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Old 01-30-2013, 07:56 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@arthra

"His marriages after she passed away were for state reasons"

Since A'ishah's family was already Islamic what state reason was there to marry a nine year old?


Aisha had previously been engaged to be married to a pagan who broke off the engagement because she was a Muslim...

The arranged marriage also solidified the relationship between Abu Bakr and the Prophet.
 
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:55 AM   #362
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@arthra

"Aisha had previously been engaged to be married to a pagan who broke off the engagement because she was a Muslim...

The arranged marriage also solidified the relationship between Abu Bakr and the Prophet."

I'm not getting it my friend. So she was engaged at nine and it was broken off. Nine is hardly an old maid even at that time and culture. No doubt the marriage did further solidify the relationship between Abu Bakr and Muhammad but did it need it? Unless I am mistaken they were getting along just fine. I fail to see how this marriage was for state reasons.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 02:42 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@arthra

"His marriages after she passed away were for state reasons"

Since A'ishah's family was already Islamic what state reason was there to marry a nine year old?
Muhammad married Aisha primarily a favor to one of His earliest followers, Abu Bakr, Aisha's father. Artha already mentioned she had been previously engaged to a pagan and breaking off of that engagement would have put her in a somewhat awkward situation. But I doubt if she was nine years old as some of the hadith indicate. The math just doesn't add up. Ibn Ishaq indicates converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at
least fifteen in 622 CE, the year of the hijra and her marriage to Muhammad isn't consummated until two years after the hijra.
 
Old 03-02-2013, 08:45 AM   #364
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"... Muhammadanism is not only the last of the world religions, but are fuller Revelation than any one preceding it. The Qur'án is not only more authoritative than any previous religious gospel, but it contains also much more ordinances, teachings and precepts, which taken together constitute a fuller Revelation of God's purpose and law to mankind than Christianity, Judaism or any other previous Dispensation. This view is in complete accord with the Bahá'í philosophy of progressive revelation, and should be thoroughly accepted and taught by every loyal Christian Bahá'í."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 12, 1933)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 497)

I'd be interested to know which teachings, ordinances and precepts are considered the fuller Revelation of God's purpose to mankind than Christianity.
All? Some?


Chronological Order of the Qur'an - WikiIslam
I realize that this thread appears to have died/stopped, but I would like to make one comment.
For instance in science the Quran is more progressive, while Christianity was killing those who said the earth revolved around the Sun the Quran clearly states that it is fixed in space as in stationary, while Christianity still held the belief that the sun revolved around the earth.
Does this not show a fuller Revelation, and of course there are many more, during the time of the early Islam, Christians came to Islamic schools to learn.

We can all be closed minded at times, we need to study other books without prejudice, thereby arriving at a more honest understanding.
 
Old 03-02-2013, 09:44 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by BlinkeyBill View Post
I realize that this thread appears to have died/stopped, but I would like to make one comment.
For instance in science the Quran is more progressive, while Christianity was killing those who said the earth revolved around the Sun the Quran clearly states that it is fixed in space as in stationary, while Christianity still held the belief that the sun revolved around the earth.
Does this not show a fuller Revelation, and of course there are many more, during the time of the early Islam, Christians came to Islamic schools to learn.

We can all be closed minded at times, we need to study other books without prejudice, thereby arriving at a more honest understanding.
Unfortunately fanaticism is more widespread...

However, the observatory was destroyed by religious fanatics in 1449 and was only re-discovered in 1908, by a Uzbek-Russian archaeologist from Samarkand named V. L. Vyatkin, who discovered an endowment document that stated the observatory's exact location.[3]

Read the article:

Ulugh Beg Observatory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 03-21-2013, 10:13 AM   #366
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Thank you arthra for this information, most interesting.

Of course for any honest person it can be seen that the Qurán brought more knowledge than found in the Christian Bible. Saying that it should not be a problem only for those with bias who refuse to accept the Qurán as the continuing Word of God.

The holy books are full of warnings for those who refuse to turn to the new messenger of God. (as for books I speak of the Book of the Jew's, the book of the Christians and the book of Islam)

As for those who refuse to believe we are told to leave them to God. There is no better advice I believe for to argue with these people only encourages them to defame God and His messengers.
 
Old 04-20-2013, 06:10 AM   #367
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@BlinkeyBill

"Of course for any honest person it can be seen that the Qurán brought more knowledge than found in the Christian Bible. Saying that it should not be a problem only for those with bias who refuse to accept the Qurán as the continuing Word of God."

Hey Bill, thanks for your participation. I understand that you view the Qur'an as the Word of God. I've read the entire Qur'an (Pickthall translation), have you? I could debate what useful knowledge the Qur'an itself offers that the Bible does not but my focus is elsewhere. If you wish to check out a page or two back I cite numerous places in the Qur'an where Allah says he doesn't love such and such sinners. The God of the Bible is not like that (I posted scripture to support this). I've challenged anyone here (Baha'i or Muslim) to explain how this how a God who loves less than He used to is more progressive.

"The holy books are full of warnings for those who refuse to turn to the new messenger of God. (as for books I speak of the Book of the Jew's, the book of the Christians and the book of Islam)"

The holy books are also full of warnings against false prophets who are capable of great wonders.

"As for those who refuse to believe we are told to leave them to God. There is no better advice I believe for to argue with these people only encourages them to defame God and His messengers."

I prefer not to argue. I admit I've been guilty of such at various times. But I agree that ultimately it is up to the individual and God. If Muhammad was a Messenger equal to Christ as you believe, Islam should be foreshadowed in the Bible as Christianity was in the OT scriptures.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Muhammad claims that Gabriel gave him his revelation. AKA a different gospel than the one we have preserved in scripture told by an angel. If you've never read the Qur'an or haven't read it in a while I encourage you to do so and contrast it with at least Galatians.

