Yeshua

Holy Orthodoxy, the sister Church of the Catholic Church, received a pretty bad showing on these forums as a result of some postings from our brother Iconodule that do not truly represent the Holy Orthodox Church

The Catholic Church recognises all Orthodox saints as being Catholic saints, as well as recognising all Orthodox sacraments as being valid. Our Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Pope revere these Orthodox saints in their liturgical calendar.

One day, I pray, we shall be one Church again.

Now, here are the words of an Orthodox saint and note how close in thought to the Baha'i Faith's teaching of "the unity of religion" they are, not unlike the Catholic Church's interfaith teachings:


"...All the prophets have from the beginning cried out to my soul, imploring her to make herself a virgin and prepare herself to receive the Divine Son into her immaculate womb;

Imploring her to become a ladder, down which God will descend into the world, and up which man will ascend to God,

Imploring her to drain the red sea of sanguinary passions within herself, so that man the slave can cross over to the promised land, the land of freedom.

The wise man of China admonishes my soul to be peaceful and still, and to wait for Tao to act within her. Glory be the memory of Lao-tse, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The wise man of India teaches my soul not to be afraid of suffering, but through the arduous and relentless drilling in purification and prayer to elevate herself to the One on high, who will come out to greet her and manifest to her His face and His power. Glorious be the memory of Krishna, the teacher and prophet of his people!

The royal son of India teaches my soul to empty herself completely of every seed and crop of the world, to abandon all the serpentine allurements of frail and shadowy matter, and then in vacuity, tranquillity, purity and bliss to await nirvana. Blessed be the memory of Buddha, the royal son and inexorable teacher of his people!

The thunderous wise man of Persia tells my soul that there is nothing in the world except light and darkness, and that the soul must break free from the darkness as the day does from the night. For the sons of light are conceived from the light, and the sons of darkness are conceived from darkness. Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster, the great prophet of his people!..."

- Saint Nicholai Velimirovic (1880 - 1956), Prayers by the Lake


Lao Tzu (Taoism), Krishna (Hinduism), Buddha (Buddhism) and Zoroaster (Zoroastrianism) are all praised as teaching divinely inspired truths.

As you can see Saint Nicholai recognised three of the holy founders of the world religions regarded to be Manifestations of God in the Baha'i Faith, as being prophets of God.

Orthodox

The fathers are not perfect as you very well know Yeshua, and they can make mistakes. There are certain wise ideas in these writings and perhaps I am not completely reading and understanding the writings I have just seen now. But uneqovicably the Orthodox church does not emphatically teach these men were prophets, indeed from a historical perspective there is no reason to accept that the Budha, Who didn't acknowledge God at all as far as we can tell, something bahais desperately try to avoid saying well he didn't emphasise God. I mean God is obviously second to avoiding suffering right and escaping the Karmic cycle as Bhuda and Bahais must believe. (Im assuming Bahais actually believe what Buhda teaches).

But I am going to be clear, the mystical tradition of the Orthodox church is abhorrent to the doctrines of the bahai which essentially are gnostic in character. The Orthodox church teaches that man must achieve theosis, his body will be fundamentally changed before and after the ressurection, the bahai like hte gnostics deny the body and insist that only the spiritual is what is really important.

We differ on authority as well, the Orthodox clearly teach that the church of Christ is the Orthodox church, and Christ is not divided between different groups. The Orthodox have teh fullness of the faith and others may have a little bit (in case of the bahai I would say virutally none) and others a bit more (Ie Catholics who do not think like Yeshua).

So don't tell me I don't represent Orthodoxy. Im not perfect, and perhaps im not the best person to exposit the ideas of the church, but everyone I have said is the universal doctrine of the church and if you are going to be intellectually honest Yeshua admit this.

(Just going to put this at the end of every post, it seems that the bahai moderators have gone walk abouts because no one can sign up to the site, as the things to fill out cannot all be possibly filled out (see for yourself) so moderators or whoever is in charge, fix the wesbite.)

LordOfGoblins

So are we now to believe that heaven is a physical and not spiritual place? That is what most Christians believe these days? Or just Orthodox Christians?

arthra

I was thinking that disagreements between Christians could be perhaps taken up on a Christian Forum and maybe sorted out there...

As to the quote provided as being similar to the Baha'i Faith:

"...All the prophets have from the beginning cried out to my soul, imploring her to make herself a virgin and prepare herself to receive the Divine Son into her immaculate womb;

Imploring her to become a ladder, down which God will descend into the world..

It should be noted that Baha'is do not believe "God will descend into the world..:" God does not descend to this world..rather HIs attributes like the rays of the sun are perfectly reflected in the Manifestations of God such as Jesus..the Buddha..Krishna and Zarathustra and others:

Bahá'í writings emphasize that the "divinity attributed to so great a Being and the complete incarnation of the names and attributes of God in so exalted a Person should, under no circumstances, be misconceived or misinterpreted ... that invisible yet rational God ... however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in ... a mortal being."

Cf. Shoghi Effendi, The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh.]

