imranshaykh

I will answer the question once you bring me the traditions which have been quoted for the verse. Then we can take a call whether the traditions vary or not. We can also then take a call whether this verse is relevant to our discussion.

imranshaykh

I deny your posts because you bring me nothing from Islam. I have been saying from the start of the discussion on this topic that Islam denies the spiritual return of anything. I gave you examples from traditions and the Quran to support my view. I also told you that don't give me anything from before Islam. The topic can be concluded easily if you can bring me something from Islam to show that there can be spiritual return of anything.

My friend Investigate Truth brings one tradition about the Holy Prophet being before Adam and the other prophets. yes, this tradition exists and we believe in it. We agree that the Holy Prophet is the first creation of Allah and he remained with Allah till such time that Allah chose to bring him to this world at the time when he did. We believe as such for Ali as well. There is no confusion. We do not claim that there is spiritual return of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)

imranshaykh

Dear Tony, I have read the Iqan and in its original language. And I can tell you that the interpretation of Bahaullah is well, his own interpretation and it contradicts what the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his successors told us. And therein lies the problem. Bahaullah brings us traditions which are not found in any book, from sources which are unknown (refer to the thread on the book of Avalim, which I asked for the reference and my friend Investigate Truth is yet to come back on).

So you see for every aspect of Allah, Islam and man, Bahaullah contradicts everything, everything that the prophet told us. And you see if you turn to the prophet and his narrations, then there is no scope for any Bahai Faith.

imranshaykh

Christianity is not the point of our discussion. The discussion is about Islam and the Bahai Faith and the finality of the prophethood of the Holy Prophet of Islam.

imranshaykh

Disagree. All of them exist. Please see my website. I have provided links and email addresses for all sects. In any case, the formation of a single sect is a slap on the face of the Bahais because they are meant to unite the world. Read about excommunication on my site. Please come back to me and tell that it is false that AB and SE excommunicated most of their family members. What role models! Preaching unity to the world, but could not keep their own together!

ahanu

Christian tradition is not the point of our discussion, but it is a point of our discussion. You state: "The only, and only reason why the Bahai Faith shies away from traditions is because there is no scope for the existence of the Bahai Faith." You shy away from Christian tradition, no? Aren't you doing the same thing you accuse the Baha'is of doing?

Fadl

Imran al-aziz,

Do you not find it significant that, according to the Hadith, each faith has precisely one more sect than the prior? Also, do you not acknowledge that the true and successful sect of the Jews was certainly the sect brought by his Holiness Christ Jesus?

There is scriptural evidence that recognition of the subsequent messenger is indeed the criterion for which sect is successful. When the Jews were in the course of rejecting their messiah, Jesus said to them:

"For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me." (John 5:46)

Consider for a moment the significance of Jesus' words. He conditions the ability to believe in Him upon belief in Moses. Now what manner of Jew is it that doesn't believe in Moses? It is impossible to speak of a religious Jew that doesn't believe in Moses because such a Jew would not be a Jew at all. Thus, any Jew of any sect that rejected the Christ has also had his faith in Moses tested and is ostensibly cast out of the true Jewish faith by the fact that they do not believe in Jesus and by extension their lack of understanding or true belief in Moses becomes manifested. Similarly, it is impossible for us to admit as Muslims and Baha'is that Christians at the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammad who rejected him are just as correct and equal to those who acknowleged and believed in Him.

As for your statement that there is no "return" in Islam, I would like you to expand on this if you don't mind. I don't pretend to know everything about Islam or about your belief in particular, however, I do know that you are in a minority opinion among Muslims if you do not believe that Jesus will return on the day of resurection. Is not the return of Jesus the return of a messenger of God, in your view?

SeventhValley

To me I see the story of the Bab(Mahdi) and Baha'u'llah(the second coming of Jesus) especially as seen by the Shaykhi Islam who views all returns as spiritual.

