Rumi

Sboyce · 12-26-2010, 09:08 PM

I have just started to try and read on Rumi's Mathnavi, the Sufi Saints guide to return to God and this verse struck me.

The sun (Shams) of Tabriz is a perfect light,
A sun, yea, one of the beams of God!
When the praise was heard of the "Sun of Tabriz,"
The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.

(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1)

Tabriz is where The Bab was martyred.

I know that Rumi and other Sufi Poets are quoted in The Seven Valleys and Four Valleys, but I'm wondering if anyone has any insight on themes in their work that may direct toward this Revelation or any insights on themes that we share with the Sufi mystics.

arthra · 12-28-2010, 01:26 PM

I did come across a statement:

The wine mentioned in the Tablets has undoubtedly a spiritual meaning for in the "Book of Aqdas" we are definitely forbidden to take not only wine, but everything that deranges the mind.

In poetry as a whole wine is taken to have a different connotation than the ordinary intoxicating liquid.

We see it thus used by the Persian poets such as Saadi and Umar Khayyam and Hafiz to mean that element which nears man to his divine beloved, which makes him forget his material self so as better to seek his spiritual desires. It is very necessary to tell the children what this wine means so that they may not confuse it with the ordinary wine.

(4 November 1926 to an individual believer)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 247)

And there is an interesting statement in SAQ about Sufi concepts:

To recapitulate: the Sufis admit God and the creature, and say that God resolves Himself into the infinite forms of the creatures, and manifests like the sea, which appears in the infinite forms of the waves. These phenomenal and imperfect waves are the same thing as the Preexistent Sea, which is the sum of all the divine perfections. The Prophets, on the contrary, believe that there is the world of God, the world of the Kingdom, and the world of Creation: three things. The first emanation from God is the bounty of the Kingdom, which emanates and is reflected in the reality of the creatures, like the light which emanates from the sun and is resplendent in creatures; and this bounty, which is the light, is reflected in infinite forms in the reality of all things, and specifies and individualizes itself according to the capacity, the worthiness and the intrinsic value of things. But the affirmation of the Sufis requires that the Independent Wealth should descend to the degree of poverty, that the Preexistent should confine itself to phenomenal forms, and that Pure Power should be restricted to the state of weakness, according to the limitations of contingent beings. And this is an evident error. Observe that the reality of man, who is the most noble of creatures, does not descend to the reality of the animal, that the essence of the animal, which is endowed with the powers of sensation, does not abase itself to the degree of the vegetable, and that the reality of the vegetable, which is the power of growth, does not descend to the reality of the mineral.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 294

Pollwr · 07-14-2011, 02:25 PM

I am not really familiar with the writings of Rumi but I think it very interesting that Bahá'u'lláh quotes from him especially in "The four valleys" and "The seven valleys."

Fadl · 07-16-2011, 12:16 PM

Although your connection to the Bab is interesting, this passage almost certainly refers to Shams Ad-Din Muhammad who was a Persian and Muslim mystic who was a teacher and mentor of Rumi. Shams Tabrizi is a recurring theme in much of Rumi's works, where he is mentioned with great love, reverence, and respect. Your connection with the Bab is not that far off though, because it is clear that Shams is also a metaphor for God in Rumi's works, and man's irresitible attraction to him.

Momtazi · 08-15-2011, 03:44 AM

What does 'The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.' mean?

Fadl · 08-15-2011, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momtazi

What does 'The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.' mean?

I'm not sure!

Can you give the quote in a fuller context and a reference for it? That way someone here might be able to offer some insights.

Fadl · 08-15-2011, 07:50 AM

Here are some quotes from the Qur'an that may help, since to understand it will be easier by putting in an islamic context:

Quote:

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things." (Qur'an, 2:29)

"God is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that God has power over all things, and that God comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge." (Qur'an, 56:12)

"See ye not how God has created the seven heavens one above another?" (Qur'an, 71:12)

and there is also this from the Hadith:

Quote:

"Narrated Malik bin Sasaa: The Prophet said, "While I was at the House in a state midway between sleep and wakefulness, (an angel recognized me) as the man lying between two men. A golden tray full of wisdom and belief was brought to me and my body was cut open from the throat to the lower part of the abdomen and then my abdomen was washed with Zam-zam water and (my heart was) filled with wisdom and belief. Al-Buraq, a white animal, smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me and I set out with Gabriel.

