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Old 04-26-2013, 04:46 PM   #401
Jcc
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Now JCC you didn't answer my question. I'll give you a million dollars to convert to Christianity what do you say?

Now you will answer this question and say no thanks. But the fact remains that I tempted you, will that be against you? Or was your heart set from the begining? Yes satan tempted Christ but Christ did not consider the temptations at all and rejected them. Now if you want to say that Christ seriously considered these things, seriously considered ruling the world, breaking his fast and pretending to die that God might save him, why do you trust this manifestation? I thought manifestations were perfect images of God? How can someone who perfectly reflects God be tempted? Is God tempted?
Ok, you are correct, I will have to decline your offer for a million dollars, thanks anyway. And yes, the deeper point you are making, which is that I am firm enough in my beliefs that I would not deny them for any amount of money. So that is not really a temptation for me.

Your points are certainly valid, but I am quite sure that the temptations of Christ have been debated literally for centuries, and people have different opinions about it. Even among Christians there are different schools of thought on the matter. As I mentioned, nobody can know what was in Jesus' heart at the time, and the scriptures don't say, either. Although, in Hebrews 4:15 it says

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."

The distinction between being tempted but not giving into it or not really being tempted is subtle, but in my view is significant, and the reason I think is show in that verse.
 
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:52 AM   #402
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So an open invitation to any Muslims or Bahai's that feel they can shed some light on how God loves just as much or more during the times of the New Testament compared to the Qur'an. There are verses in the Bible that I admit can be misunderstood without explanation and or/supporting verses. Can this be done for the Qur'an or is Allah as unloving of sinners as he appears to be according to the verses I provided?
 
Old 04-30-2013, 07:11 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
So an open invitation to any Muslims or Bahai's that feel they can shed some light on how God loves just as much or more during the times of the New Testament compared to the Qur'an. There are verses in the Bible that I admit can be misunderstood without explanation and or/supporting verses. Can this be done for the Qur'an or is Allah as unloving of sinners as he appears to be according to the verses I provided?
I find your words strange my friend, it appears only to be in your mind and the mind of other deniers that the God of the Old Testament, or the God of the New Testament or of the Qurán is different, God has always been one and the same.
That you wish to argue differently is your right because God allows it, to show those of Faith the truth of God's Word. Of course as I have said God also warns those who argue with Him (for in truth that is what you do) of their reward that follows on the heels of such disobedience. Just my understanding.

Loving regards to you and may God guide your journey.
 
Old 04-30-2013, 05:41 PM   #404
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@BlinkeyBill

There is an explanation of why God goes from being harsh to more gentle from OT to NT. Since Baha'is claim that Islam got better from where Christianity was I am asking how that is so given the verses about love in the Bible and Qur'an. Do you feel this an unfair/ unreasonable question? If yes how/why?

From where I stand it does not seem paradoxical. I'm not asking some outlandish "what if" question that probably or never would happen. If you don't know please just say so. There are plenty of things I don't know.
 
Old 04-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #405
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God did harsh things during the life of Muhammad? I thought Bahai say he was a peacemaker?
 
Old 04-30-2013, 06:17 PM   #406
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So an open invitation to any Muslims or Bahai's that feel they can shed some light on how God loves just as much or more during the times of the New Testament compared to the Qur'an. There are verses in the Bible that I admit can be misunderstood without explanation and or/supporting verses. Can this be done for the Qur'an or is Allah as unloving of sinners as he appears to be according to the verses I provided?
Of course we can speculate.. My view is that Jesus in the Gospels had His disciples and followers but when it came time for Him to be tried and crucified the disciples either disowned Him or betrayed Him and fled.... this was after three years ministry of Jesus.

In the case of Prophet Muhammad ... after His public ministry began until the Hijra was about nine years and they were years full of rejection and persecution of the early community. Ali offered his life when he was wrapped in a robe and assassins were bent on killing the Prophet in the night.... Ali later followed the Prophet on foot across the desert. The revelations received then allowed for self defense of the community and many followers and companions of the Prophet gave their lives..

So in comparison there was an Ummah or nation that formed and required defense as well as laws and ordinances.. The role of Jesus was different. Although there is a passage in Luke that suggests a defense:

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

(King James Bible, Luke 22:36 - 38)
 
Old 05-01-2013, 04:55 AM   #407
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@arthra

Thanks for that arthra. If you have any thoughts/speculations or scripture (Bahai'i or Qur'an) that you think might help explain why so many verses in the Qur'an say "Allah doesn't love _____" I'd appreciate it. That's my main question right now. Is there an explanation why Allah Himself says He doesn't love such and such sinner when He said He DID love such sinners during the time of Christ and the apostles? Or is it not that straighforward? That when the Qur'an says Allah doesn't love so and so it really means something else?

