Knowledge of their own selves

Pollwr · 03-13-2010, 01:02 PM

I found this quotation. Does anyone have any ideas about the implications of ascending to the station of knowledge of our own selves? I wonder does this relate to, in meditation being able to ask a question to yourself. I also wonder if we come with more packaged into ourselves than most of us discover in this life because we are just not looking. Any thoughts?

Far, far from Thy glory be what mortal man can affirm of Thee, or attribute unto Thee, or the praise with which he can glorify Thee! Whatever duty Thou hast prescribed unto Thy servants of extolling to the utmost Thy majesty and glory is but a token of Thy grace unto them, that they may be enabled to ascend unto the station conferred upon their own inmost being, the station of the knowledge of their own selves.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 3)

jwiegley · 03-13-2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pollwr

I also wonder if we come with more packaged into ourselves than most of us discover in this life because we are just not looking. Any thoughts?

This sentence reminds me of a passage in the Seven Valleys:

Quote:

Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths. One of the created phenomena is the dream. Behold how many secrets are deposited therein, how many wisdoms treasured up, how many worlds concealed. Observe, how thou art asleep in a dwelling, and its doors are barred; on a sudden thou findest thyself in a far-off city, which thou enterest without moving thy feet or wearying thy body; without using thine eyes, thou seest; without taxing thine ears, thou hearest; without a tongue, thou speakest. And perchance when ten years are gone, thou wilt witness in the outer world the very things thou hast dreamed tonight.

Now there are many wisdoms to ponder in the dream, which none but the people of this Valley can comprehend in their true elements. First, what is this world, where without eye and ear and hand and tongue a man puts all of these to use? Second, how is it that in the outer world thou seest today the effect of a dream, when thou didst vision it in the world of sleep some ten years past? Consider the difference between these two worlds and the mysteries which they conceal, that thou mayest attain to divine confirmations and heavenly discoveries and enter the regions of holiness.

God, the Exalted, hath placed these signs in men, to the end that philosophers may not deny the mysteries of the life beyond nor belittle that which hath been promised them. For some hold to reason and deny whatever the reason comprehendeth not, and yet weak minds can never grasp the matters which we have related, but only the Supreme, Divine Intelligence can comprehend them:

How can feeble reason encompass the Qur'an,
Or the spider snare a phoenix in his web?

All these states are to be witnessed in the Valley of Wonderment, and the traveler at every moment seeketh for more, and is not wearied. Thus the Lord of the First and the Last in setting forth the grades of contemplation, and expressing wonderment hath said: "O Lord, increase my astonishment at Thee!"

Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man's creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?

Then we must labor to destroy the animal condition, till the meaning of humanity shall come to light.

Pollwr · 03-14-2010, 04:15 AM

Wow, I had not made the connection between these two pieces of writing before but I see what you mean...So much to think about!

Orthodox · 09-06-2010, 09:06 PM

Knowledge is something outside of us, it is not internal you cannot look within yourself and find truth, many people have done this, they all come up with different ideas and beliefs. Some reconcile this with a subjective reality, which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Is that to say there is not truth within us? There is some truth moral truths are written on our heart and a seeking for something, that is the truths within us, but the answers are not within us. Knowledge is out of us, not revealed in wards.

jwiegley · 09-06-2010, 09:48 PM

There are whole schools, even centuries, of philosophy, who would both attack and defend your points, Orothodox. Too, scripture has a lot to say on Knowledge, both inner and outer, and its varying kinds, sources, and fields of application. There is enough room for debate that I'm not even close to being comfortable in saying what Knowledge is or isn't.

I came across the following untranslated passage from Bahá’u’lláh, which I found very apt:

Quote:

No soul has or will ever comprehend the essence of divine wisdom. In reality, the rational mind is a most great sign in humans and blessed are those who realize (its potential). But despite its high station and lofty rank, it is evident that the rational mind is unable to comprehend most things because its awareness depends on the testimony of sight. If the eye sees a palm tree, the rational mind does not comprehend the world of fruits, leaves, trees, branches, and twigs (hidden) in its seed.

Orthodox · 09-06-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwiegley

There are whole schools, even centuries, of philosophy, who would both attack and defend your points, Orothodox. Too, scripture has a lot to say on Knowledge, both inner and outer, and its varying kinds, sources, and fields of application. There is enough room for debate that I'm not even close to being comfortable in saying what Knowledge is or isn't.

I came across the following untranslated passage from Bahá’u’lláh, which I found very apt:

Yes there are schools that would attack my beliefs, as they would yours. But I find the idea knowledge comes within is inconsistent. for if it did, we would expect all people who look within to agree, they don't. Thus in order for their view to be valid they posit a subjective reality and thus the argument is lost from the word go.

I still maintain true knowledge of God is not within, only morality and a need can be found within. I have yet be shown answers within. They don't exist. it is a fantasy and delusion. We don't learn about the gospel of Luke by looking into ourselves.

jwiegley · 09-07-2010, 12:58 PM

There is a well-known Islamic tradition, confirmed by Bahá’u’lláh, which states: "Fear God, and God will give you knowledge." This is proof to me that inner, bestowed knowledge is a reality, however rarely it may appear to outward sight.

There are also many documented, historical cases of prescient dreams, something which is not possible to outward knowledge. Even in Biblical scripture there is the case of the Pharoah and his dream about the years of plenty and the years of famine. How did Pharoah learn what would happen 14 years in advance?

Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Gems of Divine Mysteries: "Whosoever entereth this city [of knowledge] will comprehend every science before probing into its mysteries..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá Himself (Bahá’u’lláh's son), in many documented cases, knew of events occurring in the world before it was possible for a telegraph to communicate the news to Him.

In some cases inner knowledge is as subtle as inspiration; at other times it may consist of ecstatic dreams and visions, of which there are innumerable Biblical examples (cf. the Revelation of St. John the Divine).

Pollwr · 09-11-2010, 08:08 PM

Interesting points. I had not considered knowledge of our own selves in this light. I just can't get my tiny mind around that right now - the meaning of an origin of knowledge..I do agree, though that I would not expect to just look within for what I need to know. If that was the case, we should not need education. If I thought I had all the answers I would be deluded.

I had the idea, which may well be wrong, that we all have a certain amount of abilities, both physical and psychological and spiritual latent within. I thought that when we gained knowledge of our own selves we were able to get a clear view of our own potential so that we could best utilize what we are given to serve God. Well, that's where my thoughts are on this topic at the moment, as I reflect.

