BruceDLimber

Does anyone know: How can I set this group to ignore someone?

I don't see any obvious means for doing this.

Thank you!

Bruce

BruceDLimber

Well worth remembering!:

'Abdu'l-Baha said:

"May God confirm the day when a score of ministers of the churches may arise and with bared heads cry at the top of their voices that the Baha'is are misguided. I would like to see that day, for that is the time when the Cause of God will spread. Baha'u'llah has pronounced such as these the couriers of the Cause. They will proclaim from pulpits that the Baha'is are fools, that they are a wicked and unrighteous people, but be ye steadfast and unwavering in the Cause of God. They will spread the message of Baha'u'llah."

--(The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p429)

InvestigateTruth

Please note that, the subject of thread is about if "Seal of Prophets" means the finality of revelation or not. The topic of discussion is not about the proofs of the Baha'i Faith or its History. Those subjects can be discussed in separate threads.

With regards to your website, you need to first establish the validity of the sources and historical events. Some of your sources does not seem to be valid. Then, it is the matter of interpretation of Baha'i Scriptures, as well as recorded sayings and their validity. You need to establish, the validity of your interpretation. We know, according to Baha'u'llah, only Abdulbaha knows their official interpretations.
But again, please note, these would be the topic of other threads.

So, as far as we are concerned with topic of the discussion, it is clear, that according to Islamic Traditions, a new Book and new laws would be revealed by the Mahdi.
As regards to meaning of the "seal" it is fair to say, from the traditions of Islam, as well as the usage of word of "KhatAm" in arabic, it is certain that the word does have other meanings such as “ornament”, “confirming”, but not necessarily "ender" or "Final". The word for “ender” is KhatEm, not KhatAm. The word used in the verse is “KhatAm”


Also, verse 7:35 can be seen as an explicit verse which promises future Messengers. Considering the verse before that, it suggest at the end time of every religious community, God sends another Messenger.
Moreover, the verse in Surih of Loqman, says the words of God in writing does not end, even if all the trees become pens, and the seas become ink.(See Quran 31:27)
Other verses, in Quran, suggest each Age has its own Book. Tradtions of Muhammad suggests, the religious community of Muhammad has an end, after that Mahdi appears.


So, from all these I do not see any reason to believe in finality of revelation of Quran.
One of the things that you ignored, was the question, that if God wanted to close every door to future revelations, He could have said that in a very clear verse, so, there would be no way to argue about it. I gave you an example from verses of Baha'u'llah, how He closed the door to another revelation for 1000 years.

tonyfish58

Bruce - Under 'User CP' You look at the LHS Index and go to 'Edit ignore List' and put the username in you wish to Ignore.

Hope you will reply to me sometimes

Cheers Tony

Iconodule

Only his son knew the real meaning behind his words? Then why even bother attempting to read them if you cannot possibly understand them? Its a terrible standard.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyfish58 Hope you will reply to me sometimes

Here's a reply for you, Tony:

Thanks for your assistance! :-)


Bruce

InvestigateTruth

Good question. This way Baha''i Faith does not divide into thousands of denominations as Christianity did which was by every Christian who invented his own interpretations and claimed to know the true inpterpretation.

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth:

Like all Bahais, you keep on faffing about my website, but you been unable to establish even a single point against it. Send me one reference which is incorrect and then lets chat up.

I have not ignored your question. I just think that if the Quran and the Prophet told us that Islam is the final revelation for this humanity, then so be it. Islam is sufficient for us. The laws of Islam which were prevalent 1,400 years ago are still applicable and relevant today.

The Quran read in isolation without traditions will misguide. And Bahais take advantage of that. Your arguments are no different. Bringing up random verses without any context is the hallmark of any discussion with Bahais. Tell me what the prophet and his successors said about those verses and the true picture will emerge. Bahais selectively use traditions. You referred one book about the Mahdi which has more than 200 traditions and you bring one tradition and expect everyone to take that as the foundation of the Bahai Faith. Refer the other 199 traditions about the Mahdi. It refutes everything that the Bab claimed. But you did not respond upon that as well.