Thanks.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 07:04 AM   #408
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@BlinkeyBill

There is an explanation of why God goes from being harsh to more gentle from OT to NT. Since Baha'is claim that Islam got better from where Christianity was I am asking how that is so given the verses about love in the Bible and Qur'an. Do you feel this an unfair/ unreasonable question? If yes how/why?

From where I stand it does not seem paradoxical. I'm not asking some outlandish "what if" question that probably or never would happen. If you don't know please just say so. There are plenty of things I don't know.
Dear friend this is apparently your test of Faith, you have to understand why.

God does not leave His followers alone after they say "We believe" He tests them to find out their sincerity This idea of lack of love is your test.
From the beginning of time God has clearly stated that He hates the disobedient (deliberate), you can read over and over again through all the Books of God.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #409
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O ye who believe! fear God, and believe in His Apostle: He will give you two portions of His mercy, and will make for you a light for you to walk in, and will forgive you; for God is forgiving, compassionate. That the people of the Book may know that they cannot control aught of God's grace; and that grace is in God's hands, He gives it to whom He will; for God is Lord of mighty grace!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 57 - Iron)

Ask pardon, then, from your Lord, then turn to Him; verily, my Lord is merciful, loving!'

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 11 - Hud)
 
Old 05-01-2013, 04:41 PM   #410
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Dear friend this is apparently your test of Faith, you have to understand why.

God does not leave His followers alone after they say "We believe" He tests them to find out their sincerity This idea of lack of love is your test.
From the beginning of time God has clearly stated that He hates the disobedient (deliberate), you can read over and over again through all the Books of God.
So God left the Christians when they were "on mass" insincere? Will God do this for the bahai when they inevitably corrupt the religion and become insincere?

Last edited by Iconodule; 05-01-2013 at 04:58 PM.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 04:49 PM   #411
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@BlinkeyBill

There is an explanation of why God goes from being harsh to more gentle from OT to NT. Since Baha'is claim that Islam got better from where Christianity was I am asking how that is so given the verses about love in the Bible and Qur'an. Do you feel this an unfair/ unreasonable question? If yes how/why?

From where I stand it does not seem paradoxical. I'm not asking some outlandish "what if" question that probably or never would happen. If you don't know please just say so. There are plenty of things I don't know.
Your question is completely logical, many Baha'is including myself wonder about why God would establish harsh laws in the OT, then apparently "free" the believers in Christ from these laws, then establish again laws that appear nearly as harsh (but not quite) as the laws of Moses with the Revelation of the Quran.

To understand this, we need to consider these points:

1. In religion, God establishes laws that are suited to the needs of the people at the time. When Moses appeared around 1500 BC those laws were needed to establish order, define moral codes, even protect health and hygine. Jews even practiced holy war to displace other peoples (Canaanites, Philistines, etc.) from the Holy Land.

2. By the time of Christ, both Jews and gentiles were living under strict rule of Roman and Greek civilization in the whole Mediterranean region, so the emphasis was on spiritual rather than physical existence. Still, it is a misconception that Christ put an end to religions laws completely. He revealed the spirit of the law, and "fulfilled" the law:

In Matthew 22:36-40: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

As further evidence that Christ did not put an end to religious law for all time , there is in the book of Isaiah: 2:2 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."


3. Muhammad appeared in Arabia, where civilization was at such a low point that people were again in need of religious laws to establish the fundamental structure of society. But the laws of Muhammad also combine the spiritual teachings of Christ with the material and social teachings of Moses. Islam, if properly practiced, fully embraces the teachings of Christ, with no real conflict, except in the view of those who misunderstand the teachings of both Christ and Muhammad. That, in simplest terms shows the progress from Moses to Christ to Muhammad.

4. Of course, there are faithless, wicked and foolish people who have infected, and debased the true Faith of God throughout history. For Jews, it happened several times before Christ (first when Moses was on Mt. Sinai and they made the golden calf). The Pharisees debased Moses teachings at the time of Christ. The Christian Church as had some low points, as well such as the Inquisition, corruption, wars, etc. Islam also had high and low points, and I would say is in a low point right now.

5. There are some aspects of Islamic teachings that I would say are really obsolete. For that matter, for some Christian groups who hold to very traditionalist views (wife must obey husband), those teachings are also obsolete. Actually, the reason why Christianity appears more modern in the west is mainly because Christians have generally let go of many outdated practices from centuries ago, but Muslims are still trying to hold on to theirs. For Jews, there is actually tiny minority in Israel who seriously believe they should reestablish all the laws of the Torah. Most Israelis think they are crazy, it is simply not possible to do that.

6. All of this can lead to a great deal of confusion and conflict. But there is a clear answer. Yes, the old laws are obsolete. They have been replaced by new teachings from Baha'u'llah that fully embody the spiritual teachings of Christ, which are the essence of "the Law and the Prophets", but also provide practical means to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, as Christ foretold.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 05:46 PM   #412
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So God left the Christians when they were "on mass" insincere? Will God do this for the bahai when they inevitably corrupt the religion and become insincere?
Anyone of any religion who is insincere wanders astray from God. And God guides anyone of any religion who is sincere and pure of heart. It is His promise to us, His eternal covenant.