When I reached the nearest heaven. Gabriel said to the heaven gate-keeper, 'Open the gate.' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' He said, 'Gabriel.' The gate-keeper,' Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel said, 'Muhammad.' The gate-keeper said, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!' Then I met Adam and greeted him and he said, 'You are welcomed O son and a Prophet.' Then we ascended to the second heaven.

It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel said, 'Gabriel.' It was said, 'Who is with you?' He said, 'Muhammad' It was asked, 'Has he been sent for?' He said, 'Yes.' It was said, 'He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!" Then I met Jesus and Yahya (John) who said, 'You are welcomed, O brother and a Prophet.' Then we ascended to the third heaven. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel said, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is with you? Gabriel said, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been sent for?' 'Yes,' said Gabriel. 'He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!' (The Prophet added.

There I met Joseph and greeted him, and he replied, 'You are welcomed, O brother and a Prophet!' Then we ascended to the 4th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met Idris and greeted him. He said, 'You are welcomed O brother and Prophet.'

Then we ascended to the 5th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in previous heavens. there I met and greeted Aaron who said, 'You are welcomed O brother and a Prophet". Then we ascended to the 6th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met and greeted Moses who said, 'You are welcomed O brother and. a Prophet.' When I proceeded on, he started weeping and on being asked why he was weeping, he said, 'O Lord!

Followers of this youth who was sent after me will enter Paradise in greater number than my followers.' Then we ascended to the seventh heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met and greeted Abraham who said, 'You are welcomed o son and a Prophet.' Then I was shown Al-Bait-al-Ma'mur (i.e. Allah's House).

I asked Gabriel about it and he said, This is Al Bait-ul-Ma'mur where 70,000 angels perform prayers daily and when they leave they never return to it (but always a fresh batch comes into it daily).' Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'

Then fifty prayers were enjoined on me. I descended till I met Moses who asked me, 'What have you done?' I said, 'Fifty prayers have been enjoined on me.' He said, 'I know the people better than you, because I had the hardest experience to bring Bani Israel to obedience. Your followers cannot put up with such obligation. So, return to your Lord and request Him (to reduce the number of prayers.' I returned and requested Allah (for reduction) and He made it forty.

I returned and (met Moses) and had a similar discussion, and then returned again to Allah for reduction and He made it thirty, then twenty, then ten, and then I came to Moses who repeated the same advice. Ultimately Allah reduced it to five. When I came to Moses again, he said, 'What have you done?' I said, 'Allah has made it five only.' He repeated the same advice but I said that I surrendered (to Allah's Final Order)'" Allah's Apostle was addressed by Allah, "I have decreed My Obligation and have reduced the burden on My slaves, and I shall reward a single good deed as if it were ten good deeds."

Maybe these will help you arrive at some sense of your quotation, or others may get some ideas to add. There is something else I wanted to share, but it suddenly escapes me! If it comes back, I'll share it!

Momtazi · 08-15-2011, 08:17 AM

I am referring to SBoyce re Rumi:
The sun (Shams) of Tabriz is a perfect light,
A sun, yea, one of the beams of God!
When the praise was heard of the "Sun of Tabriz,"
The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.

(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1)

What does 'The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.' mean?

Fadl · 08-18-2011, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momtazi

I am referring to SBoyce re Rumi:
The sun (Shams) of Tabriz is a perfect light,
A sun, yea, one of the beams of God!
When the praise was heard of the "Sun of Tabriz,"
The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.

(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1)

What does 'The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.' mean?

Ok, so I will take a stab at a commentary, but again, I don't have any inside information about it. I'm only a Baha'i who has an interest in sufi and mystical Islamic things.

You wanted to know the meaning of "When the praise was heard of the 'Sun [Shams] of Tabriz,' The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head."