The Bahai Faith brings nothing new to humanity. It talks about unity of religion, but is unable to unite its own. Read the parts about excommunication and the sects of Bahais on my web site to know what I am talking about. If you have a point about my web site, refute these points. Tell me that there are no sects in Bahais and that Shoghi did not excommunicate his entire family. Where is the love and peace and understanding that the Bahai talk about? Momentarily lost?

Regards,

imranshaykh

Read up on Sects of Bahais on my web site. You are wilfully lying by denying the sects and the factions within the Bahai Faith. Read up about the court case in the US about the use of the word Bahai.

Also if you have the time, energy, desire, inclination, then read up on the failed prophecy about the UHJ.

imranshaykh

Bahaullah was mistaken. Islam clearly denies the crucifixion of Christ. Either then Bahaullah is lying to appeal to the Christians or is denying the word of Allah - the Quran and the word of the prophet of Allah (pbuh).

Thank you for the reference though. It is useful for my site....

imranshaykh

You told me that you have examples to establish why the return of Jesus is spiritual. I gave you examples why I think the return is physical.

Now you come back saying that you will come back on this topic when you have time. I don't think you have any examples. Simply because Islam denies the spiritual return of anything.

Secondly, in line with the discussion, whenever you have the "time" (which I don't think you will ever have), please send me narrative proofs - proofs from divine revelation before Bahaullah. Please don't send me your personal interpretations.

Regards,

imranshaykh

Also worth reading are the words of Abdul Baha in which he said that Guardianship will continue forever and then Shoghi died in 1957 without a child!

Also, refer to the tradition of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that there will be 30 people who will falsely claim prophethood after me...

InvestigateTruth

I think, we discussed this issue enough. There is enough information on this thread to show the facts.

LordOfGoblins

I really have no time for the forum at the moment. You can believe me or not.
after this dont expect an immediate response..

----------------

Translated from Theodore bar Konai, Liber Scholiorum (CSCO scrip. syri, ser. II, t. 66;

ed. A. Scher; Paris: Carolus Poussielgue, 1912) 74-75.


For discussion and commentary, see J.C. Reeves, Heralds of That Good Realm: Syro-Mesopotamian Gnosis and Jewish Traditions (NHMS 41; Leiden: Brill, 1996) 126-29; idem, "Reconsidering the 'Prophecy of Zardusht'," A Multiform Heritage: Studies on Early Judaism and Christianity in Honor of Robert A. Kraft (ed. B.G. Wright; Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1999) 167-82.
The Prophecy of Zardušt regarding Christ:

When Zardušt was sitting by the spring of waters named Gloša of Horin, the place where the ancient royal bath stood, he opened his mouth and spoke to his disciples Guštasp, Sasan, and Mahman, (saying) ‘I tell you, my beloved ones and sons whom I have educated in my teachings. Hearken, (for) I shall reveal to you a marvelous secret concerning the great king who is going to come in the world. In the fullness of time and at the end of the final age an infant will be conceived and its members shaped within the womb of a virgin, without a man approaching her. He will be like a tree with lovely foliage and copious fruit that stands in a parched place. The inhabitants of that place will obstruct his growth, and struggle to uproot him from the ground, but they will not succeed. Then they shall seize him and put him to death upon a tree, and heaven and earth will sit in mourning due to his murder, and the generations of the peoples will mourn him. He will begin (by) descending to the abyss of the earth, and from the abyss he will be exalted to the height. Then he will reappear when he comes with an army of light, riding upon bright clouds, for he is the child conceived by the word which established the natural order.’

Guštasp said to Zardušt: ‘This one of whom you speak all these things—from where does his power come? Is he greater than you, or are you greater than he?’