(Abdu'l-Baha, Memorials of the Faithful, p. 34)

Yeshua

I think that your taking his words out of context

He is speaking about the soul becoming a ground for the divine birth of the son, a concept in Christian mysticism and also in the thought of the Islamic mystic Rumi (where he refers to us giving birth to a "Jesus" within us) which is an allegory for us purifying ourselves and denying the "self" so that we can become born anew in God. He then says that such a soul will be a Ladder, metaphorically speaking, in that he will have attained union with God.

He is suggesting that the human soul, made in the Image of God and with an eternal soul unlike animals, is capable of knowing God and indeed his soul is the point where the spiritual 'world' and the earthly world meet and unite together in harmony, like a ladder.

He's not actually talking about God literally descending. It is, ya know, a poem

And I wasn't making a theological point of contact but rather similarity in its view of world religions.

However that wasn't really the part I was talking about but rather the next part of the poem

But never mind!

It is the interfaith foum but if nobody would like to discuss similarities between the Baha'i Faith and Christianity, then so be it.

Yeshua

My dear brother Orthodox

Thank you for your post.

I apologize for offending you, it was not my intention. I do think that your attitude towards people of other religions sometimes lacks charity and does misrepresent the views of the Fathers on some areas (ie you seem to have no regard for the doctrine of seeds of the Logos, for the activity of the Holy Spirit outside of the Church, for the natural law written on human hearts) and you made an appalling statement once as to the effect of, "(to a Baha'i) you are not my brother, only other Christians are my brothers". Uh, what!?

That can easily be refuted from the Bible or the Fathers but I'll give you this instead. Archbishop Anastasios:

"...Being created in the image of God, every human being is our brother and sister..."


That is one example which I am referring too.

Nevertheless I have no doubts about your dedication to Orthodoxy, which is admirable, even if I think it need not manifest itself in offense towards others. We can preach the truth in charity, and we can also listen, and look for the Holy Spirit active in other religions rather than simply condemn and look for faults in other religions.

Which one did Saint Paul adopt on Mars Hill?

You might be interested in these views from two Fathers:


"...Greek philosophy is a clear image of truth, a divine gift to the Greeks. Before the advent of the Lord, philosophy helped the Greeks to attain righteousness, and it is now conducive to piety; it supplies a preparatory teaching for those who will later embrace the faith. God is the cause of all good things...The way of truth is one. But into it, as into a perennial river, streams flow from all sides...God is the Teacher, who instructs the enlightened Christian by mysteries, and the faithful labourer by cheerful hopes, and the hard of heart with His keen corrective discipline; so that His providence is particular, public, and universal... for He is the Saviour not of these or those, but of all...Should it be said that the Greeks discovered philosophy by human wisdom, I reply, that I find the Scriptures declare all wisdom to be a divine gift...Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Sramanas among the Bactrians; and the philosophers of the Celts; and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour's birth, and came into the land of Judaea guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sramanas, and others Brahmins..."

- Saint Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 - c. 220), Early Catholic Church father

St Clement of Alexandria, in the 2nd century CE, had high praise for Buddha:


"...Among the Indians are those philosophers who follow the precepts of Buddha, whom, on account of his extraordinary sanctity, they have raised to divine honours..."

— Saint Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), Book I, Chapter XV


St Justin Martyr (103–165) lauded and reverenced the great Greek philosophers as genuine prophets:


"...We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them..."


Of Plato Justin wrote:


"...Well done, Plato! Thou hast touched on the truth...Whence, O Plato, is that hint of the truth which thou givest?...let it not be this one man alone--Plato; but, O philosophy, hasten to produce many others also, who declare the only true God to be God, through His inspiration...For the knowledge of God, these utterances, written by those we have mentioned through the inspiration of God..."


Yes, Plato is described as being inspired by God. From his writings we learn also that Clement of Alexandria came to faith after a personal search for philosophical truth that had led him on a good many travels. Clement led the catechetical school and many believe his writings were used in the training. It is clear that Clement followed in the philosophical mindset of Philo. He quotes or alludes to Plato hundreds of times. For Clement, Plato was the Moses of the Greek world, revealing the truth of God through his philsophical insights.

So you see they took a different view of other religions from you and so do many modern Orthodox such as the Saint quoted above and Hieromonk Damascene, I refer you to this book you perhaps are already aware of: Amazon.com: Christ the Eternal Tao (9780938635857): Hieromonk Damascene, Lou Shibai, You-Shan Tang: Books

And in no way have any of these great men undervalued the singular truth of Christianity, and of Christ in recognising the seeds of the Word and the action of the Holy Spirit in other religions and in cultures throughout the world.

Yeshua

Not quite brother Lord



"...Heaven is not a place and cannot be found on a map; rather it is where God's will is done..."

- Pope Benedict XVI


Heaven is God, not an imaginary place, Pope Benedict says


Quote:

"...Heaven is not an abstract idea or an imaginary place, but heaven is God, Pope Benedict XVI said.

Celebrating an early morning Mass Aug. 15, the pope said the feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary "urges us to raise our gaze toward heaven, not a heaven of abstract ideas nor an imaginary heaven created in art, but the true reality of heaven which is God himself. God is heaven."..."


Heaven is God. It is not a place it is simply the Beatific Vision. It is a state of being. You can't have a physical place where there is no physical space. It is a state in which we have abandoned self-will and live in union with God's Will.

