To stress the miraculous?

cire perdue · 12-01-2011, 09:35 AM

I just encountered a site with the purpose of emphatically reinforcing the miracles of Christ to the extent that a dichotomy is presented that if Christ was not resurrected bodily from the grave that all Christianity is for naught. I have had time to sleep on this and come up with several ideas. The most prominent is that to stress miracles too much may cause one to expect overt miracles in his own life and result in a wrote personal faith that thinks that events are due. To me that is not faith, faith is walking blindly without expectation of reciprocation on the part of God. That does not mean confirmation does not occur. By making choices in our life that are or seem to be God's Will for us that are the result of prayer, meditaion and study that turn out for the best we would seem to be acting with faith and spritual means, without confirmation through miraculous occurrences.

The bodily resurrection may have been taught and believed because mankind was not capable of being affected by an abstract thought. However it may be have been known for several hundred years that Christ did not rise bodily from the grave but spritually. There are obvious differences from book to book in the Bible that indicate lack of historical continuity. Due to the emphasis by the Baha'i Faith on the spiritual teachings of God and His Messengers and the station of the Messengers, miracles though present are not emphasized. They are recorded from the child the Bab cured with water from His ablutions, to the Baha'i who met Abdul'baha as a child, and reported at the World Congress in 1992 that the Master cured her mother of TB when He met her. (I think she had been ill until the day she met Abdul'baha, and after the meeting, the family came to realize that she was no longer ill.)

However the real miracles I have experienced in this life have been the change I see in myself over time. Though I can recount a few things that fall more into the overt miracle category, but only later in life, the confirmations which have bloomed in my life has been being more loving, having more friends, caring more about people, being able to talk and write about the Faith more. The understanding I have about life is priceless to me. Would I appreciate the beauty of these things if obvious miraculous events were entrenched into such a context of my life? Would I discount myself from lack of miracles?

The miracle that Christ enacted upon mankind was that He came to one people who were entrenched in dietary ritual and laws that seem to express little love, and another people who were entertained by death by battle and torture and enslaved their fellow humans, who by the changes wrought by belief and faith that they would later give their lives to care for the sick and dying, and that a new compassion would be infused into their world by which Mankind would never again institutionalize cruelty quite so well for so long and be unopposed.

Just as some saints and countless relics have lost authenticity, could the loss of miracles cause meaninglessness? I don't think so. As long as I am prepared to take charge of my own feelings, happiness, and spiritual growth there is always a way to turn towards God to achieve my own spiritual equilibrium for it is the God within me that is the miracle, not an event distant in time and reality. The miracle is in this day that do I love Him, His love will unfailingly encompass me. To love God, however, is the work of a lifetime whose actions reflect the truth and sincerity of my endeavor.

Prodaytrader · 12-08-2011, 08:20 AM

I seem to recall there being four proofs of a prophet with the first being miracles. Even Bahu'll'ah preformed miracles. It is neccisary for a certain mindset and used to set a foundation of believers. It's hard to deny divenity when one witnesses such an act and thus that person becomes devote. Of course miracles can only get the movement so far so other proofs are needed. According to my mother we are not to stress such things because all those living today will be forced to deny them until we become believers ourselves. Miracles serve the eye witness only. I tthink that the seekers of this era are more logical and intelligent now then ever in history with tomorrow being more of the same. Miracles fly in the face of logic and reason and thus are not emphasized.

cire perdue · 12-08-2011, 10:15 AM

I can't give reference, but it says in Baha'i Faith the first proof of the Manifestation of God is His Person, and the second is His Writings. Miracles are very, very low down there, as what is a miracle to one is not to another which is said in SAQ.

arthra · 12-09-2011, 01:29 AM

He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

When the prophets of God appear upon this earth, their validity is established by means of certain proofs.

One of the proofs is through the fulfillment of former prophecies,

the second proofs are their creative words and phrases which salute the hearts of humanity,

the third are their deeds

and the fourth are their teachings.

The prophecies deal with dates and symbols which proclaim the end of each dispensation. In former books the conditions are explained concerning subsequent manifestors of the divine plan. But those who do not follow closely these things will not be convinced by proofs such as these. This then is not a final proof.

Miracles are likewise convincing to a limited number only. For instance, a Buddhist would not be convinced by the miracles of Moses which are proofs only so far as the orthodox Jews are concerned, because they love Moses. On the 44 other hand the miracles attributed to Jesus Christ are refuted by the Jews as a whole, saying "No one lives today who has seen these miracles performed, therefore, who can bear testimony to them?"

A clear proof of validity lies in the achievements and here we are confronted by certain irrefutable facts. The prophets have come from the lowliest and most humiliated of the nations and in each age the prophet has raised his downtrodden nation to the highest zenith of prosperity and success among the nations of the earth. For instance, His Holiness Christ was quite alone. He was a Jew from among the Jews. He came at a time when the Israelites were under the yoke of the Romans. He revivified the people till they were transferred from one state of existence into a higher state of existence.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 43)

cire perdue · 12-09-2011, 08:01 AM

If Christ did not rise from the grave by His body then Christianity is for naught. I find that an extreme and absolutely artificially constructed and forced dichotomy. However I have to agree that there is part of Christianity that is for naught and it is the leaders and people who felt that they needed to control what others believed, that people needed to be led, that these leaders were owed a living. The Christianity that will never ever be invalid even if Christ's body and tomb were discovered tomorrow is the Faith that lived in the heart of people who believed and changed their lives a result.

