Yeshua

My dear Baha'i brothers and sisters,

I ask the Holy Spirit to fill you all with his blessings! May God kindly give you his grace for taking the time to read my posting here.

I have created this thread to reveal some fascinating things which many of you may not know regarding the theology of the early Fathers of the Christian Faith.

I know that some Baha'is do not feel the need to be knowledgeable of the Church Fathers and their Writings when conversing with Christians, however to those of you who are interested I would ask that you bear with me, for I think that you will be pleasantly suprised.

The subject I choose to speak of in this first post is "Progressive Revelation". As some of you already know, I have cast some illuminations on this subject from a Christian perspective already, in various threads, demonstrating the commonalities between the Baha'i and Christian views.

However now I want to go further: Let us plow the depths of the Early Fathers of the Church to see whether the Sacred Tradition which they witnessed too, and which came from the Apostles, bears witness also to a belief in Progressive Revelation and of what Baha'is call in English, "Dispensations" (from Protestant Dispensationalism - I believe the Arabic equivalent would be "Law"/"Shar'iah").

To begin I will look at the theology of 1) SAINT IRENAEUS


Now, let us have a look at what one of the earliest Fathers of the Church, Saint Irenaeus (2nd century AD – c. 202) had to say vis-a-vis Progressive Revelation:


"...There is one and the same God the Father and His Logos, always assisting the human race, with varied arrangements, to be sure, and doing many things, and saving from the beginning those who are saved, for they are those who love God, and, according to their age (genean) follow His Logos..."


- St Irenaeus (2nd century AD – c. 202), Early Father of the Church


Is anybody intrigued by this? Irenaeus tells us that those who are "saved" are those who love God and according to the particular time frame they find themselves to be in follow whatever particular revelation of the Logos that was and is available to them at that time or place.


EWTN (Catholic Network) has this to say about this passage:


"...We note Irenaeus speaks of the human race, of the various time periods, of various arrangements, not just of the Hebrews and the arrangement God made with them. Further, although Irenaeus was not fond of speculation, yet he wrote that those who follow the Logos are saved..."


Grillmeier observes:

"...In his [Irenaeus'] view, the incarnation is merely the conclusion in an immense series of manifestations of the Logos, which had their beginning in the creation of the world...."


To put this Father in context, he was a hearer of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of John the Evangelist or John the Presbyter (successor within the Fourth Gospel Community to the Beloved Disciple). We thus have a clear line of sucession for his teachings.

From this Father then, we must then conclude that those Christians who limit Divine inspiration only to the Jewish faith, are not in accordance with the Patristics.

In the same vein, we also read in Irenaeus:


"For the Son, administering all things for the Father, completes (His work) from the beginning to the end...For the Son, assisting to His own creation from the beginning,
reveals the Father to all to whom He wills."


And similarly:


"Christ came not only for those who believed from the time of Tiberius Caesar, nor did the Father provide only for those who are now, but for absolutely all men from the beginning, who according to their ability, feared and loved God and lived justly...and desired to see Christ and to hear His voice."


We can conclude two points from this:

1) Irenaeus makes it clear that prior to Christianity God had already instituted inumerable "ages" (Dispensations) and "varied arrangements" (religions) and that this process of Divine Revelation had "always" being going on, "from the beginning".

2) Whatever men, in whatever age or culture, followed God as he revealed himself through the dictates of their conscience, received salvation in Christ.


Now I leave it up to my Baha'i brothers to comment on this Father of the Church from the Baha'i perspective of Progressive Revelation as part of this dialogue (if any so wish, if not then I am happy to continue with other Fathers simply for the benefit of those who want to read but not comment).


(TO BE CONTINUED...)

ahanu

So what are Irenaeus' views of "manifestations of the Logos" after Christianity?

arthra

Yeshua wrote above:

Now I leave it up to my Baha'i brothers to comment on this Father of the Church from the Baha'i perspective of Progressive Revelation as part of this dialogue (if any so wish, if not then I am happy to continue with other Fathers simply for the benefit of those who want to read but not comment).

My comment:

First ...

it may be of use Yeshua to indicate what Progressive Revelation is... and how it is viewed.

Here is as succinct a defintion as I know:

To them will the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar symbolize the fundamental verity underlying the Bahá'í Faith, that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is not final but progressive.

Theirs will be the conviction that an all-loving and ever-watchful Father Who, in the past, and at various stages in the evolution of mankind, has sent forth His Prophets as the Bearers of His Message and the Manifestations of His Light to mankind, cannot at this critical period of their civilization withhold from His children the Guidance which they sorely need amid the darkness which has beset them, and which neither the light of science nor that of human intellect and wisdom can succeed in dissipating.

And thus having recognized in Bahá'u'lláh the source whence this celestial light proceeds, they will irresistibly feel attracted to seek the shelter of His House, and congregate therein, unhampered by ceremonials and unfettered by creed, to render homage to the one true God, the Essence and Orb of eternal Truth, and to exalt and magnify the name of His Messengers and Prophets Who, from time immemorial even unto our day, have, under divers circumstances and in varying measure, mirrored forth to a dark and wayward world the light of heavenly Guidance.

~ Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, p. 185

Another brief summary:

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.


You can also read a fine essay on the subject at

Progressive Revelation

Second:

Yeshua wrote:

"Let us plow the depths of the Early Fathers of the Church..."

"...if not (commenting on Iranaeus) then I am happy to continue with other Fathers"

Comment:

Maybe these would be more appreciated on a Christian Forum

Yeshua

LOL my dear Arthra at least some things never change (thats me and you!!!)

tonyfish58

Yeshua - I do think it is great that you are finding these wonderful writings from the Church Fathers. I think the more we look and read from these people, the more we see how some of them were obviously tapping in to the true Spirit of Christ and the meaning of the Bible.

Thus I do agree with Arthra It would be great to post that material on a Catholic site

It would assist to show the world that Baha'u'llah did indeed come to guide humanity unto all truth

Regards Tony

Yeshua

The Catholic Church has a doctrine known as, "The Development of Doctrine" which is similar in many respects to the Baha'i belief in 'progressive revelation'.


"...This tradition [doctrine] which comes from the Apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her..."

- Dei Verbum (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION), Vatican II