Clex19 · 09-11-2010, 08:32 PM

'Abdu'l-Bahá, in Some Answered Questions, states that man has innate character (as well as inherited character and character that is acquired through education). Furthermore, man's inward powers are imagination, thought, comprehension, memory, and the power that intermediates with the senses. Finally, 'Abdu'l-Bahá explains that knowledge is acquired through the five senses, reasoning, tradition, and the Holy Spirit.

Orthodox · 09-11-2010, 08:35 PM

Just a responce to Jwe. Alright you mention the dreams of St John, as if they came from within them. True they were within him, but they were not made by him but given to him by God. So that is not knowledge within at all. And who gave the pharoah dreams? It was not himself but God who gave him these dreams.

pheonixduprese · 09-11-2010, 08:37 PM

So, god was giving him knowledge, which is exactly what jwiegly said. "Fear god, and god will give you knowledge."

Orthodox · 09-11-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pheonixduprese

So, god was giving him knowledge, which is exactly what jwiegly said. "Fear god, and god will give you knowledge."

The point is within the original context of my quote I was adamant knowledge or at least all knowledge besides a basic morality and that of a longing for something, does not come from within. These dreams were given to these biblical figures they didn't have them residing within them as some sort of gnostic truth.

Livindesert · 09-11-2010, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwiegley

There are whole schools, even centuries, of philosophy, who would both attack and defend your points, Orothodox. Too, scripture has a lot to say on Knowledge, both inner and outer, and its varying kinds, sources, and fields of application. There is enough room for debate that I'm not even close to being comfortable in saying what Knowledge is or isn't.

I came across the following untranslated passage from Bahá’u’lláh, which I found very apt:No soul has or will ever comprehend the essence of divine wisdom. In reality, the rational mind is a most great sign in humans and blessed are those who realize (its potential). But despite its high station and lofty rank, it is evident that the rational mind is unable to comprehend most things because its awareness depends on the testimony of sight. If the eye sees a palm tree, the rational mind does not comprehend the world of fruits, leaves, trees, branches, and twigs (hidden) in its seed.

Great post

Orthodox · 09-12-2010, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livindesert

Great post

Not really.

twirlytoast · 02-14-2011, 08:10 AM

inner knowledge, for example intuition, comes from within. This is an example of truth being within!
onto Orthodox who says why isn't everyones inner truth the same, I'll fire one back at you! Are all religions the same?
surely if we are all unique creations, then truth will be unique from soul to soul.

In Peace,

TT

LordOfGoblins · 02-14-2011, 08:03 PM

The more you grow the more you see where your weeknesses were and where your strengths lie. It is like traveling on a path once the path is traveled you can look back and see the journey but while your on the path at the begining is hard to have full knowledge of the journey and thus your self.

Orthodox · 02-14-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twirlytoast

inner knowledge, for example intuition, comes from within. This is an example of truth being within!
onto Orthodox who says why isn't everyones inner truth the same, I'll fire one back at you! Are all religions the same?
surely if we are all unique creations, then truth will be unique from soul to soul.

In Peace,

TT

the thing is that doesn't disprove my claim, but proves it. That people develop their own personal subjective ideas into numerous false religions. We are unique creations, but we don't have the truth implanted on us, we have to be nurtered in it.

LordOfGoblins · 02-14-2011, 09:54 PM

If we realise all religions come withe the purpose of advancing civilization while also bringing individuals to God we can clearly understand why their would be differences between them. As science advances so does religion. There will never be just one prophet, just one Messiah for all eternity it is impractical and not feasible. Mankind always needs new fresh messages as its understanding grows. Imagine if Muhammad had revealed things to the barbaric arabs the sortof writing that Baha'u'llah revealed. It would be far too refined and advanced for them. Likewise Jesus only taught the very basic spiritual verities of life and the most basic morals. He didnt go into depth or detail at all about inner spiritual truths. Almost all of Jesus teachings consist of parables to teach us some spiritual lesson. Not lowering the station of Jesus here at all, just saying that he gave to man what man needed and what God told him to. Now in this age of enlightenment Baha'u'llah revealed over 100 volumes. And more will still come after Baha'u'llah educating and raising mans spiritual awareness.

tonyfish58 · 02-14-2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

the thing is that doesn't disprove my claim, but proves it. That people develop their own personal subjective ideas into numerous false religions. We are unique creations, but we don't have the truth implanted on us, we have to be nurtured in it.

Orthodox this may be something you can pursue, you may enjoy the trip

I like the thought that the greatest truths are revealed during meditation or looking for truth from within, we must shut ourselves off from outside influences. All men are born with the capacity to know and love God, if they were not how could they be held to account?

This is where the nurturing aspect comes about. At some stage in ones life God offers the gift of Faith and we are given the chance to accept the truth. One may have been born and nurtured into Christianity or as a complete atheist, nurturing is and always will be given at varying levels and does not necessarily teach the ultimate truth and thus bring about the full potential of a person.

When we are given this chance (to reach our full potential vouchsafed by God) it is then up to us to look within and judge what we are confronted with. The potential is within all of us and not external to us. I feel we will be judged on our reaction to that chance and what we then do to follow that chosen direction.

We are like the seed of a large Oak tree, pick up the seed and you do not see the potential on the exterior, it is contained within

Nurture the seed correctly and you get the full potential, but that potential was already within. Nurture the seed incorrectly and it will not grow to its full potential.

So do not discount that a myriad of truths may in fact lie within us, or even the universe

Open your mind to within and without

Cheers Tony

Orthodox · 02-14-2011, 11:34 PM

We have that capicity to learn of God, but not by looking at ourselfs. As this has proven time and time again with all major religions and all religions in general, Christianity, Islam, Budhism, and etc they all contradict from what I believe a personal understanding seeking that answer within or imagining the answer and proclaiming that as truth. God reveals full truth and he has done that in the church.

LordOfGoblins · 02-14-2011, 11:40 PM

Its amazing that you think the full truth is revealed in the church. I see very little there in terms of spiritual insights apart from repetition of stories of the bible and peachers lessons for the day that are really no more insightful than your average self-help book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

We have that capicity to learn of God, but not by looking at ourselfs. As this has proven time and time again with all major religions and all religions in general, Christianity, Islam, Budhism, and etc they all contradict from what I believe a personal understanding seeking that answer within or imagining the answer and proclaiming that as truth. God reveals full truth and he has done that in the church.

tonyfish58 · 02-15-2011, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

We have that capacity to learn of God, but not by looking at ourselves. As this has proven time and time again with all major religions and all religions in general, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and etc they all contradict from what I believe a personal understanding seeking that answer within or imagining the answer and proclaiming that as truth. God reveals full truth and he has done that in the church.

