Hello! - I have some questions

mornmagol · 03-06-2010, 12:24 AM

Hello, friends. I am an agnostic who has recently become very intrigued with the Baha'i worldview. Just as some background, I was raised Catholic but threw it aside (deservedly) after attending a school run by Opus Dei - the bad guys from "The Da Vinci Code", haha - and entered my long agnostic period. I dabbled a little bit in Christian Universalism, but my main complaint was that it was too narrow to really encompass the entirety of the human spiritual experience. I am a great fan of existentialist philosophers such as Nietzsche and Kierkegaard, but the philosopher who most struck me with his ideas was Joseph Campbell, with his insights into the unity of religion and the unity of man as expressed in human myths.

Recently, I have discovered that the Baha'i faith seems to echo Campbell's views - and my own - rather strongly, but I have a few questions. The most important is the Baha'i view on the holiness of the Bible.

I tend to have a problem with that. While the New Testament is brilliant, much of the Old Testament is rather hateful. The God of the Old Testament is more interested in genocide and tyrannical laws than loving his creation. And since those of the Baha'i faith expressly condemn aggressive war and genocide, but still view Moses as a great prophet (even though Moses' followers cut a swath of genocide through the Holy Land), I was wondering how you reconcile those two opposing sides.

Thank you for your time. I really am trying to find my way to - well, I hesitate to call it "God", because that's really a very limited word with a lot of baggage. I am trying to find my way to the TRUTH of things. And while I know, logically, that the Catholic God that I was told would surely send me to eternal torment does not exist, I still often wake up in a cold sweat fearing the wrath of God - even though I am often cited by others as one of the sweetest, most "Godly" people they have ever met.

I just want to find the truth, and to live without fear.

BruceDLimber · 03-06-2010, 04:30 AM

Greetings, Morn, and welcome to the neighborhood! :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mornmagol

I have a few questions. The most important is the Baha'i view on the holiness of the Bible.

OK. For starters, suffice it to say that in addition to our own Baha'i scriptures (which comprise about 200 volumes), we recognize both the Bible and the Qur'an (among other books) as legitimate, God-sent scripture!

Quote:

[S]ince those of the Baha'i faith expressly condemn aggressive war and genocide, but still view Moses as a great prophet (even though Moses' followers cut a swath of genocide through the Holy Land), I was wondering how you reconcile those two opposing sides.

I would say that this isn't really something we spend much time trying to "reconcile."

We do recognize Moses and Abraham as God-sent Divine Messengers, but our stress is really more on the teachings Moses brought and the religious dynasty Abraham founded (of which the Baha'i Faith is a part).

There is a discussion and explanation of the Biblical account of Moses' having killed a man, but I'm honestly not aware of anything directly addressing all the warlike activities of the Jews generally or Moses in particular.

Our main emphasis on the Jewish Tanach (aka the Old Testament) is on the prophecies it contains in books like Isaiah and Daniel that point to the coming of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. (There are also lots of similar prophecies in the New Testament, too!)

One of the reasons for this treatment of these older scriptures is that IOV they've been since superceded by newer scripture, in particular our own!

And while the Bible is no longer completely pristine, it having undergone at least a few regrettable tamperings and alterations over the millenia, our scriptures recognize it as still valuable for spiritual guidance (though clearly not for guidance about warfare and such). (As a general rule, the older a scriptural work, the more likely it is to have been corrupted by humans with their own agendas, and hence the more need for care when using them.)

Quote:

I still often wake up in a cold sweat fearing the wrath of God....

Then I hope you'll be very happy to hear that the Baha'i scriptures paint a far more positive picture of God as clearly All-loving and Beneficent! They don't stress God's wrath or portray Him in any threatening sense, and indeed state that the sorts of negative consequence you describe are in fact our own doing and nothing that God Himself desires or imposes on us! So if you are in fact endeavoring to live a good and godly life, you truly do have nothing whatever to worry about and can rejoice in your love for God and the very happy future you can expect in the Next Life!

Best regards, and please do keep any further questions coming: we truly LOVE 'em! :-)

Bruce

mornmagol · 03-06-2010, 04:54 PM

Aye, that is another thing I appreciate about the Baha'i teachings and those few Baha'i I have had contact with - they actually appreciate critical thinking and asking questions, even tough questions. A sword isn't made by coddling the steel, and truth isn't found by skirting controversy or shutting one's eyes and ears to new or uncomfortable revelations. The Baha'i seem to understand that, which impresses me deeply.

arthra · 03-06-2010, 05:01 PM

Welcome Mornmagol to the Forum!

I think you've touched on a very important issue..