Heaven is not a "physical" place nor even a place at all (it is beyond place and time as we know it, since it is simply the Presence of God and a state of union with God). In Heaven our soul has become one with God. It is not a physical reality at all.

However this is separate from the idea of Resurrection of the Dead, which I think is what has confused you.

I will warn you: we shouldn't dwell on this area too much since it is a point of disagreement between Judaism, Islam, Christianity and Zoroastrianism on the one hand and the Baha'i Faith, Buddhism and Hinduism on the other. Baha'is do not interpret the Resurrection of the Dead in this way, but rather as the coming of a New Manifestation of God and a spiritual and temporal rising from ignorance to the light of a new revelation.

I don't want to get up Arthra's nose so I'll not dwell on this for long

The latter doctrine does posit, at the end of time itself, a physical dimension to the afterlife but not physicality as we know it, rather glorified matter in which "God is all and in all" to use Saint Paul's words. It is not like earth with, necessarily, hands, feet, fields - no actual "places". Let me explain why and how (its a little complex but I'll try despite the fact that its out of my depth).

Hell is also not a place but a state of being:


"...The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy...[It is] a condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life...The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II (General Audience, July 28, 1999)


Hell is not a "place". There is no spatial place in time and space were dwell "damned people". That is a figment of cultural myth and popular folklore rather than of dedicated theology. Hell is considered by Catholicism to be a "state of being", a mental and spiritual state. It can occur both in this temporal life and in the afterlife for eternity.


"...We must see that hell is not an object that is 'full' or 'empty' of human individuals, but a possibility that is not 'created' by God but in any case by the free individuals who choose it..."

- Hans Urs von Balthasar (1905-1988), Catholic theologian


We create hell and choose it for ourselves.


"...Heaven is untouched by time and place. Corporeal things have no place there, and whoever is able to read the scriptures aright is well aware that heaven contains no place. Nor is it in time...Nothing hinders the soul from knowing God as time and place. Time and place are fractions, and God is one...Whatever I know to be God's will - the longer, the better, and the greater the pain, the greater the joy. For to do God's will is heaven, so the longer the will lasts, the longer the heaven, and the greater the pain from God's will, the greater the blessedness..."

- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic, theologian and Dominican priest


"...Incorporeal things [ie spirits] are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us..."

- Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274), Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1, Doctor of the Catholic Church


"...We speak of hell, of purgatory, and of heaven...God is in all things and all things are in God...Hell is nothing but a state. Whatever is anyone's state of being [here on earth] remains their being for all eternity, if they are found in this state [when they die]...The people who adhere to their creatureliness must remain in that mode of being which is called hell. In the same manner the ones who do not let anything else but God reside in their being retain their being as it is. God becomes their being...One says of Judgement Day that God will preside over it. One also says that he will give judgement. That is true. But it is not the way people envision it. Every human being judges himself; as he appears there in his being, so will he remain. Now many people say that the body will rise with the soul. That is true. But it is not the way people understand it...The being of the body joins the being of the soul which then becomes one being...You should know that their misery lasts eternally...Yet the people who stand in the divine presence remain untouched. When their souls separate from the bodies they remain in the being of the divine presence to the extent to which they have known and loved God. After Judgement Day the being of the body and the being of the soul become one being in the divine presence...[Of Mary whose body went to heaven with her soul, it says:] God let happen [to her] what should happen [to her] on Judgement Day. He did it out of fitting love...Thus, with divine help the soul's being took with it the being of the body and was elevated...the being of the body which would have followed the soul on Judgement Day..."


- The Sister Catherine Treatise (written 1300s AD), Catholic mystic [of Eckhart School]


Reflect on this from the Sister Catherine treatise of the 1300s:


"...Nothing can be in God but God. There is neither mouth, nor nose, nor hand, nor foot, nor any created parts that belong to the body...God let happen [to Mary] what should happen [to her] on Judgement Day. He did it out of fitting love...Thus, with divine help the soul's being took with it the being of the body and was elevated...The body which should have died on earth was carried away in the air [that is]....the being of the body which would have followed the soul on Judgement Day..."


As concerns the Resurrection, Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that at some point, how we know not, human beings will receive new bodies. Matter will be redeemed from sin, and we will exist for eternity in a state of union with God in a glorified body not bound by the limitations of space.

Jesus' Body and Blood are fully present in the Eucharist -according to Catholics and Orthodox - and yet he doesn't appear to us there with eyes, a nose, hands, feet etc. because glorified bodies although real bodies are not bound by physical limitations. So although they are capable of having noses, eyes, ears and visible body parts defined by physical limitations within time-space - they don't have to if they don't want too.

The glorified, resurrection body is not bound by physical limitations and does not need space or time to exist as a real body, even though it is just as real and corporeal as ours, indeed more so.

Our bodies are limited to, within and by space-time. The glorified body is not at all limited by the confines of space-time but has indeed transcended it altogether and become like God, who exists in the Eternal Now beyond all space and time.

The glorified body is just that, glorified. It is free of all limitations allowing it to exist without the need for a physical place or even a physical appearance.

We are persons created as a unity of body-spirit.