You may have the right slant on the subject, but I feel you need to look further. It would also make me ask...Then how did the Church decide what is right? For example you take a biblical passage and they look at its inner or outer meaning

This is not done without looking within yourself for meaning, you have to meditate on what the passage means. There is always a myriad of meanings to Gods Word, it is not limited.

In Christianities case a lot of people in the past contemplated, debated on the meanings and put the passages into a context and to which people now beleive.

The parables are a good example of outward words having inner meanings.

There are numerous Biblical passages that have no obvious outward meaning and we have to search within to seek understanding.

Do not miss out on the beauty of Gods Word by putting limitations on it

I can see why in the below post that you are against it

What is meditation?

To me You would have to answer the question - "Is not the Trinity a meditation on Biblical Scripture?"

It is not a plain subject, but built on internal meanings to produce what it is.

It is a shame you think that free will contemplation on Godly subjects would lead you away from truth. God never leaves His servants alone

Cheers Tony

twirlytoast · 02-15-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

the thing is that doesn't disprove my claim, but proves it. That people develop their own personal subjective ideas into numerous false religions. We are unique creations, but we don't have the truth implanted on us, we have to be nurtered in it.

orthodox, the Truth, has many varying levels. Just as Love has its different stratas.
intuition is not of the mind, it is not manufactured via a process of thoughts, intuition is found within. Their is no debate with intuition, it just is.
the Truth is not restricted to be found inside a church, after all isn't the church, as spoken of by your saviour made up of people; not brick and mortar. Did Jesus not say where tow or three are gathered in my name.....? Having a building to worship in is not necessary, and God would not limit him/herself to buildings!
Look within for the Truth, meditate, seeking only takes you further from the Truth.

In Peace,

TT

Orthodox · 02-15-2011, 08:49 PM

Lord of Goblins you really need to read the church fathers or speak with a Bishop or priest. The Orthodox church is full of insight, and it should be considering it is hte church of the apostles.

Tony you ask how the church decided what was right? Through the Holy spirit guiding it for 2000 years from the apostles to this day in the consensus of the Bishops. And tony there are plenty of examples of biblical passages that don't have a clear meaning, and that is the point entirely. For what you are promoting is sola scriptura that our own interpretation is ultimately the one that matters, that we are to interpret hte bible alone without the church. We need the church in a consistent flow to read scripture you cannot read it with your bahai spectacles as Bahai have no qualifications to interepte the scripture, The apostles do, and the apostles are the Bishops of the orthodox church whom were affirmed by the apostles.

There are many truths, but not all things a truth. The fulfillment of truth is found in the orthodox church not man's understanding of truth which derives from himself. Truth comes and flows from God. If Truth was in ourselves we would not dissagree with each other. Unless you posit a subjective world view in which it ultimately doesn't matter what we believe. I can believe that Jesus is God and you can believe he is no, they are both right! Do you see the self destructive nature of a subjectivist world view? Now twirly have I ever said the church is a building? No. Please dont strawman me.

LordOfGoblins · 02-15-2011, 09:44 PM

The Quran is also full of amazing stories and quotes from the Imams eg Imam hussein are excellent. Unfortunately the bible esp the new testament well it is also good but to claim it is the be-all and end-all I cannot accept. I will have a look at the church of fathers only becuase you keep claiming it is so full of eternal truths etc. Then i will get back to you..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Lord of Goblins you really need to read the church fathers or speak with a Bishop or priest. The Orthodox church is full of insight, and it should be considering it is hte church of the apostles.

Tony you ask how the church decided what was right? Through the Holy spirit guiding it for 2000 years from the apostles to this day in the consensus of the Bishops. And tony there are plenty of examples of biblical passages that don't have a clear meaning, and that is the point entirely. For what you are promoting is sola scriptura that our own interpretation is ultimately the one that matters, that we are to interpret hte bible alone without the church. We need the church in a consistent flow to read scripture you cannot read it with your bahai spectacles as Bahai have no qualifications to interepte the scripture, The apostles do, and the apostles are the Bishops of the orthodox church whom were affirmed by the apostles.

There are many truths, but not all things a truth. The fulfillment of truth is found in the orthodox church not man's understanding of truth which derives from himself. Truth comes and flows from God. If Truth was in ourselves we would not dissagree with each other. Unless you posit a subjective world view in which it ultimately doesn't matter what we believe. I can believe that Jesus is God and you can believe he is no, they are both right! Do you see the self destructive nature of a subjectivist world view? Now twirly have I ever said the church is a building? No. Please dont strawman me.

tonyfish58 · 02-15-2011, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Tony you ask how the church decided what was right? Through the Holy spirit guiding it for 2000 years from the apostles to this day in the consensus of the Bishops. And tony there are plenty of examples of biblical passages that don't have a clear meaning, and that is the point entirely. For what you are promoting is sola scriptura that our own interpretation is ultimately the one that matters, that we are to interpret the bible alone without the church. We need the church in a consistent flow to read scripture you cannot read it with your Baha'i spectacles as Baha'i have no qualifications to interpret the scripture, The apostles do, and the apostles are the Bishops of the orthodox church whom were affirmed by the apostles. There are many truths, but not all things a truth. The fulfillment of truth is found in the orthodox church not man's understanding of truth which derives from himself. Truth comes and flows from God. If Truth was in ourselves we would not disagree with each other. Unless you posit a subjective world view in which it ultimately doesn't matter what we believe. I can believe that Jesus is God and you can believe he is no, they are both right! Do you see the self destructive nature of a subjective world view?

Orthodox - From what I read you are discouraged from meditating as you may be drawn away from the meaning you have been supplied with as the truth.

I guess what I am trying to impart is, no matter what you beleive, at some stage when that belief was being formulated, a whole lot of people meditated to get the answer. Meditation is scriptural.

Bible Verses on Meditation
Nov 20th, 2009 by HanSolo

Find out what the Bible says about biblical meditation. Here is a list of Bible verses on the topic of meditation.

The following compilation provides a biblical concept of meditation. Feel free to use the list for personal devotion or future reference. Biblical meditation is the discipline of focusing one’s thoughts on God and his word. It involves reading and studying the biblical text in order to discover the intended meaning and application. It is important to start with observation and study before we go on to application. Observation first, interpretation next and application is last.

Joshua 1:8

Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.

Psalm 1:2

But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.