Zardušt replied to him: ‘He shall arise from my lineage and family. I am he, and he is me; he is in me, and I in him. When the advent of his coming is made manifest, great signs will appear in heaven, and a bright star will appear in the midst of heaven, whose light will surpass the light of the sun. Now, my sons, you (who) are the seed of life which came forth from the treasuries [of life and] of light and of spirit, and (who) were sown in a place of fire and water, it is necessary for you to watch and guard these things which I have told you so that you can look for his appointed time. For you will be the first to perceive the arrival of that great king, the one whom the prisoners await so that they can be released. And now, my sons, preserve the secret which I have revealed to you, and let it be inscribed upon your hearts, and may it be preserved in the treasuries of your souls. When that star which I told you about rises, you shall dispatch messengers bearing gifts, and they shall offer worship to him and present the gifts to him. Do not be neglectful, so that you not perish by the sword, for he is the king of kings, and all (kings) receive their crowns from him. I and he are one.’
-----------------


"I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth,
nor shall I be the last.
In due time another Buddha will arise in the world,
a Holy One, a supremely enlightened One,
endowed with wisdom in conduct,
auspicious, knowing the universe,
an incomparable leader of men,
a master of angels and mortals.
He will reveal to you the same eternal truths
which I have taught you.
He will preach his religion,
glorious in its origin,
glorious at the climax,
and glorious at the goal,
in the spirit and in the letter.
He will proclaim a religous life,
wholly perfect and pure;
such as I now proclaim."

----------------------

Likewise, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of the melody of that eternal beauty, Husayn, son of Ali, who, addressing Salman, spoke words such as these: "I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared 168 the Successorship conferred upon my father." He then recounteth certain details, until he saith: "I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels." Endeavour now to apprehend from these two traditions the mysteries of "end," "return," and "creation without beginning or end."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 167)

----------------------

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord" -Malachi 4:1-5

Now, let us turn to the Gospels for further elucidation:

"10 The disciples asked him, 'Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?'

11 Jesus replied, 'To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.' 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."

See how clearly the Christ explains the meaning of this tradition which had been for so long interpreted as a promise for the LITERAL return of Elijah. Was the Baptist the physical form of Elijah? Certainly not. Did the Baptist come out of the sky? Obviously not, else the disciples would not have needed an explanation from the Lord Christ. And finally, was the Baptist a reincarnation of the soul of Elijah into the body of John the Baptist? Let us look at what the Holy Gospel tells us, from the words of the Baptist himself:

"So they asked him, 'What are you then? Are you Elijah?' And he said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" -John 1:21

Therefore, in what sense was the Baptist the return of the Prophet Elijah? Again, let us look to the Holy Gospel for answers:

"13 But the angel said to him: 'Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.'"
Luke 1:13-17

----------------------------
They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath 153 Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Ali. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 151)

Sermon of the Gulf

------------------

ahanu

Yes, mainstream Islam clearly denies the crucifixion of Christ, but the Koran does not, for the Koran merely states: "They did not slay him, neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them as if it was so." Notice what the Koran does not say, for it does not read, "HE WAS NOT SLAIN NOR WAS HE CRUCIFIED," as most Muslims seem to read into the text. The emphasis is on they--those doing the slaying and the crucifying.

The Koran describes their characteristics a few verses before the crucifixion verse: "Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few" (4.155). Their hearts are hardened, and so they are spiritually blind; therefore, it seemed they crucified Jesus, and it seemed they killed Jesus. However, they could not see with their hearts the resurrected Jesus. That's why the Koran says "they did not slay him, neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them as if it was so."