So from both a Orthodox and Mystical Islamic view the Baha'i faith fits the bill. For you to spend so much time on the Faith I think you must secretly want to become a Baha'i feel free to PM me if you want to

LordOfGoblins

Your requirements are created by your own standards. They are not Gods standards.
So for example you may need in the Quran an exact quote - I dont know how clear a statement you would require, but something to the extant that "Spiritual return of prophets is true". Something that clear because the way you read the Quran is sort of like a story book. You dont try to understand it beyond face-value appearances and overly obvious literal interpretation. Of course that is the method that made the Jews deny Jesus kingdom since he had no literal kingdom when he came.
So they put a crown of thorns on his head and thought themselves smart for doing so.
A bit like how the Mullas shot the Bab and banished Baha'u'llah and thought themselves clever for doing so..

tonyfish58

I wish you well in life & Faith imranshaykh, I can see in discussing this we will just go around in circles

I have stated before it was established traditions and accusations that the prophet did not quote correct scripture that held others back from accepting Jesus & Muhammad. To keep imputing this to Baha'u'llah only adds to the fire of His Truth (IMHO).

All the best

Regards Tony

imranshaykh

Dear Fadl al-Azizi,

The statement I made regarding the return is that there is no "spiritual return" of anything in Islam. Any return is physical. So we do not ascribe to the spiritual return of Jesus or the Mahdi or the Holy Prophet or of Hussain (as several of Bab's followers did). Tahera claimed to be the spiritual return of Fatema, the daughter of the Prophet. We reject all of this simply because in Islam there is no concept of spiritual return of anything.

Every return, whether in this world or the Hereafter is physical. So we believe that Jesus will return and so will the Mahdi in his own person and not in the person of anything else. To simplify this further, we believe that the same Jesus who existed before the Holy Prophet is alive on the 4th heaven and will return at the time of the advent of the Mahdi and will recite salah behind him.

I hope this is clear to you.

As regarding the sects of Islam, I do not know what is the conclusion that you are trying to derive. Is it that only those Muslims who accepted Bahaullah are the successful ones? If that is your conclusion, then it is contrary to the view of the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh). Because the Holy Prophet never claimed that any person would follow him as a new prophet or messenger.

imranshaykh

I wish you all the best in life and more importantly in the Hereafter. I have always maintained that this worldly life is a short one and truth will be out in the Hereafter, when we all will be questioned about our beliefs and actions in this world.

The Holy Prophet told us that whatever we do in this world, we will have an accounting of deeds in the hereafter. There is a detailed discussion on what happens at the time of death, at the time of burial, at the time of questioning in the grave and at the time of resurrection and at the time of the day of Judgement. Bahaullah has fooled the Bahais by denying all of this.

A third of the Quran and traditions are about this topic. Read them. Read the Nahajul Balagha of Imam Ali, read the supplications of the Imams who followed the Holy Prophet and you will see the difference in Islam and the Bahai Faith.
Do read all of this. Even if for academic interest. Read it.

Death approaches you and me and one day we will be answerable to Allah. I don't know whether at all I will meet you in this world, but I will definitely seek you out in the hereafter. We can compare notes. If Islam is the final revelation, then I will benefit and you will lose. Because then the promised reward will be real and so will the punishment.

If the Bahai Faith is right and I am wrong, then even you will get spiritual nearness to Allah and what I will get - spiritual distance from Allah. Even you dont know what that means and nor do I. I will take the chance!

imranshaykh

My standards are those which are set by the Prophet of Allah and his successors. Talk about the Quran but in the light of traditions. Traditions deny spiritual return of anything. Why Islam, even Bab denies the spiritual return of the Mahdi. Read Tafseere' Surah Kauthar of the Bab. When he talks about the Mahdi, he says -

"Imam Sadiq has related in a lengthy tradition, saying: "The occultation of our Qa'im will be denied by the umma. Some will say, without any knowledge: The Imam was never born; others will say: he was born, but he died. Still others will become disbelievers and will say: The eleventh Imam had no offspring at all. Some will spread factionalism in the community by what they say, and will go beyond the twelve Imams and will count thirteen or more Imams. There will be those who will cause God's anger to engulf them by saying: The spirit of the Qa'im is speaking through another person."

I hope you will read and re-read the above sentences. Not only do they have relevance to our discussion about the spiritual return of anything, but also have relevance to the discussion of the Bab being the spiritual return of the Mahdi.

