charmer

In the name of GOD almighty...


every prophet have foretold comming of next prophet.But muhammed was the last prophet for mankind and he never gave any sign of comming of next prophet coz he was the seal of prophet hood.

yes he does foretold comming to next godly man which can be his decent Imam from his progeny.it means that baha'ullah can be either Imam or messenger of Imam but he cannot be a prophet.coz Muhammed was the last prophet for mankind.

LordOfGoblins

But surely God did not seal prophethood! Does God seal the light of the sun so man might die off?

tonyfish58

Its not as simple as that There is a lot in the Koran re the return (So i am led to beleive, I will look again)

Basically Muhammad was indeed the last in the line as far as prophesy is concerned. Muhammad the Seal of the prophets brought to the end the age of Prophesy.

The Baha'i Faith started the age of Fulfillment.

I will post more

In the Qur'an this coming is called, among other names, the "Great Announcement". To the Muslims, these two great Manifestations are known as "the Imam Mahdi" and the "Messiah". The Imam Mahdi is sometimes simply referred to as "Mahdi", it being understood that it is He Who is intended. The belief in Their appearance forms the axis around which revolve some 5000 of the approximately 6200 verses of the Qur'an. The Twin Manifestations are to usher in the true interpretation of the Book, reform the entire world, establish a new era of love, unity, justice and peace amongst all nations, and cause the earth to "shine with the Light of her Lord"1, as promised in the Qur'an.

http://bahai-library.com/books/annou...t.quran/2.html

Regards Tony

arthra

Furthermore, among the "veils of glory" are such terms as the "Seal of the Prophets" and the like, the removal of which is a supreme achievement in the sight of these base-born and erring souls. All, by reason of these mysterious sayings, these grievous "veils of glory," have been hindered from beholding the light of truth. Have they not heard the melody of that bird of Heaven,[1] uttering this mystery: "A thousand Fatimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muhammad, Son of Abdu'llah, the 'Seal of the Prophets?'"

Behold, how many are the mysteries that lie as yet unravelled within the tabernacle of the knowledge of God, and how numerous the gems of His wisdom that are still concealed in His inviolable treasuries! Shouldest thou ponder this in thine heart, thou wouldst realize that His handiwork knoweth neither beginning nor end. The domain of His decree is too vast for the tongue of mortals to describe, or for the bird of the human mind to traverse; and the dispensations of His providence are too mysterious for the mind of man to comprehend. His creation no end hath overtaken, and it hath ever existed from the "Beginning that hath no beginning"; and the Manifestations of His Beauty no beginning hath beheld, and they will continue to the "End that knoweth no end." Ponder this utterance in thine heart, and reflect how it is applicable unto all these holy Souls.

[1 Imam Ali.]



These people with one hand cling to those verses of the Qur'án and those traditions of the people of certitude which they have found to accord with their inclinations and interests, and with the other reject those which are contrary to their selfish desires. "Believe ye then part of the Book, and deny part?"[1] How could ye judge that which ye understand not? Even as the Lord of being hath in His unerring Book, after speaking of the "Seal" in His exalted utterance: "Muhammad is the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets,"[2] hath revealed unto all people the promise of "attainment unto the divine Presence." To this attainment to the presence of the immortal King testify the verses of the Book, some of which We have already mentioned. The one true God is My witness! Nothing more exalted or more explicit than "attainment unto the divine Presence" hath been revealed in the Qur'án. Well is it with him that hath attained thereunto, in the day wherein most of the people, even as ye witness, have turned away therefrom.

[1 Qur'án 2:85.]
[2 Qur'án 33:40.]

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 166

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by charmer [U]Muhammed was the last prophet for mankind.

No problem, because the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not called prophets, but Manifestations of God (or Divine Messengers), different terms completely!

And the Qur'an does indeed speak of Baha'u'llah (in English, the Glory of God):

Places the name of Baha`u'llah appears in the Qur'an:

"God hath not begotten offspring; neither is there any other God with
Him: else had each god assuredly taken away that which he had created, and
some had assuredly uplifted themselves above others! Far from the glory of
God, be what they affirm of Him!"
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 23 - The Believers)

"Produce your Book if ye speak truth.
"And they make him to be of kin with the Djinn: but the Djinn have long
known that these idolaters shall be brought up before God.
Far be the glory of God from what they impute to him."
(Surah 37:16)

"He is God beside whom there is no god: He is the King, the Holy, the
Peaceful, the Faithful, the Guardian, the Mighty, the Strong, the Most High!
Far be the Glory of God from that which they united with Him!"
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 59 - The Emigration)

"128. Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the believers is he most kind and merciful.

"129. But if they turn away, Say: 'Allah sufficeth me: there is no god but He: on Him is my trust, He the Lord of the throne (of Glory) Supreme!'"
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 9)

Peace, :-)

Bruce

InvestigateTruth

The answer is very simple. At least There are 2 simple answers.

The verse of the Quran which says Muhammad is the seal of Prophets:

“Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God knoweth all things.” (Alizab – 33:40)
Answer 1:

Note that the first word is "messenger", the second word is "prophets".

How come it doesn't say, seal of Messengers as well to close the door completely and clearly? Because, God wanted to leave the door open to Messengers. Messengers shall come as promised in the Quran:


“O children of Adam! There shall come to you Messengers from among yourselves, rehearsing My signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief.” (Al A’raf – 7:35)


But some of the Islam leaders who like to hold the power in their hand forever, they told the Moslems that after Islam no messenger comes, whereas that's against Quran. Fortunately in this Age Moslems are into investigation, and can find out.

Answer 2:
After Muhammad no other messengers or prophets comes UNTIL the Day of Resurrection.

InvestigateTruth

And Regarding the Imam, It was the Bab who was the promised Imam not Baha'u'llah.

The Bab was also a Messenger of God. Like Abraham who according to Quran was an Imam as well as a Messenger of God.

hakeem

Hello Friend,

There are two points which I would like to raise with you in regards to this matter.

The first point is based on logic rather than scripture, the second is based on interpretation of scripture.