Psalm 19:13-14

Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 39:3-4

My heart grew hot within me, and as I meditated, the fire burned; then I spoke with my tongue:

"Show me, O LORD, my life's end and the number of my days; let me know how fleeting is my life.

Psalm 48:9

Within your temple, O God, we meditate on your unfailing love.

Psalm 77:12

I will meditate on all your works and consider all your mighty deeds.

Psalm 104:34

May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the LORD.

Psalm 119:14-16

I rejoice in following your statutes as one rejoices in great riches. I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways. I delight in your decrees; I will not neglect your word.

Psalm 119:23

Though rulers sit together and slander me, your servant will meditate on your decrees.

Psalm 119:26-27

I recounted my ways and you answered me; teach me your decrees. Let me understand the teaching of your precepts; then I will meditate on your wonders.

Psalm 119:34

Give me understanding, and I will keep your law and obey it with all my heart.

Psalm 119:48

I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.

Psalm 119:73

Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands.

Psalm 119:78

May the arrogant be put to shame for wronging me without cause; but I will meditate on your precepts.

Psalm 119:97

Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long.

Psalm 119:99

I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes.

Psalm 119:125

I am your servant; give me discernment that I may understand your statutes.

Psalm 119:144

Your statutes are forever right; give me understanding that I may live.

Psalm 143:5

I remember the days of long ago; I meditate on all your works and consider what your hands have done.

Psalm 119:148

My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises.

Psalm 119:169

May my cry come before you, O LORD; give me understanding according to your word.

Psalm 145:4-6

One generation will commend your works to another; they will tell of your mighty acts. They will speak of the glorious splendor of your majesty, and I will meditate on your wonderful works.

Source: Holy Bible, New International Version

Orthodox - I think we have pointed out many times before and that is why I have not said it this time - We do not interpret scripture using our own understanding on it - we read and meditate on scripture using the Keys given by the Baha'i Writings. This way helps us to a fuller understanding of scripture. I personally look deep within myself to gain this knowledge.

If I make my own interpretation of scripture I would let that be known.

The authority we have is accepted to interpret these scriptures is the ultimate source

Any way enough is enough on this one - Cheers Tony

Orthodox · 02-15-2011, 11:36 PM

You do interpret scripture with your own intellect, and I doubt the word meditate here means to look into yourself and find an answer within yourself as to the meaning of things. This is not what God says, for we are to lean on God's understanding and deny ourselves. Posting a bunch of verses and saying look, there is meditation is not proof of anything or the concept that knowledge can be found with in.

twirlytoast · 02-16-2011, 02:48 PM

[QUOTE=Orthodox;12327]Lord of Goblins you really need to read the church fathers or speak with a Bishop or priest. The Orthodox church is full of insight, and it should be considering it is hte church of the apostles.

Tony you ask how the church decided what was right? Through the Holy spirit guiding it for 2000 years from the apostles to this day in the consensus of the Bishops. And tony there are plenty of examples of biblical passages that don't have a clear meaning, and that is the point entirely. For what you are promoting is sola scriptura that our own interpretation is ultimately the one that matters, that we are to interpret hte bible alone without the church. We need the church in a consistent flow to read scripture you cannot read it with your bahai spectacles as Bahai have no qualifications to interepte the scripture, The apostles do, and the apostles are the Bishops of the orthodox church whom were affirmed by the apostles.

There are many truths, but not all things a truth. The fulfillment of truth is found in the orthodox church not man's understanding of truth which derives from himself. Truth comes and flows from God. If Truth was in ourselves we would not dissagree with each other. Unless you posit a subjective world view in which it ultimately doesn't matter what we believe. I can believe that Jesus is God and you can believe he is no, they are both right! Do you see the self destructive nature of a subjectivist world view? [B]Now twirly have I ever said the church is a building? No. Please dont strawman me.

ahem, you wrote:- God reveals full truth and he has done that in the church.

now "in the church" sounds to me like God reveals the truth in a building! so orthodox, did you mean to say, .....to the church?

as Osho once said, "Priests (and politicians) are the mafia of the soul".

its why I find the Bahai Faith so refreshing!

In Peace,

TwirlyT

Orthodox · 02-16-2011, 04:33 PM

Twirly. What do I mean by church? Am I speaking of a building? or a visible community of believers linked to the apostles by apostolic succesion? Once again dont strawman me without at least trying clarify what I mean. Lord have mercy. Priests are the mafia of the soul? Hmmm I suppose if you reject God that might be true.

twirlytoast · 02-16-2011, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Twirly. What do I mean by church? Am I speaking of a building? or a visible community of believers linked to the apostles by apostolic succesion? Once again dont strawman me without at least trying clarify what I mean. Lord have mercy. Priests are the mafia of the soul? Hmmm I suppose if you reject God that might be true.

orthodox, I need no middleman to intercede on my behalf. I cannot reject God as I don't believe in this man made God!
Life itself is God! I need no so called holy books to recognise the Truth. Religion is a way of suffocating the soul through ritual and dogma. Look at christianity with its many divisions, the truth splintered by the ego of men!

Mind you it must be confusing when you read:-

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

does God have a strawman?

In Peace,

TT

LordOfGoblins · 02-16-2011, 06:38 PM

Bahais dont have the authority to interpret anything in the bible. Funny statement. What in effect you are saying is first one must become Christian to interpret the bible. Thefore noone outside Christianity has this authority. A good way of shutting down peoples mind and telling them to just accept the churches interprations without thinking for ourself. But I guess that is the churches way.

Orthodox · 02-16-2011, 07:19 PM

We obviously dissagree, your just spouting the same anti theist rubbish that they do on other less civilised forums. Christianity is not man made nor was it established for diabolical purposes. But was established by Christ so that we may come to know God through an intimant union with him, like a husband and wife. This is Why the church is often called a Mother and God a fther. Man cannot have God as his father unless he has God as his mother, one famous father said.

Twirly you don't even seem to understand what the term straw man means, its a logical fallacy out of many in which a person attacks something they did not say. So your attacking a strawman and not actually me. WHen you said the church is a building that was not my argument whatsoever, thus it was a strawman and logical fallacy on your part. Thanks twirly.

And no Lord, you can't simply claim to be Christian to understand scripture as many have done this., Protestantism with sola scriptura has no consensus on what teh scripture means therefore how are we too know hwat the scripture means? Through the apostles through the Bishops they established and I am convinced this can only be found in the Orthodox church. Its not about thinking for yourself as thinking by yourself isolated from others can make you wrong. Would you interpret the Bahai writings without the Council of universal justice or other supplementary writings? No you would rely on them to get hte bahai understanding. If you didn't you would have to admit the Orthodox bahai are just as valid as you.