We are essentially creation that has become fully aware of Itself and gifted with the ability of transcending the corporeal world and rising up (metaphorically speaking) to God. We are the point of intersection between God and creation, being made in his Image. Christians believe that the material universe is destined to be renewed and return to God again, so that God will be all in all. In this way, we believe that we will at some point in God's infinite plan of creation, receive new GLORIFIED bodies not bound by physical limitations, in an eternal state of oneness with God where matter and spirit will be one whole, rather than matter being subjected to corruption and sin.

We are not created to be spirit beings, but beings composed of matter and spirit where there is no conflict between the two as there is now.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins So are we now to believe that heaven is a physical and not spiritual place? That is what most Christians believe these days? Or just Orthodox Christians?

Some Christian churches agree literally and exactly with the Baha'i teaching that Heaven and hell are spiritual conditions of nearness to and remoteness from God.

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Yeshua

Heaven and Hell are indeed spiritual conditions and not places Heaven is simply put a state of union with God, which we Catholics have called since around the fourth century AD, in the Latin west, the "Beatific Vision" or seeing God (with spiritual eyes), being in his Presence for all eternity.

Where Christianity in general and the Baha'i Faith would differ is in the understanding of the Resurrection of the Dead. Islam, Judaism and Zoroastrianism fall into this category as well.

Yeshua

BTW I perhaps was a little to quick in the naming of this thread, it should have been, "Eastern Orthodoxy actually has similarities with the Baha'i Faith".

Not "very" similar That was a little too far, maybe.

All I wanted to demonstrate is that faithful adherence to the Orthodox faith need not lead one to exhibit a degree of intolerance and disrespect towards the spiritual wealth and worth of other religious traditions. Many Fathers, theologians and saints from the Orthodox tradition have been complementary of inspired elements and teachings of other religions, whilst never undermining the truth of Orthodoxy.

LordOfGoblins

Ok all that stuff about the glorified body. Saying it is free of space and time etc but it is corporal. Does it exist in the physical world or in heaven?? Where does the explanation come from though?? Is it supported in the bible? Orthodox mentioned it would be a physical body free from disease before so I am not sure he agrees with all those descriptions even though they sound almost like a soul from what I read of what you wrote...

Yeshua

My dear brother Lord

I apologize for the complexity but theology is a rather complex "beast". Its not simple or easy to describe, and as you know simple language doesn't come naturally too me (we have conversed long enough on Baha'i Forums for you too know that, I am sure)

However I will try to crystallize it all in brief form:

- Heaven is not a place
- Heaven is a state of being, a state of union with God. Heaven is where God's will is done.
- Heaven is the presence of God
- It is a purely spiritual state
- However Christianity also believes like Islam, Judaism and Zoroastrianism in the concept of 'resurrection of the dead' which means that at some point we will receive new, glorified, spiritual bodies of real matter - of physicality - but this need not mean physical form, or nose or hands or feet and certainly need not mean a physical afterlife coming into existence in an infinitely distant future.
- Heaven will still be a state for Roman Catholics and at least some Orthodox, even with glorified resurrection bodies. To understand how this can be you would have to read above again, since I can't explain this in condensed terms.

LordOfGoblins

Sorry ignore that first post. I hadnt read all you wrote so it was written without reading your full post cos its too long.

LordOfGoblins

Well FYI. saying we come back to this world and we are at the same time in literal heaven is nonsense.
(:
Jesus said he was in heaven when he was on earth, but he just is describing his spiritual state being that of heaven. HE WAS LITERALLY ON EARTH IN A NORMAL HUMAN BODY.
AND WHEN HE DIED HE LITERALLY went to spiritual heaven where the rest of you will go.
Now if you want to claim a resurrection either you are resurrected in the physical world or the spiritual world or another dimension that we do not yet know about which is both physical and spiritual and is not described in the bible or Islamic writings. AM I wrong? Glorified body or not glorified body is irrelevent..

Yeshua

Our brother Orthodox may have a different understanding from the Catholic position, however I do know that there are Orthodox who share the understanding of Roman Catholicism because I have spoke to them. The concept of a ressurection body might not be as tightly defined in Orthodoxy, for all I know, as it is in Catholicism (we are much more hierarchical and scholastic in our thinking, that is simply the Latin way).

I can only speak from the Catholic position of heaven being a state of being and not a place and so explain from there how the resurrection fits into it.

A Brother who is high up in the Franciscan Order explained this rather well on CAF once.

It stems from Saint Paul's description of the glorified resurrection body in the Bible, as well as descriptions of Jesus' resurrection body which could eat and drink but also assume different forms, pass through walls etc. so it wasn't defined by physical space or time nor did it need to have a physical "form". In addition, we have the teachings of the Fathers, the development of this doctrine by the scholastics, saints and theologians down the centuries up to the modern magisterium.

Jesus' Body and Blood are fully present in the Eucharist - and yet he doesn't appear to us there with eyes, a nose, hands, feet etc. because glorified bodies although real bodies are not bound by physical limitations. So although they are capable of having noses, eyes, ears and visible body parts defined by physical limitations within time-space - they don't have to if they don't want too.

I will quote for you some portions from the Franciscan man who spoke to me a few years back, here is what he said:

LordOfGoblins

And when I say nonsense I dont mean to put peoples beliefs down. I really mean it in the literal meaning of the word that it 'makes no sense'- nonsense.
Not as in- what you believe is worthless and I am better.
Just that it has to stand up to a form of reason if it is true.

arthra

Your thread is suggesting "real" eastern orthiodoxy is very similar to the Baha'i Faith...so you pose as an expert on eastern orthodoxy and Baha'i faith at once while being a Catholic...