The first point I would like to raise is that Allah/God/Yahweh (whichever you prefer) is All-Loving, this is emphasised in The Torah, Bible, Quran and Baha'i scripture. We must question this, would an All-Loving God leave humanity with a final revelation? Our society is constantly changing, religion's purpose is to guide society to it's prime and peak! New laws, teachings and guidance must be sent down from the divine world if it be true that God is All-Loving! God would never leave us!

Secondly I would like to question the interpretation of the title which is given to Muhammad, peace be upon Him. The term 'Seal of the Prophets'.

The term in Arabic is خاتم اﻟﻨﺒﻴﻴﻦ‎ 'Khātim an-Nabiyīn', which literally does translate to 'Seal of the Prophets'. This does at first glance seem to affirm the finality of Quranic revelation.

Now I am sure you are familiar with the Arabic phrase محمد رسول الله 'Muhammad Rasool-Allah' (Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah)

Rasool translates to Messenger. In the Quran there is no mention of Muhammad, peace be upon Him, being 'The Seal of the Messengers' is there?

"Most Islamic commentators agree that "messenger" (rasūl) refers to those who bring a divine revelation which includes a new doctrinal system, while a "prophet" (nabī) is one who explains ethical teachings on the basis of an existing religion. Every messenger is a prophet, but not every prophet is a messenger."

Muhammad Asad, The Message of The Qur'an, 22:52, note 65

If we look at it this way, Quranic revelation explains that Muhammad, peace be upon Him, is the only prophet of Islam. There will be nobody after him who will fulfil the role of a true 'nabi' for Islam.

Baha'u'llah is also a Messenger of God (Rasool-Allah), and this in no way contradicts Quranic revelation.

imranshaykh

In Islam, there is no concept of any prophet or messenger to follow the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh).

The traditions of the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) are the guiding light for us along with the verses of the Quran. The verse of the Quran state that Mohammed is the seal of the Prophets.

Islam believes in 124,000 prophets of which 313 were messengers. It automatically follows that every messenger is a prophet, but every prophet is not a messenger.

Therefore when Allah sealed Prophethood, He also sealed Messengership. So there is no scope for any person to lay claim to the position of a divine messnger.

It also follows that Quran is the last book and Islam is the final religion of Allah. Needless to say there are verses for these. but that is for another day!

imranshaykh

Dear Hakeem, who are we to decide whether Allah will or will not send another revelation for the guidance of mankind or whether His last dispensation is good enough for mankind even today. Certainly not you and me. This will depend on whom we accept as the last prophet, messenger of manifestation. For one moment, even if you take the Holy Prophet as the final prophet and messenger, he has not even hinted that there will be someone to follow him. on the contrary, every verse of the Quran and every tradition of the prophet and of his infallible progeny (which the Bahais believe in) are contrary to this.

I will be happy to be proved wrong if you can bring some verse backed by a tradition of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which even hints of the coming of a new messenger.

Mdef

"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you,
who shall expound my signs unto you: whosoever therefore shall fear
God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they
be grieved."
Qur'an 7:35

"And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye
ceased not to doubt of the (mission) for which he had come: at length,
when he died, ye said: `No apostle will God send after him.' Thus doth
God leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt (Quran Surah
40:34)

To each age its Book. (The Thunder (al-Rad))


"And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye
> ceased not to doubt of the (mission) for which he had come: at length,
> when he died, ye said: `No apostle will God send after him.' Thus doth
> God leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt (Quran Surah
> 40:34)

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh The verse of the Quran states that Mohammed is the seal of the Prophets.

Only if you adhere to a certain narrow viewpoint of the meaning of the verse in question! Other interpretations are clearly possible and are indeed preferred by some.

Although the Qur'an contains a verse stating Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, there are in fact multiple interpretations of this which do not need to imply any sort of finality to Muhammad and His Station:

• First, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and the Seal!

• There are two different words used in the Qur'an that translate into English as "prophet." One is "nabi," which means a lesser prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos. The other is "Ras'ul," which means a major Divine Messenger such as Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah. And the word used here in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad is the Seal of the lesser prophets.

• Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

• Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" simply means "ornament" as in "Ornament of the Prophets." Nothing about an ending at all!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

armin

Besides all that others have pointed out, any fair minded person would attest that saying there will be no Prophets sent to mankind from God posits cessation of His bounty and grace and that is not the Almighty God we believe in! Had there been an end to His Prophets and Messengers it would mean that He has forsaken this universe. That would be the spiritual death of mankind after only a few generations. What a bright future would this scenario paint!

InvestigateTruth

In my view, this is a misunderstanding of the Moslem Religous Leaders. It comes from misinterpretations by Moslem Scholars from Quran, sometime after the passing of the Prophet. Then the error propagated generation after generation within the Moslem community. Now, since the Moslem Children from beginning they hear in their families, their religion is the final one, they made them to believe that, so, they have difficulty seeing beyond. It is very similar to the Idea that Jesus is the only way to Father. In my opinion, all these Ideas are made-up and traditional and did not exist in the original teachings that came from those Messengers. One of the fundamental teachings of Islam is to investigate the truth, but not just imitating from traditional beliefs. So, it seems to me this original fundamental teaching of Islam is quite forgotten within the Moslem community, just my opinion anyways...

In fact, the History has been repeating itself. We know that it's been always the case, that the followers of every religion, tend to claim their religion is the final, we see that even the followers of Joseph, claimed their religion is final:


"And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter."
Qur’án 40:34

So, it seems to me, because, the religious leaders have been always after power, after the passing of the Messenger, they started to claim their religion is the last one. Fortunately, in Baha'i Faith there is no clergy to mislead people, and our scriptures is clear that after 1000 years another Messenger comes.


In fact there is no explicit verse in Quran which indicates the finality of Islam.
For example in Baha'i Scriptures it is said in a very clear verse that there won't be a Messenger in the next 1000 years:

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor....Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies..."

The Most Holy Book, Baha'u'llah


But we cannot find a clear verse in Quran, that says no one will have a direct revelation from God anymore and If anyone claims, is a liar. Which in my openion, it means God did not want to stop future revelations. Otherwise the All-knowing God, surely could say it in a way, that there is no way, anyone can make a claim. The Moslem belief on the finality of the revelation of Muhammad is merely an interpretation, which in my openion not a correct one.