Do you really believe that Islam pictures God's will and purpose for man than Christianity? Consider the ramifications: Men are intrinsically superior according to Islam. God's love is VERY conditional. We are more slaves/servants to God than His children. The list goes on. If you haven't looked at the last few pages in detail I encourage you to.
 
Old 04-20-2013, 06:49 AM   #368
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Wow Blinkey bill, you are quite ignorant aren't you and demonizing in your attitude towards Christians? I mean its not like islam aggressivly invaded CHRISTIAN lands in an attempt to secure them for themselves and bring Christians under the yoke of isalm hrmm? Who was it that invaded spain? Egypt? Consantinople (the whole eastern empire) and continued to move northward even towards russia?

That being said Christianity didn't hold to the belief about the sun not revolving around the earth, the Christians held to the belief, primarily western Christians who based their ideas on what Aristotle said and his influence was a pretty big thing since Aqainas. It wasn't so much the church enforcing this idea, in fact I challange you to find a canon of any church that if anyone dissagree with the medievil perception that he must be killed or excommunicated? Galileo wasn't killed and was more or less put in prison for insulting the pope in a book where he made the Pope a fool, this pope who was a good friend him. Perhaps you should side with the pope because Galileo was rude and obstinate, things which bahai detest more than untruth. Though Galielo was right.

The what knolwedge did the quran bring that couldn't be found in the philosophers before hand or the learned Christian scholars before hand? please make a list. Christians who contributed to science and education in the west and east for that matter provided many significant things, hospitals, charities the idea that infanticide was immoral and similar such things. You simplify history in your attempt to demonize Christians and make Muslims saints. They were not saints.
 
Old 04-20-2013, 08:36 AM   #369
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[QUOTE=Some Further Questions;41537If Muhammad was a Messenger equal to Christ as you believe, Islam should be foreshadowed in the Bible as Christianity was in the OT scriptures.[/QUOTE]

It was foreshadowed, though not in significant detail.

Peace, :-)

Bruce
 
Old 04-20-2013, 09:19 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceDLimber View Post


It was foreshadowed, though not in significant detail.

Peace, :-)

Bruce
You mean when Pauls says Satan can appear as an angel of light right?
 
Old 04-20-2013, 02:19 PM   #371
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@ Bruce

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

(Ref Hebrews 8:6-13)

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? …….
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.


These are just a few passages among many. If this isn’t detail like “pierced my hands and my feet” is not what you mean, what kind of detail are you referring to? Names and dates? I have not found any similar passages in NT or OT scripture to foreshadow Islam, have you?

Always good to hear from you Bruce
 
Old 04-20-2013, 02:21 PM   #372
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I admit this is mostly about Christ so likewise a foreshadowing of Muhammad would also be relevant. But one cannot really separate the founder/central figure of a religion from that religion.
 
Old 04-20-2013, 07:22 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
I admit this is mostly about Christ so likewise a foreshadowing of Muhammad would also be relevant. But one cannot really separate the founder/central figure of a religion from that religion.
You ask where in the Bible is mention of Muhammad?

3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

King James Bible : Habakkuk
33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

King James Bible : Deuteronomy

Mount Paran is a mention of Muhammad.
 
Old 04-20-2013, 11:53 PM   #374
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Deu 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

fiery law

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Paran

Numbers 10:12, 12:16, 13:3, 13:26 mention God and/or the nation of ISRAEL being in Paran.

ten thousands

H7233 rebâbâh (Strong's Concordance)
reb-aw-baw
From H7231; abundance (in number), that is, (specifically) a myriad (whether definite or indefinite): - many, million, X multiply, ten thousand.

I can see why you might like to attribute these verses to Muhammad but if this is all you have I think you'll have to concede it pales in comparrison to what is foretold about Christ. If you're correct and the Bible does foretell Muhammad where is the detail so it's unmistakeable? For example David in Psalm 22 saying "they pierced my hands and my feet" several CENTURIES before crucifixtion was even invented is pretty compelling don't you think? I see nothing you've posted that cannot easily be explained within the context of the Bible, there is nothing unique to Muhammad that I can see...

If God wanted Christians (among others) to accept Muhammad where is the provsion made for such a RADICAL change? For a Christian familiar with the NT it would have been a HUGE departure from what he/she'd been taught.

In Islam you must earn God's love from abstaining from various sins and/or doing good works. The Christian God loved sinners while they were yet sinners.

In Islam faith and works MIGHT get you into heaven, even Muhammad isn't gauranteed a spot in the Qur'an if I remember correctly. In Christianity it's faith and grace unto a SURE place in Heaven.

No longer could a Christian think of themselves as a child of God but at best a servant. As my Muslim friend said to me. "we are the creation of God not his children." No where in the Qur'an are believers refered to as God's children, it's slave or servant.
 
Old 04-21-2013, 07:14 AM   #375
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@BlinkeyBill

Hey Bill, thanks for your participation. I understand that you view the Qur'an as the Word of God. I've read the entire Qur'an (Pickthall translation), have you? I could debate what useful knowledge the Qur'an itself offers that the Bible does not but my focus is elsewhere. If you wish to check out a page or two back I cite numerous places in the Qur'an where Allah says he doesn't love such and such sinners. The God of the Bible is not like that (I posted scripture to support this). I've challenged anyone here (Baha'i or Muslim) to explain how this how a God who loves less than He used to is more progressive.

The holy books are also full of warnings against false prophets who are capable of great wonders.

I prefer not to argue. I admit I've been guilty of such at various times. But I agree that ultimately it is up to the individual and God. If Muhammad was a Messenger equal to Christ as you believe, Islam should be foreshadowed in the Bible as Christianity was in the OT scriptures.

Do you really believe that Islam pictures God's will and purpose for man than Christianity? Consider the ramifications: Men are intrinsically superior according to Islam. God's love is VERY conditional. We are more slaves/servants to God than His children. The list goes on. If you haven't looked at the last few pages in detail I encourage you to.
My dear friend I will try again here to answer your questions, but of course it all comes down eventually what you wish to believe.