This is the fifth reference I have offered you from Islam and the Bahai Faith which denies spiritual return of anything. All you have to offer is stuff before Islam (which is questionable) or the statements of Bahaullah (which are tangential to Islam)

Regards,

imranshaykh

Nope, even Shaykhi Islam does not advocate spiritual return of anything. Shaykhi Islam advicates a physically living Imam and that Shaykh Ahsai and Sayyed Kazim were the gates (Bab) to that Imam. The Bab also claimed the be a Bab or a gate to that same living Imam. He was ok and untroubled by the authorities till such time that he was the gate for there were several lunatics who had made the same claim earlier.

It was only when he claimed to be the Imam himself when trouble started for him. Read the examination of the Bab at Tabriz. He claims to be the same Imam who is living. He does not claim to be the spiritual return of the Imam. This is a concept that the Bahais manufactured because the Bab did not fit the bill of the Imam (long life, occultation, hidden birth etc).

I will be happy to consider becoming a Bahai if the Bahais can present a single tradition from the Holy Prophet in which he has asserted that there will be another prophet or messenger after him.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce What you ignore is that many of these other groups are already extinct!

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh Disagree. All of them exist.

Pure hot air on your part!

I'll cite just two examples, and I'm sure there are others:

> The Remey Society is now extinct.

> The Man--"The House of Mankind and the Universal Palace of Order" followed Jamshid Ma'ani and John Carré, but appears now to be defunct.

Q. E. D.

Bruce

LordOfGoblins

well im getting tired of this now to be honest.
There is nothing in the Quran that establishes the standards you mention here. In fact we have reason to believe from the Quran that holy writings of past revelations are to be respected as from the divine source.
If you are only going to read what is directly in the Koran then why even acknowledge the Qurans prophets?
Why call yourself a muslim at all? I thought a muslim is someone who respects the earlier revelations...

You seem to have a very narrow framework to work within...
And aside from that, being a purely literalist person is not the way to read the holy books and never has been...
Events predicting returns and prophetic descriptions are rarely literal. Just look at the book of John the divine that describes all manner of things like dragons coming from the earth, many headed beasts with horns etc. Those are events surrounding Judgement day when Christ would return and you would be a complete fool to say it is all literal.
Prophetic events are rarely if ever to be read with a literal lense on.

imranshaykh

Dear Bruce:
Read my web site. Repeat: Read my web site.

I have not mentioned either of the two. All the sects which I have mentioned on my site exist. There are some 15 of them there and all are active!

So hot air from your side, dear Bruce.

imranshaykh

Surprisingly, or rather, not surprisingly, you took out the Bab's quotation while replying. Also you chose to ignore it. Probably because it cancels out the Bab being the promised Mahdi. Also it indicates the curse of Allah upon those who claim that the spirit of the Mahdi is speaking through the Bab (read that as the Bahais).

I dont think I have a narrow framework. I think I have the correct framework. I keep on telling you to bring me one quotation from prophet (pbuh) which indicates that there is spiritual return of anything and I keep on telling you that you will fail because there is none. You can search till your eyes fall off and you will not find any narration.

As regards the interpretation of the words of prophets, we dont need your interpretation of whether they are to be taken literally or not. Who will decide or guess whether the prophet meant anything to be taken literally or not? You? Refer to traditions and the context of the tradition - which verse it refers to, who was it said to, when etc and you will have the context.

Your interpretation of reading traditions and verses of the Quran from a spiritual aspect is your interpretation only and that is worthless in my view. Bring one tradition from the prophet please.

As a Muslim, I accept and respect all prophets and accept and respect all revelations. There is no reason to do otherwise when the Quran and traditions testify to their existence. As a Muslim however, I do not accept the previous revelations to be present in the original form and hence do not certify their authenticity. For the previous dispensations, Muslims accept whatever the Holy Prophet and his successors told us about previous prophets which is a lot more than what Bab and Bahaullah told us in any case.