The early Moslems rejected the idea of finality of Muhammad
Ayishah, the wife of Muhammad said, seal of prophets does not mean no prophet after Muhammad. Ali was given the title of Seal of Believers, which does not mean the final believer.

imranshaykh

Dear Bruce:

Much as I respect this view, I think it is conjecture, which has little value.

Regarding the meaning of the word Khatam (seal), you should look up the Quran and see how many times the word Khatam has come and in what context. You should get the answer of whether Allah meant Seal or Ornament. if you wish you can visit my site - I have an entire article on the meaning of Khatam in the Quran.

The point is that there is a verse of the Quran (Chapter of Ahzab verse 40) and there are tens of traditions which have been captured much before the announcement of the Bab and Bahaullah - infact they go right upto the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) in which the prophet makes it clear that there is none to follow him.

You should also have an understanding of Islam and put that into perspective. Islam governs every aspect of our lives. The prophet told us how to live our lives in very aspect - how to pray, how to fast, how to dress, how to eat, even how to purify ourselves. Why would the prophet not tell us something for our salvation if there was someone to follow him? I have several verses on this aspect, but I will keep that for another day.

Secondly, you should know that the Bahai Faith follows the Shiite school of thought in the sense, it acknowledges the caliphate of 12 Imams after the Holy Prophet (pbuh). There is no tradition from any of these 12 Imams which talk about the coming of any prophet. Mind you, the 11th Imam was martyred in 260 year of migration (AH, as it is called). The Bab came 1,000 years after that. So there is no conspiracy theory about scholars wanting to hide or misinterpret any traditions.

In any case, neither the Shiite nor the Sunni school of thought advocate the coming of any prophet OR any messenger. On the contrary, all of them reject the idea.

The Bahai Faith can bring a single tradition in Islam from any source which even hints at the coming of any prophet or messenger. The Quran was revealed upon the prophet and therefore he or his successors should explain whether someone should come. Bahais are unable to produce any proof on this aspect from Islamic sources, because there was never meant to be another prophet or messenger.

imranshaykh

Dear friend:

You are mistaken - there are several verses of the Quran which talk about finality of Islam
- there is the verse which talks about the finality of prophethood
- there is the verse which talks about Islam being the chosen religion of Allah and that Allah will reject any religion other than that for this community
- there is a verse which commands that whatever the prophet gives you take it and whatever he hold you back, stay away. The prophet told us to stay away from any person who would claimed prophethood or messengers.

It is your humble opinion that it is the misunderstanding of Muslim scholars. It would be better if you cleeared the misunderstanding through the prophet of Islam or through his representatives - if you can bring just one, just one tradition which hints at the coming of a new prophet or messenger, then it would put an end to this debate.

Traditions in Islam are crystal clear about finality of prophethood till the Day of Judgement. The Quran and traditions are crystal clear about what constitues the Day of Judgement. So you are mistaken, my friend.

imranshaykh

Dear Armin, who are we to decide what Allah wants to do! In our lowly intellect, we want to believe we can second guess what Allah wants! And whether the cessation of prophethood means that Allah has forsaken this world!

Even the Bahai Faith believes that there is no new prophet for the next 1,000 years. For a moment, if we accept that as true, does that mean that Allah has forsaken the universe for the next 1,000 years?

Anyways, what you and I think is of no consequence. Let us see what the prophet told us in this aspect.

imranshaykh

If you quote me any verses of the Quran in isolation, it wont help. Please let me know the views of the prophet or his representatives in this matter. I am not looking for the view of any scholar. Just the prophet and his representatives.

There are several verses which one can quote either ways. But putting them out of context will only serve to misguide.

FYI, if you visit my site, I have an article on the first verse in which I have answered the question. If you wish, please visit and read the article. It comes under the heading of finality of prophethood -> clarification of verses.

InvestigateTruth

Well, I have discussed this subject a few times with other Moslem friends as well, and there are also good Articles on internet that addresses the Baha'i view.
Basically in my view, the completion of Religion does not mean that, revelation of God has ended. The following verses of Quran, confirms this:


For example, we see that God's favor was completed during the Age of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph:

And thus will your Lord choose you and teach you the interpretation of sayings and make His favor complete to you and to the children of Jacob, as He made it complete before to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac; surely your Lord is knowing, wise.
- Qur'an 12:6


We also see that God completed His favor through Moses:


Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
- Qur'an 6:154

So, in my view, the favour of God, which surely includes His Guidance was already completed to those people of the past. But as Quran says, every Age has it's own Book.
If those religions of the past were not completed for those people, the Question arise that how could God, left them with an uncompleted guidance. We see this would contradict with Quran.

Regarding, "Islam" in my view, by this is meant, submission to God. Islam is not Muhammadism. The Islam, which is submission to God, includes past, present and future. Islam is not just a name of the revelation that came to Muhammad.

For example Noah is a Moslem (see Quran 10:72)

Moses and His followers are called Muslims:


"And you do not resent us except because we believed in the signs of our Lord when they came to us. Our Lord, pour upon us patience and let us die as Muslims " 7:126


Likewise desciples of Jesus were called Moslems in Quran.




‘Believe in Me and on My Sent One!’ they said, ‘We believe; and bear witness we are Muslims’.” (Ma’idah – 5:111)




Question: If God renews Islam (The religion of submission) and reveals new Laws, but He chooses a new name for it, would that not be the Religion of Islam, simply because of its new name?
In my openion, Name has no contradiction, what is important is the teaching and command of God. As i quoted, for example Moses and His followers were called Moslems according to Quran, but the name of their religion was Jewish Faith.

Moreover, according to Islam, there are two promised ones.
Question: could Mahdi be a Messenger who renews Islam and brings new Laws?

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh Much as I respect this view, I think it is conjecture, which has little value.

EXCEPT, of course, that IOV it's the farthest thing from conjecture!

And I fully agree with the explanations InvestigateTruth has posted here.

You are most welcome to your opinion.

But like it or not, ours differs; and the fact that you or other Muslims don't like the fact that there have been more God-sent Divine Messengers in no way alters this fact!

I also notice that you in no way refuted the arguments I posted.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

imranshaykh

Dear Bruce:

I have nothing for or against the Bahai Faith except that it claims follow Islam and that it is the next revelation from Allah. And it does that without any proof.