Now you question me as to if I have read and studied the Quran, yes I have and not just the one translation but all of the popular translations, at this time I have The Qur'an: English translation and Parallel Arabic text by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem (Jul 29, 2010). This is a most wonderful translation.

As I am sure you would know that most early translations were not wonderful, as the Arabic is difficult for anyone who is not very conversant with the language to translate correctly. The very reason why many Muslims refuse to accept anything than the Quran in Arabic, for one word in that language can have different meanings. Now understanding that, one has to be careful in making judgments on reading any of these early copies.

Now to take verses out of the Quran as many people have without reading the following verses can give a very false idea of the Quran. Such as the verses that tell the people to fight against unbelievers. For in following verses you will find where the people are told that mercy is better than fighting and killing, that when the enemy stops its aggression then then the Muslims should also cease, and it will say such things that God, loves the just, the merciful etc. Is this not so.

You have said in your posts that the Quran makes the believers out to be servants and not children of God, you more or less say this makes you disbelieve in the Quran as the Word of God. Now when you say these things I am amazed, for who are we, a humble creation, to tell God what He can or can't say or do? Your comments re the Quran are totally different to what I see in the Quran, I only see a loving Father, teaching and talking to His children, with love and at times sorrow at bad actions.

Now in one other place you speak of my belief being different re God's acceptance, let me be clear, I as a Bah'i believe first must come belief in God's messenger then must come good deeds, but even after all that, we believe, it is only by God's Grace that anyone is accepted. Does that more fully explain the Baha'i view as I see it.

Muhammad's teachings are so very similar in many ways to the Prophets of the OT. I have had many discussions with atheists who make your same arguments against the OT, saying God is a blood thirsty war monger. But then Muhammad brought new teachings also, reminded people again that there is only one God, correcting some incorrect ideas that people had made in interpretation of the NT.

Now I can understand because of these teachings many people reject Muhammad, but that is in no way a mistake, or incorrect teachings of Muhammad (The Prophet of God) These arguments and refusals have been following God's teachings since man first accepted the first Messenger of God.

I find many of your arguments are the same that the Jewish priests argued about Jesus, and I find it interesting what Jesus said of them, that they were the same generation that argued with Moses. Something to meditate upon.

Now you say that my references I gave re Muhammad, you don't accept, and that there should be more explicit prophecies if Muhammad is a Messenger of God. I would ask why should there be, yes there are many mentions for Christ, but again Christians refer to Isaiah 9-6,7 as reference to Christ, while I can see that it is not.

Now we could go on for ever discussing and refusing to accept some of our joint beliefs, I would prefer to celebrate where we can agree in friendship.

You say that you do not wish to argue and can accept we may agree to disagree. I like that, there are some who come here to this forum to fight about belief to disrespect an others Messengers from God. I refuse to continue discussion with such people even though they try to provoke me to anger and response.

Now I think we can see we are both strong in our own belief, I feel there is no more to discuss about Muhammad the Prophet of God, and His Holy book.
For I am not responsible for you and your belief, as you are not responsible for mine.
Love and peace to you.
 
Old 04-21-2013, 08:27 AM   #376
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Always good to hear from you, Bruce.
Likewise, I'm sure! :-)

And the brief mention I spoke of is prophecy in Revelation:

" Revelation 11
3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they
shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore
days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two
candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out
of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if
any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be
killed."

[Revised English Bible:]
4 "They are the two olive trees and the two lamps that
stand in the presence of the Lord of the earth."


"God will confer the power of prophecy to His two Witnesses,
Muhammad and 'Ali, for 1260 lunar years, terminating at the year
1844 CE. Their teachings will not seem to be new: Muhammad's
spiritual laws (brotherly love, humility, reverence, justice,
etc.) will correspond to those of the Gospel, while most of the
laws relating to the material world (fasting, forms of worship
and prayer, marriage, divorce, etc.) will correspond to those of
the Pentateuch. Therefore, their teachings will be clothed in
old raiment (sackcloth).

"Muhammad and 'Ali are to be God's sources of spiritual
sustenance and light, like olive oil that is both a food and a
fuel for lamps. If anyone shall try to harm His two Witnesses,
fiery words of the Lord will issue from their mouths and their
enemies will be put to flight."

--The Apocalypse, Chapter 11, p. 97.

(Other prophecies in Revelation and Daniel provide the number 1260 mentioned here.)

Peace, :-)

Bruce
 
Old 04-21-2013, 12:51 PM   #377
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I admit this is mostly about Christ so likewise a foreshadowing of Muhammad would also be relevant. But one cannot really separate the founder/central figure of a religion from that religion.
Muhammad sinned, Christ did not.
 
Old 04-21-2013, 08:43 PM   #378
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Let me relate some of the prophecies as a Baha’i that I’ve read and here is an excerpt from a Baha’i George Townshend who was also a prelate of the Church of Ireland…

God foretold to Abraham that the Prophetic succession was to run through Him and be
fulfilled not only in Isaac but in Ishmael. In Genesis 12: 1-2 it is written "Now the
Lord had said unto Abram, . . . I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless
thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:"

And again in Genesis 17:20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold I have blessed him, . . . and will multiple him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I wit make him a treat nation." The narrative continues (Gen. xxi 20-21) "God was with the lad; and he grew, . . . and he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and . . . took him a wife out of the land of Egypt."

He became the progenitor of the people of Arabia and the twelve Princes which he
begot are interpreted as the twelve Imams who followed Muhammad.

Moses confirmed this promise when He Prophesied (Dent. 18:15) to the Israelites
that "the Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me." This refers not only to the coming of Jesus Christ, as is usually thought, but more especially to Muhammad. Moses would have used the word "seed" if He had meant to refer to an Israelite, whereas the word "brethren" indicates that He alludes to Isaac's brother Ishmael. He connects Mount Paran explicitly with the Prophetic line when, in His final blessing before His death, He describes the Prophets who will follow Him:

"The Lord came from Sinai" (meaning Himself, and rose up from Seir . . . (meaning Jesus Christ); he shined forth from mount Paran (meaning Muhammad), and he came with ten thousands of saints (meaning
Bahá'u'lláh)." Deut. 33:2.