I am surprised that you are tired of this discussion. You haven't added any value, nor given me any examples to prove your point from Islam. Whereas I gave you five till now including one from the Bab.

tonyfish58

imranshaykh - While I was reading the writings this morning I had the urge to offer one more reply. This urge was brought about by your unkind words about Baha'ullah. You will not find this in all our replies, that is because we hold in high esteem the Prophet Muhammad, as do we for all the prophets.

You have accused Baha'u'llah as "Fooling" mankind. Over and over Baha'u'llah exhorts mankind to High Virtues. Before the troubles of the world today, Baha'ullah has laid the foundation that mankind needs to live in a "Most Great Peace". If you find a trouble in this world today, Baha'u'llah has written about it and given a solution.

Trustworthiness - Link to writings - Trustworthiness: A Cardinal Bahá'í Virtue
Truthfulness
Justice
Unity
Kindly Heart
Kindly Words
War is forbidden
Drugs & Alcohol are Forbidden

There are far to many to post here. If I am a fool for aiming to live this life, then I am glad I am a fool.

That we differ only because of mans interpretation of scripture, to me should says people really need to sit down and take a long hard look at what they beleive. Do they want to be exclusive or inclusive? Baha'ullah.
has given us the path to Inclusive.

I will sign off with a quote from Baha'u'llah, the passage that prompted me to defend Baha'u'llah

"O ye that dwell on earth! The religion of God is for love and unity; make it not the cause of enmity or dissension. In the eyes of men of insight and the beholders of the Most Sublime Vision, whatsoever are the effective means for safeguarding and promoting the happiness and welfare of the children of men have already been revealed by the Pen of Glory. But the foolish ones of the earth, being nurtured in evil passions and desires, have remained heedless of the consummate wisdom of Him Who is, in truth, the All-Wise, while their words and deeds are prompted by idle fancies and vain imaginings'.

Link - Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 219-223

As you have stated in your reply to me, "please consider this".

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

You think you have added value?
None of the quotes you gave prove return is literal at all. SHow me those 5 things. I cant even remember where you posted them.
You are not even muslim cos you dont respect holy books of the past.
And you think I need your flat mindless interpretation to help me advance in my understanding and quest for spiritual truth?
. You read the Koran like a story book. You may as well be reading greek mythology
Absolutely devoid of spiritual insights at all...
And you call it a religion and you call yourself a spiritual man?
PLease...

imranshaykh

Dear Tony,

I know about al this and there is nothing new in this. The Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) brought teachings which include all of this and even more. The depth in Islam is far higher than the depth in the Bahai Faith. But these are my words and should not mean anything to you. Go and read all what I told you and hopefully, if Allah guides you or rather if you seek guidance, then things should be a lot clearer for you.

As regards the point that Bahaullah fooled the people, I stand by that. That statement is made in the context of the Hereafter. Bahaullah made people live for this world and told them nothing about hereafter, which Allah in the Quran and the prophet in traditions told us is 'forever.'

I don't know about inclusive or exclusive. What I do I know is that after death, I will be alone in the grave and only my beliefs (the correct ones) and my actions (as Allah defined it) are going to help me. In the eyes of Islam, life is successful when it is lived as per the commands of Allah alone. Success is not success in this world, but success in the Hereafter.

imranshaykh

Dear Tony, if only Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi would have read the above quote, then they would not have excommunicated their family members and close friends. They would have treated them with love and unity.

InvestigateTruth

Not really, because in addition to above Quote Baha'u'llah had said:

"O FRIEND! In the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love, and from the nightingale of affection and desire loosen not thy hold. Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly."


"O YE SONS OF SPIRIT! Ye are My treasury, for in you I have treasured the pearls of My mysteries and the gems of My knowledge. Guard them from the strangers amidst My servants and from the ungodly amongst My people."

Moreover, excommunication means, avoid socializing and is different from hating. Abdulbaha said even love your enemy.

According to Mullahs if someone raises against Islam, he is given death penalty. According to Baha'i teachings, if someone raises against Baha'i Faith, we only avoid socializing.

InvestigateTruth

This is your personal view.