The sun of Tabriz is Rumi's teacher and mentor Shams ad-Din Muhammad better known as Shams Tabrizi whom Rumi often reveres and praises in his works, and whom is used metaphorically as a symbol of the divine and the love of man for the Divinity.

The Hadith I provided above earlier, where Muhammed met various prophets and the different heavens, is a famous and well loved Hadith among the Muslims and would not have been unknown to Rumi. When Muhammad was in the fourth heaven the Hadith narrates:

Quote:

"Then we ascended to the 4th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met Idris and greeted him. He said, 'You are welcomed O brother and Prophet.'"

Idris, whom Muahammad met in the fourth heaven, is a Prophet of God that is mentioned in the Qur'an, who some believe to be Enoch. Idris is metioned two times in the Qur'an, and this is what the Qur'an says:

Quote:

"Also mention in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth, and a prophet and We raised him to an exalted station."
Qur'an 19:56-57

"And recollect Isma'il, Idris, and Dhul-Kifl, all were men of constancy and patience; We admitted them to Our mercy for they were of the righteous."
Qur'an 21:85-86

In Islamic literature, Idris is said to have not only been a prophet, but also an inventor, and a man of science, learning, and philosophy.

It is also interesting to note that, Baha'u'llah associates Idris with Hermes. In a foot note in the Lawhi Hikmat (Tablet of Wisdom) it is written:

Quote:

"In one of His Tablets Bahá'u'lláh wrote: 'The first person who devoted himself to philosophy was Idris. Thus was he named. Some called him also Hermes. In every tongue he hath a special name. He it is who hath set forth in every branch of philosophy thorough and convincing statements."
Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 148

Although Rumi couldn't have known of Baha'u'llah, Baha'u'llah gives us a glimpse of what may have been understood in the Islamic world about him, so I thought it would be worth mentioning. There is an interesting Wikipedia article about Hermes if you are interested in finding out more.

The reason I have provided so much background information about Idris is that it seems to me that it is probably Idris who is the "sun of the fourth heaven." To bow to someone, is to show them respect or honor. Therefore, when Rumi chose to have Idris bow to the praise of Shams Tabrizi, it seems to me that Rumi is saying that Shams Tabrizi is a man after Idris' own heart or that he has many of the same qualities thought to be had by Idris, and that Shams Tabirzi, in the opinion of Rumi, had also been raised by God to an exalted station.

LordOfGoblins · 08-18-2011, 02:06 AM

Enoch eh.
Interesting. These names of lesser prophets from history seem to pop up now and again and there is never much people seem to be able to say for sure about them. Pity that there is nor more information about thier lives available.
Incidently there is a youth in my community named Enoch, he is currently doing his YYOS in Africa.

aidan · 08-18-2011, 02:33 AM

This spamis very frustratingand obviously designed at driving people away LOG

LordOfGoblins · 08-18-2011, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

This spamis very frustratingand obviously designed at driving people away LOG

Never fear. Nothing can destroy the cause of God..

Fadl · 08-18-2011, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordOfGoblins

Never fear. Nothing can destroy the cause of God..

True, but as for this forum, that's a different matter.

Momtazi · 08-19-2011, 12:28 AM

FADL thank you so much for your explanation

Abbas

Yeshua · 12-19-2011, 07:29 AM

Brother Fadl wrote above:

Quote:

"To bow to someone, is to show them respect or honor. Therefore, when Rumi chose to have Idris bow to the praise of Shams Tabrizi, it seems to me that Rumi is saying that Shams Tabrizi is a man after Idris' own heart or that he has many of the same qualities thought to be had by Idris, and that Shams Tabirzi, in the opinion of Rumi, had also been raised by God to an exalted station"

“In the name of the Catholic World, I bow with respect before the memory of Rumi.”

- Pope John XXIII, 1958

"...He has afflicted you from every direction in order to pull you back to the Directionless...How could you reach the pearl by only looking at the sea? If you seek the pearl, be a diver: the diver needs several qualities: he must trust his rope and his life to the Friend's hand, he must stop breathing, and he must jump...How strange that in every special case one praises one's own way! If Islam means "surrender into God's will" it's in Islam that we all live and die. "

- Rumi

Rumi recognizes that there is only one, primordial, eternal religion of God. In one sense, as you have explained before Brother Fadl, we are - from the Qur'anic perspective - all "Muslims" (submitters to the will of God) just as all Christians and Children of Abraham - Muslim and Baha'i - are spiritually Jews (God praisers) from the Bible's perspective.