- George Townshend ‘Christ and Baha’u’llah” p. 30
 
Old 04-21-2013, 10:17 PM   #379
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Let me relate some of the prophecies as a Baha’i that I’ve read and here is an excerpt from a Baha’i George Townshend who was also a prelate of the Church of Ireland…George Townshend ‘Christ and Baha’u’llah” p. 30
I love George Townsend's Books - He wrote from his great knowledge of the Christian Scriptures - His explanations drawn from the writings of the Faith are easy to follow and show us very Logically the Truth in the words.

Regards Tony
 
Old 04-22-2013, 12:14 AM   #380
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Muhammad sinned, Christ did not.
We know that Christ was tempted. Most of His life is not recorded, just a few vignettes about His childhood and nothing more until age 30 or so. There is much more historical information about Muhammad, and some things that some people interpret as sinful, but others don't consider sinful. I would say that both Christ and Muhammad were free of sin. Both may have been tempted, as part of their human nature but prevailed due to their divine nature.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 02:18 AM   #381
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@BlinkeyBill

“Now to take verses out of the Quran as many people have without reading the following verses can give a very false idea of the Quran.”

I agree with you BB that context is often vital when looking at any religious book. While no expert I do continue to expand my knowledge of Islam after reading the entire Qur’an, portions of the Hadith and speaking with other Muslims. One of my friends at work is Muslim who is fluent/literate in Arabic and we’ve had some discussions about a number of things mentioned here. So far (according to him) my concern that Allah of the Qur’an does not love sinners consistently like the God of the Bible is valid. So again I ask, how is a God who loves LESS progressive?

I understand that God deals with the sins of mankind in various ways, but why stop loving them? You’ve read the Qur’an so you can certainly recall the many places it flat out says “Allah does not love ______”.

As for violence mentioned in the Qur’an and mercy being better (Surah & ayah please) I agree it seems a mixed bag. But as you’ve said you believe in progressive revelation and that is what you see in Islam through the Law of Abrogation.

2:106 Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things ?

16:101 And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

Many scholars accept Surah 9 At-Tawba to be the second to last Surah and 110 being the last.

110. an-Nasr: The Help 1 When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh 2 And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops, 3 Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.

In a broad stroke it mentions seeking forgiveness and Allah being merciful I don’t think it’s relevant to what we’re discussing. Surah 9 however mentions that when a certain treaty expired…

5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

And….

29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'án. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

113 It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

Who are the people of hell- fire?

63 Know they not that whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, his verily is fire of hell, to abide therein ? That is the extreme abasement.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 9 - Repentance)

If you think Pickthall is missing something in his translation and/or I’ve taken something out of context please say so. As best I understand the Qur’an according to its self-imposed Law of Abrogation these verses override the … nicer verses in the Qur’an.
As for us being children I see the Bible say that of Christians often, can you show me one verse in the Qur’an where it mentions believers as children/ a child of Allah's?

“You have said in your posts that the Quran makes the believers out to be servants and not children of God, you more or less say this makes you disbelieve in the Quran as the Word of God.”

There are LOTS of things that cause me to disbelieve the Qur’an, but yes going from children to servant is one of them. I’ll be one of the first ones to admit that things were often harsh in the OT, sometimes similar to what you see in the Qur’an. But we both agree that after Christ things got better, it was a new Covenant. When Muhammad’s new covenant came along I think things got worse. I don’t presume to tell God what He can or cannot do, I simply believe Him when He says He cannot lie and that Christians became His children FOREVER not to be relegated to solely servant when Muhammad showed up.

“Your comments re the Quran are totally different to what I see in the Quran, I only see a loving Father, teaching and talking to His children, with love and at times sorrow at bad actions.”

So BB when you look at these verses can you explain how you see a loving Father when he flat out says he DOESN’T love them?

4:107 And plead not on behalf of (people) who deceive themselves. Lo! Allah loveth not one who is treacherous and sinful.

6:141 He it is Who produceth gardens trellised and untrellised, and the date-palm, and crops of divers flavour, and the olive and the pomegranate, like and unlike. Eat ye of the fruit thereof when it fruiteth, and pay the due thereof upon the harvest day, and be not prodigal. Lo! Allah loveth not the prodigals.

16:23 Assuredly Allah knoweth that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim. Lo! He loveth not the proud.

22:38 Lo! Allah defendeth those who are true. Lo! Allah loveth not each treacherous ingrate.

28:77 But seek the abode of the Hereafter in that which Allah hath given thee and neglect not thy portion of the world, and be thou kind even as Allah hath been kind to thee, and seek not corruption in the earth; lo! Allah loveth not corrupters,

30:45 That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He (Allah) loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).

Vs.

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth (exhibits) his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

“I find many of your arguments are the same that the Jewish priests argued about Jesus, and I find it interesting what Jesus said of them, that they were the same generation that argued with Moses. Something to meditate upon.”

It may surprise you to learn that as a young man I very much wanted to become a Baha’i but could not wrap my mind certain contradictions like the resurrection. My heart was there, but in good conscience I could not do it because the Writings did not align with the Bible on several key points. It took me a while to figure out because on the flip side I didn’t want to accept that a good and just God could allow someone to go to Hell who’d never heard of Christ. In the end here I am, but it’s not because I didn’t have an open mind and heart to Bahauallah, Muhammad and the others, the evidence FOR them just hasn't been there.

“Now you say that my references I gave re Muhammad, you don't accept, and that there should be more explicit prophecies if Muhammad is a Messenger of God. I would ask why should there be, yes there are many mentions for Christ, but again Christians refer to Isaiah 9-6,7 as reference to Christ, while I can see that it is not.”