Brother Investigate Truth has strung together some verses of the Quran to establish the there is some religion and I wil respond to him shortly. I dont see hwo they constitute any proof that a new messenger or prophet will come.

I keep on asking for a single tradition from the Holy Prophet and I see that you or any Bahai in the whole wide world is unable to provide (since what the past what 180 years?) Just bring one tradition. That will end the discussion.

I thought my reply was a sufficient refute to your arguments. None of your answers have any basis in Islam. We follow the Quran and the prophet and you are unable to bring anything which establishes your argument. I thought I had made it quite clear.

Just bring one tradition of the Holy Prophet in which one can even feel that he was hinting at the coming of any prophet. Why are the Bahais unable to bring that. Even Bab and Bahaullah and Abdul Baha and Shoghi and the UHJ and all the scholars in between are unable to offer one single tradition from the very prophet who you call as a Manifestation that he said that some one will follow him?

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth, you start the argument saying - In my opinion....that itself kills the discussion. You see Muslims are not really looking for your opinion....I dont know how much of the Quran you read, whether you understand the nuances of the language or even know the circumstances in which the verses were revealed. But the prophet and his successors know all of this and they are divinely inspired. Hence we refer to them and it is their opinion we are concerned about. If you are able to bring even one tradition of the prophet in which he said that someone will follow him, then that is a serious argument. The rest is conjecture.

Secondly, just stringing together some verses does not constitute an argument. Lets see what the prophet said about them. There is a rich culture of traditions in Islam. Why is it that Bahais do not accept any tradition on the finality of the prophet or dont quite any tradition. Think about it. Because all traditions in Islam reject the Bahai Faith and all of these traditions came much before the advent of Bab and Bahaullah. So there were in existence from the time of the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh).

The key element of the verses regarding Islam is that unlike the previous revelations, Allah completed His proof upon the people, said that He chose Islam, also said that He will not accept a religion other than Islam and each of these verses is supported by hundreds of sayings of the prophet and his divine successors.

But anything about the Bahai Faith in Islam. Nothing...

Just realised that you asked a question relevant to this thread - If Allah renews Islam....
Answer: Please bring for us traditions of the prophet in which he said that Islam will be renewed in the fashion you mention and that it will have a new name. There is no such tradition. Allah and His prophet informed us that Islam will remain till the Day of Judgement. The word Islam is used for the religion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and that is corroborated in traditions as well. Those who submit to the will of Allah are called Muslims. In Arabic, the root word is Sa-La-Ma (to submit). So a person who submits is called Muslim. A person who follows Islam is also called Muslim. There is a difference between the two.


Am happy to discuss about the Mahdi in Islam, but not in this thread. We should start another thread for that....But since you brought it up. The Mahdi is not a Messenger (Rasul)

To conclude, to establish that whether Islam believes in the coming of a new prophet or messenger - No and that comes from the verses of the Quran and also the traditions of the Holy Prophet.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, "There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me."

Simple. And there are atleast 30 such traditions I can quote from the Holy Prophet alone. And there are more....

Mdef

I actually did my research..
"In My Ummah, there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals),
each of whom will claim to be a prophet,
But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me."
(Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)
-This is indeed in the hadith.. PBUH

To make it clear, we Bahai's believe that he is the messenger for this day.. Not a prophet.. so verse from the quran takes effect..
-"O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you,
who shall expound my signs unto you: whosoever therefore shall fear
God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they
be grieved."
Qur'an 7:35

And to say there will be no one after The Holy Prophet (PBUH) is false..(directly taken from the hadith)

"Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)"

Mdef

fellow bahais, this person imranshaykh is the creator of

The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam

a site that claims our faith as false..

articles in this site is a utter disgrace, and is all false.. Obviously your main mission for this site is to attact us Bahais, coming up with garbage, and false claims about our faith.


Quran states there should never be any compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256).
__________________________________________________ ________________________


"The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, 288 and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated"
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

Mdef

"He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; these are the basis of the Book and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God And the stable in knowledge say "We believe in it; all is from our Lord" But none will bear this in mind, save men endued with understanding." 3:7

imranshaykh

Dear Mdef:

Before labelling my site as false, I would appreciate it if you told me what is false in the site. Till then, just because you don't like it and have no way of disproving anything, you should refrain from calling my site or anything thing else as false. Take this as free advice from me. It will stand you in good stead. In any case, Abdul Baha said that one should keep one's heart free from prejudice and ursue independent investigation of truth. Please read my web site with an open mind and free of prejudice.

imranshaykh

Dear Mdef:

Good that you brought one tradition. However it does nothing to highlight the point that Bahais make that there will be another prophet or messenger after the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh). Because it just says that prophethood will end. It does not say that there will be a new messenger. In any case, this is one tradition, there is another tradition in which the same words are used except that it ends in "I am the last in the line of prophets and no messenger will follow me"

Secondly, Islam believes in 124,000 prophets OF WHICH 313 were messengers. It follows that messengers were a subset of prophets. Every messenger is a prophet, but every prophet is not a messenger. Therefore when the Quran or the prophet says that there is no messenger after me, then automatically, it means that there will be no messenger, because being a prophet is a necessary condition for being a messenger.

Thirdly, even the verse which you have quoted, does not means and neither do traditions indicate that the chain of messengers is an unending one. Traditions which explain this verse are unanimous that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is the final messenger and prophet of Allah.

Ditto for the tradition on Jesus. Holy Prophet (pbuh) says that there will be no prophet. Where is the question of then another messenger?

imranshaykh

Dear Mdef:

It is nice to see Bahais bring up verses of the Quran. And sad to see that they quote verses out of context. Read the Tafseer (explanation) of this verses in traditions - it is explained word for word. It talks about:
1. what is the book
2. what is the meaning of muhkamat
3. what is the meaning of mutashabehaat
4. who are those who are firmly rooted in knowledge
5. what is the meaning of men with understanding

All this apart from the facts about when this verse was revealed - in mecca or medina etc. All of which will have a bearing on the interpretation of the verse. I don't think you have seen that. And hence you will always misunderstand the Quran and Islam.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) and his successors spoke about everything - everything and hence we ask for a tradition in which there is even a hint that a prophet or messenger will come.