Spiritually there are similarities because they have a common Divine Origin but as you know we Baha'is don't accept the creedal statements or dogmas associated with the churches.

Yeshua

I understand

TBH though people could probably say that about the idea of an immortal soul, or in some religions a "spirit world".

One Baha'i site says this:

Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own

If it is timeless and placeless, then that is very akin to the Catholic understanding of heaven as a timeless, placeless "state".

So we do at least seem to agree on that even if we cannot on resurrection of the body (for obvious reasons).

Yeshua

Yes and this thread was not about the creedal statements or dogmas but quite simply recognising "the common divine origin" as you say of different religions, from the viewpoint of an Orthodox saint.

Also, I am no expert on anything, but why it is wrong in your mind to try and discern commonalities between different religions and perceive the action of the Holy Spirit is beyond me.

The Orthodox saint quoted above expressed a very respectful understanding of the spiritual worth of other world religions which I thought was similar to the Baha'i Faith. And I felt like sharing this so that the Baha'is of this forum did not receive a jaundiced opinion of Orthodoxy based upon one poster's views that might lead them to think Orthodoxy was intolerant of other belief systems.

For some reason, you seemed to see what I wrote differently? What is wrong with this? It is the interfaith part of the forum and are you suggesting I don't have a right to suggest similarities simply because I'm not a Baha'i?

Orthodoxy is considered by my Church to be a catholic church and we recognize all Orthodox saints, sacraments, theologies, liturgies, customs etc. and our Eastern Catholic Churches are Orthodox in terms of their liturgy and theology while being in communion with Rome.

So its not like I'm speaking about a different religion when I'm talking about Orthodoxy

LordOfGoblins

@@
A scientist might call the idea of a spiritual world nonsense. Thats not what I meant though...

What I mean is- saying someone dies then goes to heaven but is reincarnated physically in heaven is nonsense if heaven is a spiritual world.
Heaven is physical if the glorfied body returns to the physical plane.
Heaven is spiritual if the glorified body goes to a spiritual place.
In other words. There are two dimensions described in the holy writings and that is spiritual realm and physical realm.... Which is why the idea of a glorified spiritual body reincarnated in the physical realm doesnt make sense to a Bahai. Well from my perspective...

Yeshua

I get what your saying brother I understand why it would appear to be "nonsense", however I am not desirous to change your mind or anything since its simply a difference in our religions.

One thing I would say is that it isn't "reincarnation". The idea of reincarnation makes me think of the Eastern religious concept of transmigration, which is completely rejected by Christianity.

We believe that the new, glorified body will bear some relation to the old body that disintegrated upon our death. In some manner known only to God, it will be composed of the same constitutions of the body we possess now, either through re-creation of it by God or some other means. Not the same atoms or maybe even DNA but it will bear a relation to our body, such that it will not be a new person as in reincarnation, although it will not be a corruptible body of mortal flesh but rather one that is eternal.

It will be our body - as in you as a person right now, not a new person, not assuming a new identity, mind, brain etc. as happens in the Eastern conception of reincarnation (transmigration of souls).

However it will not be like the body we have now, since it will be created fit to last for eternity, to exist beyond space or time and need not take on a physical form. It will be matter liberated from the shackles of time and place, a fully spiritual body yet also material, but glorified material. God will be all in all.

The glorified body will be even more a part of you than your human body is now; because the body (pneumatikon soma) will never again be separable from your psyche or mind. You will be fully spiritual, and fully body. You will think with your body, and move and breathe with your mind. Your human soul, which formed with the body, is the pattern for the body. The soul will form the body around "its" self. With or without the DNA. The body will be a spiritual body, of real matter, but glorified and moved by the spirit. Since we will not have an intact dead body to go back into, our bodies will be at the same time reassembled and transformed anew fit for an eternal state. The Biblical term for this is pneumatikon soma, spiritual body.

So its not reincarnation, that was not actually what I meant by "new".

It is a difference between our faiths, and indeed between the Baha'i Faith and Islam, Judaism and Zoroastrianism which have a similar doctrine of resurrection of the dead only that theirs is actually somewhat more "corporeal".

arthra

Maybe it's your approach Yeshua that seems uhh sometimes patronizing

such as

"The Orthodox saint quoted above expressed a very respectful understanding of the spiritual worth of other world religions which I thought was similar to the Baha'i Faith. And I felt like sharing this so that the Baha'is of this forum did not receive a jaundiced opinion of Orthodoxy based upon one poster's views that might lead them to think Orthodoxy was intolerant of other belief systems."

So you're protecting us from some one who was a self appointed rep of orthodoxy and you want us to be well informed about it...there's really no need for that... I think many of us already have formed our own opinions on the subject ..there was even a Baha'i who used to post here who was a former Orthodox Christian and she knew very well what was going on.

Yeshua wrote:

"For some reason, you seemed to see what I wrote differently? What is wrong with this? It is the interfaith part of the forum and are you suggesting I don't have a right to suggest similarities simply because I'm not a Baha'i?"