Because a prophecy is not fulfilling one of it’s key purposes if it doesn’t direct the reader/hearer some specific direction. It would be like being in a flat desert and told "when the sun rises walk toward the city." If you have no idea where the city is, or if there are multiple cities at the same distance that doesn't help much does it? So you’d prefer to think Isaiah 9 is about Bahauallah or someone? Fine for the moment . There are PLENTY of other references to Christ. Unless you have others you provided two fairly vague references to Paran which could easily be explained, whereas something like “pierced my hands and my feet” and a number of other SPECIFIC references to Christ cannot.

“Now we could go on for ever discussing and refusing to accept some of our joint beliefs, I would prefer to celebrate where we can agree in friendship.”

Well where we agree is nice as far as it goes. And if we worked together or saw each other on a daily basis elsewhere I would attempt to be a great deal more careful in our discussions. But my purpose here is to respectfully discuss the Bible and how it relates to Islam and the Baha’i Faith. Obviously we do not agree at this point but I do strive to keep an open mind. So far no one has been able to tell me why God decided he would go from unconditional love to conditional love and how that is more progressive. I would like to continue our discussion, but if all you have to say on this matter has been said thank you for your participation and I will be praying for you : ) It is my commission from God to preach the Gospel, not only to those ignorant of it but to those mistaken about it.

Respectfully,

SFQ
 
Old 04-22-2013, 02:21 AM   #382
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@Iconodule

"Muhammad sinned, Christ did not.'

Well yeah we think so. But one thing at a time my friend!
 
Old 04-22-2013, 03:45 AM   #383
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@arthra

I don’t know arthra “from the midst of thee” seems a clear indicator the prophet was going to be an Israelite. It is true that Ishmael was Isaac's half-brother: but, if the Ishmaelites may be called the brethren of Israel, assuredly, the Israelite tribes may more correctly be called one another's brethren. (Israelites are called one another's brethren in this very book of Deuteronomy, e.g., in chapters 3:18; 15:7; 17:15; 24:14. George’s assertion that the word “seed” would have been used is not consistent to what we see elsewhere in Deuteronomy.

In ch. 17:15 there is a passage in reference to the appointment of a king: "one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee. " Most, if not all, the kingdoms of Europe are ruled by kings who belong to families which are or were originally foreign. But in all history we never hear of the Israelites appointing over themselves a foreigner as king. They should have gone to the Ishmaelites for their kings, if the explanation of "from among their brethren" in Deut. 18:18 is correct.

They didn’t. The Bible clearly says that no prophet was to be expected from Ishmael, for God's covenant was made with Isaac, not with him (Gen. 17:18-21; 21:10-12).

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 12:20 PM   #384
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Of course, God hates the Arabs, that's why He allowed them to be deliberately led astray by a false prophet.

Thank goodness, that good, white Christians might be able to save them in time, by pointing out to them, the intractable errors in their false religion.

 
Old 04-22-2013, 05:51 PM   #385
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We know that Christ was tempted. Most of His life is not recorded, just a few vignettes about His childhood and nothing more until age 30 or so. There is much more historical information about Muhammad, and some things that some people interpret as sinful, but others don't consider sinful. I would say that both Christ and Muhammad were free of sin. Both may have been tempted, as part of their human nature but prevailed due to their divine nature.
Christ never waivered in his heart. Are you going to accuse Christ of contemplating evil things? Besides you don't believe in those accounts to be literal, satan didn't really appear to Jesus to tempt him these things. Father Jesus (it seems according a bahai understanding) had these thoughts in his mind and simply neglected to carry them out, they aren't really temptations as much as him deciding not to go through with an idea. That is of course the bahai interpretation.

And No there is not much historical information outside of the hadith or the islamic sources. Bahais don't trust most of the and for good reason because they are unrealiable, numerous and very late as far as historical sources go.

But according to those histories Muhammad did sin and we find instances of when did. I would say for instance that marriage to a nine year old is sin. That Muhammad is recorded to have taken his son's (or similar such thing) wife simply because he desired her (in point of this fact Aisha is recorded to have said how Allah hastens to please Muhammad whenever he should desire something, coincidence?) a most heinous sin.

If you have something to bring against Christ, then bring it. Muhammads sins are revealed plainly if the sources are to be trusted. I suggest we really cannot know a whole lot about muhammad to trust him in the first place.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 05:53 PM   #386
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Of course, God hates the Arabs, that's why He allowed them to be deliberately led astray by a false prophet.

Thank goodness, that good, white Christians might be able to save them in time, by pointing out to them, the intractable errors in their false religion.

Actually God might have been punishing the byzantines for falling into sin and false doctrine. Does God hate the arabs? No, there were arab Christians before there was ever an arab Muslim and they have made great saints and defenders of the faith. John Chrysostom being probably the greatest arab saint in history.

But yeah, Christians have pointed out the innumerable errors of the muslims, we have accounts of this. They didn't just bow down to muhammad, the educated and knowing Christians anyway.
 
Old 04-22-2013, 06:15 PM   #387
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@BlinkeyBill

I agree with you BB that context is often vital when looking at any religious book. While no expert I do continue to expand my knowledge of Islam after reading the entire Qur’an, portions of the Hadith and speaking with other Muslims. One of my friends at work is Muslim who is fluent/literate in Arabic and we’ve had some discussions about a number of things mentioned here. So far (according to him) my concern that Allah of the Qur’an does not love sinners consistently like the God of the Bible is valid. So again I ask, how is a God who loves LESS progressive?

I understand that God deals with the sins of mankind in various ways, but why stop loving them? You’ve read the Qur’an so you can certainly recall the many places it flat out says “Allah does not love ______”.

As for violence mentioned in the Qur’an and mercy being better (Surah & ayah please) I agree it seems a mixed bag. But as you’ve said you believe in progressive revelation and that is what you see in Islam through the Law of Abrogation.