Yes, there are two people who are awaited in Islam - the return of the Mahdi and the return of Jesus. But no prophet, no messenger.

InvestigateTruth

An example that is noteworthy is the Messiah who was promised to Jews in the Old Testament, but was not explicitly called a new Messenger. But we know Quran says Jesus was a Messenger. Likewise, the Mahdi may not have been called explicitly a Messenger, but there is no reason He cannot be. The History of Religion repeats itself.
If He is called the 12th Imam, we know an Imam can be a Messenger. Example: Abraham was an Imam and a Messenger.
With regards to the meaning of Islam, I have already explained that, it means submission to God, which is passed, present and future commands from God, but not only the revelation of Muhammad.
I think when someone says, God will not have another revelation after Muhammad, this is not according to the original teachings of Islam. We know that, no one can decide for God. If He wants to have another revelation after Muhammad He can do. There is nothing to do about it.
He already said to Moslems in Quran, if you turn back, He will replace you with another people. Moreover, there are hadithes that the Life span of People of Muhammad is 1000 years (Which is passed!)
There is another Hadith, that says, after the End of people of Muhammad, Mahdi comes.
I think the subject of Mahdi relates to this thread, since that indicates that the idea of finality of the revelation of Muhammad is not according to the original teachings of Islam.
Moreover, There are Hadithes that Mahdi comes with a new Book and a new Law.
We know that for example, Allah had asked Jews to keep the Sabbath Law, but in later revelations It was through the command of Allah, the Christians and Moslems did not need to keep the Sabbath. Likewise when It is said, Mahdi comes with a new Law, that Law has to come from God, which means a new revelation.
Moreover, as I said before, there is no explicit verse in Quran that says no other Messenger or revelation from God. You are only interpreting the verses of Quran to mean the finality of revelation of Muhammad. It is clear that, the idea of finality of the revelation of Muhammad can be repudiated.
Now, let's assume that God indeed wanted to close the revelation with Muhammad. Then it is clear that God could have revealed verses that explicitly says no other revelation in such a way that no one can repudiate, or even argue about it. I have already given an example from the verses revealed by Baha'u'llah which does close every door to another revelation for 1000 years. (It seems to me, you conveniently ignore these arguments)

InvestigateTruth

I have also seen your website a few years back. There are just too many false information in it. I would say it is a good misleading website. But once a person investigates the truth and have a deeper understaning of Baha'i Faith and Islam and other religions, then the false info becomes clear!
An example of what is false, is the finality of revelation of Muhammad, which we are discussing in this thread.

LordOfGoblins

Well if Jesus is expected in the Quran then why is there any issue?
I dont know these arguments but if Jesus is predicted to return then doesnt that settle it?
Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of Jesus so under the Quran his claim deserves scrutany..

Mdef

Obviously your objective of your site is to attack the Bahai faith.. it is full of false information..

I was reading your site claiming that "bahaullah said that he was god".. Bahaullah is not god, but he is the messenger of god for this day..(what we bahai's believe)

--This is complete false..


-Other than that I'm done on this note..

Bahaullah writes..

O ye people of the world! The Religion of God is for the sake of love and union; make it not the cause of enmity and conflict. … The hope is cherished, that the people of Bahá shall ever turn unto the Hallowed Word: “Lo! All things are of God.”—the All-Glorious Word that, like unto water, quencheth the fire of hate and rancor which doth smoulder in hearts and breasts. By this one Word shall the diverse sects of the world attain unto the light of real union; verily the Truth He speaketh, and to the Path He leadeth, and He is the Mighty, the Gracious, the Beauteous.

"Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship."

I'm done with this thread..

Peace

Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Bahais recognize there is only one God but thee. Praise be to GOD.

/thread

tonyfish58

imranshaykh

From my understanding of the scriptures, there is two way to recognise a Prophet as being true.

You can use this for Jesus, Muhammad & Baha'ullah

1) The Prophet Themselves
2) Their revealed Word

If you use this standard then you can prove the mission of each of them.

The sure way not to recognise a prophet is to follow the interpretation of the priests of the day.

a) Did any learned of the day follow Christ?
b) Did any learned of the day follow Muhammad? etc

The proof is there if you look at the life & words of Baha'ullah without any pre conceived ideas.

It is not an easy thing to do and it is entirely up to the bounty of God.

Regards Tony

imranshaykh

Dear Investigate Truth, you keep on bringing up verses without any context and without any references to any history or traditions. This is the reason why Muslims believe that Bahais misinterpret the Quran. And rightfully so. It is also the reason why Bahais are misguided for if you interpret the Quran wiithout any context, it will take you nowhere. Read the number of verses in which Allah reminds the people to follow the prophet - in which Allah commands us to obey the prophet and also those in which Allah says that none can understand the Quran except Allah, prophet and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge. Each of these verses and there are several more, Allah guides us to the prophet and his family to understand the message of Allah.

By ignoring these traditions, you will be misguided. For example, you have no way of telling me why Ibrahim was made an Imam and the event behind it. The Quran does not describe it and it happened several hundered of years before the Quran came. Now how will any one understand till the time you dont refer to the prophet for its interpretation.

And this is the style of the Quran. It talks about Salah - prayers. But the method of prayer is not mentioned in Quran. It talks about Sawm - fasting, but the rules are not mentioned in Quran. it talks about Zakat - poor rate, but the guidelines are outside of Quran.

So if you are bringing any verse, also bring some tradition. The entire thread of this discussion has been that the Prophet, rather than even hinting that a new prophet or messenger will come, has condemned the thought that a new person will come.

In traditions, all of which came before the Bahai Faith, the prophet told us of the past - of Abraham, of Moses, of Noah of Christ and several other prophets and messengers - he had debates with people of some these faiths (Judaism and Christianity) and won. Read the arguments of the prophet. Some of these are even mentioned in the Quran.

The prophet told us of the future as well - that 30 impostors will come. At no place did he say that there will be 30 impostors, but one of them will be true. He did not tell us that there is some Adamic cycle (an argument which is manufactured totally by the Bahais)

SO just bring one tradition and we can end this thread. Even on the discussion of the Mahdi, Bahais will feel the same. All traditions reject the Bab being the Mahdi, Qaem whatever. Even on the return of Christ, all traditions reject return of Bahaullah as Christ.