LordOfGoblins · 02-16-2011, 07:35 PM

We dont acknowledge your apostilic succession transfers to the priests in the way of infallible interpreters that the UHJ are. The infallibility of the UHJ is specifically outlined in our succession. Yes your priests are guides and helpers but they are normal men and no such infallibility was described for them. In fact We do not even acknowledge the infalliblity of the apostles. They were not prophets and prophets are usually the only ones with infallibility. The exception to this rule is very rare and must be specified by the leading prophet. Example Abdul'Baha was a specific successor to Baha'u'llah with the described role of being the interpreter of Baha'u'llahs writings by Baha'u'llah himself. Now the apostles may have been infallible in recounting the events of Jesus life. That is a specific bounty Jesus promised to them, an infallible divine knowledge. However is there anyone left in your church who claims this power? If so let that man come forth for he must be a prophet and I would love to meet him. Furthermore were the apostles granted the power to interpret Jesus words? ie did Peter have the power to create the concept of the trinity? Please show me where the apostles are given this authority by Christ?
How much more so then the layman priest wouldnt have this authority.
The proof that no such infallibility was confered was the thousands of divisions within Christianity. An infallible religion does not become divided with thousands of interpretations.

Orthodox · 02-16-2011, 07:39 PM

you dont acknowledge it despite good reason for it. Now Peter and the apostles did not create teh concept as God has eternally been a trinity lord of Goblins your direct mishanding of the doctrine evidence of your ignorance on this subject. Layman priest? Such exists? Maybe in bahai but not in Christianity.

Now lord, Christianity is divided, but the church is not, as I have said. the Orthodox have retained unity and I might as well dismiss Bahai based on bahai divisions of leadership. Not everyone thought eh universal house of justice should lead. and I imagine should bahai gather as many people as christianity you will have a reformation of your own in which peopel reject the established authority and intepret things on their own. Now the apostles weren't infallible all the time but only in council, the council of Jeruselum is evident of this therefore teh successors of the apostles with their authority gathered in council are likewise infallible. You have no reason to reject Nicea under your logic.

arthra · 02-16-2011, 09:20 PM

Orthodox wrote:

Now lord, Christianity is divided, but the church is not, as I have said.

Comment:

There are forty thousand denominations of Christians..that
is 40,000 churches

Christian Unity vs 40,000 Denominations and Counting, Christian Blog, Christian Blogs, ChristianBlog.Com

Orthodox:

the Orthodox have retained unity and I might as well dismiss Baha'i based on Baha'i divisions of leadership. Not everyone thought eh universal house of justice should lead.

Comment:

Orthodox can dismiss Baha'i ...as can anyone.. but some Orthodox become Baha'is. The vast majority of Baha'is accepted the Universal House of Justice from it's inception in 1963..a few did not and left the Faith.

Orthodox;

and I imagine should Baha'i gather as many people as Christianity you will have a reformation of your own in which people reject the established authority and interpret things on their own.

Comment:

Baha'is are free to interpret things on their own today but cannot require other Baha'is to accept them because they are personal views.. but they also recognize the authorized interpretations of the eldest Son of Baha'u'llah..Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. It's called the Covenant of our Faith. This Covenant was set down in the Kitab-i-Ad, the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha.

orthodox:

Now the apostles weren't infallible all the time but only in council, the council of Jeruselum is evident of this therefore teh successors of the apostles with their authority gathered in council are likewise infallible. You have no reason to reject Nicea under your logic.

Comment:

Jesus Himself didn't establish a Covenant or delineate what a church was like or even less what a Council was..or what authority various officers of a church should have ..most of these were borrowed from Roman institutions..

bishop
O.E. bisceop, from L.L. episcopus, from Gk. episkopos "watcher, overseer," a title for various government officials, later taken over in a Church sense, from epi- "over" + skopos "watcher," from skeptesthai "look at" (see scope (1)).

curia
c.1600, one of the ten divisions of each of the three ancient Roman tribes; also "the Senate-house of Rome," from L. curia "court," perhaps from *co-wiria "community of men." Transferred to the Papal court (1840).

arthra · 02-16-2011, 09:27 PM

Tony,

Thanks for posting the Psalms above referring to meditations!

Orthodox · 02-16-2011, 09:41 PM

Yes there are 40,000 denominations I don't deny that. but only one is the church of Christ. Which has remained united for two thousand years. I still love my fellow Christians, even Yeshua despite his very liberal ideas I consider him a fellow Christian as we have the same beliefs as regards to who God is and the ultimate meaning of Christ. though we differ substantially on how the church is, he is a catholic and I am in that process of becoming orthodox. but I still consider him a Christian. but even though I consider there to be one true church which is the orthodox church and i see visible membership I believe God could mystically add certain people to the church, if it should be his will. perhaps the ignorant or the good. But this is God's decision not mine. So please when I say the church is united. I am not refferring to 2 BIllion Christians with contradictory and fractioned beliefs. I am reffering to the Orthodox church, Constantinople, Israel, Antioch, Alexandria, Russia, Japan and many others.

And that statement is teh very reason I will not become a bahai, it is ultimately a subjective faith in which you can believe whatever you want so long as you don't propagate it as Bahai. Is this unity? Isn't real unity proclaiming and Beleiving the same creed and liturgy all over the known world every sunday?

Jesus taught the apostles for forty days after his ressurection. And I believe Jesus established the role of the priesthood and etc and the authority of the apostles at this time which was certaintly passed down from the apostles to the next generation which more clearly spoke against going against the authority because all sorts of divergent groups were creeping up claiming to be the truth of Christ.

LordOfGoblins · 02-16-2011, 10:17 PM

Well that simply isnt true. There are many things you should believe to be a Bahai. For example you must beleive in the succession of Baha'u'llah to Abdul'Baha to Shoghi Effendi to the UHJ. Christians on the other hand believe all kinds of differeng things. Therefore I dont know how on earth you call Bahai some lose religion and Christianity one universal truth. It is simply not true. The only reason why your church seems united to you is because those who have a deviated idea have already gone off and made their own church. Get it? The only difference is this doesnt exist in Bahai. The fundamentals are there but some things are open for interpretation and that is fine as long as you dont impose it on others. Please dont misrepresent Bahai because you how describe it is not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Yes there are 40,000 denominations I don't deny that. but only one is the church of Christ. Which has remained united for two thousand years. I still love my fellow Christians, even Yeshua despite his very liberal ideas I consider him a fellow Christian as we have the same beliefs as regards to who God is and the ultimate meaning of Christ. though we differ substantially on how the church is, he is a catholic and I am in that process of becoming orthodox. but I still consider him a Christian. but even though I consider there to be one true church which is the orthodox church and i see visible membership I believe God could mystically add certain people to the church, if it should be his will. perhaps the ignorant or the good. But this is God's decision not mine. So please when I say the church is united. I am not refferring to 2 BIllion Christians with contradictory and fractioned beliefs. I am reffering to the Orthodox church, Constantinople, Israel, Antioch, Alexandria, Russia, Japan and many others.