In a broad stroke it mentions seeking forgiveness and Allah being merciful I don’t think it’s relevant to what we’re discussing. Surah 9 however mentions that when a certain treaty expired…

If you think Pickthall is missing something in his translation and/or I’ve taken something out of context please say so. As best I understand the Qur’an according to its self-imposed Law of Abrogation these verses override the … nicer verses in the Qur’an.
As for us being children I see the Bible say that of Christians often, can you show me one verse in the Qur’an where it mentions believers as children/ a child of Allah's?

There are LOTS of things that cause me to disbelieve the Qur’an, but yes going from children to servant is one of them. I’ll be one of the first ones to admit that things were often harsh in the OT, sometimes similar to what you see in the Qur’an. But we both agree that after Christ things got better, it was a new Covenant. When Muhammad’s new covenant came along I think things got worse. I don’t presume to tell God what He can or cannot do, I simply believe Him when He says He cannot lie and that Christians became His children FOREVER not to be relegated to solely servant when Muhammad showed up.

So BB when you look at these verses can you explain how you see a loving Father when he flat out says he DOESN’T love them?

It may surprise you to learn that as a young man I very much wanted to become a Baha’i but could not wrap my mind certain contradictions like the resurrection. My heart was there, but in good conscience I could not do it because the Writings did not align with the Bible on several key points. It took me a while to figure out because on the flip side I didn’t want to accept that a good and just God could allow someone to go to Hell who’d never heard of Christ. In the end here I am, but it’s not because I didn’t have an open mind and heart to Bahauallah, Muhammad and the others, the evidence FOR them just hasn't been there.

So you’d prefer to think Isaiah 9 is about Bahauallah or someone? Fine for the moment . There are PLENTY of other references to Christ. Unless you have others you provided two fairly vague references to Paran which could easily be explained, whereas something like “pierced my hands and my feet” and a number of other SPECIFIC references to Christ cannot.

Well where we agree is nice as far as it goes. And if we worked together or saw each other on a daily basis elsewhere I would attempt to be a great deal more careful in our discussions. But my purpose here is to respectfully discuss the Bible and how it relates to Islam and the Baha’i Faith. Obviously we do not agree at this point but I do strive to keep an open mind. So far no one has been able to tell me why God decided he would go from unconditional love to conditional love and how that is more progressive. I would like to continue our discussion, but if all you have to say on this matter has been said thank you for your participation and I will be praying for you : ) It is my commission from God to preach the Gospel, not only to those ignorant of it but to those mistaken about it.

Respectfully,

SFQ
Dear friend, yes I suppose I tire of this continual discussion that goes no where, but then I am old and infirm, so sadly is more my fault.
Now as I said before, God tests his servants/children with these apparent differences in Messengers and Messages, people tend to consider these differences reasons not to believe.
That is OK, we are only held accountable for our selves. It is up to each of us to investigate and then decide.
You say the God of the Bible is more loving than the God of the Quran, but that is your interpretation, I can only repeat myself, I hear a different voice than you. For the sheep knows the voice of the shepherd. That you do not recognize the voice of the shepherd in Muhammad or in The Bab or Baha'u'llah, I feel sad for you. And as you say you will pray for me (thank you) I also will pray for you :-)
Now you say the two verses I gave you regarding Muhammad are weak, that is your thought, but then I saw Bruce give you other verses from Revelation, apparently you do not mention them?
But all of this is of no importance to me, I consider anyone reading the Quran should see its truth, that you do not, OK, but is not my problem:-)
An interesting thing is in the teachings of Baha'u'llah, He says that God allows a person to either see or hear His Word, because of some action/deed done in their lives. This may explain why many refused the Words of Jesus and so on.

You question concerning hell fire? That is mentioned so much in the NT and OT I am surprised that you would single this out.
You give verses to prove that God's Word in the Quran is unloving because He speaks about chastisements for unbelievers, idolaters, or those who are treacherous and sinful, as if this is bad. You appear to overlook similar passages in the OT or NT that are the same. Many Christians I know can only speak about how I am going directly to hell fire and hell :-) But I know what I know they know what they know, I am content.

As for knowing a Muslim great I also know a few, as I know many Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindu's etc but I also know that these people are at all different levels of not only knowledge but also spirituality, as I am taught that not every person who says they are Baha'i in reality is, for only God knows the hearts.

Now as for the translations I say again that only the pure Arabic is totally correct, and accepted by Muslims. But of course it needs to be translated into English for us folks, I have read Pickthall myself and though understanding it may miss a lot in translation from the Arabic, I see sufficiant truth to understand. But at this time I prefer the Quran by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem, I purchased my copy with the corresponding pages in Arabic from Amazon Books, I like it for it gives a brief history of why Suras appear as they do, also gives a brief critic of the former English translations, and many other subjects, also it is written by a Muslim, not a Christian author, I feel that is important.

With love and peace
 
Old 04-22-2013, 06:25 PM   #388
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Of course, God hates the Arabs, that's why He allowed them to be deliberately led astray by a false prophet.

Thank goodness, that good, white Christians might be able to save them in time, by pointing out to them, the intractable errors in their false religion.

Dear friend, I understand your frustration.
 
Old 04-23-2013, 04:22 AM   #389
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Dear Some Further Questions

May I ask a question of you?

I would ask you to please go to my heading of The Return, under general discussion and explain to me how your understand is of the RETURN of Christ.
I am sure you understand the Baha'i point of view, and I have given what I see as a clear example, that was given by Christ.

That is if you wish to.

Love and peace to you
 
Old 04-23-2013, 05:22 AM   #390
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@Is that with every manifestation or was it just Bahauallah?
The Day of Judgement refers to the appearance on earth of EVERY Manifestation.

For each one, humanity is judged by whether or not it accepts the new Revelation.

Peace, :-)

Bruce
 
Old 04-23-2013, 07:16 AM   #391
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Actually God might have been punishing the byzantines for falling into sin and false doctrine. Does God hate the arabs? No, there were arab Christians before there was ever an arab Muslim and they have made great saints and defenders of the faith. John Chrysostom being probably the greatest arab saint in history.