Other theories just don't make sense. Consider the idea that God caused the likeness of Jesus to fall on someone else, so the nonbelievers thought it was Jesus on the cross when it was not. This is absurd! Fakhr al-Din al-Razi perceived the absurdity this theory, saying: "This would of course lead to the negation of all sacred laws (shara’i‘). Moreover, the fundamental principle in all widely transmitted reports is that the first narrator must report what he clearly perceived with his senses. But if erroneous confusion is possible with regard to what is seen with the eye, then the falsity of widely accepted reports is more probable. In sum, opening the door of this possibility begins with confusion or sophistry and ends with the total negation of the prophethood of all prophets." In other words, if God would allow Himself to cast the likeness of a Messenger onto someone else, then this opens the door to all kinds of confusion: we would no longer be able to trust what we witness with our senses. If God did it once, God can do it again. "In sum," says al-Razi, "opening this door would of necessity discredit factual historical transmission."

Al-Tabarsi, a famous Muslim commentator, once noted the confusion among his fellow Muslim brethren: "How did God cause Jesus to appear to them? Muslim exegetes have differed as to the manner of appearing which was caused to appear to the Jews in the manner of Jesus (upon him be peace)." Three of the four theories he mentions includes the following: sleep, death through ascension, and death through crucifixion. Considering this, it always strikes me as strange when a Muslim claims any other reader of the Koran who disagrees with the mainstream interpretation is trying to appease Christians, because the Koran says: "And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers" (Koran 10.93).

The acension theory doesn't make sense either. One account says: "Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn 'Abbas saying: 'When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just taken a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water, He said to them: 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' Then he said: 'Who from among you will take my likeness and be killed in my place, so he will reach my rank?' A youth came forward. But Jesus said to him: 'Sit down.' Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forward, and said: 'I.' Jesus said: 'You are the one,' and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window (in the roof) of the house." This idea is based on an incorrect theory of the universe: heaven is up, hell is down, and the Earth is in-between these two afterlifes. It stands with other ridiculous traditions, such as the one that states Muhammad split the moon in two parts.

InvestigateTruth

Well, as you said it yourself. you just think Quran and the prophet said it is the final revelation. There is enough discussion in this thread to see, what you think is incorrect.



This is your openion with nothing to support it.

200 new volumes of scriptures explaining all the details of how unity of mankind shall be established. You just ignored it.

InvestigateTruth

I did not say that there was never an attempt to create sects in Baha'i Faith. Like all other religions there has been attempts, but they failed to create sects in the Baha'i Faith.
When we talk about sects, shouldn't there be at least 1% followers for those sects?

Moreover, Baha'i scriptures is clear about successorship after Baha'u'llah, so, there is no way, sects can be created.
The number of those who tried creating new sects, has never grown to more than perhapes 1000 people (at best!), comparing to about 6 millions of Baha'is. And many of them even lost their numbers.
That is much less than 0.05% of the whole population of Baha'is.
I personally never seen any Baha'is other than Baha'is, even during a few years in the forums.
There are internet sites claiming sects of Baha'i, but one person can create many sites to pretend there are sects in Baha'i faith. Every Faith has enemies.

We already discussed these in details in other threads. Please refer to them, and if you can add anything more, please do so in the proper thread.

imranshaykh

I had told you earlier. Nothing in Islam to support your "theory." Islam denies the spiritual return of anything.

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth:

Quran and traditions tell us that Islam is the final revelation. You have been unable to establish that there will be a new prophet after the Holy Prophet of Islam. Every discussion takes us on a wild goose chase to the Mahdi and then to the Bab and beyond. Just bring one tradition in which the Holy Prophet or his successors told us that there will be another revelation. Simple.

You brought two traditions out of a book which has 200 traditions about the Mahdi. But selectively you bring up two traditions because they are mildly in favour of your argument. But you want to ignore all the other 198 traditions which are clearly not in favour of the Bahia Faith. Tut tut. Not good.

Read the traditions of the Mahdi. More than 25% of the traditions talk about how Mahdi will establish justice and equality in Mankind IN HIS LIFETIME. These traditions are in the book which you referred. Forget about the Bab's lifetime, the Bahais claim to be the most persecuted community on this planet. Bab was killed by firing, Bahaullah was imprisoned..and Bahais are persecuted! What signs of the Mahdi did Bab fulfill? None.