And that statement is teh very reason I will not become a bahai, it is ultimately a subjective faith in which you can believe whatever you want so long as you don't propagate it as Bahai. Is this unity? Isn't real unity proclaiming and Beleiving the same creed and liturgy all over the known world every sunday?

Jesus taught the apostles for forty days after his ressurection. And I believe Jesus established the role of the priesthood and etc and the authority of the apostles at this time which was certaintly passed down from the apostles to the next generation which more clearly spoke against going against the authority because all sorts of divergent groups were creeping up claiming to be the truth of Christ.

Livindesert · 02-16-2011, 10:41 PM

Personally I think bringing up the "40,000" denomination argument is Bullcrap (pardon my french but regular words do not express how much I hate that line of thought)

Baha'u'llah had contact with two churches the Catholic and the Orthodox. As a matter of fact the Chapel at my base rejected one of my Baha'i pamphlets I was delivering from my core group to be put in the religious information area. It was reject due to being "offensive to Christians" as it had a mocking tone while bringing up the 40,000 argument.

It was very embarrassing and I intend to run my concerns up the chain as far as I can go to address this problem.

tonyfish58 · 02-16-2011, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

And that statement is the very reason I will not become a Baha'i, it is ultimately a subjective faith in which you can believe whatever you want so long as you don't propagate it as Baha'i. Is this unity?

It is obvious from this comment that you have understood or taken no effort to understand the Baha'i Faith.

We are bound by scripture and not allowed to interpret the writings the way we want, we have guidance and interpretations given to us on ours and other scriptures which we can use.

No Baha'i can interpret scripture with their own limited understanding and post it as gospel. We can talk about our thoughts and ideas, but it must be made known it is not scripture.

This has been explained many times over.

From what I see in your many posts, you may be guilty as charged on your own condemnation of the Baha'is.

Cheers Tony

03-13-2010, 01:02 PM	#1
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 293	Knowledge of their own selves I found this quotation. Does anyone have any ideas about the implications of ascending to the station of knowledge of our own selves? I wonder does this relate to, in meditation being able to ask a question to yourself. I also wonder if we come with more packaged into ourselves than most of us discover in this life because we are just not looking. Any thoughts? Far, far from Thy glory be what mortal man can affirm of Thee, or attribute unto Thee, or the praise with which he can glorify Thee! Whatever duty Thou hast prescribed unto Thy servants of extolling to the utmost Thy majesty and glory is but a token of Thy grace unto them, that they may be enabled to ascend unto the station conferred upon their own inmost being, the station of the knowledge of their own selves. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 3)

02-16-2011, 10:41 PM	#39
Livindesert Senior Member Joined: Jul 2010 From: Delmarva Posts: 430	Personally I think bringing up the "40,000" denomination argument is Bullcrap (pardon my french but regular words do not express how much I hate that line of thought) Baha'u'llah had contact with two churches the Catholic and the Orthodox. As a matter of fact the Chapel at my base rejected one of my Baha'i pamphlets I was delivering from my core group to be put in the religious information area. It was reject due to being "offensive to Christians" as it had a mocking tone while bringing up the 40,000 argument. It was very embarrassing and I intend to run my concerns up the chain as far as I can go to address this problem. Last edited by Livindesert; 02-16-2011 at 10:52 PM.

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03-14-2010, 04:15 AM	#3
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 293	Wow, I had not made the connection between these two pieces of writing before but I see what you mean...So much to think about!

09-06-2010, 09:06 PM	#4
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	Knowledge is something outside of us, it is not internal you cannot look within yourself and find truth, many people have done this, they all come up with different ideas and beliefs. Some reconcile this with a subjective reality, which doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Is that to say there is not truth within us? There is some truth moral truths are written on our heart and a seeking for something, that is the truths within us, but the answers are not within us. Knowledge is out of us, not revealed in wards.

09-07-2010, 12:58 PM	#7
jwiegley Member Joined: Sep 2009 From: New Jersey, USA Posts: 31	There is a well-known Islamic tradition, confirmed by Bahá’u’lláh, which states: "Fear God, and God will give you knowledge." This is proof to me that inner, bestowed knowledge is a reality, however rarely it may appear to outward sight. There are also many documented, historical cases of prescient dreams, something which is not possible to outward knowledge. Even in Biblical scripture there is the case of the Pharoah and his dream about the years of plenty and the years of famine. How did Pharoah learn what would happen 14 years in advance? Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Gems of Divine Mysteries: "Whosoever entereth this city [of knowledge] will comprehend every science before probing into its mysteries..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá Himself (Bahá’u’lláh's son), in many documented cases, knew of events occurring in the world before it was possible for a telegraph to communicate the news to Him. In some cases inner knowledge is as subtle as inspiration; at other times it may consist of ecstatic dreams and visions, of which there are innumerable Biblical examples (cf. the Revelation of St. John the Divine).

09-11-2010, 08:08 PM	#8
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 293	Interesting points. I had not considered knowledge of our own selves in this light. I just can't get my tiny mind around that right now - the meaning of an origin of knowledge..I do agree, though that I would not expect to just look within for what I need to know. If that was the case, we should not need education. If I thought I had all the answers I would be deluded. I had the idea, which may well be wrong, that we all have a certain amount of abilities, both physical and psychological and spiritual latent within. I thought that when we gained knowledge of our own selves we were able to get a clear view of our own potential so that we could best utilize what we are given to serve God. Well, that's where my thoughts are on this topic at the moment, as I reflect.

09-11-2010, 08:32 PM	#9
Clex19 Member Joined: Dec 2009 From: Nebraska Posts: 93	'Abdu'l-Bahá, in Some Answered Questions, states that man has innate character (as well as inherited character and character that is acquired through education). Furthermore, man's inward powers are imagination, thought, comprehension, memory, and the power that intermediates with the senses. Finally, 'Abdu'l-Bahá explains that knowledge is acquired through the five senses, reasoning, tradition, and the Holy Spirit.