In some cases like Satanism or Scientology that guidance is likely to lead them OUT of the religion fairly quickly. . .

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" - Matthew 7:7
 
Old 05-01-2013, 06:07 PM   #413
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Anyone of any religion who is insincere wanders astray from God. And God guides anyone of any religion who is sincere and pure of heart. It is His promise to us, His eternal covenant.

In some cases like Satanism or Scientology that guidance is likely to lead them OUT of the religion fairly quickly. . .

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" - Matthew 7:7
But since every other religion God has created has failed in the past, the bahai will inevitably fail as well right? Each new religion will fail ad infinitum it seems.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 06:31 PM   #414
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But since every other religion God has created has failed in the past, the bahai will inevitably fail as well right? Each new religion will fail ad infinitum it seems.
None of the religions of God have failed. They each had a purpose in God's plan, and were succeeded by a new revelation when the time came.

Mankind has developed physically, socially and spiritually over thousands, even millions of years. We don't believe that happened by chance. God has always been with us.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 06:36 PM   #415
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None of the religions of God have failed. They each had a purpose in God's plan, and were succeeded by a new revelation when the time came.

Mankind has developed physically, socially and spiritually over thousands, even millions of years. We don't believe that happened by chance. God has always been with us.
No Christianity clearly failed as indicated by the quran constantly condemning Christians for their worship of Christ. We failed by every criteria.

- Worshipped Trinity

- Believed in the phyical ressurection

- Deny current bahai doctrines

It seems to me impossible Christianity has been a success, at least if bahai or islam is true.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 08:57 PM   #416
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No Christianity clearly failed as indicated by the quran constantly condemning Christians for their worship of Christ. We failed by every criteria.

- Worshipped Trinity

- Believed in the phyical ressurection

- Deny current bahai doctrines

It seems to me impossible Christianity has been a success, at least if bahai or islam is true.
Christianity is much more than the doctrines you mention. If you believe in the Trinity and physical resurrection, as most (but not all) Christians do, that fine. You can't prevent those who don't happen to follow those doctrines from also loving and worshiping Him.
 
Old 05-01-2013, 09:08 PM   #417
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Christianity is much more than the doctrines you mention. If you believe in the Trinity and physical resurrection, as most (but not all) Christians do, that fine. You can't prevent those who don't happen to follow those doctrines from also loving and worshiping Him.
Um the physical ressurection, the death of Christ are essential to Christianity. Without them Christianity is nothing. We have fundamentally gone against what Christ confusingly left for us in the bahai understanding. We failed to keep the faith. We failed to recognise what is true and what is false. The gnostics were the true christians it seems and they failed as well, by the mere fact of dying.
 
Old 05-02-2013, 03:21 AM   #418
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Um the physical ressurection, the death of Christ are essential to Christianity. Without them Christianity is nothing. We have fundamentally gone against what Christ confusingly left for us in the bahai understanding. We failed to keep the faith. We failed to recognise what is true and what is false. The gnostics were the true christians it seems and they failed as well, by the mere fact of dying.
We disagree about that. Most Christian authorities (clergy, theologians, the Pope, etc.) certainly do hold that those doctrines are central to Christianity, but are they really central to what Christ taught? You would need to provide scriptural references for that.

Any way, the Baha'i view takes into consideration that such rigid doctrines have always been a barrier to the acceptance of a new revelation from God. The Jews believed and still do that Christian beliefs fundamentally go against the central doctrines of their faith. Christians say they same thing about Muslims, and Muslims say the same thing about Baha'is. Do you see a pattern here?

In the end the religion belongs to God, not theologians. When God speaks again we need to recognize and follow the new message and this allows us to understand the old teachings in a new light. This has happened again and again, it is as clear as day that this is what happens. When you see it that way, there is no conflict.
 
Old 05-02-2013, 12:47 PM   #419
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They are what Christ taught and what those who followed and knew the apostles, that includes Paul, held to. But if you say we have the wrong idea on ressurection, by making it the central point of our faith then you have proved my correct. CHRISTIANS HAVE FAILED AND UTTERLY DESTROYED WHAT JESUS REVEALED! Jesus revealed in reality some form of gnosis, detachment from the body that we should be freed from it, not this icky idea of physically raising from the dead which Christians since the apostle Paul have embraced.

So yes we have failed by every conceivable criteria according the bahai. We do not worship the same God, we have a different opinion that God can redeem his creation (unlike the bahai who say its bound to perpetual death). But don't use this argument which is pointless and avoids any real substance. Oh the Christians just rejected Muhammad like the jews rejected JEsus. Well you have rejected Joseph smith and all of the other prophets? This is a tired argument on the part of bahai which i am fed up with.