200 volumes to bring unity in mankind! Forget unity in mankind, first AB and Shoghi should have brought unity in their family. Every member, save a few were excommunicated by AB and SE. Today there is one mainstream Bahai sect with 16 other sects. Each one abuses the other. In fact Bahais have even coined words for them like shunning, excommunication and even covenant breaking! Bahais should first unite their own, or at least read the 200 volumes befor trying to preach to the world. In any case, Bahais have no answer how to reconcile the tenets which are irrefutable in all religions - example, Islam denies that God has a son, but mainstream Christianity claims that Jesus is the son of God.

My view on the interpretation of the Quran through traditions is not my own. it is of the prophet and the successors of the prophet. Islam cannot exist without the help of traditions. Without traditions and the narrations of the prophet, we would not know the true meaning of anything.

imranshaykh

Dear Ahanu:

Quran denies the crucifixion of Christ. Can you bring one tradition of the prophet which supports your view? I don't think so. I am not interested in the views of Muslim scholars because I don't think they will be taken in context. In any case, read my posts or the threads - Islam is understood through Quran and traditions only. Please bring one tradition to support your view. I doubt that you will find any tradition simply because there are none.

Just because your limited intellect is unable to comprehend that how Allah will raise Christ, or transform the vision of people so that they see something, it does not mean that the event will not happen. Also, your personal view in this matter is well your personal view which for a discussion on Islam is worthless. You can air it and I can hear it, but what really matters is the view of those people who matter which in the case of Islam is the prophet and the successors of the prophet. Please let me know their views. Incidentally, you should know that their view matches with the Quran - Christ was not crucified and he is alive on the fourth heaven.

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth, please see the following quotation of Imam Ali from Nahajul Balagha - one of the most authentic books in Islamic history -

"While arguing, never quote statements from the Holy Qur'an because the passages of this Book require very careful consideration as they could be paraphrased in various ways and their meanings could be construed differently. Thus, you will adhere to your explanation and they will stick to their elucidation. Therefore, argue with them in the light of the traditions of the Holy Prophet (s) and then they will find no way to misrepresent truth."

So, please talk to us in the light of traditions and do not attempt to interpret the Quran in your own way. The Imam knew that over time there will be communities like Bahais who will misrepresent the verses of the Quran and hence they left for us a rich legacy of narrations through which we can arrive at the correct interpretation of every verse.

LordOfGoblins

BEST ReBUTTAL EVERRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

imranshaykh

True Bahai scriptures are clear about the succession of Bahaullah, but after Shoghi, the prophecies of Abdul Baha regarding succession came to nought because he prophecised that Guardianship would continue in the progeny of Shoghi. But Shoghi died childless and the Bahai Faith became without any Guardian. Every sects is based solely upon the Guardianship of the Bahai Faith. Please read up on my site so that you know what I am talking about.

As regards the number of Bahais in the world, 6 million is grossly exaggerated. Please read up on the numbers story on my website. I had put it in another thread as well.

Enemies or not, every sect of the Bahai Faith has its own story to tell. Bahais should discuss, debate and argue among themselves and unite first. Then try to unite mankind which is anyways more difficult that uniting Bahais!

imranshaykh

Thank you. I appreciate it!

If you think I am wrong, please bring something from Islam which establishes your point. Just writing something in CAPS with 20 (or more) exclamation marks does not strengthen your case.

LordOfGoblins

We've been over this.
You just ignored my entire post.
I dont have to always use the Quran becaue the Quran acknowledges the prophets I listed or at least most of them.
If you want to deny their holy books thats up to you.

SeventhValley

Islam accepts that Muhammad is an extension of the faith of Abraham and is foretold in the Bible.