One of my favourite Rumi poems:

"You wish to have proof of a world beyond this one?

See how the old leaves and makes room for the new

A new day, a new night, a new garden, even a new trap to fall into

A new thought in each breath. Newness is a wonder. It surely is a treasure.

Did you ever wonder where the new comes from? Where the old disappears to?

If beyond what the eyes see there are not endless universes.

The world is a flowing stream, it looks enclosed and unchanging

But the old flows away and the new arrives. God knows where from"

- Rumi

Sboyce · 12-19-2011, 07:46 PM

What can I do, Submitters to God? I do not know myself.
I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Zoroastrian nor Muslim,
I am not from east or west, not from land or sea,
not from the shafts of nature nor from the spheres of the firmament,
not of the earth, not of water, not of air, not of fire.
I am not from the highest heaven, not from this world,
not from existence, not from being.
I am not from India, not from China, not from Bulgar, not from Saqsin,
not from the realm of the two Iraqs, not from the land of Khurasan
I am not from the world, not from beyond,
not from heaven and not from hell.
I am not from Adam, not from Eve, not from paradise and not from Ridwan.
My place is placeless, my trace is traceless,
no body, no soul, I am from the soul of souls.
I have chased out duality, lived the two worlds as one.
One I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call.
He is the first, he is the last, he is the outer, he is the inner.
Beyond "He" and "He is" I know no other.
I am drunk from the cup of love, the two worlds have escaped me.
I have no concern but carouse and rapture.
If one day in my life I spend a moment without you
from that hour and that time I would repent my life.
If one day I am given a moment in solitude with you
I will trample the two worlds underfoot and dance forever.
O Sun of Tabriz (Shams Tabrizi), I am so tipsy here in this world,
I have no tale to tell but tipsiness and rapture."-Rumi

LordOfGoblins · 07-10-2012, 05:46 PM

Poem of the Butterflies (Bab'Aziz) - YouTube

12-26-2010, 09:08 PM	#1
Sboyce Kitab-i-hearsay Joined: Nov 2010 From: Richmond, Indiana Posts: 252	Rumi I have just started to try and read on Rumi's Mathnavi, the Sufi Saints guide to return to God and this verse struck me. The sun (Shams) of Tabriz is a perfect light, A sun, yea, one of the beams of God! When the praise was heard of the "Sun of Tabriz," The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head. (Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1) Tabriz is where The Bab was martyred. I know that Rumi and other Sufi Poets are quoted in The Seven Valleys and Four Valleys, but I'm wondering if anyone has any insight on themes in their work that may direct toward this Revelation or any insights on themes that we share with the Sufi mystics.

12-28-2010, 01:26 PM	#2
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,962	"Wine" has a spiritual meaning: I did come across a statement: The wine mentioned in the Tablets has undoubtedly a spiritual meaning for in the "Book of Aqdas" we are definitely forbidden to take not only wine, but everything that deranges the mind. In poetry as a whole wine is taken to have a different connotation than the ordinary intoxicating liquid. We see it thus used by the Persian poets such as Saadi and Umar Khayyam and Hafiz to mean that element which nears man to his divine beloved, which makes him forget his material self so as better to seek his spiritual desires. It is very necessary to tell the children what this wine means so that they may not confuse it with the ordinary wine. (4 November 1926 to an individual believer) (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 247) And there is an interesting statement in SAQ about Sufi concepts: To recapitulate: the Sufis admit God and the creature, and say that God resolves Himself into the infinite forms of the creatures, and manifests like the sea, which appears in the infinite forms of the waves. These phenomenal and imperfect waves are the same thing as the Preexistent Sea, which is the sum of all the divine perfections. The Prophets, on the contrary, believe that there is the world of God, the world of the Kingdom, and the world of Creation: three things. The first emanation from God is the bounty of the Kingdom, which emanates and is reflected in the reality of the creatures, like the light which emanates from the sun and is resplendent in creatures; and this bounty, which is the light, is reflected in infinite forms in the reality of all things, and specifies and individualizes itself according to the capacity, the worthiness and the intrinsic value of things. But the affirmation of the Sufis requires that the Independent Wealth should descend to the degree of poverty, that the Preexistent should confine itself to phenomenal forms, and that Pure Power should be restricted to the state of weakness, according to the limitations of contingent beings. And this is an evident error. Observe that the reality of man, who is the most noble of creatures, does not descend to the reality of the animal, that the essence of the animal, which is endowed with the powers of sensation, does not abase itself to the degree of the vegetable, and that the reality of the vegetable, which is the power of growth, does not descend to the reality of the mineral. ~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 294 Last edited by arthra; 12-28-2010 at 01:31 PM.