The beauty of all of this is that the 99.9% of these traditions came before the coming of Bab and Bahaullah. So atleast Bahais cannot claim that the cholars made these traditions up to counter the Bahai Faith!

I urge Bahais to read traditions in Islam. Read the Quran in the light of traditions. It will guide you to the truth. Till then you will keep on bringing up verses out of context.

Anyways, last 2 points. Please bring one tradition in which the prophet says that someone will come. The fact is that Bahais will not be able to bring such a tradition because there is none in Islam. If there were, then Bab and Bahaullah would have narrated it to support their claim.

Secondly, Bahaullah says in Ishraqat, page 293 in Arabic - the original page is on my site in the article "Bahai View on Finality". Bahaullah says that "Salutations and Belssing be upon Mohammed, the teacher of the universe upon whom Nabuwwat (Prophethood) and Resalat (messenger) was terminated." So you see even Bahaullah says that Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet AND the last messenger.

imranshaykh

Dear Tony:

Your understanding is of no consequence for it is not a proof or a standard to follow. It is, as you said, YOUR understanding.

A standard when it comes to Islam is what Allah revealed and what the prophet and his divine successors told us.

If you can establish any of that through the words of Allah and the relevant narrations of the prophet, then it will be a proof for us. Otherwise it is conjecture which has no place in religion.

Refer to Islam, there are several ways to recognise a prophet and messenger, an important one being that he is nominated by someone, he is able to perform miracles and his book.

In the case of Bahaullah, he was not nominated by prophet Mohammed (pbuh), his book is full of mistakes and he has no miracles to his name.

Read the history of all false prophets - all of them denied miracles (as Bahais do) because the miracles of the prophets are unparalelled - the splitting of the moon, having inanimate objects testify to their prophethood etc. These are incidents which are true and which have been established without a doubt.

But this discussion is for another day. Right now, my burning desire from Bahais is to see one tradition of the prophet or the successors of the prophet where they have said that a new prophet / messenger will come.

InvestigateTruth

imranshaykh wrote: For example, you have no way of telling me why Ibrahim was made an Imam and the event behind it.

My response: In your particular example about Abraham, it is irrelevant to discuss the events behind it. However this is said in the Quran as well as traditions that Abraham, being both Imam and Messenger. If you are knowledgeable about Islamic traditions, you can find them.
We are saying the 12th Imam can also be a Messenger and have a revelation. So, your argument here is pointless.


imranshaykh wrote: you keep on bringing up verses without any context and without any references to any history or traditions. This is the reason why Muslims believe that Bahais misinterpret the Quran.

My response: you are speaking on behalf of all Muslems? you are ignoring All those Muslems who became Baha'is, many of them were Muslem scholars.
The context of the verses also support my argument. I would not copy the whole surah for you in the thread. If you claim I am using the verses out of context, you can show in one instance how it is not related to our argument.

imranshaykh wrote:Anyways, last 2 points. Please bring one tradition in which the prophet says that someone will come. The fact is that Bahais will not be able to bring such a tradition because there is none in Islam. If there were, then Bab and Bahaullah would have narrated it to support their claim.

My response: I have already given several of them, and you should read the Book of Iqan, in case you have not. There are many traditions from Muhammad regarding the Mahdi.

imranshaykh wrote: Secondly, Bahaullah says in Ishraqat, page 293 in Arabic - the original page is on my site in the article "Bahai View on Finality". Bahaullah says that "Salutations and Belssing be upon Mohammed, the teacher of the universe upon whom Nabuwwat (Prophethood) and Resalat (messenger) was terminated." So you see even Bahaullah says that Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet AND the last messenger.

Yes, as you also noted, there was a prophetic cycle, which ended with Muhammad. The Bab started a new cycle which will last 500,000 years in which Manifestations of God appear.
Quran also confirms meeting with Lord, which can only be meeting with Manifestation of God.
There is an authentic Hadith, that humanity will meet with Allah twice, which means 2 manifestation of God. In the same Hadith it says, people are unable to recognise God when He speaks.

imranshaykh wrote: The beauty of all of this is that the 99.9% of these traditions came before the coming of Bab and Bahaullah. So atleast Bahais cannot claim that the cholars made these traditions up to counter the Bahai Faith!

All the Authentic traditions regarding the 2 promised ones are fulfilled by the Bab and Baha'u'llah
Can you bring an Authentic tradition that is not fulfilled?


imranshaykh wrote:The prophet told us of the future as well - that 30 impostors will come. At no place did he say that there will be 30 impostors, but one of them will be true.

My response: Jesus also said beware of the false prophets, but that does not mean True Messengers do not come.

imranshaykh wrote: He did not tell us that there is some Adamic cycle (an argument which is manufactured totally by the Bahais)
He may not have called it Adamic Cycle, but in practice He said the prophethood ended with Muhammad and humanity would meet with Mahdi. And offcourse Mahdi was to come with new Book. Which means He can teach and explain new things that were not said before.

LordOfGoblins

I SeE THAT MY POST WAS CONVENIENTLY IGNORED!!!!

imranshaykh

MY RESPONSE IN CAPS BELOW

imranshaykh wrote: For example, you have no way of telling me why Ibrahim was made an Imam and the event behind it.

My response: In your particular example about Abraham, it is irrelevant to discuss the events behind it. However this is said in the Quran as well as traditions that Abraham, being both Imam and Messenger. If you are knowledgeable about Islamic traditions, you can find them.
We are saying the 12th Imam can also be a Messenger and have a revelation. So, your argument here is pointless.

MY RESPONSE: HERE IS WHERE YOU ARE AT FAULT. THE EVENTS IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE POSITION OF IMAMATE WHICH IBRAHIM WAS GRANTED. HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM THE IMAMATE WHICH WAS GRANTED TO THE 12 IMAMS AFTER THE HOLY PROPHET? INDEED, I AM KNOWLEDGEABLE.