09-11-2010, 08:35 PM	#10
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	Just a responce to Jwe. Alright you mention the dreams of St John, as if they came from within them. True they were within him, but they were not made by him but given to him by God. So that is not knowledge within at all. And who gave the pharoah dreams? It was not himself but God who gave him these dreams.

09-11-2010, 08:37 PM	#11
pheonixduprese Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Iowa Posts: 106	So, god was giving him knowledge, which is exactly what jwiegly said. "Fear god, and god will give you knowledge."

02-14-2011, 08:10 AM	#15
twirlytoast Junior Member Joined: Feb 2011 From: England Posts: 29	inner knowledge, for example intuition, comes from within. This is an example of truth being within! onto Orthodox who says why isn't everyones inner truth the same, I'll fire one back at you! Are all religions the same? surely if we are all unique creations, then truth will be unique from soul to soul. In Peace, TT

02-14-2011, 08:03 PM	#16
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,130	The more you grow the more you see where your weeknesses were and where your strengths lie. It is like traveling on a path once the path is traveled you can look back and see the journey but while your on the path at the begining is hard to have full knowledge of the journey and thus your self.

02-14-2011, 09:54 PM	#18
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,130	If we realise all religions come withe the purpose of advancing civilization while also bringing individuals to God we can clearly understand why their would be differences between them. As science advances so does religion. There will never be just one prophet, just one Messiah for all eternity it is impractical and not feasible. Mankind always needs new fresh messages as its understanding grows. Imagine if Muhammad had revealed things to the barbaric arabs the sortof writing that Baha'u'llah revealed. It would be far too refined and advanced for them. Likewise Jesus only taught the very basic spiritual verities of life and the most basic morals. He didnt go into depth or detail at all about inner spiritual truths. Almost all of Jesus teachings consist of parables to teach us some spiritual lesson. Not lowering the station of Jesus here at all, just saying that he gave to man what man needed and what God told him to. Now in this age of enlightenment Baha'u'llah revealed over 100 volumes. And more will still come after Baha'u'llah educating and raising mans spiritual awareness.

02-14-2011, 11:34 PM	#20
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	We have that capicity to learn of God, but not by looking at ourselfs. As this has proven time and time again with all major religions and all religions in general, Christianity, Islam, Budhism, and etc they all contradict from what I believe a personal understanding seeking that answer within or imagining the answer and proclaiming that as truth. God reveals full truth and he has done that in the church.

02-15-2011, 08:49 PM	#24
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	Lord of Goblins you really need to read the church fathers or speak with a Bishop or priest. The Orthodox church is full of insight, and it should be considering it is hte church of the apostles. Tony you ask how the church decided what was right? Through the Holy spirit guiding it for 2000 years from the apostles to this day in the consensus of the Bishops. And tony there are plenty of examples of biblical passages that don't have a clear meaning, and that is the point entirely. For what you are promoting is sola scriptura that our own interpretation is ultimately the one that matters, that we are to interpret hte bible alone without the church. We need the church in a consistent flow to read scripture you cannot read it with your bahai spectacles as Bahai have no qualifications to interepte the scripture, The apostles do, and the apostles are the Bishops of the orthodox church whom were affirmed by the apostles. There are many truths, but not all things a truth. The fulfillment of truth is found in the orthodox church not man's understanding of truth which derives from himself. Truth comes and flows from God. If Truth was in ourselves we would not dissagree with each other. Unless you posit a subjective world view in which it ultimately doesn't matter what we believe. I can believe that Jesus is God and you can believe he is no, they are both right! Do you see the self destructive nature of a subjectivist world view? Now twirly have I ever said the church is a building? No. Please dont strawman me.

02-15-2011, 11:36 PM	#27
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	You do interpret scripture with your own intellect, and I doubt the word meditate here means to look into yourself and find an answer within yourself as to the meaning of things. This is not what God says, for we are to lean on God's understanding and deny ourselves. Posting a bunch of verses and saying look, there is meditation is not proof of anything or the concept that knowledge can be found with in.

02-16-2011, 02:48 PM	#28
twirlytoast Junior Member Joined: Feb 2011 From: England Posts: 29	[QUOTE=Orthodox;12327]Lord of Goblins you really need to read the church fathers or speak with a Bishop or priest. The Orthodox church is full of insight, and it should be considering it is hte church of the apostles. Tony you ask how the church decided what was right? Through the Holy spirit guiding it for 2000 years from the apostles to this day in the consensus of the Bishops. And tony there are plenty of examples of biblical passages that don't have a clear meaning, and that is the point entirely. For what you are promoting is sola scriptura that our own interpretation is ultimately the one that matters, that we are to interpret hte bible alone without the church. We need the church in a consistent flow to read scripture you cannot read it with your bahai spectacles as Bahai have no qualifications to interepte the scripture, The apostles do, and the apostles are the Bishops of the orthodox church whom were affirmed by the apostles. There are many truths, but not all things a truth. The fulfillment of truth is found in the orthodox church not man's understanding of truth which derives from himself. Truth comes and flows from God. If Truth was in ourselves we would not dissagree with each other. Unless you posit a subjective world view in which it ultimately doesn't matter what we believe. I can believe that Jesus is God and you can believe he is no, they are both right! Do you see the self destructive nature of a subjectivist world view? [B]Now twirly have I ever said the church is a building? No. Please dont strawman me. ahem, you wrote:- God reveals full truth and he has done that in the church. now "in the church" sounds to me like God reveals the truth in a building! so orthodox, did you mean to say, .....to the church? as Osho once said, "Priests (and politicians) are the mafia of the soul". its why I find the Bahai Faith so refreshing! In Peace, TwirlyT

02-16-2011, 04:33 PM	#29
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	Twirly. What do I mean by church? Am I speaking of a building? or a visible community of believers linked to the apostles by apostolic succesion? Once again dont strawman me without at least trying clarify what I mean. Lord have mercy. Priests are the mafia of the soul? Hmmm I suppose if you reject God that might be true.

02-16-2011, 06:38 PM	#31
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,130	Bahais dont have the authority to interpret anything in the bible. Funny statement. What in effect you are saying is first one must become Christian to interpret the bible. Thefore noone outside Christianity has this authority. A good way of shutting down peoples mind and telling them to just accept the churches interprations without thinking for ourself. But I guess that is the churches way.