Just don't misrepresent us... You're a Catholic..well and good but don't suggest there are similarities and quote a Saint about God descending to the earth even if it is poetic ...It's simply a concept we don't accept.

If you and orthodox have issues about your Christianity this probably isn't the best place to work them out.

Yeshua

Yes I remember Penny she was a lovely soul, I do hope she is keeping well

Well Arthra, as always we don't seem to "get" each other. You think I appear patronizing, and I feel that you sometimes appear to be looking for ways to "catch" me out or reprimand me etc. often without, to my mind, just cause. And as always I remain mystified by your actions towards me which as usual I perceive as unwarranted.

That's just life I suppose

I bid you good day and rich blessings in the Lord.

Orthodox

Mr Goblin, no one Is saying heaven is physical, the bossom of Abraham is not physical but our life after the final judgement and resurrection will be physical, as God always intended it. This is why Christianity has been against Gnosticism (and hence why I think bahai feel sympathetic for gnostic doctrines and are basically an inheritance of that old greek idea of the flesh = bad, the spirit equals = good, if not absolutely, at least implicitely.).

Now Yeshua, the fathers and scripture warn us not to speak when we are ignorant, and thus I warn you now, you have completely distorted my position on everything.
One, I am not charitable towards the bahai because I see little reason to be, there is time for charity and times for no charity. I am harsh with them, but I do not try to be cruel or demeaning only point out the inconsistencies in their flawed faith.
That being said I recognize God can and does influence those outside the church (Even the catholics I think have some grace (not all, God forbid) from God). Natural law is written on the hearts of everyone, but that doesn’t make one perfect, and the faith doctrinally and practically are far from perfect, their worship lacks divinity and their doctrine lacks truth.
That being said, the bahais are not brothers, at least not brothers in the same league as those in the church are, even your own church would say this as to the orthodox, we are not equally brothers because we have apostacised right? We have abandoned true Christianity right? Thus we are lesser? We have to be honest here Yeshua and not be Unitarian Universalists or Episcopalians.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshua One thing I would say is that [resurrecton] isn't "reincarnation". The idea of reincarnation makes me think of the Eastern religious concept of transmigration, which is completely rejected by Christianity.

The Baha'i Faith similarly rejects reincaration; indeed, in case you've never seen it, there's a whole chapter in Some Answered Questions explaining why!

Peace, :-)

Bruce

Yeshua

My dear brother Orthodox

In 2010 Pope Benedict XVI said, "Despite the differences, Muslims are our brothers".


That doesn't change the fact that the "differences" are significant and many.


The Catholic Church does not view Orthodox Christians as "not equally brothers" with us nor do we think that you have abandoned true Christianity or "apostasized".

From pre-Vatican II times:


"...Catholics are sometimes lacking in a right appreciation of their separated brethren, and are even wanting in brotherly love, because they do not know enough about them. People do not realize how much faith, goodness, and Christianity there is in these bodies...The ancient Christian bodies of the East keep so venerable a holiness that they deserve not merely respect but complete sympathy..."

- Pope Pius XI, 1927 (cf. Radio Replies, Volume 2, pp. 76).


Brotherly love? Complete sympathy?

And that's from a Pope who was opposed to the ecumenical movement

Here is what the modern Catholic Church officially teaches about Orthodox:


"...Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy..."

- Dominus Iesus

I want you to read this part of Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Some Aspects of the Church Understood as Communion, May 28, 1992, 17. which was produced by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith by Cardinal Ratzinger (Now Pope Benedict Xvi) referring to the Orthodox Churches:


"Indeed, 'through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature', [24] for in every valid celebration of the Eucharist the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church becomes truly present"


Through the Eucharist, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church IS TRULY PRESENT IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES.

We also accept all your saints as being equally Catholic saints, recognize all your sacraments and on our end see no impediment to celebrating the Eucharist with you, however Orthodox don't reciperocate this (yet) so we cannot.

This is distinguished from how we view Protestant Christians, who are still equally our brothers but do not have the fullness of truth that is preserved in Orthodoxy:


Secondly you will note that Dominus Iesus says even of validly baptized Protestant Christians:

"On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church." (no. 17)


The only wound that the Catholic Church would see in Orthodoxy is its lack of communion with Rome, however that is because the Orthodox have a different understanding of ecclesiology from the Latin West - one which we actually both had when we were one Church!

And so the Catholic Church certainly does not see this difference in ecclesiology as making you any less Catholic than we are, in terms of you been equally brothers with us. It is rather an ecclesiological difference between East and West that needs working out between our Bishops.

On the ground-level I don't view you any differently from an Eastern Catholic brother in communion with the Pope. I think its regrettable that were not in full communion, but it doesn't affect how I view you at all.

So yes, Orthodox are in a priviliged, special position in Catholic eyes however that does not mean that we reject the common brotherhood of humanity and discriminate between human beings made in the Image of God and called to eternal life simply because we believe that you have the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and Baha'is don't!

According to Catholic doctrine all men are brothers and sisters regardless of faith - and I'm not going to disagree with the Magisterium of my Church!


"...What a wonderful vision, which makes us contemplate the human race in the unity of its origin in God...This divine law of solidarity and charity assures that all men are truly brothers, without excluding the rich variety of persons, cultures and societies..."