THERE IS NO TRADITION WHICH STATES THAT THE 12TH IMAM WILL BE A MESSENGER. THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF REVELATION ON AN IMAM (AS FOR PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS). THERE IS NO TRADITION WHICH STATES THAT HE WILL BRING LAWS. YES, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF TRADITIONS WHICH TELL US THAT THE STATE OF ISLAM WOULD HAVE CHANGED MUCH BECAUSE OF WHICH WHEN THE MAHDI WILL CALL PEOPLE TO THE ISLAM OF THE HOLY PROPHET, PEOPLE WILL CONTEST IT AND CALL IT A NEW BOOK. BUT THE RULES, SHARIAT, QURAN ARE ALL THE SAME AS THAT OF THE HOLY PROPHET.

BUT THE MAHDI IS A SECONDARY TOPIC. FIRST LET US SEE ONE TRADITION IN WHICH THE PROPHET OR HIS DIVINE MESSENGERS HAVE CLAIMED THAT THERE WILL BE SOMEONE TO FOLLOW THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM AS A MESSENGER. JUST LETS SEE ONE TRADITION.

imranshaykh wrote: you keep on bringing up verses without any context and without any references to any history or traditions. This is the reason why Muslims believe that Bahais misinterpret the Quran.

My response: you are speaking on behalf of all Muslems? you are ignoring All those Muslems who became Baha'is, many of them were Muslem scholars.
The context of the verses also support my argument. I would not copy the whole surah for you in the thread. If you claim I am using the verses out of context, you can show in one instance how it is not related to our argument.

MY RESPONSE: YES, I SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE QURAN AND THE TRADITIONS OF THE PROPHET. PEOPLE CAN BECOME WHATEVER THEY WANT. THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE MISGUIDED DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE BAHAI FAITH IS CORRECT. FOR EVERY ONE MUSLIM "SCHOLAR" WHO ACCEPTED BAHAI FAITH, THERE ARE PROBABLY ANOTHER 100,000 WHO DID NOT.

I AM ALLEGING THAT YOU ARE USING THE VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT. I HAVE BEEN SAYING FROM THE VERY BEGINNING THAT YOU BRING ONE TRADITION TO SUPPORT ANY OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT YOU ARE MAKING THAT YOU ARE UNABLE TO BRING EVEN ONE. JUST BRING ONE TRADITION WHEREIN THE PROPHET SAID THAT THERE WILL BE ANOTHER PROPHET AFTER THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM (PBUH) AND WE CAN TAKE THIS DISCUSSION FORWARD. YOU HAVE NOT BROUGHT A SINGLE TRADITION TO THAT EFFECT. AND I AM NOT SURPRISED. BAHAIS NEVER QUOTE TRADITIONS, OR LET ME REPHRASE THAT, BAHAIS SELECTIVELY QUOTE NOT MORE THAN 15 TRADITIONS OUT OF A MILLION BECAUSE TRADITIONS REJECT THE BAHAI FAITH COMPLETELY.

BUT THE MAHDI IS A SECONDARY TOPIC. FIRST LET US SEE ONE TRADITION IN WHICH THE PROPHET OR HIS DIVINE MESSENGERS HAVE CLAIMED THAT THERE WILL BE SOMEONE TO FOLLOW THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM AS A MESSENGER. JUST LETS SEE ONE TRADITION.

imranshaykh wrote:Anyways, last 2 points. Please bring one tradition in which the prophet says that someone will come. The fact is that Bahais will not be able to bring such a tradition because there is none in Islam. If there were, then Bab and Bahaullah would have narrated it to support their claim.

My response: I have already given several of them, and you should read the Book of Iqan, in case you have not. There are many traditions from Muhammad regarding the Mahdi.

MY RESPONSE: BAHAIS CLAIM THAT THERE IS A NEW MESSENGER. THEREFORE THE BAHAIS SHOULD BRING ONE TRADITION OF THE PROPHET WHICH TALKS ABOUT THIS. PLEASE BRING FORWARD THE IQAN. HAPPY TO DISCUSS. ALL THE TRADITIONS OF THE HOLY PROPHET AND HIS SUCCESSORS CONTRADICT THE POSITION OF THE BAB AS THE MAHDI.

BUT THE MAHDI IS A SECONDARY TOPIC. FIRST LET US SEE ONE TRADITION IN WHICH THE PROPHET OR HIS DIVINE MESSENGERS HAVE CLAIMED THAT THERE WILL BE SOMEONE TO FOLLOW THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM AS A MESSENGER. JUST LETS SEE ONE TRADITION.

imranshaykh wrote: Secondly, Bahaullah says in Ishraqat, page 293 in Arabic - the original page is on my site in the article "Bahai View on Finality". Bahaullah says that "Salutations and Belssing be upon Mohammed, the teacher of the universe upon whom Nabuwwat (Prophethood) and Resalat (messenger) was terminated." So you see even Bahaullah says that Prophet Mohammed was the last prophet AND the last messenger.

Yes, as you also noted, there was a prophetic cycle, which ended with Muhammad. The Bab started a new cycle which will last 500,000 years in which Manifestations of God appear.
Quran also confirms meeting with Lord, which can only be meeting with Manifestation of God.

There is an authentic Hadith, that humanity will meet with Allah twice, which means 2 manifestation of God. In the same Hadith it says, people are unable to recognise God when He speaks.

MY RESPONSE: ALL CONJECTURE. NO TRADITIONS TO SUPPORT ANY OF THIS VIEW. BRING ONE. JUST ONE TRADITION. PLEASE BRING THE TRADITION WITH REFERENCE OF THE BOOK, VOLUME AND PAGE NUMBER AS I HAVE DONE. SO THAT IT CAN BE VERIFIED. I HAVE SEVERAL INSTANCES OF BAHAIS CONJURING TRADITIONS (INCLUDING SHOGHI) TO PUT FORWARD THEIR PONT. ALSO BRING FORWARD WHAT THE PROPHET AND THE IMAMS SAID ABOUT WHAT IS MEANT BY "MEETING GOD" WE DONT NEED THE INTERPRETATION OF BAHAULLAH FOR THAT.