12-01-2011, 09:35 AM	#1
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,618	To stress the miraculous? I just encountered a site with the purpose of emphatically reinforcing the miracles of Christ to the extent that a dichotomy is presented that if Christ was not resurrected bodily from the grave that all Christianity is for naught. I have had time to sleep on this and come up with several ideas. The most prominent is that to stress miracles too much may cause one to expect overt miracles in his own life and result in a wrote personal faith that thinks that events are due. To me that is not faith, faith is walking blindly without expectation of reciprocation on the part of God. That does not mean confirmation does not occur. By making choices in our life that are or seem to be God's Will for us that are the result of prayer, meditaion and study that turn out for the best we would seem to be acting with faith and spritual means, without confirmation through miraculous occurrences. The bodily resurrection may have been taught and believed because mankind was not capable of being affected by an abstract thought. However it may be have been known for several hundred years that Christ did not rise bodily from the grave but spritually. There are obvious differences from book to book in the Bible that indicate lack of historical continuity. Due to the emphasis by the Baha'i Faith on the spiritual teachings of God and His Messengers and the station of the Messengers, miracles though present are not emphasized. They are recorded from the child the Bab cured with water from His ablutions, to the Baha'i who met Abdul'baha as a child, and reported at the World Congress in 1992 that the Master cured her mother of TB when He met her. (I think she had been ill until the day she met Abdul'baha, and after the meeting, the family came to realize that she was no longer ill.) However the real miracles I have experienced in this life have been the change I see in myself over time. Though I can recount a few things that fall more into the overt miracle category, but only later in life, the confirmations which have bloomed in my life has been being more loving, having more friends, caring more about people, being able to talk and write about the Faith more. The understanding I have about life is priceless to me. Would I appreciate the beauty of these things if obvious miraculous events were entrenched into such a context of my life? Would I discount myself from lack of miracles? The miracle that Christ enacted upon mankind was that He came to one people who were entrenched in dietary ritual and laws that seem to express little love, and another people who were entertained by death by battle and torture and enslaved their fellow humans, who by the changes wrought by belief and faith that they would later give their lives to care for the sick and dying, and that a new compassion would be infused into their world by which Mankind would never again institutionalize cruelty quite so well for so long and be unopposed. Just as some saints and countless relics have lost authenticity, could the loss of miracles cause meaninglessness? I don't think so. As long as I am prepared to take charge of my own feelings, happiness, and spiritual growth there is always a way to turn towards God to achieve my own spiritual equilibrium for it is the God within me that is the miracle, not an event distant in time and reality. The miracle is in this day that do I love Him, His love will unfailingly encompass me. To love God, however, is the work of a lifetime whose actions reflect the truth and sincerity of my endeavor.

12-08-2011, 10:15 AM	#3
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,618	Nope I can't give reference, but it says in Baha'i Faith the first proof of the Manifestation of God is His Person, and the second is His Writings. Miracles are very, very low down there, as what is a miracle to one is not to another which is said in SAQ.

12-09-2011, 08:01 AM	#5
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,618	further reflection on the dichotomy If Christ did not rise from the grave by His body then Christianity is for naught. I find that an extreme and absolutely artificially constructed and forced dichotomy. However I have to agree that there is part of Christianity that is for naught and it is the leaders and people who felt that they needed to control what others believed, that people needed to be led, that these leaders were owed a living. The Christianity that will never ever be invalid even if Christ's body and tomb were discovered tomorrow is the Faith that lived in the heart of people who believed and changed their lives a result.

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12-08-2011, 08:20 AM	#2
Prodaytrader Member Joined: Nov 2011 From: Dallas Posts: 31	I seem to recall there being four proofs of a prophet with the first being miracles. Even Bahu'll'ah preformed miracles. It is neccisary for a certain mindset and used to set a foundation of believers. It's hard to deny divenity when one witnesses such an act and thus that person becomes devote. Of course miracles can only get the movement so far so other proofs are needed. According to my mother we are not to stress such things because all those living today will be forced to deny them until we become believers ourselves. Miracles serve the eye witness only. I tthink that the seekers of this era are more logical and intelligent now then ever in history with tomorrow being more of the same. Miracles fly in the face of logic and reason and thus are not emphasized.

12-09-2011, 01:29 AM	#4
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,062	He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49) When the prophets of God appear upon this earth, their validity is established by means of certain proofs. One of the proofs is through the fulfillment of former prophecies, the second proofs are their creative words and phrases which salute the hearts of humanity, the third are their deeds and the fourth are their teachings. The prophecies deal with dates and symbols which proclaim the end of each dispensation. In former books the conditions are explained concerning subsequent manifestors of the divine plan. But those who do not follow closely these things will not be convinced by proofs such as these. This then is not a final proof. Miracles are likewise convincing to a limited number only. For instance, a Buddhist would not be convinced by the miracles of Moses which are proofs only so far as the orthodox Jews are concerned, because they love Moses. On the 44 other hand the miracles attributed to Jesus Christ are refuted by the Jews as a whole, saying "No one lives today who has seen these miracles performed, therefore, who can bear testimony to them?" A clear proof of validity lies in the achievements and here we are confronted by certain irrefutable facts. The prophets have come from the lowliest and most humiliated of the nations and in each age the prophet has raised his downtrodden nation to the highest zenith of prosperity and success among the nations of the earth. For instance, His Holiness Christ was quite alone. He was a Jew from among the Jews. He came at a time when the Israelites were under the yoke of the Romans. He revivified the people till they were transferred from one state of existence into a higher state of existence. (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 43)