Come up with something new and admit that Christians failed. You would be abhored at what Saint Athanasius and all the saints wrote, along with those desciples of Paul and the apostles.
 
Old 05-02-2013, 03:39 PM   #420
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They are what Christ taught and what those who followed and knew the apostles, that includes Paul, held to. But if you say we have the wrong idea on ressurection, by making it the central point of our faith then you have proved my correct. CHRISTIANS HAVE FAILED AND UTTERLY DESTROYED WHAT JESUS REVEALED! Jesus revealed in reality some form of gnosis, detachment from the body that we should be freed from it, not this icky idea of physically raising from the dead which Christians since the apostle Paul have embraced.
The differences really are not as stark as you make them out to be. Let me reassure you that Baha'is do not believe Christians have "utterly destroyed" Christianity. It would show a complete lack of faith to say that anything, let alone the believers, can destroy God's purpose.

The true nature of Christ is very difficult, in fact impossible for anyone but God to comprehend. Any attempt to explain it is bound to fall short. The Trinity is one way of explaining it, three persons, one God. To say that God is exalted above all, the Holy Spirit is an emanation from God, and his Manifestation (Christ) perfectly reflects God's light, such that when you see Christ you see God is another way of explaining the same reality. Baha'is use the second explanation, but clearly the doctrine of the Trinity represents a pious and sincere attempt to explain the nature of God and Christ.

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So yes we have failed by every conceivable criteria according the bahai. We do not worship the same God, we have a different opinion that God can redeem his creation (unlike the bahai who say its bound to perpetual death). But don't use this argument which is pointless and avoids any real substance. Oh the Christians just rejected Muhammad like the jews rejected JEsus. Well you have rejected Joseph smith and all of the other prophets? This is a tired argument on the part of bahai which i am fed up with.
I beg to differ. Although, it is correct we reject Joseph Smith. Not all prophets are true.

But, could you please explain what you mean about being "bound to perpetual death?" Baha'u'llah taught about eternal life. The goal of Baha'is is eternal life, quite the opposite of death.

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Come up with something new and admit that Christians failed. You would be abhored at what Saint Athanasius and all the saints wrote, along with those desciples of Paul and the apostles.
Actually, I am always inspired by what the Saints wrote. I was raised a Catholic, by the way, and attended Parochial school for a few years.
 
Old 05-02-2013, 03:58 PM   #421
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You may not believe that Christians are in error, but when I compare the Bahai beliefs to the Christians and then look at what the Bahais claim, progressive revelation and betterment of theology and morals constantly throughout the ages with no end in sight. I can only but conclude Christians have failed, at least according to bahai. I’ll lay it out formally.

- Christianity holds to many doctrines which contradict Bahai.
- Bahai claim progressive revelation that they have the truth.
- Bahai claim Christians have misunderstood their own scripture and believe in things that are wrong like the deity of Christ and the resurrection. (don’t even attempt to deny you think trinity and resurrection are wrong (and for that matter don’t reinterpret the words to something different than I am using them and say we really agree))
- Therefore Christianity as an enterprise has failed when compared to the truth of bahai. We must have failed sometime in the sixth century when Muhammad burst onto the scene.

This is all granting the assumption for the sake of argument that the Bahai religion is true.

Now it’s interesting that you suggest the Nature of Christ Jesus is nearly impossible to comprehend. From my Trinitarian perspective I can agree, but from your perspective which clearly marks a difference between God and Christ I do not see how this is possible. Has no one seen the son as well as not seen the father? It seems to me you make your manifestations equal to God on everything except authority if that is the case, they aren’t so much mirrors but extensions of God because they are totally indistinguishable from him. Also the bahai as a bahai you cannot accept the trinity as an answer to the relationship between the father the son and the spirit.

So to clarify my position on death, Bahai basically believe in the perpetual death of the universe. God allows his creation to die, to rot and suffer for all eternity with no intention of stopping it, although with the promise of a non physical existence in heaven. Death for the bahai is not the final enemy to be defeated but rather is the friend and companion of God who does his will.

Now I have no doubt you can find merits and titbits of inspiration in the saints, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the consensus amongst the patristic, the saint and likewise of who wrote about God and were Christian, who God is, what resurrection is and various other things. Such things you have to believe are in error as a bahai. Either Christianity has long since been defeated and replaced with the fake Christianity of the Nicene creed or we are the true Christians but have simply neglected what God has revealed and corrupted the faith to the point where a new messenger was needed.
 
Old 05-02-2013, 04:55 PM   #422
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Is Islam more progressive than Christianity?

Getting back to the threads Heading, I think Baha'is will all agree that as Islam was the next religion after Christianity yes it is more progressive.

As for The fruits of Mohammad, lets look.