But yeah, Christians have pointed out the innumerable errors of the muslims, we have accounts of this. They didn't just bow down to muhammad, the educated and knowing Christians anyway.
Like anybody, I'm a spiritual work in progress. But I'm way past lending any credence to religious chauvinism.

Anything can be argued to look good -- but all one really has to do, is look to the ends of what's being suggested.
 
Old 04-23-2013, 08:07 AM   #392
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Dear friend, I understand your frustration.
And I should not let it get the better of me.

But in all honesty, I firmly think, religious chauvinism is a hallmark of spiritual immaturity and feebleness. Hence, Baha'u'llah warned so sternly against it.

As I said in a previous post, just about anything can be argued well enough to look good -- and instead of getting into hair-splitting contests, I've found it best to just look to the ends of an idea being proposed.

Indeed, Christ Jesus Himself pointed that out, when he said, "by their fruits, ye shall know them." That was, indeed, a lesson in critical thinking. Look the ends -- the "fruits" -- of any idea or sentiment, and the truth will become clear.

I'm past it. I'm over it. Religious chauvinism is no better than misogyny or racism -- no matter how cleverly it's argued.

The Guardian suggested that Baha'is in America and the West would be tasked with redeeming Muhammed and Islam. But for now, at least, I'm weary of the dog of cynicism and ingratitude snarling at the heels of so great and wonderful a Prophet of God as Muhammed. I'm sick to death of His name being haughtily dragged through the mud, by those who understand Him not. I feel I must, at least for now, withdraw from any discussions on the topic.

Good luck on this thread, my friend --- love to all.
 
Old 04-23-2013, 08:48 AM   #393
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And I should not let it get the better of me.

But in all honesty, I firmly think, religious chauvinism is a hallmark of spiritual immaturity and feebleness. Hence, Baha'u'llah warned so sternly against it.

As I said in a previous post, just about anything can be argued well enough to look good -- and instead of getting into hair-splitting contests, I've found it best to just look to the ends of an idea being proposed.

Indeed, Christ Jesus Himself pointed that out, when he said, "by their fruits, ye shall know them." That was, indeed, a lesson in critical thinking. Look the ends -- the "fruits" -- of any idea or sentiment, and the truth will become clear.

I'm past it. I'm over it. Religious chauvinism is no better than misogyny or racism -- no matter how cleverly it's argued.

The Guardian suggested that Baha'is in America and the West would be tasked with redeeming Muhammed and Islam. But for now, at least, I'm weary of the dog of cynicism and ingratitude snarling at the heels of so great and wonderful a Prophet of God as Muhammed. I'm sick to death of His name being haughtily dragged through the mud, by those who understand Him not. I feel I must, at least for now, withdraw from any discussions on the topic.

Good luck on this thread, my friend --- love to all.
Wise words dear friend.

From the Holy Quran:- 2-175 These are the ones who Exchange guidance for error, and forgiveness for torment. What can make them patient in the face of the fire? 176 This is because God has sent the Scriptures with the Truth; those who pursue differences in the Scriptures are deeply entrenched in opposition.
 
Old 04-24-2013, 06:17 PM   #394
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@BlinkeyBill

“You say the God of the Bible is more loving than the God of the Quran, but that is your interpretation, I can only repeat myself, I hear a different voice than you.”

BB I understand you hear a different voice than me. I’m asking you to EXPLAIN what all these verses about “Allah does not love____” mean. You don’t think they mean what they appear to on the surface? Key verse elsewhere? OK, please explain. Or if you don’t want to go into detail point me to a Baha’i writing that explains it. EXPLAIN being the key word.

One would think that of all the things Bahauallh allegedly cleared up the misconception that Allah of the Qur’an doesn’t love consistently and unconditionally would be one of them. Otherwise it appears there is nothing TO clear up. I assume that the Baha’i writings say that God does love unconditionally and consistently but if that is true it would still seem that God did not love in this manner for the “reign” of Islam. Again that seems like regression not progression.

“For the sheep knows the voice of the shepherd. That you do not recognize the voice of the shepherd in Muhammad or in The Bab or Baha'u'llah, I feel sad for you.”

We both agree Joseph Smith is a false prophet right? I imagine the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and a number of other groups feel sorry for both of us. If we understand that not every prophet that comes along is genuine, we must investigate his claims.

“Now you say the two verses I gave you regarding Muhammad are weak, that is your thought, but then I saw Bruce give you other verses from Revelation, apparently you do not mention them?”

Out of respect/appreciation for Bruce I didn’t mention them because I didn’t see any validity to them. I did not want to at least appear rude. It’s a stretch to say the least in my opinion. Look at these following verses:

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. :8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

If the two witnesses don’t literally die in this passage how can it be figurative when their teachings continued to thrive even until today? Why were they given power of plagues never to use it or turn water into blood? If I’m not mistaken Muhammad says the only miracle he provides is the Qur’an itself. What was the beast that made war against Muhammad and Ali and “killed them”. And how did their figurative bodies lie in the street where Christ died?

Also please explain the following: (While you’re at it the rest of ch 11 if you bother at all)

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

“You give verses to prove that God's Word in the Quran is unloving because He speaks about chastisements for unbelievers, idolaters, or those who are treacherous and sinful, as if this is bad. You appear to overlook similar passages in the OT or NT that are the same.”

I brought up that verse because it’s not the God I know to forbid prayer for those that need it most. Why forbid prayer was my point. I believe Allah to be less loving because the NT says God loves the whole world and all us sinners. The Qur'an repeatedly says how Allah does not love various types of sinners unless you can provide an explanation.



1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 
Old 04-24-2013, 08:31 PM   #395
Jcc
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Christ never waivered in his heart. Are you going to accuse Christ of contemplating evil things?
I am most definitely not accusing Christ of anything. I believe He was without sin.
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Besides you don't believe in those accounts to be literal, satan didn't really appear to Jesus to tempt him these things.
The accounts in the Gospels of Christ being tempted have a meaning, they describe inner conflict. I would say that the fact that there was any temptation at all shows Christ's humanity, do you disagree with that?