- Pope Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus (On the Unity of Human Society) October 12, 1939


"...For those who believe in God, all human beings, even the least privileged, are sons of the universal Father who created them in his image and guides their destinies with thoughtful love. The fatherhood of God means brotherhood among men: this is a strong point of Christian universalism, a common point, too, with other great religions and an axiom of the highest human wisdom of all times, that which involves the promotion of man's dignity..."

- Pope Paul VI


"...On behalf of my outraged Christian conscience, I raise my voice in protest [against the treatment of Jews], and I assert that all men, Aryans and non-Aryans, are brothers because they have been created by the same God; that all men, whatever their race or religion, have the right to be respected by individuals and states. The present anti-Semitic pressures flout human dignity and violate the most sacred rights of the human person and family..."

- Bishop Pierre-Marie Theas




In 1916, in the midst of the First World War, American Jews petitioned Pope Benedict XV on behalf of the Polish Jews. To this the pontiff responded in a private letter, also published in the Jesuit journal "Civilta Cattolica", denouncing antisemitism:

The Supreme Pontiff.... as Head of the Catholic Church, which, faithful to its divine doctrines and its most glorious traditions, considers all men as brothers and teaches them to love one another, he never ceases to indicate among individuals, as well as among peoples, the observance of the principles of the natural law, and to condemn everything that violates them. This law must be observed and respected in the case of the children of Israel, as well as of all others, because it would not be conformable to justice or to religion itself to derogate from it solely on account of divergence of religious confessions



"...All of humankind is but one family, dispersed over the face of the whole earth; all men are brothers, and ought to love each other as such. May shame and infamy overtake those impious wretches who seek a cruel unnatural glory in the blood of their brothers, which is their own blood...All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers..."

- Archbishop François Fénelon (6 August 1651 – 7 January 1715) (Let. 30), Catholic mystic


And we believe in treating everyone with the same love and affection:


"...[Many non-Christians are] ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace; because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all...God forbid, then, that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith [non-Christians]. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation...”

- Blessed Pope Pius IX (QUANTO CONFICIAMUR, August 10, 1863)


**** Blessed Pope Pius IX is quite apropriate to quote here since he is the Pope that Baha'u'llah wrote a tablet too ****


“…I want to accustom all the inhabitants, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and nonbelievers, to look on me as their brother, the universal brother. Already they’re calling this house “the fraternity” (khaoua in Arabic) — about which I’m delighted — and realizing that the poor have a brother here — not only the poor, though: all men…Above all, always see Jesus in every person, and consequently treat each one not only as an equal and as a brother or sister, but also with great humility, respect and selfless generosity…”

- Blessed Charles de Foucauld (1858- 1916), Catholic mystic and martyr


And whether you believe it or not, Holy Orthodoxy teaches exactly the same as Catholicism in this respect.

Yes Baha'is are not united to Catholics by "the same bonds of faith", to quote Pope Pius IX, but they are united to us by the same bonds of humanity, the same blood, the same DNA, the same grace from God, the same Image of God which makes us all one and the same common search for truth in the Holy Spirit. Thus all human beings are equally brothers and sisters.

You could say that we have a special brotherhood in Christ united by common bonds of faith in addition to the common brotherhood of man, which is of course what God desires of all mankind, however this does not nullify in any way the common brotherhood of all humanity, nor the fact that we are all equally brothers and sisters before God even if we lack the fullness of truth.

Brotherhood in the Body of Christ should not make us feel like we are some kind of closed "cliqué", since afterall all human beings are somehow or other related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer from which they receive salvation even when they are outside the Church. Whether by explicit or implicit desire many non-Christians are spiritual members of the Church.

I'm going to quote from an ultra-traditionalist Catholic authority, the founder of SSPX - a branch of traditional Catholicism that was excommunicated from the Church in the 70s for its extreme views and is now, slowly, being welcomed back again although with qualifications:


"...There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit...The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church..."

- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics)


I am pleased nonetheless that you recognise that grace is given outside the Orthodox Church. In 1713 Pope Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist heretic Quesnel that "no grace is given outside the Church" just as Pope Alexander VIII had already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: "Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ".


And so we find that one of the greatest Catholic mystics, Blessed Jan Van Ruysbroeck could write:


"...Now mark this: God being a common good, and his boundless love being common to all [...] his grace is common to all men, whether Pagan or Jew, whether good or evil. By reason of his common love, which God has towards all men, he has caused his name and the redemption of human nature to be preached and revealed to the uttermost parts of the earth. Whoever wishes to turn to Him can turn to Him [...] Thus God is a common Light and a common splendour, enlightening heaven and earth and every man, each according to his need...The light of divine grace, which makes man pleasing to God, and through which he merits eternal life, is offered to all men...The image of God is found essentially and personally in all mankind. Each possesses it whole, entire and undivided, and all together not more than one alone. In this way we are all one, intimately united in our eternal image, which is the image of God and the source in us of all our life. Our created essence and our life are attached to it without mediation as to their eternal cause..."

- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic


BTW I was thinking of converting to Orthodoxy at one point, and still harbour a certain attraction to Eastern liturgy and theology, so I am not as dim as you might think even though I know you consider me to be "liberal" even when I am not

arthra

Once again Yeshua..Orthodox.. I'd urge you guys to find another venue to work out your issues...this probably isn't the best place. Try a Christian forum somewhere..there are plenty of them!