We Baha'is do see the Bible as "inspired" but not necessarily accurate.. We tend to see that there are important symbolic and spiritual principles involved..

It's important also I think to share that we Baha'is see revelation as progressive.. and that truth is relative to the times for which it is revealed.

The Hebrews who struggled in the ancient world had some unique challenges to face and advances to make in their time and yes many of laws and ordinances that obtained in their time would be considered perhaps cruel and harsh by today's standards.. Annihilation of a people or tribe I would speculate was a common possibility for many peoples in the ancient world.. You could be sold into slavery.. or your family annihilated and life was "cheap"! It was a violent world at times.

There were also though some central spiritual truths that were still venerated and respected by the Lord Jesus in His time and were timeless.. these central spiritual truths relate to the individual's personal devotional life and "relationship" with the Ineffable..

There is a lot to share on this topic that probably deserves a lot more study and reflection than just a few posts so I am attaching here an essay that gives a Baha'i approach to some of the questions you raise and might suggest some further study and reflection:

A Baha'i Approach to the Bible

Again I want to personally welcome you here and wish you the best!

- Art

hippsta · 03-11-2010, 11:00 AM

Allah'u'abha All!

This is my first post as a new member here;
and with it, I shall remind all of us that are nostalgic for the seemingly vengeful God of the Old Testament, the following: my favorite passage from the hidden words...

2. "O Son of Spirit--
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice..."

I consider that, for better or worse.. everyone getting what's deserved.

arthra · 03-11-2010, 09:28 PM

Allah'u'Abha Hippsta!

Thanks for your post and welcome to Baha'i Forums!

Maybe you are suggesting in your citation of the Hidden Words of what we would call "Pay back" or karmic justice?

- Art

hippsta · 03-12-2010, 08:17 AM

Possibly, but not necessarily in the sense that the universe "makes right," nor that humans should impose said justice .. but that in God's eyes, the best thing is people getting whats deserved them; for better or worse. Which is not to say they actually will, unless He wills it.
Thank You for the warm Welcome, btw!

Vice · 03-20-2010, 09:33 AM

I don't know if you knew that in the old testament the name or as God was call was " ELSHADDAI" which means " The Almighty" as Moses was the one that brought the commandments..... back then this were serious things... if you know this was one of the reason of why the Jews crucified Jesus Christ... they'd thought that being Jesus the son of God was a big lie so as a punishment he was crucified, the crucifixion was taken by God as a self offering comming from his son to save all's life and fate.

Quote:

I tend to have a problem with that. While the New Testament is brilliant, much of the Old Testament is rather hateful. The God of the Old Testament is more interested in genocide and tyrannical laws than loving his creation. And since those of the Baha'i faith expressly condemn aggressive war and genocide, but still view Moses as a great prophet (even though Moses' followers cut a swath of genocide through the Holy Land), I was wondering how you reconcile those two opposing sides.

from there on we know the good and sweet God... it was never mean to be a Hateful God but he was just trying to save us by being strictly with His laws...

Me as a Baha'i have the belief that God send us every teacher, Master, Prophet with a gift for every era... since Zoroaster till the my blessed Master Baha'u'llah God has let us a message to survive this world of changes and intolerance... for that being... Baha'u'llan is the last messenger that God has send us and I as many other's take him and respect him with all what he deserve.

PD: sorry if my spelling was wrong or i miswrotte something... but that is how I feel about your question it will be nice to see you posting around and discuss such great things.

arthra · 03-20-2010, 04:28 PM

Thanks for your post Vice.. Yes we Baha'is accept Baha'u'llah as the latest Messenger form God..!

BruceDLimber · 03-21-2010, 08:29 AM

But He's not the last. There will NEVER be a last!

Best, :-)

Bruce

hippsta · 03-21-2010, 09:15 AM

Quote:

I don't know if you knew that in the old testament the name or as God was call was " ELSHADDAI" which means " The Almighty" as Moses was the one that brought the commandments..... back then this were serious things...

hehe, and the meaning of the biblical "Awesome," was closer to "Terrifying"

Vice · 03-22-2010, 06:29 AM

Quote:

hehe, and the meaning of the biblical "Awesome," was closer to "Terrifying"

Bliblical not that much but for the Jews it is...
as a Baha'i I lucky knowing that God love's everyone the same ^^... and is my duty to let all the people know about this awesome true ^^