This is what Quran says:

"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation (TAWEEL) except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding." Quran 3:7

It means there are some verses in Quran that have a Hidden Meaning in them, and Only God Knows its interpretation.
The Arabic Word for interpretation of figurative verses is "Taweel". The word for the explanation of the other verses is "Tafseer". The Prophet left only Tafseer of Quran, but not Taweel.

Now, in Quran, it promises that the "Taweel" of Quran comes one day:

"What have they to wait for now but its interpretation (Taweel)? When its interpretation shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, "The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth; shall we have any intercessor to intercede for us? or could we not be sent back? Then would we act otherwise than we have acted." But they have ruined themselves; and the deities of their own devising have fled from them!" 7:53


In Baha'i view this promise is already fulfilled.
The most important part of Quran, was the Day of Resurrection, in which the "Dead" becomes "Alive".
In Baha'i view, this meant the coming of a new Guidance from God, by which the Spiritually Dead, can get Spiritual life again, and raise from the grave of error to the life of guidance.
The coming of Messengers and its time have been always a mystery of God which is only revealed in its own time.

Now as to the part of the verse which says:

"then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation"

In Baha'i View these were Moslem Religious Leaders who cling to literal interpretations of the Day of Resurrection and follow the allegorical parts, and use their own interpretations, and cause other Moslems not to recognize the New Revelation after Islam.

Now as to the time of the Day of Resurrection, in Baha'i view this verse of Quran alludes to it, and gives a hidden sign:


“He manages every command (Al-Amr) from the heaven to the earth. Again, it will go up to Him in a day, the span of which had been a thousand years of what you number." Quran 32:5


So let's look at the verse part by part:


"He manages every command (Al-Amr) from the heaven to the earth."


The word Al-Amr, is a word in Quran that is use to describe the cause of God, or the flow of Guidance.
In Islam the flow of guidance according to Shia Islam continued through the family of the Prophet Muhammad till the year 260 A.H.
Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


They were 12 Imams, who are known as infallibles, who according to Hadithes and Quran are chosen ones of God for the dispensation of Islam.


The same is also described in Bible according to Baha'i Scriptures:

In Revelation 12, verse 1, it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”

"This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: “upon her head is a crown of twelve stars.” These twelve stars are the twelve Imáms, who were the promoters of the Law of Muḥammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72



The second part of the verse:


"Again, it will go up to Him in a day, the span of which had been a thousand years of what you number."
This is the duration of dispensation of Islam, which was to come after 1000 year.


If you add 260 + 1000 you get the year 1260 A.H. The year the Bab declaired.


The same year can be calculated from the Bible:


"In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me ... at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44


With the Bible, you get the year 1844. But Year 1844 is the year 1260 A.H. in Islamic calander.


as-Sajdah 32:5


That means, the Day of Ressurection was to come 1000 years after the Faith of Islam (Amr), which corresponds exactly to the year Baha'i Revelation appeared. Not 1 year less, not 1 year more.

If you are going to make a reply, I demand you also make a reply to my last 2 or 3 posts, in this thread, and the other called "Baha'i numbers" which you have not replied. Otherwise it means you accepted them, and perhaps you want to change your website for the parts you get an answer you cannot reject (Or am I wasting my time?)

tonyfish58

imranshaykh - I am afraid the above comment you made in your last reply is far from the truth about what Baha'u'llah has said about this world.

Once again, because you are looking to find fault, you will.

In Fact, the Bab, Baha'u'llah & Abdul'baha have more writings on the subject of life after death than all the Holy Books of the past have said on the subject.

Here is but a few links - http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/rel...ort/death1.pdf - Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 188-190 & Heaven and hell: a Bahá'í view of life after death & Life, Death, and the Soul

Regards Tony

tonyfish58

InvestigateTruth gave ample reply to this statement.

Your efforts to find fault may be clouding actual facts, but I will leave that for you to ponder over.

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

1.
You have misinterpreted that verse. THe real interpretation is that his spirit lives on. They didnt really kill him because our bodies are just bodies. He lives in the next world in spirit form. Can you prove his body was never destroyed from the Quran?

2. A story of birds... And that tells us absolutely nothing about a prophets return. In fact you are insulting the return of a prophet by comparing to such a story.