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Father Jesus (it seems according a bahai understanding) had these thoughts in his mind and simply neglected to carry them out, they aren't really temptations as much as him deciding not to go through with an idea. That is of course the bahai interpretation.
No , I don't think it is the Baha'i understanding at all about this. I said above that it shows Christ's humanity, but that doesn't mean it would be the same as you or me showing our humanity. Manifestations of God operate on a whole different level. We read in the scriptures and try to understand the meaning, what it tells us about the nature of Christ.

What is your understanding about what those gospel accounts mean?

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And No there is not much historical information outside of the hadith or the islamic sources. Bahais don't trust most of the and for good reason because they are unrealiable, numerous and very late as far as historical sources go.
Baha'i don't consider Hadith as scripture, still it is information you need to take with a grain of salt just like any historical record from the period. Plus, there are actual historical records, such as the document Muhammad sent to St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai.

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But according to those histories Muhammad did sin and we find instances of when did. I would say for instance that marriage to a nine year old is sin. That Muhammad is recorded to have taken his son's (or similar such thing) wife simply because he desired her (in point of this fact Aisha is recorded to have said how Allah hastens to please Muhammad whenever he should desire something, coincidence?) a most heinous sin.
I would also call those things sins, but if you read the Old Testament, you see many accounts of people doing things that would be terrible sins today, but were considered acts of "righteous men" at the time. See GEN 19:8, for instance. Part of the lesson, I think is that God knows what is in our hearts.

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If you have something to bring against Christ, then bring it. Muhammads sins are revealed plainly if the sources are to be trusted. I suggest we really cannot know a whole lot about muhammad to trust him in the first place.
Again, I have only praise for Christ and about Him, as well as all of God's Manifestations.
 
Old 04-25-2013, 01:34 PM   #396
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Now muslims and it seems bahai cannot distinguish between temptation. I can offer any bahai 1 million dollars to become Christian and that would be on their account to be tempted. But were they tempted in their heart? Did the theoretical bahai take up the offer seriously? Most likely not and in the similar case Christ while offered thus tempted by the devil never waivered in his heart, he was tempted but he was not. I hope you understand this particular important difference. Hebrews is clear he was not tempted.

As far as the bahai understanding is concerned Satan does not exist, he is a metaphore for evil. You have to interpret (without merit I might add) that satan didn’t really appear to Jesus. It seems to me you have to accept this an account of the thoughts of Jesus within the bahai religion, that he seriously contemplated evil but rejected it. He was really tempted against what the New testament says.

Hadiths I agree cannot be trusted but they are the only sources, as are some of the histories by Islamic authors concerning the life of the so called Prophet. I have no idea how a bahai can know anything about Muhammad in which to praise him, as far as you know he was a man who appeared and gave a book and that’s it.

In so far as the old testament is concerned, yes the men that were accounted as righteous ( I would suggest not so much what they but that they had faith in God) made mistakes and sinned. Moses sinned as did all of the prophets and men of the old testament. This isn’t a problem for Christians but I think it presents a problem for you. That there are perfect manifestations that perfectly represent God like a mirror, that is they expressly without contamination deviate from what God intended, sinned. These men you call manifestations, perfect and eternal with God sinned. Christ alone did not sin and this presents no problem for me as a Christian.
 
Old 04-25-2013, 01:50 PM   #397
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Iconodule,

I had asked what you understand to be the significance of Christ's temptations. You say he was not really tempted, OK, but why does it say temptation if he wasn't really tempted. I'm asking. I am not trying to imply that Jesus was deep down a sinner or anything of the sort. I truly believe He was completely without sin.

I think our conversation would greatly benefit if you were to talk more about your own beliefs instead of saying what you think Baha'is believe. The things you say seem to present a distorted picture, and it is hard to tell if I am not explaining my beliefs clearly, or if you are just jumping to conclusions, assuming what you consider to be the worst so as to convince yourself that our beliefs are false.
 
Old 04-25-2013, 03:16 PM   #398
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Again i've defined what I believe the text is saying. That there are types of temptation.

I'll give you a million dollars to become Christian. What do you say?
 
Old 04-26-2013, 05:03 AM   #399
Jcc
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Again i've defined what I believe the text is saying. That there are types of temptation.

I'll give you a million dollars to become Christian. What do you say?
Ok thanks, I think I get what you are saying.

Yes, I agree that there are different types of temptation, some of which you or I might feel, but the ones mentioned in the Gospels are not like that, they are specific to station and nature of Jesus, and (Baha'is believe) other Manifestations of God. Although, one could draw parallels to temptations that all people, from the poor and destitute to the rich and powerful might experience. They are generally listed as 3 temptations:

1. Turn stones into bread to relive Jesus' own hunger as a result of fasting in the desert.

2. Jump from a high tower, and let angels break His fall, to show everyone that He is the Messiah.

3. Satan offers Jesus dominion over all the Kingdoms of Earth, if He bows down in worship of satan.

I am sure many books have been written about these over the centuries. We can get into the many implications, if you would like, but one point I want to make is that it just seems a bit hollow to me to say simply that Jesus was not really tempted. We can't really know what went on in His heart and mind. In a way, to say that there was no real temptation removes the point of them occurring, and it weakens the meaning that it has for us.

Peace!
 
Old 04-26-2013, 11:04 AM   #400
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Now JCC you didn't answer my question. I'll give you a million dollars to convert to Christianity what do you say?

Now you will answer this question and say no thanks. But the fact remains that I tempted you, will that be against you? Or was your heart set from the begining? Yes satan tempted Christ but Christ did not consider the temptations at all and rejected them. Now if you want to say that Christ seriously considered these things, seriously considered ruling the world, breaking his fast and pretending to die that God might save him, why do you trust this manifestation? I thought manifestations were perfect images of God? How can someone who perfectly reflects God be tempted? Is God tempted?
 
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