Ali

As I read the first paragraph of the Aqdas, it becomes evident that heaven is only for the devout followers of Bahaullah. Bahaullah and The Bab were both Twelvers - adhering to a denomination in Islam (15-20%) that is exclusive due to their emphasis on believing in the divine representatives. I would like to know what my Bahai brethren and sisters think of this topic - thanks.

"Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity." (Tablet of Ahmad)

Zhang

When Muhammad died he wanted to be buried in an unmarked location and forgotten, because he knew that there would be those who would set up partners with God, who would pray to Muhammad instead of God himself. When the Prophets of the past died they all knew they were dying for something greater, and that they were just men. Do we pray to Moses? Abraham? Isaac?

Baha'u'llah not only calls himself a Beauty, but anyone who turns away from him will be turning away from the messengers of the past. Meanwhile in Islam, Christians and Jews have nothing to fear, and in Christianity Jesus died for the sins of all mankind.

I was brought up in a cult and if you didn't believe that the Chief Elder talked directly to God you were excommunicated and Jesus would turn his back on you during judgement day. I wonder how that verse is any different? :/

GenuineSeeker

I'm sorry. You lost me. Are you comparing B. to your previous chief elder? I must have misunderstood your meaning, but wanted to ask for clarification. Thanks and excuse the question if it is offensive.

Noexalt

This is my two cents and it probably does not answer your question, but I thought I'd put it out there.

In my thinking, "He who turns away", must first TURN TOWARD. I don't think it applies to someone who just heard about Baha'u'llah after reading about Him or hearing a blurb about Him, and has not formed any real opinion.

I think if someone has believed in Baha'u'llah and then later completely rejects Him...that is interesting. And I think it's a little weird actually. In talking to some of my friends who have either left the Faith, or distanced themselves from the Faith, it is because of bad experiences with other Baha'is, Bahai Administration, or the Baha'i community. None of them have said that they outright reject Baha'u'llah.

Some of the online Baha'i critics may even have issues with Abdu'l Baha or some things about Shoghi Effendi, but I see very little anti-Baha'u'llah sentiment unless it's from some extremist Christian or Muslim.

I think most people who are not Baha'i, and are reasonable wouldn't necessarily outright reject Baha'u'llah on any real basis, they may not accept Him as a Manifestation of God, but they won't necessarily oppose His teachings either.

Now the PRIDE thing is interesting to me. What is to be gained from outright rejecting Baha'u'llah? Honestly absolutely nothing. What is to gained by opposing any religious group or religious figure? It can come down to a question about tolerance. Now some may want to make a name for themselves by launching a website that is Anti-Baha'u'llah, which to me is intolerant, and nothing less than self-promoting pride. Why do you need to do that? What is so outrageously harmful in this Faith that you need to launch this big huge campaign? Usually, nothing, but they want to split hairs over theology, doctrine, put out theories, conspiracies and bang around some historical interpretations. This is all about them, not about Baha'u'llah. They found a cause to jump on and they're doing it.

The teachings in the Baha'i Faith are that the World Religions are one. This goes deep, it's not just a nice statement we use to promote elimination of prejudice. Baha'u'llah teaches that the Manifestations of God are the same spirit that has appeared at different times in different different places. In otherwords, spiritually speaking Baha'u'llah and Christ are the same, Christ and Muhummad are the same, Buddha and Zoroaster are the same, etc. etc.

So if you are a Baha'i, and you have accepted Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day, then you believe that all the Manifestations of God are the same spirit. By then turning away from Baha'u'llah, what does that mean? It means you have turned away from all of them. And for what reason? What benefit do you really get out of that? I do believe that there is some self-serving, self-absorbed reason behind it.

Even, me with all of my frustrations with things about the Baha'i community, administration, etc. At the end of the day, if I leave the Faith, it won't be because of Baha'u'llah, and I will most likely respect the teachings of Baha'u'llah regardless. I just won't agree with the Baha'i community is being "managed" so to speak.

That's my 2 cents and my 2 cents only.

Timothy248

If this wasn't true then this would be a oppressive thing to say, however he is simply stating the way it is. These days people get so caught up in their ideas of what's right and what's wrong that they don't take the time to look past the obvious.

Ali

Brother, you couldn't give me a simple and concise answer?

Ali

I couldn't agree with you more. It would seem so foolish for Bahaullah and his disciples to endure such hardship at the hands of Twelvers if both religions lead to God.

Noexalt

I would like to hear more about this cult. These things interest me, have you put it on the forum before?

InvestigateTruth

"Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity." (Tablet of Ahmad)

To me this means, if someone after hearing about Baha'u'llah, does not recognize Him, he indeed has not recognized the Messengers of the passed, eventhough outwardly he is a believer of Jesus or Muhammad.
The reason is that Baha'u'llah is the return of All Messengers of the passed. People who do not recognize Him, perhaps accepted their own faith in other Messengers based on immitations, and false traditions and beliefs, but not in Essence.