He brought millions of people to believe in The One God.
He brought these same people to believe in the Holiness of all the former prophets.
His teaching uplifted a people completely immoral and without any spiritual understanding of God and His prophets.
He brought a Book, this is certainly one of His greatest proofs.
He brought these people to unite and stop warring against each other through love of God and His prophets.
He taught them to respect women, before they would bury girl children in devotion to Idols.
He introduced laws to protect women's property, something not in Christianity.
He actually taught to wed only one wife (was preferable) but limited them to four, if they refused to accept they should have only one.
He taught them that there should be no persuasion regarding ones beliefs, they were to respect the people of the book (Jews and Christians).
He taught them if the married one of another faith, they were not to interfere with the others belief and worship.
He taught them that knowledge and education were good, to the degree that people from all over the world came to Islamic schools to learn, of many different sciences.
His Faith spread and is still spreading all over the world.

These are just some of the mighty proofs/fruits of Mohammad.
That His followers do not always follow His teachings takes nothing away from His Message. People of all faiths can be accused of failing to follow correctly their Messengers sent by God, Yes even Baha'i's. None of this changes the fact of God's unfolding wish that all men be united in friendship and brotherhood, one people living in one country, the Earth. Loving and praising God, our creator.

To argue about who has the truth is not only a waste of time, but completely against the teachings of God. That many do not like the thought that their Messenger is not the last, the best, the only, is only a matter of ego of certain believers who refuse to accept God's ways being different from man's.
Look to the parable of the Vineyard a perfect example of progressive revelation.

If people refuse to accept the message of God, leave them to their belief, for argument and refusal to believe anyone's belief is non productive, and goes no were, only angry words.

Loving regards to all, may God guide your steps.

Last edited by BlinkeyBill; 05-02-2013 at 04:57 PM. Reason: adding more
 
Old 05-02-2013, 06:15 PM   #423
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You forgot to mention aggressive islamic expansion into Christian lands and the strict legalism which Christ and the apostles were against.
 
Old 05-03-2013, 04:44 AM   #424
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God can redeem his creation (unlike the bahai who say its [sic] bound to perpetual death).
Sigh.

Yet another lie.

The Baha'i Faith is IN NO WAY bound to or obsessed with death, as this quote (among many others) demonstrates:

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions
, pp. 273-274.
Just the facts.

Bruce
 
Old 05-03-2013, 11:09 AM   #425
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My Body is doomed to die it can never be ressurected within Bahai theology, nor can the body of anyone. The Physical world is doomed to death as admitted by the very thing you quoted. "Before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state..." Death reigns supreme in bahai and is not the enemy, it is a liberator of the prison of our bodies.
 
Old 05-03-2013, 08:12 PM   #426
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On death...

"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust."

Psalms 104:29

.................................................. ................

32. O SON OF THE SUPREME!

I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?


(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)



"Be not grieved at the death of thy dear daughter. This divine bird flew away to the rose-garden of the Merciful and that plant of humanity hastened to the garden of the Kingdom of El-ABHA. That drop returned to the Most Great Sea and that ray betook herself to the Most Great Orb. Be happy and thankful because thou wilt see her face shining in the divine Kingdom and wilt find her as a lamp amid an assembly in the spiritual heaven."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 179)

I became very sad upon hearing the news of the death of Mr. . . . . . . . . . but I implored and entreated the Threshold of Oneness and I sought mercy in his behalf. Convey my greeting and love to his son and say: "Do thou not lament on account of the death of thy father. Trust thou in God. Rely upon the Kingdom of ABHA. That father of thine hastened to the world of immortality and took a share from the realm of the Merciful and with the utmost joy hath attained to eternal life in the everlasting universe. Walk thou also in the footsteps of thy father and be characterized with his attributes and qualities. Enkindle thou his lamp and fructify his garden, so that thou mayest become his real son and worthy of the favors and gift of the Almighty." ***

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 153)
 
Old 05-04-2013, 04:36 AM   #427
Jcc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconodule View Post
My Body is doomed to die it can never be ressurected within Bahai theology, nor can the body of anyone. The Physical world is doomed to death as admitted by the very thing you quoted. "Before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state..." Death reigns supreme in bahai and is not the enemy, it is a liberator of the prison of our bodies.
To be clear, Baha'i do value physical life, it is an important part of God's plan for humans and should not be wasted, should be cultivated, improved and extended, but we believe eternal life refers to the spirit not the body.

As I understand it, and you can enlighten us further about this, different Christian denominations have different teachings about resurrection and eternal life of the body. The group I am most familiar with that believes the body can last forever on earth are the Jehovah's Witnesses. I thought most Christians believed in physical resurrection as a prelude to final judgement, and then the believers go to heaven, not hang around on earth forever.

Baha'is certainly do not believe that the physical body can or should last forever. That would go against the agreement of science and religion, among other things. We are not to believe things that are contradicted by clear scientific and logical proofs.