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07-14-2011, 02:25 PM	#3
Pollwr Senior Member Joined: Jun 2009 From: earth Posts: 379	I am not really familiar with the writings of Rumi but I think it very interesting that Bahá'u'lláh quotes from him especially in "The four valleys" and "The seven valleys."

07-16-2011, 12:16 PM	#4
Fadl chief bottle washer Joined: Jun 2011 From: "Here am I, Here am I" Posts: 945	Although your connection to the Bab is interesting, this passage almost certainly refers to Shams Ad-Din Muhammad who was a Persian and Muslim mystic who was a teacher and mentor of Rumi. Shams Tabrizi is a recurring theme in much of Rumi's works, where he is mentioned with great love, reverence, and respect. Your connection with the Bab is not that far off though, because it is clear that Shams is also a metaphor for God in Rumi's works, and man's irresitible attraction to him.

08-15-2011, 03:44 AM	#5
Momtazi Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: uk Posts: 33	What does 'The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.' mean?

08-15-2011, 08:17 AM	#8
Momtazi Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: uk Posts: 33	I am referring to SBoyce re Rumi: The sun (Shams) of Tabriz is a perfect light, A sun, yea, one of the beams of God! When the praise was heard of the "Sun of Tabriz," The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head. (Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1) What does 'The sun of the fourth heaven bowed its head.' mean?

08-18-2011, 02:06 AM	#10
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 2,056	Enoch eh. Interesting. These names of lesser prophets from history seem to pop up now and again and there is never much people seem to be able to say for sure about them. Pity that there is nor more information about thier lives available. Incidently there is a youth in my community named Enoch, he is currently doing his YYOS in Africa.

08-18-2011, 02:33 AM	#11
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	This spamis very frustratingand obviously designed at driving people away LOG

08-19-2011, 12:28 AM	#14
Momtazi Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: uk Posts: 33	FADL thank you so much for your explanation Abbas

12-19-2011, 07:46 PM	#16
Sboyce Kitab-i-hearsay Joined: Nov 2010 From: Richmond, Indiana Posts: 252	What can I do, Submitters to God? I do not know myself. I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Zoroastrian nor Muslim, I am not from east or west, not from land or sea, not from the shafts of nature nor from the spheres of the firmament, not of the earth, not of water, not of air, not of fire. I am not from the highest heaven, not from this world, not from existence, not from being. I am not from India, not from China, not from Bulgar, not from Saqsin, not from the realm of the two Iraqs, not from the land of Khurasan I am not from the world, not from beyond, not from heaven and not from hell. I am not from Adam, not from Eve, not from paradise and not from Ridwan. My place is placeless, my trace is traceless, no body, no soul, I am from the soul of souls. I have chased out duality, lived the two worlds as one. One I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call. He is the first, he is the last, he is the outer, he is the inner. Beyond "He" and "He is" I know no other. I am drunk from the cup of love, the two worlds have escaped me. I have no concern but carouse and rapture. If one day in my life I spend a moment without you from that hour and that time I would repent my life. If one day I am given a moment in solitude with you I will trample the two worlds underfoot and dance forever. O Sun of Tabriz (Shams Tabrizi), I am so tipsy here in this world, I have no tale to tell but tipsiness and rapture."-Rumi