02-16-2011, 07:19 PM	#32
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	We obviously dissagree, your just spouting the same anti theist rubbish that they do on other less civilised forums. Christianity is not man made nor was it established for diabolical purposes. But was established by Christ so that we may come to know God through an intimant union with him, like a husband and wife. This is Why the church is often called a Mother and God a fther. Man cannot have God as his father unless he has God as his mother, one famous father said. Twirly you don't even seem to understand what the term straw man means, its a logical fallacy out of many in which a person attacks something they did not say. So your attacking a strawman and not actually me. WHen you said the church is a building that was not my argument whatsoever, thus it was a strawman and logical fallacy on your part. Thanks twirly. And no Lord, you can't simply claim to be Christian to understand scripture as many have done this., Protestantism with sola scriptura has no consensus on what teh scripture means therefore how are we too know hwat the scripture means? Through the apostles through the Bishops they established and I am convinced this can only be found in the Orthodox church. Its not about thinking for yourself as thinking by yourself isolated from others can make you wrong. Would you interpret the Bahai writings without the Council of universal justice or other supplementary writings? No you would rely on them to get hte bahai understanding. If you didn't you would have to admit the Orthodox bahai are just as valid as you.

02-16-2011, 07:35 PM	#33
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,130	We dont acknowledge your apostilic succession transfers to the priests in the way of infallible interpreters that the UHJ are. The infallibility of the UHJ is specifically outlined in our succession. Yes your priests are guides and helpers but they are normal men and no such infallibility was described for them. In fact We do not even acknowledge the infalliblity of the apostles. They were not prophets and prophets are usually the only ones with infallibility. The exception to this rule is very rare and must be specified by the leading prophet. Example Abdul'Baha was a specific successor to Baha'u'llah with the described role of being the interpreter of Baha'u'llahs writings by Baha'u'llah himself. Now the apostles may have been infallible in recounting the events of Jesus life. That is a specific bounty Jesus promised to them, an infallible divine knowledge. However is there anyone left in your church who claims this power? If so let that man come forth for he must be a prophet and I would love to meet him. Furthermore were the apostles granted the power to interpret Jesus words? ie did Peter have the power to create the concept of the trinity? Please show me where the apostles are given this authority by Christ? How much more so then the layman priest wouldnt have this authority. The proof that no such infallibility was confered was the thousands of divisions within Christianity. An infallible religion does not become divided with thousands of interpretations.

02-16-2011, 07:39 PM	#34
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	you dont acknowledge it despite good reason for it. Now Peter and the apostles did not create teh concept as God has eternally been a trinity lord of Goblins your direct mishanding of the doctrine evidence of your ignorance on this subject. Layman priest? Such exists? Maybe in bahai but not in Christianity. Now lord, Christianity is divided, but the church is not, as I have said. the Orthodox have retained unity and I might as well dismiss Bahai based on bahai divisions of leadership. Not everyone thought eh universal house of justice should lead. and I imagine should bahai gather as many people as christianity you will have a reformation of your own in which peopel reject the established authority and intepret things on their own. Now the apostles weren't infallible all the time but only in council, the council of Jeruselum is evident of this therefore teh successors of the apostles with their authority gathered in council are likewise infallible. You have no reason to reject Nicea under your logic.

02-16-2011, 09:20 PM	#35
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 2,805	Orthodox wrote: Now lord, Christianity is divided, but the church is not, as I have said. Comment: There are forty thousand denominations of Christians..that is 40,000 churches Christian Unity vs 40,000 Denominations and Counting, Christian Blog, Christian Blogs, ChristianBlog.Com Orthodox: the Orthodox have retained unity and I might as well dismiss Baha'i based on Baha'i divisions of leadership. Not everyone thought eh universal house of justice should lead. Comment: Orthodox can dismiss Baha'i ...as can anyone.. but some Orthodox become Baha'is. The vast majority of Baha'is accepted the Universal House of Justice from it's inception in 1963..a few did not and left the Faith. Orthodox; and I imagine should Baha'i gather as many people as Christianity you will have a reformation of your own in which people reject the established authority and interpret things on their own. Comment: Baha'is are free to interpret things on their own today but cannot require other Baha'is to accept them because they are personal views.. but they also recognize the authorized interpretations of the eldest Son of Baha'u'llah..Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. It's called the Covenant of our Faith. This Covenant was set down in the Kitab-i-Ad, the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha. orthodox: Now the apostles weren't infallible all the time but only in council, the council of Jeruselum is evident of this therefore teh successors of the apostles with their authority gathered in council are likewise infallible. You have no reason to reject Nicea under your logic. Comment: Jesus Himself didn't establish a Covenant or delineate what a church was like or even less what a Council was..or what authority various officers of a church should have ..most of these were borrowed from Roman institutions.. bishop O.E. bisceop, from L.L. episcopus, from Gk. episkopos "watcher, overseer," a title for various government officials, later taken over in a Church sense, from epi- "over" + skopos "watcher," from skeptesthai "look at" (see scope (1)). curia c.1600, one of the ten divisions of each of the three ancient Roman tribes; also "the Senate-house of Rome," from L. curia "court," perhaps from *co-wiria "community of men." Transferred to the Papal court (1840).

02-16-2011, 09:27 PM	#36
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 2,805	Tony, Thanks for posting the Psalms above referring to meditations!

02-16-2011, 09:41 PM	#37
Orthodox Dedicated to Orthodoxy Joined: Sep 2010 From: New Zealand Posts: 1,243	Yes there are 40,000 denominations I don't deny that. but only one is the church of Christ. Which has remained united for two thousand years. I still love my fellow Christians, even Yeshua despite his very liberal ideas I consider him a fellow Christian as we have the same beliefs as regards to who God is and the ultimate meaning of Christ. though we differ substantially on how the church is, he is a catholic and I am in that process of becoming orthodox. but I still consider him a Christian. but even though I consider there to be one true church which is the orthodox church and i see visible membership I believe God could mystically add certain people to the church, if it should be his will. perhaps the ignorant or the good. But this is God's decision not mine. So please when I say the church is united. I am not refferring to 2 BIllion Christians with contradictory and fractioned beliefs. I am reffering to the Orthodox church, Constantinople, Israel, Antioch, Alexandria, Russia, Japan and many others. And that statement is teh very reason I will not become a bahai, it is ultimately a subjective faith in which you can believe whatever you want so long as you don't propagate it as Bahai. Is this unity? Isn't real unity proclaiming and Beleiving the same creed and liturgy all over the known world every sunday? Jesus taught the apostles for forty days after his ressurection. And I believe Jesus established the role of the priesthood and etc and the authority of the apostles at this time which was certaintly passed down from the apostles to the next generation which more clearly spoke against going against the authority because all sorts of divergent groups were creeping up claiming to be the truth of Christ.