3.
Another story showing the 'power' of allah which has nothing to do with whether returns are spiritual or physical...

4.Another miracle story of resurrection. Yes the bible is full of them. But this says nothing about a prophecised coming of a messenger....

And these are your "proofs" from the Quran?
They dont even talk about a prophet returning.. Wheras all of my references do, despite not being directly from the Quran..

ahanu

So, since you believe Jesus was not crucified, you believe tradition can err . . . even if it came from people Christians accept as Jesus' successors (also known as the Church Fathers)?

So what Islamic tradition do you accept about Jesus' crucifixion? Is it the one below?

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."

SeventhValley

The Bab was alive lol and also from Shaykhis - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

" Al-Ahsai was eventually condemned by traditional ulama because of his doctrine of spiritual rather than physical resurrection"

So you are incorrect.

Now you are saying their is a spiritual return which the Bab was
Second coming of Jesus which is in Baha'u'llah

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth:
Here are my responses to your points one by one in bold.

This is your personal view.

Nope. This is not my personal view. The views of Bahaullah, Bab and Bahais in general contradict the traditions of the prophet and the Imams. This is precisely the reason why Bahais deny traditons or they quote some obscure tradition. For the third time, I ask you for the reference of the book Avalim which is quoted by Bahaullah in the Iqan and every single time you have ignored it. If it is your most holy book, then bring the reference of the book which Bahaullah quotes.

I also told you that you brought 2 out of 200 traditions about the Mahdi from the book which you quoted (I did’nt). You did not refer to the other 198 traditions which throw out the concept of the Bab being the Mahdi simply because the Bab does not meet the criteria which is outlined by traditions.


This is what Quran says:
"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation (TAWEEL) except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding." Quran 3:7
It means there are some verses in Quran that have a Hidden Meaning in them, and Only God Knows its interpretation.
The Arabic Word for interpretation of figurative verses is "Taweel". The word for the explanation of the other verses is "Tafseer". The Prophet left only Tafseer of Quran, but not Taweel.

There are two points in this:
1. Who gave you the authority to decide which verses are clear and which are allegorical and who are the people who are firmly rooted in knowledge. Traditions tell us clearly that it is the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams who are firmly rooted in knowledge. Hence we refer to them for the explanation of the verses of the Quran.

2. Secondly, your interpretation of Tafseer and Taveel is wrong. Go and read up again on this from traditions. Secondly, this is your personal view that the prophet left only tafseer. The prophets and the Imams gave both. There are hundereds of traditions in which the prophet and the Imams have explained the verse and said that “this is the taveel of the verse.”
So dear Investigate Truth, get your facts right on this one.


Now, in Quran, it promises that the "Taweel" of Quran comes one day:
"What have they to wait for now but its interpretation (Taweel)? When its interpretation shall come, they who aforetime were oblivious of it shall say, "The Prophets of our Lord did indeed bring the truth; shall we have any intercessor to intercede for us? or could we not be sent back? Then would we act otherwise than we have acted." But they have ruined themselves; and the deities of their own devising have fled from them!" 7:53
In Baha'i view this promise is already fulfilled.
This view contradicts the view of the Holy Prophet and the Imams. Which is what I have maintained all along.


The most important part of Quran, was the Day of Resurrection, in which the "Dead" becomes "Alive".
In Baha'i view, this meant the coming of a new Guidance from God, by which the Spiritually Dead, can get Spiritual life again, and raise from the grave of error to the life of guidance.
The coming of Messengers and its time have been always a mystery of God which is only revealed in its own time.

This view contradicts the view of the Holy Prophet and the Imams. Which is what I have maintained all along.

Now as to the part of the verse which says:
"then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation"
In Baha'i View these were Moslem Religious Leaders who cling to literal interpretations of the Day of Resurrection and follow the allegorical parts, and use their own interpretations, and cause other Moslems not to recognize the New Revelation after Islam.

This view contradicts the view of the Holy Prophet and the Imams. Which is what I have maintained all along. Muslims only stuck to the traditions of the prophet because he told them that there would be 30 imposters after him who would be liars. Nothing allegorical about that. Perhaps Bahaullah should tell us who these 30 imposters are.