Jesus is a prophet in Islam. Elijah was suppose to come with the return of Moses in Jewish messianic theology. Christian tradition has John the Baptist as fulfilling the return of Elijah and Jesus as the new Moses.

Unless you do not believe Muhammad was foretold in the bible. Unless you believe Jesus was not a prophet. If you accept the idea of a coming Mahdi who Muhammad said "His name will be my name, and his father’s name my father’s name" then unless you throw out all these ideas you accept spiritual return.

LordOfGoblins

This is the most absurd thing that I have ever heard!!
It amounts to saying that God should take away free will so that no man can create his own interpretation of succession however deluded and start his own tiny sect!!

also if you understood the covenant you would see that they are not Bahai sects. They are outside the Bahai covenant.
Since you have no spiritual eyes though, and are as blind as a bat, you just stick to the cold letter and use what you can to attack the faith!!
Very transparant!

InvestigateTruth

This is what the some of the Moslem religious leader has been doing all the time. They bring a verse out of Quran, and make-up their own Tafseers and interpretations. A clear example of it is "the Seal". Read Quran, see a few verses before and after the verse which says Muhammad the seal of Prophets. It has nothing to do with finality of a revelation of God.
But also read verse 7:35 with one verse before it and a couple of verses after it. It is clearly saying, every Ummah (the followers of a Messenger) have an end term, when their end comes, God does not wait even One hour. He sends another Messenger with verses.
It is then clear what Baha'is refer to in Quran is within the context, but what some moslem religious leaders do, is not only within the context, but also making up their Tafseer.

InvestigateTruth

You just denied all those traditions of Muhammad, that He was before Adam. It can only mean He was returned in a spiritual sense. That is the unity of Messengers. Their first is their last, and their last is their first.
You also ignored the traditions of Ali in the Sermon of th Gulf, which He says He was with Noah, Adam, and other Messengers. That also signifies the spiritual return of Holy Ones of God, the companions of Prophets in every Age.

"If thou sayest that Muhammad was the “return” of the Prophets of old, as is witnessed by this verse, His Companions must likewise be the “return” of the bygone Companions, even as the “return” of the former people is clearly attested by the text of the above-mentioned verses." Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

Pete in Panama

Talk from believers about our Sacred Creator is nice. What's better is actual quotes from His Holy Scriptures and specific things we can all see for ourselves

1. 47:18 The Quran, being the Final Testament, provides all the signs needed to pinpoint the end of the world; AD 2280.
   .
   
2. The splitting of the moon: This already happened in June 1969 when we landed on the moon and brought back moon rocks. People on earth can go now to many museums, colleges and observatories to look at pieces of the moon.
   .
3. 3:81 This major prophecy has now been fulfilled. God's Messenger of the Covenant, as prophesied in this verse and in the Bible's Malachi 3:1-21, Luke 17:22-36 & Matthew 24:27, is to purify and unify God's messages which were delivered by God's prophets. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. have been severely corrupted. It is the will of Almighty God to purify them and unify them under the banner of worshiping Him alone. Overwhelming evidence has been provided by God in support of His Messenger of the Covenant, whose name is incontrovertibly specified in the Quran's mathematical code as "Rashad Khalifa." For example, adding the gematrical value of "Rashad" (505), plus the value of "Khalifa" (725), plus the verse number (81) gives 1311, or 19x69 (see Appendix 2 for the detailed evidence).

More info available here.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh Today there is one mainstream Bahai sect with 16 other sects.

And what you ignore is that many of these other sects are already extinct!


Bruce

tonyfish58

You have also said this "The Quran read in isolation without traditions will misguide. And Bahais take advantage of that. Your arguments are no different. Bringing up random verses without any context is the hallmark of any discussion with Bahais. Tell me what the prophet and his successors said about those verses and the true picture will emerge. Bahais selectively use traditions. You referred one book about the Mahdi which has more than 200 traditions and you bring one tradition and expect everyone to take that as the foundation of the Bahai Faith. Refer the other 199 traditions about the Mahdi. It refutes everything that the Bab claimed. But you did not respond upon that as well".