NOTWIDTHSTANDING THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF ANY CYCLE IN ISLAM, BAHAIS CLAIM THAT BAB STARTED A NEW CYCLE. PLEASE BRING FORWARD THE WORDS OF THE BAB WHERE HE HAS SAID THAT I HAVE STARTED A NEW CYCLE. NO CONJECTURE, NO POSTURING PLEASE. LETS SEE IT CLEARLY.

imranshaykh wrote: The beauty of all of this is that the 99.9% of these traditions came before the coming of Bab and Bahaullah. So atleast Bahais cannot claim that the cholars made these traditions up to counter the Bahai Faith!

All the Authentic traditions regarding the 2 promised ones are fulfilled by the Bab and Baha'u'llah
Can you bring an Authentic tradition that is not fulfilled?

MY RESPONSE: IMAM SADIQ (AS) SAYS, "IN THE QAEM, THERE ARE A SIMILARITY WITH NOAH AND THAT IS OF LONG LIFE"

THE QURAN SAYS THAT NOAH TAUGHT PEOPLE FOR 950 YEARS AND TRADITIONS SAYS THAT NOAH LIVED FOR 2,500 YEARS. THE QAEM IS THE MAHDI WHO HAS A LONG LIFE. NOT THE BAB WHO LIVED FOR LESS THAN 40 YEARS!

PLUS TRADITIONS WHICH EXIST FROM THE TIME OF THE IMAMS WHICH STATE THAT THE BIRTH OF THE MAHDI WILL BE HIDDEN LIKE MOSES. HE WILL BE IN OCCULTATION LIKE YUSUF (JOSEPH). THERE AT 100S OF TRADITIONS. BAB DOES NOT MEET EVEN ONE OF THEM.

THE CONCEPT THAT THE MAHDI WILL ETABLISH PEACE AND JUSTICE IN THIS WORLD "IN HIS LIFETIME". NOT THE BAB OF THE BAHAIS WHO CLAIMED TO BE THE MOST OPPRESSED!

TRADITIONS WHICH STATE THAT THE MAHDI WILL BE THE SON OF THE 11TH IMAM. BAB WAS NOT THE SON OF THE 11TH IMAM.

FOR NOW THESE ARE SUFFICIENT.

BUT THE MAHDI IS A SECONDARY TOPIC. FIRST LET US SEE ONE TRADITION IN WHICH THE PROPHET OR HIS DIVINE MESSENGERS HAVE CLAIMED THAT THERE WILL BE SOMEONE TO FOLLOW THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM AS A MESSENGER. JUST LETS SEE ONE TRADITION.

imranshaykh wrote:The prophet told us of the future as well - that 30 impostors will come. At no place did he say that there will be 30 impostors, but one of them will be true.

My response: Jesus also said beware of the false prophets, but that does not mean True Messengers do not come.

MY RESPONSE: YOU ARE CORRECT. BUT YOU ARE FORGETTING THAT UNLIKE JESUS WHO DID NOT SAY THAT MESSENGERS WILL NOT COME, THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM (PBUH) SAID THAT NO MESSENGERS WILL COME!

YOU CAN ONLY COUNTER THIS POINT BY BRINGING ONE TRADITION IN WHICH THE PROPHET SAID THAT A NEW MESSENGER WILL COME. PLEASE BRING FORTH THIS ONE TRADITION.

imranshaykh wrote: He did not tell us that there is some Adamic cycle (an argument which is manufactured totally by the Bahais)
He may not have called it Adamic Cycle, but in practice He said the prophethood ended with Muhammad and humanity would meet with Mahdi. And offcourse Mahdi was to come with new Book. Which means He can teach and explain new things that were not said before.

MY RESPONSE: BAHAIS ARE RELYING UPON 2-3 TRADITIONS ABOUT THE MAHDI, WHEREAS IN REALITY THERE ARE THOUSANDS WHICH BAHAIS IGNORE SIMPLY BECAUSE IF THEY EVEN BROUGHT UP THE DISCUSSION, THE BAHAI FAITH WILL COLLAPSE. THE BAB DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA OF THE MAHDI. PLEASE REFER MY ARTICLE ABOUT THE BAB V/S THE MAHDI OF ISLAM. READ MY SECTION ON THE BAB WHEREIN HE SAYS THAT HE WAS NOT THE MAHDI, BUT MOHAMMED IBNIL HASAN - THE SOM OF THE 11TH IMAM IS THE MAHDI.

BUT THE MAHDI IS A SECONDARY TOPIC. FIRST LET US SEE ONE TRADITION IN WHICH THE PROPHET OR HIS DIVINE MESSENGERS HAVE CLAIMED THAT THERE WILL BE SOMEONE TO FOLLOW THE HOLY PROPHET OF ISLAM AS A MESSENGER. JUST LETS SEE ONE TRADITION.

imranshaykh

not conveniently, but deliberately ignored. but since you have sought a response, here it is...

traditions are very clear that Jesus - Hazrat Isa in Islam will return and have described the conditions and the situation when he will return. You have conveniently ignored all of that and gone by one claim that Bahaullah is the return of Jesus. probably because you want to believe it.

But that is not the way Islam works. Read the traditions in Islam when Jesus will return - Christianity will end and the cross will be broken etc...etc. He will pray behind the Mahdi and will assist the Mahdi in spreading justice and equality in the world "in his lifetime"

Plus traditions tell us of the physical return of Jesus. Bahaullah meets none of these criteria. We do not believe in some nonsense of a spiritual return. Again simply because traditions do not speak of it that way!

Furthermore, in all these years after Bahaullah, the Bahai Faith is nowhere compared to Christianity. it is banned in most countries and forget of establishing justice, Bahais claim to be the most oppressed religion in the world and crib about 7 people who are arrested in Iran!

Read the traditions in Islam. They are clear that the Mahdi will not be under the rule of any person. Whereas Bahaullah is cribbing that he is arrested and in some prison. And the Bab is shot by the government!

I hope you have your answer that we reject the notion of a spiritual return of Jesus. We believe that Jesus will arrive in person and shatter the myths of present day Christianity.

LordOfGoblins

'convenient' for you.
the physical return makes no sense.
Since when has return spoken of in the holy books EVER been a physical phenomina. Name one instance just ONE instance of a physical return of a prophet in history.
Just ONE.
If you cant then you lose...
And I win. And I have far less knowledge than you of the Quran.