The sun will last another 20 billion years and then burn out. How can humans live on earth forever with no sun? Also, most people's understanding of human life is that we marry and have children. If that continued while people lived physically forever, you can imagine what it would do to the population. If there are no new children born, then what happens to those who are children at the time of Judgement, do they stay children forever, or do they grow to young adulthood and stay that way? What about those who are elderly, do they stay elderly, or revert to being young adults? If you believe that the physical body is intended by God to last forever, perhaps you can explain how this would work.

I believe that all stages of life, birth, childhood, adulthood, old age and death have a purpose and are part of God's plan for us. Where the Bible talks about defeating death, it means that our spirit lives on. Any other explanation leads to untenable situations, and would deprive us of the full blessings of life.

Last edited by Jcc; 05-04-2013 at 08:15 AM. Reason: additions
 
Old 05-04-2013, 05:05 PM   #428
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How can the physical body be good in bahai when it only holds us back from actual spiritual reality? You can say its good but Im convinced that it makes much sense in terms of things said in your religion elsewhere.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #429
Jcc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconodule View Post
How can the physical body be good in bahai when it only holds us back from actual spiritual reality? You can say its good but Im convinced that it makes much sense in terms of things said in your religion elsewhere.
It is good because that is how we have our beginning. Without being born into a physical body we would not exist. Also, many positive things can happen in our earthly life, and we have the opportunity to love and have a positive effect on others. We learn to love and to develop spiritual qualities.
 
Old 05-05-2013, 02:18 AM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconodule View Post
You can say its good but Im convinced that it makes much sense in terms of things said in your religion elsewhere.
You are projecting your own speculations onto the Bahais, rather than studying the Bahai teachings or listening to what Bahais say.

Abdu'l-Baha writes:

Quote:
Know thou that every soul is fashioned after the nature of God, each being pure and holy at his birth. Afterwards, however, the individuals will vary according to what they acquire of virtues or vices in this world. Although all existent beings are in their very nature created in ranks or degrees, for capacities are various, nevertheless every individual is born holy and pure, and only thereafter may he become defiled.

And further, although the degrees of being are various, yet all are good. Observe the human body, its limbs, its members, the eye, the ear, the organs of smell, of taste, the hands, the fingernails. Notwithstanding the differences among all these parts, each one within the limitations of its own being participateth in a coherent whole. If one of them faileth it must be healed, and should no remedy avail, that part must be removed.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 190)
 
Old 05-05-2013, 01:57 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
It is good because that is how we have our beginning. Without being born into a physical body we would not exist. Also, many positive things can happen in our earthly life, and we have the opportunity to love and have a positive effect on others. We learn to love and to develop spiritual qualities.
All of those qualities can exist independant of the body, rather without the bodies and passions associated with it, it seems we might do better.
 
Old 05-05-2013, 01:57 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
You are projecting your own speculations onto the Bahais, rather than studying the Bahai teachings or listening to what Bahais say.

Abdu'l-Baha writes:
Well he did say those things but within the context of bahai religion it doesnt make any sense to me.
 
Old 05-05-2013, 02:12 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconodule View Post
All of those qualities can exist independant of the body, rather without the bodies and passions associated with it, it seems we might do better.
Maybe, but that is how God chose to make us. We need to be humble and accept that God's wisdom is greater than ours.
 
Old 05-05-2013, 08:58 PM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcc View Post
Maybe, but that is how God chose to make us. We need to be humble and accept that God's wisdom is greater than ours.
That is the Key my Friend - God "Doeth as He Willeth" and shall not be asked of His Doings!

IMHO - The greatest knowledge that man can admit to, is that He knows nothing on His own. All knowledge is of God! We must be very thank full for this magnificent Bounty.

Regards Tony
 
Old 05-07-2013, 07:36 AM   #435
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@BlinkeyBill
“Dear friend this is apparently your test of Faith, you have to understand why.

God does not leave His followers alone after they say "We believe" He tests them to find out their sincerity This idea of lack of love is your test.
From the beginning of time God has clearly stated that He hates the disobedient (deliberate), you can read over and over again through all the Books of God.”

Well if you could provide the book(s) of the Bible, chapter(s) and verse(s) BB that would be great because the closest thing I’ve found is:

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

#1 Esau was OT not NT.

#2 One can love AND hate someone/something at the same time. The word “hatred” here is: miseō From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

It’s likely (my opinion) that God loved Esau LESS but it does not mention an absence of love as the Qur’an does numerous times.

#3 The context of this passage is birthright and God’s prerogative to show mercy and blessing, that it was NOT about works (verse 11). Contrast that to the Qur’an where it is VERY much about works and or abstaining from various sins.

If God is testing me it hardly seems like it to me BB my friend. You make many assertions about what the Bible and Qur’an say while providing little to no scripture. Please reference scripture for your opinions in future posts
 
Old 05-07-2013, 07:38 AM   #436
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@arthra
“O ye who believe! fear God, and believe in His Apostle: He will give you two portions of His mercy, and will make for you a light for you to walk in, and will forgive you; for God is forgiving, compassionate. That the people of the Book may know that they cannot control aught of God's grace; and that grace is in God's hands, He gives it to whom He will; for God is Lord of mighty grace!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 57 - Iron)

Ask pardon, then, from your Lord, then turn to Him; verily, my Lord is merciful, loving!'

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 11 - Hud)”

Ummm well thank you in general for your reply. I don’t think this equates love on Allah’s part because He is compassionate and forgiving at times to some and not others. There are silly people in just about every faith but I’ve never met any Christian who thought they “controlled” God’s grace or anything else of His. We do believe the Bible when it says God GIVES grace freely and abundantly but we’re under no illusions about who’s in charge.

The 2nd verse sounds conditional don’t you think? “Ask pardon, THEN, from your Lord, THEN turn to Him; verily, my Lord is merciful, loving!” Seems contingent upon the “thens” don’t you think? I never said Allah didn’t love at all or under certain circumstances, just not consistently and unconditionally like the God of the Bible. Or do you disagree?
 
Old 05-07-2013, 07:38 AM   #437
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Posts: 228
@arthra
“O ye who believe! fear God, and believe in His Apostle: He will give you two portions of His mercy, and will make for you a light for you to walk in, and will forgive you; for God is forgiving, compassionate. That the people of the Book may know that they cannot control aught of God's grace; and that grace is in God's hands, He gives it to whom He will; for God is Lord of mighty grace!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 57 - Iron)

Ask pardon, then, from your Lord, then turn to Him; verily, my Lord is merciful, loving!'

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 11 - Hud)”

Ummm well thank you in general for your reply. I don’t think this equates love on Allah’s part because He is compassionate and forgiving at times to some and not others. There are silly people in just about every faith but I’ve never met any Christian who thought they “controlled” God’s grace or anything else of His. We do believe the Bible when it says God GIVES grace freely and abundantly but we’re under no illusions about who’s in charge.

The 2nd verse sounds conditional don’t you think? “Ask pardon, THEN, from your Lord, THEN turn to Him; verily, my Lord is merciful, loving!” Seems contingent upon the “thens” don’t you think? I never said Allah didn’t love at all or under certain circumstances, just not consistently and unconditionally like the God of the Bible. Or do you disagree?
 
Old 05-07-2013, 07:43 AM   #438
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From: Missouri
Posts: 228
@BlinkeyBill

“He brought millions of people to believe in The One God.”

As did Christianity and Judaism then and through the ages AFTER Islam came around. At best that is a mutual point not a progressive one.

“He brought these same people to believe in the Holiness of all the former prophets.”

Ehhhh yes and no… He gave a very distorted version of Biblical figures in many cases ESPECIALLY Christ. Muhammad taught his followers that Jesus didn’t even get crucified.

157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 4 - Women)

I’ve read that the Baha’i interpretation of this is that he was saying they didn’t TRULY kill or crucify Christ inwardly.

"Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the 'Qur'án' in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the Divine reality in Him."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 497)

Let’s say for the moment that when Jesus cried “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” it didn’t reflect his relationship with his Father (course you know I disagree in reality ) How was Christ NOT figuratively crucified then?

“The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body;”
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 103)

If all that does not constitute a “figurative” crucifixion what would and why?

“His teaching uplifted a people completely immoral and without any spiritual understanding of God and His prophets.”

I’d agree it did uplift to a degree but not to the higher degree of Christianity. In Islam a husband is permitted and instructed to hit his wife if he fears rebellion (it need not be proven, examined or consulted with others). While in Christianity a husband is told: Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

None but a few funny fellows hit themselves when they sin. Paul instructs husbands to transfer the instinct they have to take care of their own bodies over to the care of their wives. Muhammad does not.

“He brought a Book, this is certainly one of His greatest proofs.”

A book that disagrees on the life events of numerous persons (doctrine besides) of previous holy books from which it claims has the same author (God ). A book that tells numerous stories of Moses but omits something akin to 1Corinthians 13. Since God says He IS LOVE and allegedly this is a progressive book why include so many redundant things but omit this? Or is the nature of love not quite that important? Islam is certainly big on duty and submission, not so much love it seems.

“He brought these people to unite and stop warring against each other through love of God and His prophets.”

That might be true SOME of the time but read the Baha’i Biography “The Life of Muhammad” by H.M. Balyuzi and even he will tell you that is was far from kumbaya that Islam bought it’s “unity”. There was a lot of blood, fear, greed, raiding and manipulation. Read for yourself. If you doubt this I’ll be happy to provide you some quotes from the book you can dig into on Ocean.

“He taught them to respect women, before they would bury girl children in devotion to Idols.”

The treatment of women may have improved from where it had been, but not to the standards set in Christianity.

“He introduced laws to protect women's property, something not in Christianity.”

Sorry, you’re mistaken and if you want to contend this I’ll go into detail next time.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

“He taught them that there should be no persuasion regarding ones beliefs, they were to respect the people of the book (Jews and Christians).”

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Are you telling me that you don’t call THAT compulsion!?

“He taught them if the married one of another faith, they were not to interfere with the others belief and worship.”

Depending on what surah you’re referring to that was likely abrogated by the verse in surah 4 that allows you to beat your wife if you fear rebellion. “Dear wife you are rebelling against me and Allah by not converting to Islam, therefore I am within my rights to strike you.”

“He taught them that knowledge and education were good, to the degree that people from all over the world came to Islamic schools to learn, of many different sciences.”

Okay, so did/does Christianity. So do atheists today. And?

“His Faith spread and is still spreading all over the world.”

Often times it’s not a pretty spread…. It continues to do so through violence and fear. Granted not always, but often.
You have still failed to explain how a God who decided to go from loving sinners unconditionally to conditionally is progressive.

 
Old 05-07-2013, 07:44 AM   #439
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Joined: Nov 2012
From: Missouri
Posts: 228
@BlinkeyBill

“He brought millions of people to believe in The One God.”

As did Christianity and Judaism then and through the ages AFTER Islam came around. At best that is a mutual point not a progressive one.

“He brought these same people to believe in the Holiness of all the former prophets.”

Ehhhh yes and no… He gave a very distorted version of Biblical figures in many cases ESPECIALLY Christ. Muhammad taught his followers that Jesus didn’t even get crucified.

157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 4 - Women)

I’ve read that the Baha’i interpretation of this is that he was saying they didn’t TRULY kill or crucify Christ inwardly.

"Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the 'Qur'án' in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the Divine reality in Him."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 19, 1938)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 497)

Let’s say for the moment that when Jesus cried “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” it didn’t reflect his relationship with his Father (course you know I disagree in reality ) How was Christ NOT figuratively crucified then?

“The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body;”
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 103)

If all that does not constitute a “figurative” crucifixion what would and why?

“His teaching uplifted a people completely immoral and without any spiritual understanding of God and His prophets.”

I’d agree it did uplift to a degree but not to the higher degree of Christianity. In Islam a husband is permitted and instructed to hit his wife if he fears rebellion (it need not be proven, examined or consulted with others). While in Christianity a husband is told: Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

None but a few funny fellows hit themselves when they sin. Paul instructs husbands to transfer the instinct they have to take care of their own bodies over to the care of their wives. Muhammad does not.

“He brought a Book, this is certainly one of His greatest proofs.”

A book that disagrees on the life events of numerous persons (doctrine besides) of previous holy books from which it claims has the same author (God ). A book that tells numerous stories of Moses but omits something akin to 1Corinthians 13. Since God says He IS LOVE and allegedly this is a progressive book why include so many redundant things but omit this? Or is the nature of love not quite that important? Islam is certainly big on duty and submission, not so much love it seems.

“He brought these people to unite and stop warring against each other through love of God and His prophets.”

That might be true SOME of the time but read the Baha’i Biography “The Life of Muhammad” by H.M. Balyuzi and even he will tell you that is was far from kumbaya that Islam bought it’s “unity”. There was a lot of blood, fear, greed, raiding and manipulation. Read for yourself. If you doubt this I’ll be happy to provide you some quotes from the book you can dig into on Ocean.

“He taught them to respect women, before they would bury girl children in devotion to Idols.”

The treatment of women may have improved from where it had been, but not to the standards set in Christianity.

“He introduced laws to protect women's property, something not in Christianity.”

Sorry, you’re mistaken and if you want to contend this I’ll go into detail next time.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

“He taught them that there should be no persuasion regarding ones beliefs, they were to respect the people of the book (Jews and Christians).”

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Are you telling me that you don’t call THAT compulsion!?

“He taught them if the married one of another faith, they were not to interfere with the others belief and worship.”

Depending on what surah you’re referring to that was likely abrogated by the verse in surah 4 that allows you to beat your wife if you fear rebellion. “Dear wife you are rebelling against me and Allah by not converting to Islam, therefore I am within my rights to strike you.”

“He taught them that knowledge and education were good, to the degree that people from all over the world came to Islamic schools to learn, of many different sciences.”

Okay, so did/does Christianity. So do atheists today. And?

“His Faith spread and is still spreading all over the world.”

Often times it’s not a pretty spread…. It continues to do so through violence and fear. Granted not always, but often.
You have still failed to explain how a God who decided to go from loving sinners unconditionally to conditionally is progressive.

 
Old 05-07-2013, 08:27 AM   #440
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I think the Baha'i interpretation of that statement in the Quran (along with Sufis, Shakis and some other Muslim groups) is that the reality of Christ can never be crucified or killed. One can put to death a body, one cannot kill the soul within it.
 
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