In a post above I offered a link to the Book of Certitude. It appears you did not take up the offer to read it?

This book will answer all your questions and puts the Koran verses in context, May I suggest you read this book, mediate and then offer a reply.

Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán

To keep refuting the answers posted here is rather pointless, you can go straight to the source and offer question in relation to the original text.

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth

Again, with all the respect, I see a logical error in you statements.

Firstly, Abdulbaha did not prophecize, but formulated. There is a difference.
He formulated the way, the gardianship and House of Justice to be established, and what are their functions.

For Baha'is, the Number One Book, is the Most Holy Book, which We Believe is the Word of God.
So, Now, if for the time being you assume you are a Baha'i and You believe absolutly The Most Holy Book is the Word of God, then what is your understanding of the following paragraph 42 of the Book:

"Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsán, and after them to the House of Justice—should it be established in the world by then—that they may use these endowments for the benefit of the Places which have been exalted in this Cause, and for whatsoever hath been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the God of might and power. Otherwise, the endowments shall revert to the people of Bahá who speak not except by His leave and judge not save in accordance with what God hath decreed in this Tablet—lo, they are the champions of victory betwixt heaven and earth—that they may use them in the manner that hath been laid down in the Book by God, the Mighty, the Bountiful."


Specially paying attention that God says:

"After Him(i.e. Baha'u'llah), this authority shall pass to the Aghsán, and after them to the House of Justice—should it be established in the world by then..."

It is clear that the Book is saying, the House of Justice may even be stablished after Aghsan. That is to say, when there is no more Aghsan. That is indeed what happend. There was Abdulbaha and then Shoqi Effendi who were the Aghsans. Once the Shoghi Effendi is passed, then some years after that, House of Justic is established.

As to the formulation of Abdulbaha, there is surely a Wisdom in it. The reason is that Abdulbaha is the infallible appointed successor of Baha'u'llah.
As the reason why Shoghi did not choose His own successor, it is because He as the infllible gardian did not find it necessary to choose anybody, as this was also prophecised in the paragraph 42. The reason that Abdulbaha also did not formulate in case if Shoghi Effendi does not choose after Him, can again be seen as paragraph 42. (Because there was nothing more to be done, other than election of UHJ)

Ok, now, you can go back from the assumption of being Baha'i, to whatever you believe.

By the way do you believe in Bada?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bada''

And also:

If I am not mistaking, according to Quran, everyone should have a Will. But I think Muhammad did not leave a written Will.
Or, Imam Sadiq first chose one of His sons as His succesor, later He changed Him.
Or, once the enemies of Islam, told Muhammad to send some of His People to them to teach them Quran, because they believe. But once Muhammad send them, they killed them. Then the infiddles said, why, the God of Muhammad had not informed Him of the trick.

Just wondering how you as a Moslem accepted these.


As to your numbers, I see them as no value, because, there is no proofs for them. Moreover there are Christian sources, several other sources that estimate the numbers of Baha'is between 6-7 millions. Why Should a Christian source exaggerate?

Fadl

Dear Imran,


Even though I have a hunch that since you are convinced of your own truth to the extent that you will never do more than argue with us, here is a Hadith that is relevant to your request for a Hadith that there would be a new revelation or messenger:

It was reported from ‘Awf ibn Maalik who said: the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

“The Jews were divided into seventy-one sects, one of which is in Paradise and seventy are in the Fire. The Christians were divided into seventy-two sects, seventy-one of which are in the Fire and one is in Paradise. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, my Ummah will be divided into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two will be in the Fire.” It was said, O Messenger of Allah, who are they? He said, “Al-Jamaa’ah.”
[Sunan Ibn Maajah, no. 3982]