Orthodox

Now despite all your quotations the facts cannot hide the actual position of your church, which is one that says the fullness of faith lies in the roman catholic church, as the head pontiff and vicar of Christ to be in full communion with Christ on earth is thus to be obedient to the Pope of Rome. The Orthodox reject this and thus we are not on the same level as roman catholics are to each other. You should be honest with your world view.
That being said, open communion will never be put in practice till the Patrairchs say the Pope is above them will it? And you know this.
We must be honest here and not hide what the churches teach. The Orthodox are in error to the Roman catholics and must accept the Bishop of Rome being their authority by which all things are to be mediated. This cannot be avoided.

arthra

Why here though orthodox..why do ya guys need to do it here?

tonyfish58

I for one will not do it with them

Baha'u'llah could not make it any easier for humanity to make an informed decision, that's for sure.

Cheers Tony

Yeshua

The problem is that he keeps continuing and I feel the need to reply to him to or else he'll think that he's "got me" (when he hasn't)

I agree its the wrong place to discuss these issues but Orthodox has made the thread go completely off topic - I never intended this to become a Christian debate!

For the first time Arthra I am fully agreed with you but don't know what to do Maybe I should PM him?

Oh lordie.....

Yeshua

Brother Orthodox,

I will try and keep this conscise and if you wish to debate further then please PM me instead and I will gladly continue because as Arthra has pointed out the discussion we are now having has absolutely nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith but is rather a question of Orthodox-Catholic ecumenical relations

This is not exactly of interest to Baha'is, and I encourage them to overlook this post since it is directed solely to Orthodox.

I am honest with my worldview. The one you are expressing is more consonant with the official Catholic position in the 19th century, which greatly respected Orthodoxy, recognised the validity of its sacraments and so on BUT adhered fully to the Latin understanding of papal primacy and believed that for re-unity Orthodox must embrace it as with the Uniates.

Since Vatican II this has changed and - believe it or not - the view I am expressing is the official one.

The Catholic Church is in the process of trying to figure out a model of the papacy that could be embraced by Orthodox so as to re-create full - in practical terms - unity, that is a common celebration of the Eucharist. Two popes have suggested a return to a first millenium model of papal primacy.

There are problems, mostly how one interprets Vatican I, but I can asure you that we are not desirous in any way to repeat the errors of the Council of Florence and impose our Latin understanding of papacy on the East which does not share this understanding. We do not want to conflict with your autonomous, autocephalous churches. We are hampered by our ecclesiology in some significant respects but we're working on that.

The Catholic Church does officially teach that the Orthodox communion suffers from a wound in not being in full Communion with the Church of Rome which in the first millenium was the nexus of unity for the churches and the primus, and we believe that the Church of Christ subsists fully in the Catholic Church because of our maintenance of this union with Rome HOWEVER this is ecclesiological. The Church does not teach that you have not preserved THE FAITH IN ITS FULLNESS. We believe you have, which is why we recognise all your saints, your theology, your sacraments etc.

And for that reason you are our honoured brothers and share the same faith as us. And no, I don't put you below my fellow Roman or Eastern Catholics simply because your Church has ecclesiological differences with Rome that stretch back to when we were one Church.

We are both Catholics.

Pope Benedict XVI said the following back in the 70s:

Although it is not given us to halt the flight of history, to change the course of centuries, we may say, nevertheless, that what was possible for a thousand years is not impossible for Christians today…. In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope’s visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one also presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has always had. …

My diagnosis of the relationship between East and West in the Church is as follows: from a theological perspective, the union of the Churches of East and West is fundamentally possible, but the spiritual preparation is not yet sufficiently far advanced and, therefore, not yet ready in practice.

To advance this spiritual preparation for an eventual reunion of East and West, he said that


it is the task of every responsible Christian and, in a particular way, of theologians and leaders of the Church to create a spiritual climate for the theologically possible; under the compelling mandate of a unity without sameness, to see and experience the antithetical at all times without specious superficiality; to inquire always not just about the defensibility of union, of mutual recognition, but even more urgently about the defensibility of remaining separate, for it is not unity that requires justification but the absence of it.

And as Pope he said this in 2009:

The theme of the plenary session, The Role of the Bishop of Rome in the Communion of the Church in the First Millennium, is certainly complex, and will require extensive study and patient dialogue if we are to aspire to a shared integration of the traditions of East and West. The Catholic Church understands the Petrine ministry as a gift of the Lord to His Church. This ministry should not be interpreted in the perspective of power, but within an ecclesiology of communion, as a service to unity in truth and charity. The Bishop of the Church of Rome, which presides in charity (Saint Ignatius of Antioch), is understood to be the Servus Servorum Dei (Saint Gregory the Great). Thus, as my venerable predecessor the Servant of God Pope John Paul II wrote and I reiterated on the occasion of my visit to the Phanar in November 2006, it is a question of seeking together, inspired by the model of the first millennium, the forms in which the ministry of the Bishop of Rome may accomplish a service of love recognized by one and all (cf. Ut Unum Sint, 95). Let us therefore ask God to bless us and may the Holy Spirit guide us along this difficult yet promising path.