Now as to the time of the Day of Resurrection, in Baha'i view this verse of Quran alludes to it, and gives a hidden sign:
“He manages every command (Al-Amr) from the heaven to the earth. Again, it will go up to Him in a day, the span of which had been a thousand years of what you number." Quran 32:5
So let's look at the verse part by part:
"He manages every command (Al-Amr) from the heaven to the earth."
The word Al-Amr, is a word in Quran that is use to describe the cause of God, or the flow of Guidance.
In Islam the flow of guidance according to Shia Islam continued through the family of the Prophet Muhammad till the year 260 A.H.
Muhammad al-Mahdi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They were 12 Imams, who are known as infallibles, who according to Hadithes and Quran are chosen ones of God for the dispensation of Islam.
The same is also described in Bible according to Baha'i Scriptures:
In Revelation 12, verse 1, it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”
"This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: “upon her head is a crown of twelve stars.” These twelve stars are the twelve Imáms, who were the promoters of the Law of Muḥammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72
The second part of the verse:
"Again, it will go up to Him in a day, the span of which had been a thousand years of what you number."
This is the duration of dispensation of Islam, which was to come after 1000 year.
If you add 260 + 1000 you get the year 1260 A.H. The year the Bab declaired.
The same year can be calculated from the Bible:
"In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me ... at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. "
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 36-44
With the Bible, you get the year 1844. But Year 1844 is the year 1260 A.H. in Islamic calander.
as-Sajdah 32:5
That means, the Day of Ressurection was to come 1000 years after the Faith of Islam (Amr), which corresponds exactly to the year Baha'i Revelation appeared. Not 1 year less, not 1 year more.

Your entire argument about 1,000 years is flawed and by quoting it and offering it maximum space, you are displaying your ignorance of Islamic history. Islam started 13 years before the start of the Hijrah calendar. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) announced his prophethood (the start of his religion) in Mecca and stayed there for 13 years. Then he migrated to Medina and therein started the calendar which you so proudly refer to. Which means that in the year 260 AH, Islam was 273 years told and which also means that in 1260, Islam was 1273 years old! So much for your theory of 1,000 years.
Also your view on this verse contradicts the view of the Prophet and the Imams!

If you are going to make a reply, I demand you also make a reply to my last 2 or 3 posts, in this thread, and the other called "Baha'i numbers" which you have not replied. Otherwise it means you accepted them, and perhaps you want to change your website for the parts you get an answer you cannot reject (Or am I wasting my time?)

I have replied to each point. I have my sources for the numbers and in no way they match the Bahai numbers. So till that time, I will retain my view on the numbers.

In any case, I look forward to your response on each of these points.

imranshaykh

Give me the reference of the above tradition. I could not understand your point about Church Fathers.

InvestigateTruth

Not really. I did not see any direct response to my posts #113 #109 #108.
Also, not the other post in another thread.


Also, you have not provided any references for the traditions you are talking about, or that the Prophet have left any Taweel, verse by verse.

Regarding your calculation, that is wrong.
In my quote explaining the coming of the day, I was not talking about the duration of Islam from the beginning of revelation of Muhammad. I was talking about, the duration of Islam, after the flow of guidance which had ended in year 260. Add 1000 years, you get the year 1260 A.H. I agree with you that in 1260, Islam was 1273 years old, but this has nothing to do with what i was saying.

How is your math by the way?

Regarding the Book of Avalim, there is a Book with such a name from Imam Sadiq. I don't have it online or a hard copy. Perhaps that Book was well-known at that time in Persia.
However, I had quoted similar traditions from other Islamic Books, with online links.

ahanu

If you click on the quote, you will find the reference for the above tradition. According to Wikipedia: "The following narration recorded in the Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir is graded as authentic by orthodox Sunni scholars and provides a plausible explanation for the Qur'anic verse related to the substitution of Jesus."