I think this Hadith is relevant to your discussion for the following reasons. As I'm sure you will agree, of all the Jewish sects that existed at the time of Jesus only the one that followed Him was on the path of true guidance. Later, at the time of Muhammad, of all the Christian sects that evolved from the time of Jesus, only the sect that followed Muhammad was on the path of true guidance. Now, since the Hadith prophecies that Islam will likewise be divided into sects just as the Jews and Christians before, and only one of these 73 sects will be on the path of guidance and in God's presence in paradise, and since the true sect of the Jews and Christians of old were only distinguished as true or false based on the recognition or rejection of the messenger that came to them, by what mechanism will the sect of Islam that is on the path of guidance be distinguished from those that tread the path of error if no messenger is to come? There is nothing in this Hadith to let us believe that the criterion for the Muslims will be unique to that of the Christians and Jews before them. As you can see in the Hadith, the difference between each religion at the time that one sect is in paradise and the others cast into the fire is a factor of 1. There were 71 sects of Jews, 72 sects of Christians, and 73 sects of Muslims, and of each group, only one is in paradise. This is not surprising, for each "new religion" began as a "sect of the previous, thus increasing the number of sects for each subsequent religion by 1.

Perhaps you will interpret this Hadith differently than I have, but perhaps you will give it some consideration.


Cheers

ahanu

No, any objective observation would at least accept the Koran is ambiguous on the crucifixion of Christ. "They did not slay him, neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them as if it was so." Where does the Koran deny crucifixion? This could mean they--the Jews--did not crucify or slay the Christ, but it was God. Consider this verse: "Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower" (Koran 8.17). Does this mean the Muslims didn't fight in battle? The Koran says, "Ye (Muslims) slew them not . . ." If we accept your literal reading--a face value reading--of the crucifixion verse, should we apply the same literalism to Koran 8.17?

No, I don't need traditions, because traditions themselves are interpretations of events too, and they don't stand exalted above error. They remain in their cultural contexts, which could bar us from the truth.

"I have heard a tradition of the ancients, whether true or not they only know; although if we had found the truth ourselves, do you think that we should care much about the opinions of men?"
-Socrates

imranshaykh

It is precisely for this this reason that we need traditions. The Holy Prophet has explained even the meaning of the verse which you have quoted. But you can choose to ignore it. Can you tell me when this verse was revealed? In Mecca or Medina? Or while the prophet was alone or was he with someone? Was it revealed in the mosque or in the war? There are hundreds of questions which arise for very verse. If you believe that Allah left us without any guidance and for us to interpret every verse on our own, then you are deluded.

Allah says - "This is a Book of Guidance." At another place Allah says that if you differ in interpretation, then refer to the prophet and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge." So my friend, traditions and narrations are important. The only, and only reason why the Bahai Faith shies away from traditions is because there is no scope for the existence of the Bahai Faith. My friend investigate truth brought 2 traditions about the Mahdi from a book which he himself quoted coolly ignoring the other 198 traditions in the book. Why? because the other 198 traditions reject the concept of Bab being the Mahdi. So you see, traditions are a rich source of guidance for us and Islam has developed the understanding of traditions into a science. We are not going to ignore that.

In any case, Socrates can keep his opinion to himself. We are talking about the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his successors. Socrates is not even equal to the dust on the feet of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in our view.

ahanu

If Muhammad explained the meaning of the verse, then why do your traditions vary since Muhammad clearly explained the meaning of the verse?

ahanu

Why do you ignore mainstream Christian tradition?

ahanu

So, in other words, we should just listen to the opinions of Muhammad and his successors in our life?

imranshaykh

Dear Fadl - yes, this tradition exists. Since the Bahai Faith claims to be the one which is the successor of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, it should tell us which is the sect in each which is successful. I will be particularly interested in which are the 73 sects in Islam and which one is the successful one.

I do not agree with your assessment that the condition for being the successful sect is that the subsequent dispensation was followed.