SpiritualSeeker

Hello all,

as you can see from my display name I am seeking spirituality. (I wouldnt say I am truely spiritual yet, but I seek it). I am trying to find truth. Right now I feel myself very drawn to Shia Islam. Though I have some tendencies to want to give all religion up and study buddhism, but my heart seems attached to the belief in a particular Deity. I am also approaching bahai with an open and clear mind (hopefully) but I have some questions.

With all due respect I find that some terms used by the bahais are a bit ambiguous. Such as Manifestations of God like a messenger. Now, from how I understand it is a manifestation is not GOD nor does the manifestation have any qualities of God but instead they reflect the qualities of God like His mercy compassion, love etc...

However I hear that if a Manifestation said they were God that would be okay. Now this throws up a red flag especially since I am so closed to Shia islam (which focuses much on strict monotheism). So what is exactly the nature of the Manifestation of God?

Also how do we know a Manifestation of God is a true messenger? I hear that bahais even accept Joseph smith of the mormon faith to be a true prophet. How do you separate charlatans from truthful slaves of God?

Your responses are deeply appreciated

Thanks

arthra

Seeker..Welcome to the Forun!:wub

Just for your information since you stated you feel drawn to Shiah Islam, we Bha'is accept the Shiah perspective pretty much on early Islam that being that Imam Ali and his descendents were the rightful successors of Prophet Muhammad.. We also believe that Siyyid Ali Muhammad (the Bab) fulfilled the prophecy of the return of the twelfth Imam and was the Mahdi in 1260 AH (1844)

Now as to your questions regarding the Manifestations of God. We accept that these are created Perfect by God to reflect perfectly the attribtes of God to mankind as guidance for us from age to age and that GOd will never leave us alone without Divine Guidance. So the analogy is one of a perfect mirror that relfects the sun perfectly and accurately and that mirror by the way needs no polishing .. it is created by God as perfect.

I hope that uyou have access to the Writings of Baha'u'llah because when we have questiosn we first turn to the Writings. Here is what was revealed through Baha'u'llah:

XX. Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 48)


Now the following explains in what sense we mean that God can speak through the Manifestation:


Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine." And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance, "I am the Messenger of God," He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God." Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 53)

So I will let the direct Revelation through Bhaa'u'llah respond to your question..ponder what has been revealed in your heart of hearts.. and God's blessings be made know to you from this day onward..

- Art

SpiritualSeeker

Thank you for the responses.

So it seems like the Messenger are not like incarnations which comforts me.

If we could further discuss how one knows who is a messenger or not I would surely appreciate it

Thanks

arthra

Baha'is don't accept the concept of physicla incarnation of God.

A Manifestation of God has an influence over civilization as in say the Revelation through Prophet Muhamamd influenced the course of history and civilization .. We would say Christ influenced the course of history and civilization and so on.. this influence is a sign...

- Art

Clex19

Baha'is believe that there are two kinds of Prophets: Lesser Prophets and Greater Prophets. Someone can be only a Lesser Prophet, only a Greater Prophet, or both. Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are Greater Prophets which still have existing religions today. More Greater Prophets include Adam and Noah. Muhammad in particular was both a Greater Prophet and Lesser Prophet. However, He was the last of the Lesser Prophets. We believe that that is what is one reason why Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets. As to recognizing another Manifestation, Abdu'l-Baha says:

"The real Manifestation of God must be endowed with divine knowledge and not dependent upon learning acquired in schools. He must be the educator, not the educated; his standard intuition instead of tuition. He must be perfect and not imperfect, great and glorious instead of being weak and impotent. He must be wealthy in the riches of the spiritual world and not indigent. In a word, the holy divine Manifestation of God must be distinguished above all others of mankind in every aspect and qualification, in order that he may be able to effectively train the human body politic, eliminate the darkness enshrouding the human world, uplift humanity from a lower to a higher kingdom, be able through the penetrative power of his Word to promote and spread broadcast the beneficent message of universal peace among men, bring about the unification of mankind in religious belief through a manifest divine power, harmonize all sects and denominations and convert all nativities and nationalities into one nativity and fatherland."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 110)

As to the appearance of Manifestations yet to come, Baha'u'llah says:

"The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least "a full thousand years" will have elapsed. Bahá'u'lláh cautions against ascribing to "this verse" anything other than its "obvious meaning", and in one of His Tablets, He specifies that "each year" of this thousand year period consists of "twelve months according to the Qur'án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayan". The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá'u'lláh in the Siyah-Chal of Tihran, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 195)

MarkoPo

Your objections appear to relate to issues Bahá'u'lláh Himself brings up in His Writings. It is not for the Bahá'ís to say what or wherefore. If you want to understand the Holy Imams and the Mahdí, read their Writings; if you want to understand the Malik-i-Yom'ud-Dín (King of the Day of Reckoning), study Bahá'u'lláh. All previous Books, including the Báb's, are subject to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Umm'ul-Kitab.
If persecution in Persia was unable to stop the Bábí-Bahá'í movement, then doctrinal disputes around the world will also have little effect. Watch and see the destination of this new Movement.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritualSeeker [H]ow do we know a Manifestation of God is a true messenger? How do you separate charlatans from truthful slaves of God?

By one of the central Baha'i principles, Individual Investigation of Truth!

This means that EVERY individual has both the right and the duty to investigate the various religions, decide where the truth lies, and follow that!

This is clearly a process that can include prayer, reading, research, investigation, and observation, all leading ultimately to an informed, unprejudiced ("un-prejudged") decision.

And of course, the famous 'fruits test" in the New Testament is most helpful in this regard, as is the associated list of fruits in Galatians!

Quote:

I hear that bahais even accept Joseph smith of the mormon faith to be a true prophet.

Simply not true! I quote:

"1728. Status of Joseph Smith

<p n="0">"As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá'ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and divine Guidance."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, February 7, 1977)

--Lights of Guidance, p. 512


Peace, :-)

Bruce