Allah offers several proofs in the Quran to show that He can offer a long life to an individual - Noah is an example for that. So Allah can keep Jesus alive for as long as He wants. If you differ from this, please explain why.

5. Allah offers proof that He can bring people back to life in this world. If He can send people back from the dead, then He can send someone back to this world who He has kept alive on the 4th heaven, as traditions tell us. If you differ from this, please explain why.

6. Islam does not believe in the spiritual return of anything - neither Jesus, neither the Mahdi. These are individuals who will return in their own flesh and blood.

You were going to put forward some proof to establish spiritual return of Jesus in Bahaullah. Please do so.

Regards,

imranshaykh

I am surprised (or perhaps, not surprised) that out of probably more than 200 traditions quoted in the book whose reference you provided, you chose to bring up this one tradition just to show that the Mahdi will come with a new revelation.

You probably did not read the other parts of the book which outline:
1. how the Mahdi will have a long life
2. the occultation of the Mahdi, how there are two occultations.
3. The lineage of the Mahdi
4. the name of the Mahdi
5. etc

The reason I can think of is that traditions contradict every thing that the Bahais claim. So they selectively bring up one tradition and highlight it out of context. Or they bring up some traditions which don't have any reference. The last time, you quoted some tradition which Bahaullah brought up in Iqan from the book of Avalim. Where is this book and who is its author? You never replied. The UHJ should inform its members about such references or the Bahai Faith will lose whatever little credibility it enjoys.

As regards the tradition you have brought, Muslims do not deny this tradition. At the time of the advent of the Mahdi, Islam would be in a state of flux. The Quran will not change, but due to the interpretations amongst sects, there would be a state of confusion. In such circumstances, when the Mahdi will come and call people back to Islam, it will appear that he has come with a new book and a new revelation whereas it will not be so. Bahais have latched onto just this tradition to show that Bab was the Mahdi, conveniently forgetting in the process that Bab does not meet any of the criteria which is outlined for the Mahdi.

BTW, the Bab himself says that he is not the Mahdi. Read the book of Sahifae' Adaliyah by the Bab in which the Bab says that the Mahdi is Mohammed IBnil Hasan. Or the Tafseer of Surah Kausar in which Bab says that when he was in Mecca, he saw a person who he thought was the Mahdi! Obviously if the Bab thought someone else was the Mahdi, then he cant be the Mahdi. All these references are on my site. Please log on and see. All of them have the original pages in Arabic and Persian as well.

To conclude, please read the other traditions in the book as well and please desist from taking traditions out of context. Also, please send the reference of Avalim.

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth, I have never personally claimed to know the meaning of anything. I always refer to the Quran and the traditions of the prophet to know the meaning of anything. I dont think that in any of my discussions, I have brought references of scholars or poets (as you have done) to establish my point. Whereas if I were to do that I would be able to offer a lot more in terms of cultural and social proofs for the use of the word Khatam.

I will check the meanings of those books in which you have used the reference of the prophet. I have the original books and will check. As for the words of Ayesha, it is her personal opinion which means nothing. If the prophet had said that, then I would reconsider my position.

The key thing here is not to differ on the multiple meanings of the word Khatam. We all know that it has multiple meanings. It is important to see the context in which it appears in the Quran and what are the traditions saying about it. Please visit my site where I have outlined every verse in which the word Khatam appears and have provided an explanation. Your views on the Quran (which do not have much value for Muslims) are tangentially opposite to what Allah has sought to convey through His prophet (pbuh).

Do visit my site and read the article - Khatam in the Quran.

imranshaykh

As regards the proof that Bab was unable to understand basic maths, please refer to my web site under the section - the Bab - Life and Times in which the article Examination of the Bab at Tabriz outlines my point.

As regards the Arabic mistakes in the Aqdas, are you able to understand Arabic?

rreini

Imranshaykh has asked where Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Christ. One such claim is found in Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah:

XLVII: O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once…

O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. 102 O people of the Bayán! If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Muḥammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires.

LordOfGoblins

I Know he uses it in the Quran. But it doesnt help you in a situation like this.
You are not talking to someone who doubts the abilitites of God and establishing whether God can cause the virgin birth of Jesus.
You really have to come to my level. We are trying to establish a proof either way, not debate over what God can and cant do. As a premise lets understand and assume that we both hold God able to do whatsoever he wishes at any time he wishes. That was never a point in contention!!
We are trying to establish whether return is spiritual or physical.
I will give quotes showing why I believe its spiritual when I get the chance..