03-06-2010, 12:24 AM	#1
mornmagol Junior Member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 2 From: Arlington Heights, IL	Hello! - I have some questions Hello, friends. I am an agnostic who has recently become very intrigued with the Baha'i worldview. Just as some background, I was raised Catholic but threw it aside (deservedly) after attending a school run by Opus Dei - the bad guys from "The Da Vinci Code", haha - and entered my long agnostic period. I dabbled a little bit in Christian Universalism, but my main complaint was that it was too narrow to really encompass the entirety of the human spiritual experience. I am a great fan of existentialist philosophers such as Nietzsche and Kierkegaard, but the philosopher who most struck me with his ideas was Joseph Campbell, with his insights into the unity of religion and the unity of man as expressed in human myths. Recently, I have discovered that the Baha'i faith seems to echo Campbell's views - and my own - rather strongly, but I have a few questions. The most important is the Baha'i view on the holiness of the Bible. I tend to have a problem with that. While the New Testament is brilliant, much of the Old Testament is rather hateful. The God of the Old Testament is more interested in genocide and tyrannical laws than loving his creation. And since those of the Baha'i faith expressly condemn aggressive war and genocide, but still view Moses as a great prophet (even though Moses' followers cut a swath of genocide through the Holy Land), I was wondering how you reconcile those two opposing sides. Thank you for your time. I really am trying to find my way to - well, I hesitate to call it "God", because that's really a very limited word with a lot of baggage. I am trying to find my way to the TRUTH of things. And while I know, logically, that the Catholic God that I was told would surely send me to eternal torment does not exist, I still often wake up in a cold sweat fearing the wrath of God - even though I am often cited by others as one of the sweetest, most "Godly" people they have ever met. I just want to find the truth, and to live without fear. __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-06-2010, 04:54 PM	#3
mornmagol Junior Member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 2 From: Arlington Heights, IL	Aye, that is another thing I appreciate about the Baha'i teachings and those few Baha'i I have had contact with - they actually appreciate critical thinking and asking questions, even tough questions. A sword isn't made by coddling the steel, and truth isn't found by skirting controversy or shutting one's eyes and ears to new or uncomfortable revelations. The Baha'i seem to understand that, which impresses me deeply. __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-06-2010, 05:01 PM	#4
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 733 From: California	Welcome Mornmagol to the Forum! I think you've touched on a very important issue.. We Baha'is do see the Bible as "inspired" but not necessarily accurate.. We tend to see that there are important symbolic and spiritual principles involved.. It's important also I think to share that we Baha'is see revelation as progressive.. and that truth is relative to the times for which it is revealed. The Hebrews who struggled in the ancient world had some unique challenges to face and advances to make in their time and yes many of laws and ordinances that obtained in their time would be considered perhaps cruel and harsh by today's standards.. Annihilation of a people or tribe I would speculate was a common possibility for many peoples in the ancient world.. You could be sold into slavery.. or your family annihilated and life was "cheap"! It was a violent world at times. There were also though some central spiritual truths that were still venerated and respected by the Lord Jesus in His time and were timeless.. these central spiritual truths relate to the individual's personal devotional life and "relationship" with the Ineffable.. There is a lot to share on this topic that probably deserves a lot more study and reflection than just a few posts so I am attaching here an essay that gives a Baha'i approach to some of the questions you raise and might suggest some further study and reflection: A Baha'i Approach to the Bible Again I want to personally welcome you here and wish you the best! - Art __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-11-2010, 11:00 AM	#5
hippsta мæṣʈ® Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 11 From: San Diego, CA	Allah'u'abha All! This is my first post as a new member here; and with it, I shall remind all of us that are nostalgic for the seemingly vengeful God of the Old Testament, the following: my favorite passage from the hidden words... 2. "O Son of Spirit-- The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice..." I consider that, for better or worse.. everyone getting what's deserved. __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-11-2010, 09:28 PM	#6
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 733 From: California	Allah'u'Abha Hippsta! Thanks for your post and welcome to Baha'i Forums! Maybe you are suggesting in your citation of the Hidden Words of what we would call "Pay back" or karmic justice? - Art __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-12-2010, 08:17 AM	#7
hippsta мæṣʈ® Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 11 From: San Diego, CA	Possibly, but not necessarily in the sense that the universe "makes right," nor that humans should impose said justice .. but that in God's eyes, the best thing is people getting whats deserved them; for better or worse. Which is not to say they actually will, unless He wills it. Thank You for the warm Welcome, btw! __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-20-2010, 04:28 PM	#9
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 733 From: California	Thanks for your post Vice.. Yes we Baha'is accept Baha'u'llah as the latest Messenger form God..! __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

03-21-2010, 08:29 AM	#10
BruceDLimber Member Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 53 From: Rockville, MD, USA	But He's not the last. There will NEVER be a last! Best, :-) Bruce __________________ Follow Baha'i Forums on Twitter and Facebook

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