"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muḥammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayán to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty. He, verily, is the Truth, the Knower of things unseen. I, verily, anticipate from you the treatment ye have accorded unto Him that came before Me. To this all things, verily, witness, if ye be of those who hearken. O people of the Bayán! If ye have resolved to shed the blood of Him Whose coming the Báb hath proclaimed, Whose advent Muḥammad hath prophesied, and Whose Revelation Jesus Christ Himself hath announced, behold Me standing, ready and defenseless, before you. Deal with Me after your own desires." Gleansing from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p.71

If Muhammad has returned and if a Moslem has not recognized Him, it is clear, He has believed in Muhahhamd based on traditional immitations, but not His Spiritual Reality.

arthra

While Baha'is accept the Shiah view of early Islamic history I don't think it is intened to be taken in an exclusivist way... Our teachiongs invite everyone.. including Sunnis and Shiahs and Christians, Druzes and all the other religions:

We witness a corresponding increase in the diversity of the elements within its fellowship, which from being confined, in the first period of its history, to an obscure body of followers chiefly recruited from the ranks of the masses in Shí'ah Persia, has expanded into a fraternity representative of the leading religious systems of the world, of almost every caste and color, from the humblest worker and peasant to royalty itself.

~ Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. xvi


The Bahá'í International Community, for example, has over a century of experience in building communities committed to the principle of the oneness of mankind. Since the mid-19th century, myriad religious, racial, ethnic, cultural, linguistic and national elements have come together to promote the concept of unity in diversity. Our programme for the realization of racial unity is at once social, spiritual and organic.

~ Baha'i International Community, 1989 Feb 08, Eliminating Racism



There are a couple of essays that concern exclusivism that may interest to you and I'll suggest them here:

Understanding Exclusivist Texts

Religion and Exclusivism

The last one deals with pluralism:

Religious Pluralism

Ali

What is your view? Be concise please.

Iconodule

Actually in the quran (which bahai assure me is totally correct) I am doomed to hellfire because I have rejected truth.

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

I am essentially doomed in the bahai and islamic fiath. Not that im worried as I see no Godliness within these faiths.

As for Christianity, Christ has died for those in the world, but one must ahve a faith and repentance and works. Otherwise one cannot expect to be saved. this includes accepting Christ as the judge, Christ as the person we look to, whom we draw our attention and focus on to, that we magnify and glorify him forever.

Sen McGlinn

Could you explain how you make the jump from the first paragraph of the Aqdas to exclusive salvation?

To me, the first paragraph is a preface saying that the religious duties such as prayer, fasting and inheritance, which he is about to prescribe (for Bahais to follow), are only valuable if they are performed with conscious commitment with the one who revealed them. The same doctrine is found in Islam (where it is called "intent") and in Christianity. For example, participating in the Roman Catholic Mass will not get you any good points with God, if you don't believe in Christ, or if you do, but you are thinking about getting a promotion at work, while kneeling for the host.

The idea that heaven is only for the followers of one religion is the antithesis of what Baha'u'llah taught:

Ali

I'm completely disagree. This first paragraph of the Aqdas is so clear on this matter.

InvestigateTruth

I found this in Some Answered Questions:

"Question.—It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas “...whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” What is the meaning of this verse?
Answer.—This blessed verse means that the foundation of success and salvation is the knowledge of God, and that the results of the knowledge of God are the good actions which are the fruits of faith.
If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference.
Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God."
Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions, p.105

Ali

Thanks for the quote.

As far as I understand, there are three groups of people...
(A) Those who recognize Bahaullah and perform good deeds
(B) Those who recognize Bahaullah and perform evil deeds
(C) Those who do not recognize Bahaullah and perform good deeds

So (A) and (C) are deserving of salvation while (B) are damned.
And are those who do not recognize Bahaullah (C) ignorant or deceived?

InvestigateTruth

I doubted if a person truely has recognized Baha'u'llah, does not do good actions or acts in opposite of the teachings of Baha'u'llah. I think to recognize Baha'u'llah a person needs to do good actions.

This is from Quran:

“Let him then who hopeth to attain the presence of his Lord work a righteous work.” Qur’án 18:111

Baha'u'llah in Iqan explains that by "attaining the presence of Lord" is meant recognizing The Manifestation of God, who is Baha'u'llah. (see Iqan page 42-46)

Baha'u'llah explains that in order to recognize the Manifetation one needs to have a clear heart. To have a clear heart one needs to do good actions, and avoid wrong actions such as backbiting.

Ali

So would Muslims go to heaven even if they are ignorant enough as not to look for the Mahdi?

InvestigateTruth

I found this quote:

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed—that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice—for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God. Are not all the people in that world the creatures of God? Therefore, in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness and receive light through entreaties and supplications. Thus as souls in this world, through the help of the supplications, the entreaties and the prayers of the holy ones, can acquire development, so is it the same after death. Through their own prayers and supplications they can also progress, more especially when they are the object of the intercession of the Holy Manifestations."
Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions, p.103