For Christians, the Church Fathers--the successors of Christ--are the equivalent in authority to the people you see as the successors of Muhammad. In other words, for Christians, the traditions handed down by the Church Fathers are very important, and if they agree with the New Testament and the Church, they should be trusted, but what these traditions say have no importance for Imranshaykh. Imranshaykh writes:

Therefore, Imranshaykh believes the Christian tradition errs. Imranshaykh believes he can understand Christianity without the tradition passed down to the Church by the Church Fathers. However, Imranshaykh does not believe the Muslim tradition can err. What does this mean for me? For me, it means that, if religious traditions can err once, then they can err twice! Three, four, or five times! Or more!

Although the tradition is rarely presented within Islam, there is a tradition saying Jesus was crucified and physically died. See Ismai'lis.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh I have not mentioned either of the two.

Precisely my point!: selective quoting.

You claim "ALL" such groups are active, and then "prove" this by picking and choosing which ones to mention: carefully OMITTING those that are--as I pointed out--already extinct!

Hardly an honest form of debate.

bruce

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh Bahaullah made people live for this world and told them nothing about [the] hereafter.

Another palpable lie, easily refuted by quoting Baha'u'llah, and Tony has already given you multiple citations for what Baha'u'llah said on this topic!

And I myself can quote extensive passages of Baha'u'llah's about the Next Life if what Tony already gave you isn't enough!

There's this great new concept called "truth."

TRY it sometime: you'll find it a MARVELOUS experience! :-S

Bruce

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh [I]f only Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi would have read the above quote, then they would not have excommunicated their family members and close friends.

What you ignore--as usual!--is that it was THEIR OWN FAULT that these individuals were excluded!

But then, since when have the facts ever stood in your way? :-(

Bruce

imranshaykh

You asked for 1,000 years and I showed you how it does not work out to 1,000 years. You want to twist the dates so that it adds up to 1,000. But in any case, the more important point is that did the Bab offer this theory of 1,000 years? This is important. Please respond to that.

You brought 2 traditions from the book about Imam Mahdi. That's all. You ignored the other 198 traditions from that very book.

There is no book such as Avalim from Imam Sadiq. This is another instance of Bahaullah quoting some obscure tradition. Incidentally, Shoghi also brings some traditions in God Passes By which have no reference. Obviously he learnt this art from Bahaullah!

imranshaykh

Dear Lord:

You keep on faffing that you have several "proofs" that there is a spiritual return of prophets. I kept on telling you that Islam denies this completely. I gave you 4 proofs wherein Allah returned his creations - in human and animal/bird form to their original form and not in spiritual form. You have offered nothing from Islam to show that there is any spiritual return.

Your interpretation that the spirit of Jesus lives on is your own interpretation. Which again is worthless in the eyes of Islam. Islam already says that Jesus is alive in physical form on the 4th heaven and will come in physical form on the return of the Mahdi. Where is the question of proving where the body of Jesus is?

imranshaykh

Typical Bahai faffing response. Focus on the minority and ignore the majority! I put up 15 sects and you want to tell em about 2 which are extinct!

Dear Bruce, look at the larger issue - in less than 60 years, the Bahai Faith has split into so many sects - each one of which curses the other. In fact even interaction is not allowed. Since the Bahai Faith focuses so much on unity, they should first work on those who are Bahais of some form, then work on the Jews of Israel to whom they are not permitted to teach and then they should try and unite the world!

imranshaykh

You should read my web site with the spirit of Independent Investigation of Truth. Verify the references - incidentally they are all in their original languages - all of which I think are beyond you, but which I hope you will appreciate - given the effort I have taken to put it together.

Then you should read the book about the Mahdi which you quoted from. Perhaps you will see then that Bab does not meet the criteria of the Mahdi of Islam.

Incidentally, none of you guys have come back on the quotation of the Bab where he invokes the curse of Allah upon those who claim that the spirit of the Mahdi is speaking through another person! Or even on the point about no tradition in Islam from the prophet which speaks about the coming of any prophet or messenger after him. or even about the tradition of the prophet in which he says that there will be 30 liars who will claim prophethood after him. Nothing spiritual about that one? FInally, nothing at all from you guys on any of the references which I have out up on The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam