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Old 05-17-2013, 10:23 AM   #521
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Daniel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@dale ramsdell

Heya dale sorry it’s taken me a while to get back with you. Part of it is that I am less familiar with Daniel and Revelation than a lot of other books of the Bible. I gather that you’re saying there is some kind of fulfillment in Islam with these dates you mention. If you could provide the specific material (Bible and/or Baha’i) you’re drawing from so I can look more deeply into it that would be great.

As far as the UHJ goes I somewhat agree that women while equal serve in different functions. Unless it’s a rare/desperate circumstance it’s my belief that women should not be pastors generally (but there are those “Deborah” times). Although from a Baha’i point of view it still seems a bit odd… ah well.
I am having to go to work shortly and cannot do justice at the moment to the theme of time prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. Briefly, the Adventist Movement, based upon the research of William Miller, and many others, actually, calculated the time prophecies of the 2300 days (years) of Daniel and the 70 weeks (70 X 7 =490) of years from the same starting point. This was 457 BC from the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild the Temple.
In 70 weeks the Messiah (Jesus) would be "cut off", or crucified. This would be roughly around 34 AD, the date of Jesus' crucifixion. The 2300 minus 457 is 1843, the date of Miller's first prophecy fulfillment date. However, there was no year "zero" and 1844 was determined to be the date.
There are other prophecies in Daniel and Revelation regarding time, times, and a half. Each time = 360 days, and each day is a year. So time, 360, times 720, and a half 180 means 1260. Revelation also speaks of it as 42 months (of 30 days each) = 1260
Briefly, the conclusion is that since 1260 AH = 1844 AD, either there is a link between the Islamic Dispensation which intersects the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, to which Jesus referred: "When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place." This was in reply to the question posed by his disciples in Matthew 24:2 "When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and the end of the age?"
More on that later when time permits.

As to the women on the Universal House of Justice, with no offense intended towards women (I love my mom and my sister and my four daughters and their mother dearly), I wonder what would occur in the consultations if all 9 members were women? ... ;-)
 
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:46 PM   #522
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@BlinkeyBill

“Yes I suppose you are right I should not have re-entered this circle of discussion that I see going no where, that others appear to want to play your game is up to them, as individual Baha'is we do not have the right to tell others what they should do.”

Well I hope you mean that THIS time. But given you posted again only a handful of minutes later it would appear you are still struggling with double mindedness. If and when you’re able to communicate with me in a manner similar to LuL, Jcc, Dale and many others please come back, it will be good to have you. (I really mean that).

But please don't respond just to "get back". Do so only if it's positive. I have been guilty of being double minded (and a fool) and I almost certainly will be again, I don't say these things to egg you on. I want this discussion not to be toxic and I think left unchecked Bill that is where it would go.
 
Old 05-17-2013, 03:48 PM   #523
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@InvestigateTruth

"Jesus replied, "All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. Anyone who doesn't love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me." John 14:24

The above to me means, recieving God's Love is conditional upon Loving Him and obeying Him.”

Hey long time no post! Good to see you

I can agree with that to a degree. But again there is a big difference between receiving God’s love and it not being there TO receive.

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

(children of the Hightest – like Father like son… or daughter We are to love like our Father does. )

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Our acceptance of God’s love/obedience does not change the fact that’s it’s always there whether we sin or not according the Bible.

So the Qur’an says God is always near to us but we withdraw from Him. Okay I can see that. But I am sure that nearness doesn’t always equate love. Unless you have some other explanation the Qur’an says that while God is close to us we choose to be far from Him (at times) it also says that when we commit various sins He does not love us. If the Qur’an is true then it seems one can be close yet not close to God who does not love us while we commit various sins. Being close need not mean it’s pleasant or loving. Is that an unfair summation?
 
Old 05-17-2013, 04:56 PM   #524
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@SenMcGlinn

"Sequentially: he tells them first to admonish their wives, then
refuse to share their beds, then withdraw from them, then (next
verse) appoint arbiters from the families. That is a logical progression"

I wanted to let you know that after it's had some time to sink in I can't say you're wrong. Not certain you're right but you've helped me to see this verse in a new light. Any thoughts on the Allah does not love verses?

I guess one reason I still feel uncertain is that so many Muslim scholars think otherwise and many Muslim marriages practice otherwise (the wives are physically hurt).

Last edited by Some Further Questions; 05-17-2013 at 04:59 PM. Reason: additional thought
 
Old 05-17-2013, 05:01 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@BlinkeyBill

“Yes I suppose you are right I should not have re-entered this circle of discussion that I see going no where, that others appear to want to play your game is up to them, as individual Baha'is we do not have the right to tell others what they should do.”

Well I hope you mean that THIS time. But given you posted again only a handful of minutes later it would appear you are still struggling with double mindedness. If and when you’re able to communicate with me in a manner similar to LuL, Jcc, Dale and many others please come back, it will be good to have you. (I really mean that).

But please don't respond just to "get back". Do so only if it's positive. I have been guilty of being double minded (and a fool) and I almost certainly will be again, I don't say these things to egg you on. I want this discussion not to be toxic and I think left unchecked Bill that is where it would go.
I am sorry but when someone posts to me I feel in all politeness I must respond, which I did, and you accuse me of responding a second time, but I feel I only responded once, one to you and one to your friend.

I never repond as you say just to get back, I will repeat myself I respond from politeness. The same as if someone sent me a letter I would have to respond, I know that many people in this day and age do not, they probably think me an outdated dinosaur.
And I only know how to respond as myself, I do not try to imitate others, so sorry about that.
And I would not be the one to go toxic as you say, I have replied to comments made to me, I consider with great restraint and politeness.

Now you say your mother is a Baha'i, I trust everyone here considers this important fact, for if your loving mother can't change your outlook how are we poor Baha'is expected to compete with your mother :-)
So again I question your reason to be here, if not to just stir the pot.
For you say that you wish for people to debate paragraph and verse with you, to convince you, well how is that going to happen?
You have to understand that to be knowledgeable in the scriptures does not guarantee anything, after all the disciples (mostly) could not read and write, so their knowledge of scripture would not be as great as those who denied and debated with Jesus. As in the Baha'i writings a humble blacksmith was able to make a disbeliever in Baha'u'llah decide to investigate more and he became a firm believer. Of course he had the blessing of going to the source of truth.

I wish you well my friend, and please pass on my best wishes to your mother.
I think it is wiser to withdraw, so I will not trouble you again, in this thread. :-)
 
Old 05-17-2013, 05:48 PM   #526
Jcc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@Jcc

But Jcc my friend you know what you’re not going to find anywhere in the NT? That God stops loving people because they sinned. You DO find that in the Qur’an, over and over…. And over. With all due respect you (nor anyone else) has been able to explain those verses about Allah not loving.

The God of the Qur’an is so different that the God of the Bible don’t you think? In the Bible God’s love is unconditional and God presents Himself as our Father.
Not quite. The Bible is both the Old and New Testaments. You are right about the New Testament only, not the Old Testament.

I basically accept your premise that the New Testament talks about God's love in a way that is superior to both the Old Testament and the Quran. I just did a word search for "love" through the entire Old Testament as I had previously done for the Quran and nowhere does it talk in terms of God loving sinners. It is actually very similar to the Quran in how it talks about those who God loves and hates and why. So, it appears that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the Quran. Of course in your rhetoric you claim categorically of Allah "not loving." That is neither accurate nor fair, unless you believe that Yahweh "did not love" in the Old Testament.

On the other hand, the teachings of Jesus are more similar to the Teachings of Baha'u'llah. You can download Interfaith Explorer (free), and search through Baha'u'llah's writings for the word "Love" in a similar way if you like. For Baha'u'llah, God's love is always there, it is the cause of our being, it is our heavenly home, and we are invited to partake of it, if we don't then we lose out. Like closing your eyes and blocking out the sun does not make the sun disappear.

These quotes are from the Arabic Hidden Words:
" I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee," [3]
"I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life." [4]
"Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not." [6]
"Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee." [5]
"My love has made in thee its home, it cannot be concealed. My light is manifest to thee, it cannot be obscured." [20]

Certainly, you believe that the God of the Old testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, correct? So you can't reject the Quran simply because it is is similar to the Old Testament. You can reasonably question why it would be necessary to return to Old Testament teachings after Christ already appeared, but there is an explanation, if you are open to it.

What about Baha'i teachings on Love?


-JCC

Last edited by Jcc; 05-17-2013 at 06:02 PM.
 
Old 05-17-2013, 07:27 PM   #527
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For the Love of God

So the Qur’an says God is always near to us but we withdraw from Him. Okay I can see that. But I am sure that nearness doesn’t always equate love. Unless you have some other explanation the Qur’an says that while God is close to us we choose to be far from Him (at times) it also says that when we commit various sins He does not love us. If the Qur’an is true then it seems one can be close yet not close to God who does not love us while we commit various sins. Being close need not mean it’s pleasant or loving. Is that an unfair summation?[/QUOTE]

Friends, let us assume for a minute that we are all little seeds in a garden, squabbling over details when the sun is shining. It is the sun which lovingly provides our life-giving light as a necessary nutrient for our being.
If, after 13 years of persecution and humiliation, which Muhammad and His followers endured, it is such that finally, and in complete submission all of this time to the will of God, the Angel Gabriel appeared to the Prophet and said, "Take up the sword and defend the faithful.", how is that different than the acts of David and others in the Old Testament?
And if, when my own dear mother had cancer, the doctor finally took up the scalpel and defended my mother from the tumors in her brain, was that not out of love?
For the cancer cells have already condemned themselves to extinction. They are trying to drag the body down with them. That is the manner of their dysfunction. They doom and condemn themselves.
So God, through the Instrument of a Divine Physician, heals the body politic of mankind, establishing order, with liberty and justice for all. Amen
 
Old 05-17-2013, 07:30 PM   #528
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Christian women

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@SenMcGlinn

"Sequentially: he tells them first to admonish their wives, then
refuse to share their beds, then withdraw from them, then (next
verse) appoint arbiters from the families. That is a logical progression"

I wanted to let you know that after it's had some time to sink in I can't say you're wrong. Not certain you're right but you've helped me to see this verse in a new light. Any thoughts on the Allah does not love verses?

I guess one reason I still feel uncertain is that so many Muslim scholars think otherwise and many Muslim marriages practice otherwise (the wives are physically hurt).
And Christian women in this country, the US, could not own property or vote. Why? Because of how they interpreted the Bible, which the men saw as giving them supremacy over women, and blacks, and Chinese, and Indians, and...
 
Old 05-17-2013, 07:47 PM   #529
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And yet they are given that right, can the same be said of islamic countries mr dale who are still far behind anything in the west? I will tell you that it was not Christianity that held women back it was holdovers in western pagan society that held women back, Christianity gave more liberty to women than they ever had before in greek pagan society or current islamic society. The only option for a woman in islam is to get married, they cannot remain celibate for the sake of God and this too seems also the case in Bahai.
 
Old 05-17-2013, 07:47 PM   #530
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JCC. You start out with the belief that the oneness of God is only in his person, not in the substance that is divinity. Maybe if you had a more open view (which would be heretical to bahai even if you refuse the idea heresy exists) you would come to the conclusion of trinity? See what I did there? You have preconceptions which exclude other ideas as well. You want to emphasise in spite of all of the evidence of just plain contradiction that at the core our religions agree, that all religions (that is the ones you feel are revealed agree). I don’t say this to be mean but this is self delusion, you need to recognise claims and people contradict each other.

For instance the quran says there would be a faithful remnant of Christians to the last days, the day of resurrection (which bahai cannot interpret to have been Christ’s resurrection), yet we are stuck with the historical problem (for bahai and islam) of no group matching the beliefs of either islam or bahai that can be traced to the apostles and to be found existing. Take in mind that’s me being liberal, the quran says they will also be victorius over those who disbelieve, so victorius I might add that there is no trace of them existing. This is a deep problem not only for Islam but also for bahai and I have in the mind of this that Muhammad (whom I suggest was ignorant on a vast amount of subjects) had in thought the roman empire which to his day still existed in the east.) This is but only one example that could be brought up.

Blinkeybill. By the mere definition of our faiths we find our Gods not to be one in the same. Christ says whoever denies me, I will deny them. This is key for the Christian, we must acknowledge who God is, God is trinity, three persons one in substance and undivided. Bahai exclude Christ from divinity and say he is some eternal spirit who mirrors God but is not God but that one cannot possibly distinguish from God if such a definition is to be believed. Our definitions, our creeds exclude each other. You cannot agree with the creed and I cannot agree with what you say concerning God.
Concerning also the trinity in scripture we could have such a discussion and I have brought up evidences in the past which you have no addressed or just outright ignored. One of my key suggestions would be to read the works of scholars and the patristics on this matter and see how John (undeniably) says Christ is God in the very first verse of his gospel. Particular fathers I would recommend is Athanasius, John Chrysostom and Saint Gregory of Naziansus and then I would recommend NT Wright for a scholarly defense that Christ was God in the new testament from our modern times.

I will provide but one example to show Christ is God and greater than all of your so called manifestations. First I will ask you, are all the manifestations equal? Then I will point out that in the epistle to the Hebrews Moses is mentioned as great servant of God but that Christ is “counted more worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built all things is God. And Moses was indeed faithful in all his house as a servent, for a testimony of things which would be spoken afterwards, But Christ as a son over his own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.” Moses was faithful because he served God and Christ is found greater than moses in that God built all things. Did Your God ever say to Mirza Hussain “Your throne O God is forever.”? Has anyone been baptised in the name of Mirza Hussain, the holy spirit and the father?

Can Mirza Hussain like Jesus Christ be said to be without sin? Is Mirza Hussain the only mediator between God and man? Who is greater? Christ or Mirza Hussain?
 
Old 05-17-2013, 10:44 PM   #531
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[QUOTE=Some Further Questions;42243]@dale ramsdell

Heya dale sorry it’s taken me a while to get back with you. Part of it is that I am less familiar with Daniel and Revelation than a lot of other books of the Bible. I gather that you’re saying there is some kind of fulfillment in Islam with these dates you mention. If you could provide the specific material (Bible and/or Baha’i) you’re drawing from so I can look more deeply into it that would be great.

I am very tired from a long day, but this should help as per discussion

This is from some Answered Questions by Abdul Baha"

11: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN

45
In the beginning of the eleventh chapter of the Revelation of St. John it is said:
“And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
“But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”
This reed is a Perfect Man Who is likened to a reed, and the manner of its likeness is this: when the interior of a reed is empty and free from all matter, it will produce beautiful melodies; and as the sound and melodies do not come from the reed, but from the flute player who blows upon it, so the sanctified heart of that blessed Being is free and emptied from all save God, pure and exempt from the attachments of all human conditions, and is the companion of the Divine Spirit. Whatever He utters is not from Himself, but from the real flute player, and it is a divine inspiration. That is why He is likened to a reed; and that reed is like a rod—that is to say, it is the helper of every impotent one, and the support of human beings. It is the rod of the Divine Shepherd by which He guards His flock and leads them about the pastures of the Kingdom.
Then it is said: “The angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that 46 worship therein”—that is to say, compare and measure: measuring is the discovery of proportion. Thus the angel said: compare the temple of God and the altar and them that are praying therein—that is to say, investigate what is their true condition and discover in what degree and state they are, and what conditions, perfections, behavior and attributes they possess; and make yourself cognizant of the mysteries of those holy souls who dwell in the Holy of Holies in purity and sanctity.
“But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles.”
In the beginning of the seventh century after Christ, when Jerusalem was conquered, the Holy of Holies was outwardly preserved—that is to say, the house which Solomon built; but outside the Holy of Holies the outer court was taken and given to the Gentiles. “And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months”—that is to say, the Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur’án. For in the texts of the Holy Book, each day is a year; as it is said in the fourth chapter of Ezekiel, verse 6: “Thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
This prophesies the duration of the Dispensation of Islám when Jerusalem was trodden under foot, which means that it lost its glory—but the Holy of Holies was preserved, guarded and respected—until the year 1260. This twelve hundred and sixty years is a prophecy of the manifestation of the Báb, the “Gate” of Bahá’u’lláh, which took place in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muḥammad, and as the period of twelve hundred and sixty years has expired, Jerusalem, the Holy City, is now beginning to become prosperous, populous and flourishing. Anyone 47 who saw Jerusalem sixty years ago, and who sees it now, will recognize how populous and flourishing it has become, and how it is again honored.
This is the outward meaning of these verses of the Revelation of St. John; but they have another explanation and a symbolic sense, which is as follows: the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muḥammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.
Thus among the Jews, at the end of the cycle of Moses, which coincides with the Christian manifestation, the Law of God disappeared, only a form without spirit remaining. The Holy of Holies departed from among them, but the outer court of Jerusalem—which is the expression used for the form of the religion—fell into the hands of the Gentiles. In the same way, the fundamental principles of the religion of Christ, which are the greatest virtues of humanity, have disappeared; and its form has remained in the hands of the clergy and the priests. Likewise, the foundation of the religion of Muḥammad has disappeared, 48 but its form remains in the hands of the official ‘ulamá.
These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.
The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.
Briefly, what is meant by the term Holy of Holies is that spiritual Law which will never be modified, altered or abrogated; and the Holy City means the material Law which may be abrogated; and this material Law, which is described as the Holy City, was to be trodden under foot for twelve hundred and sixty years.
“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth.” 1 These two witnesses are Muḥammad the Messenger of God, and ‘Alí, son of Abú Tálib.
In the Qur’án it is said that God addressed Muḥammad, the Messenger of God, saying: “We made You a Witness, a Herald of good news, and a Warner”—that is to say, We have established Thee as the witness, the giver of good tidings, and as One bringing the wrath of God. 2 The meaning of “a witness” is one by whose testimony things may be verified. The commands of these two witnesses were to be performed for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day signifying a year. Now, Muḥammad was the 49 root, and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they “are clothed in sackcloth,” meaning that they, apparently, were to be clothed in old raiment, not in new raiment; in other words, in the beginning they would possess no splendor in the eyes of the people, nor would their Cause appear new; for Muḥammad’s spiritual Law corresponds to that of Christ in the Gospel, and most of His laws relating to material things correspond to those of the Pentateuch. This is the meaning of the old raiment.
Then it is said: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” 3 These two souls are likened to olive trees because at that time all lamps were lighted by olive oil. The meaning is two persons from whom that spirit of the wisdom of God, which is the cause of the illumination of the world, appears. These lights of God were to radiate and shine; therefore, they are likened to two candlesticks: the candlestick is the abode of the light, and from it the light shines forth. In the same way the light of guidance would shine and radiate from these illumined souls.
Then it is said: “They are standing before God,” meaning that they are standing in the service of God, and educating the creatures of God, such as the barbarous nomad Arab tribes of the Arabian peninsula, whom they educated in such a way that in those days they reached the highest degree of civilization, and their fame and renown became worldwide.
“And if any man would hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.” 4 That is to say, that no one would be able to withstand them, that if a person wished to belittle their teachings and their law, he would be surrounded and exterminated by this same law which proceedeth out of their mouth; and everyone who attempted to injure, to antagonize and to hate them would 50 be destroyed by a command which would come out of their mouth. And thus it happened: all their enemies were vanquished, put to flight and annihilated. In this most evident way God assisted them.
Afterward it is said: “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy,” 5 meaning that in that cycle they would be like kings. The law and teachings of Muḥammad, and the explanations and commentaries of ‘Alí, are a heavenly bounty; if they wish to give this bounty, they have power to do so. If they do not wish it, the rain will not fall: in this connection rain stands for bounty.
Then it is said: “They have power over water to turn it to blood,” 6 meaning that the prophethood of Muḥammad was the same as that of Moses, and that the power of ‘Alí was the same as that of Joshua: if they wished, they could turn the water of the Nile into blood, so far as the Egyptians and those who denied them were concerned—that is to say, that that which was the cause of their life, through their ignorance and pride, became the cause of their death. So the kingdom, wealth and power of Pharaoh and his people, which were the causes of the life of the nation, became, through their opposition, denial and pride, the cause of death, destruction, dispersion, degradation and poverty. Hence these two witnesses have power to destroy the nations.
Then it is said: “And smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will,” 7 meaning that they also would have the power and the material force necessary to educate the wicked and those who are oppressors and tyrants, for to these two witnesses God granted both outward and inward power, that they might educate and correct the ferocious, bloodthirsty, tyrannical nomad Arabs, who were like beasts of prey. 51
“And when they shall have finished their testimony” 8 means when they should have performed that which they are commanded, and should have delivered the divine message, promoting the Law of God and propagating the heavenly teachings, to the intent that the signs of spiritual life might be manifest in souls, and the light of the virtues of the world of humanity might shine forth, until complete development should be brought about among the nomad tribes.
“The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them”: 9 this beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muḥammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God.
It is said, “The beast made war against these two witnesses” 10 —that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory—meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses—in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.
“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where 52 also our Lord was crucified.” 11 “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.
“And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.” 12
As it was before explained, in the terminology of the Holy Books three days and a half signify three years and a half, and three years and a half are forty and two months, and forty and two months twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day by the text of the Holy Book signifies one year, the meaning is that for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the cycle of the Qur’án, the nations, tribes and peoples would look at their bodies—that is to say, that they would make a spectacle of the Religion of God: though they would not act in accordance with it, still, they would not suffer their bodies—meaning the Religion of God—to be put in the grave. That is to say, that in appearance they would cling to the Religion of God and not allow it to completely disappear from their midst, nor the body of it to be entirely destroyed and annihilated. Nay, in reality they would leave it, while outwardly preserving its name and remembrance.
Those “kindreds, people and nations” signify those who are gathered under the shadow of the Qur’án, not permitting the Cause and Law of God to be, in outward appearance, entirely destroyed and annihilated—for 53 there are prayer and fasting among them—but the fundamental principles of the Religion of God, which are morals and conduct, with the knowledge of divine mysteries, have disappeared; the light of the virtues of the world of humanity, which is the result of the love and knowledge of God, is extinguished; and the darkness of tyranny, oppression, satanic passions and desires has become victorious. The body of the Law of God, like a corpse, has been exposed to public view for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day being counted as a year, and this period is the cycle of Muḥammad.
The people forfeited all that these two persons had established, which was the foundation of the Law of God, and destroyed the virtues of the world of humanity, which are the divine gifts and the spirit of this religion, to such a degree that truthfulness, justice, love, union, purity, sanctity, detachment and all the divine qualities departed from among them. In the religion only prayers and fasting persisted; this condition lasted for twelve hundred and sixty years, which is the duration of the cycle of the Furqán. 13 It was as if these two persons were dead, and their bodies were remaining without spirit.
“And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.” 14 “Those who dwelt upon the earth” means the other nations and races, such as the peoples of Europe and distant Asia, who, when they saw that the character of Islám was entirely changed, the Law of God forsaken—that virtues, zeal and honor had departed from among them, and that their qualities were changed—became happy, and rejoiced that corruption of morals had infected the people of Islám, and that they would in consequence 54 be overcome by other nations. So this thing has come to pass. Witness this people which had attained the summit of power, how degraded and downtrodden it is now.
The other nations “shall send gifts to one another,” meaning that they should help each other, for “these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth”—that is, they overcame the other nations and peoples of the world and conquered them.
“And after three days and a half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that saw them.” 15 Three days and a half, as we before explained, is twelve hundred and sixty years. Those two persons whose bodies were lying spiritless are the teachings and the law that Muḥammad established and ‘Alí promoted, from which, however, the reality had departed and only the form remained. The spirit came again into them means that those foundations and teachings were again established. In other words, the spirituality of the Religion of God had been changed into materiality, and virtues into vices; the love of God had been changed into hatred, enlightenment into darkness, divine qualities into satanic ones, justice into tyranny, mercy into enmity, sincerity into hypocrisy, guidance into error, and purity into sensuality. Then after three days and a half, which by the terminology of the Holy Books is twelve hundred and sixty years, these divine teachings, heavenly virtues, perfections and spiritual bounties were again renewed by the appearance of the Báb and the devotion of Jináb-i-Quddús. 16
The holy breezes were diffused, the light of truth shone forth, the season of the life-giving spring came, and the morn of guidance dawned. These two lifeless bodies again 55 became living, and these two great ones—one the Founder and the other the promoter—arose and were like two candlesticks, for they illumined the world with the light of truth.
“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven,” 17 meaning that from the invisible heaven they heard the voice of God, saying: You have performed all that was proper and fitting in delivering the teachings and glad tidings; you have given My message to the people and raised the call of God, and have accomplished your duty. Now, like Christ, you must sacrifice your life for the Well-Beloved, and be martyrs. And that Sun of Reality, and that Moon of Guidance, 18 both, like Christ, set on the horizon of the greatest martyrdom and ascended to the Kingdom of God.
“And their enemies beheld them,” 19 meaning that many of their enemies, after witnessing their martyrdom, realized the sublimity of their station and the exaltation of their virtue, and testified to their greatness and perfection.
“And the same hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand.” 20
This earthquake occurred in Shíráz after the martyrdom of the Báb. The city was in a turmoil, and many people were destroyed. Great agitation also took place through diseases, cholera, dearth, scarcity, famine and afflictions, the like of which had never been known.
“And the remnant was affrighted and gave glory to the God of heaven.” 21
When the earthquake took place in Fárs, all the remnant 56 lamented and cried day and night, and were occupied in glorifying and praying to God. They were so troubled and affrighted that they had no sleep nor rest at night.
“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” 22 The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muḥammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” 23
Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.
“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” 24
The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of 57 the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor.
“And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God.
“Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.” 25 In each cycle the guardians and holy souls have been twelve. So Jacob had twelve sons; in the time of Moses there were twelve heads or chiefs of the tribes; in the time of Christ there were twelve Apostles; and in the time of Muḥammad there were twelve Imáms. But in this glorious manifestation there are twenty-four, double the number of all the others, for the greatness of this manifestation requires it. These holy souls are in the presence of God seated on their own thrones, meaning that they reign eternally.
These twenty-four great persons, though they are seated on the thrones of everlasting rule, yet are worshipers 58 of the appearance of the universal Manifestation, and they are humble and submissive, saying, “We give thanks to Thee, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come, because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power and hast reigned”—that is to say, Thou wilt issue all Thy teachings, Thou wilt gather all the people of the earth under Thy shadow, and Thou wilt bring all men under the shadow of one tent. Although it is the Eternal Kingdom of God, and He always had, and has, a Kingdom, the Kingdom here means the manifestation of Himself; 26 and He will issue all the laws and teachings which are the spirit of the world of humanity and everlasting life. And that universal Manifestation will subdue the world by spiritual power, not by war and combat; He will do it with peace and tranquillity, not by the sword and arms; He will establish this Heavenly Kingdom by true love, and not by the power of war. He will promote these divine teachings by kindness and righteousness, and not by weapons and harshness. He will so educate the nations and people that, notwithstanding their various conditions, their different customs and characters, and their diverse religions and races, they will, as it is said in the Bible, like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard, the kid, the sucking child and the serpent, become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation under the shadow of the Blessed Tree.
“And the nations were angry,” for Thy teachings opposed the passions of the other peoples; “and Thy wrath is come” 27 —that is to say, all will be afflicted by evident loss; because they do not follow Thy precepts, counsels and teachings, they will be deprived of Thy everlasting bounty, and veiled from the light of the Sun of Reality. 59
“And the time of the dead, that they should be judged” means that the time has come that the dead 28 —that is to say, those who are deprived of the spirit of the love of God and have not a share of the sanctified eternal life—will be judged with justice, meaning they will arise to receive that which they deserve. He will make the reality of their secrets evident, showing what a low degree they occupy in the world of existence, and that in reality they are under the rule of death.
“That Thou shouldst give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great” 29 —that is to say, He will distinguish the righteous by endless bounty, making them shine on the horizon of eternal honor, like the stars of heaven. He will assist them by endowing them with behavior and actions which are the light of the world of humanity, the cause of guidance, and the means of everlasting life in the Divine Kingdom.
“And shouldst destroy them which destroy the earth” 30 means that He will entirely deprive the neglectful; for the blindness of the blind will be manifest, and the vision of the seers will be evident; the ignorance and want of knowledge of the people of error will be recognized, and the knowledge and wisdom of the people under guidance will be apparent; consequently, the destroyers will be destroyed.
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven” 31 means that the divine Jerusalem is found, and the Holy of Holies has become visible. The Holy of Holies, according to the terminology of the people of wisdom, is the essence of the Divine Law, and the heavenly and true teachings of the Lord, which have not been changed in the cycle of any Prophet, as it was before explained. The sanctuary of 60 Jerusalem is likened to the reality of the Law of God, which is the Holy of Holies; and all the laws, conventions, rites and material regulations are the city of Jerusalem—this is why it is called the heavenly Jerusalem. Briefly, as in this cycle the Sun of Reality will make the light of God shine with the utmost splendor, therefore, the essence of the teachings of God will be realized in the world of existence, and the darkness of ignorance and want of knowledge will be dispelled. The world will become a new world, and enlightenment will prevail. So the Holy of Holies will appear.
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven” 32 means also that by the diffusion of the divine teachings, the appearance of these heavenly mysteries, and the rising of the Sun of Reality, the doors of success and prosperity will be opened in all directions, and the signs of goodness and heavenly benedictions will be made plain.
“And there was seen in His temple the ark of His Testament” 33 —that is to say, the Book of His Testament will appear in His Jerusalem, the Epistle of the Covenant 34 will be established, and the meaning of the Testament and of the Covenant will become evident. The renown of God will overspread the East and West, and the proclamation of the Cause of God will fill the world. The violators of the Covenant will be degraded and dispersed, and the faithful cherished and glorified, for they cling to the Book of the Testament and are firm and steadfast in the Covenant.
“And there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail,” 35 meaning that after the appearance of the Book of the Testament there will be a great storm, and the lightnings of the anger and the wrath of God will flash, the noise of the thunder of the 61 violation of the Covenant will resound, the earthquake of doubts will take place, the hail of torments will beat upon the violators of the Covenant, and even those who profess belief will fall into trials and temptations.
 
Old 05-18-2013, 05:40 AM   #532
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[QUOTE=Some Further Questions;42244Of course there are consequences to rejecting/disobeying God.[/QUOTE]

And please don't forget this verse:

"O SON OF SPIRIT!
"Love Me that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My Love can in no wise reach thee.
"Know this, O servant!"
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #5
 
Old 05-18-2013, 09:08 AM   #533
Jcc
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Correction: earlier I quoted Muhammad as saying "marvel not that God is so near to us, rather that, despite that nearness, we are so far from God".

Actually, that is from Baha'u'llah quoting a Persian poet who made reference to a verse in the Quran [50:16]

Meditate on what the poet hath written: “Wonder not, if my Best-Beloved be closer to me than mine own self; wonder at this, that I, despite such nearness, should still be so far from Him.”… Considering what God hath revealed, that “We are closer to man than his life-vein,” the poet hath, in allusion to this verse, stated that, though the revelation of my Best-Beloved hath so permeated my being that He is closer to me than my life-vein, yet, notwithstanding my certitude of its reality and my recognition of my station, I am still so far removed from Him. By this he meaneth that his heart, which is the seat of the All-Merciful and the throne wherein abideth the splendor of His revelation, is forgetful of its Creator, hath strayed from His path, hath shut out itself from His glory, and is stained with the defilement of earthly desires.
[Gleanings XCIII]
 
Old 05-21-2013, 04:36 PM   #534
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@Bruce

“"O SON OF SPIRIT!
"Love Me that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My Love can in no wise reach thee.
"Know this, O servant!"” --The Hidden Words, Part One, #5

Thanks Bruce. I agree with that to an extent

@Jcc

Yeah Jcc the Old Testament and New Testament are connected. But do you think God didn’t love in the OT the way He does in the NT? Most Christians believe that the Cross was foretold in Genesis ch 3 AKA “For God so loved the world”.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Here is an OT verse that speaks about God’s love.

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

The love is not given conditions of sin/obedience.

(And consider the verses below. True it doesn’t say flatly that God loves the stranger here, but it does not seem a stretch to me that it is implied because God’s commandments bring us closer to where He is right?)

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

The big difference (at least to me) is that no where have I found the Bible to say God doesn’t love such and such a person/group. It DOES say things like He hates wickedness, the deeds of such and such and of course that He hated Esau (which could be translated despised). I believe it’s possible to have love and hate warring inside and both be genuine, do you disagree?

Jcc if you were going to write an unofficial commentary for those verses in the Qur’an about Allah not loving so and so what would you write? “When Allah says He doesn’t love such a sinner, what He really means is______” What is being conveyed that we are misunderstanding?

@dale

I think it is important to go through it bit by bit dale. True like with most things you CAN go to an extreme, but consider the words of Isaiah:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Thanks for all the info about Daniel. I’ll dig into it when I have some time
 
Old 05-21-2013, 05:05 PM   #535
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@BlinkeyBill

Alright Bill… Alright….

“I never repond as you say just to get back, I will repeat myself I respond from politeness. The same as if someone sent me a letter I would have to respond, I know that many people in this day and age do not, they probably think me an outdated dinosaur.
And I only know how to respond as myself, I do not try to imitate others, so sorry about that.
And I would not be the one to go toxic as you say, I have replied to comments made to me, I consider with great restraint and politeness.”

You were not responding to anyone that I am aware of back in post #501 (I certainly was not addressing you then). You simply decided to jump in after saying you were done. You can, at least now I know what to expect from you.

You may well in fact believe yourself to have exercised great restraint and politeness but at least one other Baha’i disagrees with you and has sent me more than one apology for your continued behavior.

“Now you say your mother is a Baha'i, I trust everyone here considers this important fact, for if your loving mother can't change your outlook how are we poor Baha'is expected to compete with your mother :-)”

If you’re right then it’s not for nothing.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

“So again I question your reason to be here, if not to just stir the pot.
For you say that you wish for people to debate paragraph and verse with you, to convince you, well how is that going to happen?”

I am here to discuss different points of views, to share my concerns and to hear others. Some might call that stirring the pot I suppose. Even though I may not agree I still like to hear how others understand/see scripture.

“You have to understand that to be knowledgeable in the scriptures does not guarantee anything, after all the disciples (mostly) could not read and write, so their knowledge of scripture would not be as great as those who denied and debated with Jesus.”

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It’s true knowledge of Scripture does not guarantee much. I believe Satan knows every word of the Bible. That doesn’t mean that knowing it so we can RIGHTLY divide the word of truth is a small thing.

“I think it is wiser to withdraw, so I will not trouble you again, in this thread. :-)”

I guess we’ll see….
 
Old 05-21-2013, 06:16 PM   #536
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@ Jcc

What about what the Baha’i writings say about love? I am much less familiar with Baha’i writings when it comes to the subject of love. From what I can remember seeing I generally don’t have a problem with it. But it’s not something I can just separate in good conscience. If you had a friend that had done you no wrong but thoroughly approved of Muslims murdering innocent non-Muslims in other countries wouldn’t this one fact color your friendship? The fact that the Qur’an is upheld as 100% true and in certain ways superior colors my perception of all other Baha’i writings.

BTW do you think it unlikely that the strangers mentioned in the Old Testament were probably guilty of idolatry, fornication and a host of other sins? The children of Israel struggled with these and it seems all the more likely when Jehovah is not your only God (perhaps not your God at all).
 
Old 05-21-2013, 07:41 PM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Further Questions View Post
@ Jcc

What about what the Baha’i writings say about love? I am much less familiar with Baha’i writings when it comes to the subject of love. From what I can remember seeing I generally don’t have a problem with it. But it’s not something I can just separate in good conscience. If you had a friend that had done you no wrong but thoroughly approved of Muslims murdering innocent non-Muslims in other countries wouldn’t this one fact color your friendship? The fact that the Qur’an is upheld as 100% true and in certain ways superior colors my perception of all other Baha’i writings.

BTW do you think it unlikely that the strangers mentioned in the Old Testament were probably guilty of idolatry, fornication and a host of other sins? The children of Israel struggled with these and it seems all the more likely when Jehovah is not your only God (perhaps not your God at all).
I provided some quotes from Baha'u'llah above that show God's love is always there, it is the cause of our being, and if we don't love God, we deprive ourselves of that bounty.

You should not confuse acceptance of Muhammad as a messanger of God with any endorsement of murder or violence. Are you aware that Baha'is are the targets of violence and persecution by extremists in Iran and other Muslim, countries? We don't believe Muhammad would approve of that, any more than Jesus would approve of the Crusaders, Conquistadores, or the Inquisition.

The Quran is true, but its laws are out of date and abrogated. They are not appropriate for the modern world. Like the Old Testament, there are wars recorded, and the Muslims were instructed to fight. There were also severe punishments for crimes, like the Old Testament, only not quite as severe as that, but all of which are no longer appropriate.

Are you justifying the massacres of the Old Teatament because the victims were idolaters? Like the fall of Jericho, where the whole population was slaughtered? Muhammad never ordered any kind of slaughter like that, if the enemy surrenders you accept their surrender, but not Joshua he massacred the entire population. Surely you don't believe that it would be justifiable to massacre idolaters and sinners now? That time has past, but it was the will of God to have occurred at that time. No longer, we are in a new era now, with a "new heaven and a new earth". The Kingdom which Jesus spoke of is being rolled out.
 
Old 05-23-2013, 02:53 PM   #538
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@Jcc

I do not have all the answers I’d like as to why God commanded the total extermination of certain cities. I ask “but why the children” and there are answers I could go into but even if I did it leaves something to be desired as far as I’m concerned. The short and I think best answer is that sin has a cascading consequence (which is not always synonymous with punishment) from the Garden of Eden until now. That sin is more toxic and abhorrent to God than we realize. A child cannot appreciate how poisonous and dangerous certain refined radioactive materials are, some of them are shiny and pretty and don’t immediately burn. Compared to God we are like children in understanding the severity of sin.

“Are you aware that Baha'is are the targets of violence and persecution by extremists in Iran and other Muslim, countries?”

Yes, it’s a tragic reality for both our faiths and it grieves me not a little. My mom has mused what kind of persecution she might find from Christians later on but I remind her she has much more to worry about from certain Muslims than most Christians. Recent events prove that being in the U.S. is no guarantee of safety. It helps a great deal, but not 100%.

“The Quran is true, but its laws are out of date and abrogated. They are not appropriate for the modern world.”

Unless I am mistaken the Bab came around the mid eighteen hundreds which means that from the seventh century until then every genuine Islamic law and precept was good and valid correct? Not just for the Arabs for that span of time but the entire world?

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: "The Prophet said, 'I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me.

1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey.
2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.
3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me.
4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection).
5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.' Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331)"

“I provided some quotes from Baha'u'llah above that show God's love is always there, it is the cause of our being, and if we don't love God, we deprive ourselves of that bounty.”

This is the key issue as I see it Jcc. I do continue to beat upon this issue of love. But considering how important the Bible says it is how can I not?

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 13 (NAS)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge ; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous ; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly ; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth ; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails ; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away ; if there are tongues, they will cease ; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn_4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


4:107 And plead not on behalf of (people) who deceive themselves. Lo! Allah loveth not one who is treacherous and sinful.

If that’s true then God did not love Peter when he denied Christ.

30:45 That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He (Allah) loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).

I am a disbeliever in Islam. Did God change his policy when the Bab and Bahauallh came around? Did God cease to love every person that rejected Islam for over a thousand years until the Bab?

Are you saying that in all the verses where it says “Allah doesn’t love____” what it means is “their sinful actions separate them from His love? How does that fit with Christians and Jews that love God but disbelieve Islam?

If that is not what you think those verses mean please give your own translation or one given in Islamic/Baha’i writings.

Thank you for discussing this with me. You have been great to talk to.
 
Old 05-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #539
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Some thoughts

[QUOTE=Some Further Questions;42548]@Jcc

I do not have all the answers I’d like as to why God commanded the total extermination of certain cities. I ask “but why the children” and there are answers I could go into but even if I did it leaves something to be desired as far as I’m concerned. The short and I think best answer is that sin has a cascading consequence (which is not always synonymous with punishment) from the Garden of Eden until now. That sin is more toxic and abhorrent to God than we realize. A child cannot appreciate how poisonous and dangerous certain refined radioactive materials are...

>>> I think that you have touched on something of importance here, and that is the consequences of disobedience to God, His Laws or Commandments, and the Laws of Nature, which also proceed from God.
We have sufficient knowledge now to understand how toxic radiation is, but my physics teacher from about 1970 told me that when he was a kid they used to Xray his feet when he got shoes. This was out of ignorance of the Laws of Nature's elements.
The laws of health and hygiene were not understood as we understand them today. Even when Lister discovered antiseptics to kill germs during surgery, most surgeons scoffed, although he provided sufficient evidence.
This speaks to how difficult it is to break with the herd, and the consequences. The parallel is when a "True" Prophet of God appears and changes certain Laws, abrogating or adding them, He is opposed. This is universal in history, as though a law of human behavior is at work.
We are always in the process of living or dying. This may also be true spiritually. When one ceases to swim, that one drowns.

In understanding the laws of Islam, it is important to separate what was given in the Quran, and those which followed. What caprices various ulama follow in making up laws according to came into their heads is not from the Quran, even as many Christians made up their own laws, pretending them to be from God, rather than their own imaginations.
The Baha'i view is that the Cycle of the Quran ended in the year 1260 AH, which is 1844 AD, and that the Bab was the Instrument of change until the coming of Him Whom God shall make manifest, referring to Baha'u'llah, Who said, "The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended." This Cycle spanned from Adam all the way through to the end of what had been prophesied throughout the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran.
Also, it is very important to remember that a major schism occurred on the very day of the death of Muhammad. The Ummayyads opposed Ali, the rightful successor (according to Baha'i view) to Muhammad. These were the Meccan Idolators who "became" Muslims once they realized the power of what was happening. Their interest was temporal power, in the guise of Islam. (make that disguise)
If you have access to Some Answered Questions, by Abdul Baha, read Chapter XIII "Commentary on the twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of St. John"
 
Old 04-04-2016, 11:16 AM   #540
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Bump for later reading!

 
Old 04-05-2016, 02:05 PM   #541
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Man these threads got wild back then
 
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