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Old 11-20-2015, 03:13 PM   #1
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Hi guys! Can you help me understand stuff?

Hey everyone! I discovered these forums through a critic of the faith, ironically, but I'm hoping you can better help me understand a... controversial element of the Faith.

I want you to know I am a dedicated Baha'i. By my nature, I tend to ask questions until I am content with the answer, but I know there is a limit to what any man can comprehend about the Revelation. I've been Baha'i for two years. I love studying all aspects of the Faith. I've been very blessed since finding this Faith. My sole objective in asking tough questions about the Faith is to find a way to reconcile seeming contradictions with the clearly glorious nature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. I hope this can be a community where I can ask tough questions without upsetting people. I tend to get into parts of the Faith's history that are unknown among my American Baha'i peers, and I hate bothering them with quandaries that they are uninterested in, and that sometimes only raise doubts for individual believers. My goal is not to upset, but to understand at a level that if I ever meet another person like myself, I can help them get through their moments of doubt.

If any of the veteran Baha'is, preferably ones who read Persian/Arabic and know about the untranslated texts of Fadil Mazandarani and Ishraq Khavari, can help me, I would greatly appreciate it. I am new to using forums, so I would love any advice on how to get into a discussion about dealing with critics of the Faith, and how to address anti-Baha'i websites that use purported Baha'i texts to undermine the Faith. I imagine that this is not a subject that everyone would want to get into, so perhaps I should make a special post just for that discussion?

Thank you all for having this community! I look forward to joining the discussions.

Allah-u-Abha!

-Neal
 
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:17 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal View Post
Hey everyone! I discovered these forums through a critic of the faith, ironically, but I'm hoping you can better help me understand a... controversial element of the Faith.

I want you to know I am a dedicated Baha'i. By my nature, I tend to ask questions until I am content with the answer...

-Neal
You are most welcome, Neal,

For some odd reason, this reminds me of the Elephant's Child:

"One fine morning in the middle of the Precession of the Equinoxes this 'satiable Elephant's Child asked a new fine question that he had never asked before. He asked, 'What does the Crocodile have for dinner?' Then everybody said, 'Hush!' in a loud and dretful tone, and they spanked him immediately and directly, without stopping, for a long time."

Yes, indeed, one can be spanked for asking one question too many. After that introduction of yours, I'm getting really curious as to the nature of your questions. I dare not surmise, I just look forward to them with a curious mind.

gnat
 
Old 11-21-2015, 05:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat View Post
You are most welcome, Neal,

For some odd reason, this reminds me of the Elephant's Child:

"One fine morning in the middle of the Precession of the Equinoxes this 'satiable Elephant's Child asked a new fine question that he had never asked before. He asked, 'What does the Crocodile have for dinner?' Then everybody said, 'Hush!' in a loud and dretful tone, and they spanked him immediately and directly, without stopping, for a long time."

Yes, indeed, one can be spanked for asking one question too many. After that introduction of yours, I'm getting really curious as to the nature of your questions. I dare not surmise, I just look forward to them with a curious mind.

gnat
Hi Gnat,

You sound a trifle wary .

I trust you are well and happy.

Very best regards,

Paul
 
Old 11-21-2015, 06:00 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Niblo View Post
Hi Gnat,

You sound a trifle wary .

I trust you are well and happy.

Very best regards,

Paul
Hi Niblo,

I just love quoting The Elephant's Child. He reminds me of myself.

Thank God there's the Web these days, where you can find the answers to all the questions you've ever wanted to ask - and far more than that, to satisfy the curiosity - however excessive - of any elephant's child.

Best

from

gnat

gnat

P. S. Actually, I once wrote an academic paper in Political Science on the theme of The Elephant's Child.
 
Old 11-21-2015, 10:45 AM   #5
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Hello Neal, it would depend on what Stuff you wanted to know, so I too will wait to see!

There has been quite a few threads recently stating this aim, but disquised with other objectives/intentions , so please excuse our shortness of answers until..........

Regards Tony
 
Old 11-21-2015, 04:32 PM   #6
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Okay, so basically what happened was I got into a back-and-forth with a really vehement man, who claims he used to be a Baha'i. If anyone wants to help me find answers, they can read our discussion here:

https://www.quora.com/Did-Baháulláh-...s-and-bastards

My answer is the one that quote's Sen McGlinn. The critic's comments really just kept going, and going and... It was exhausting, honestly.

I don't recommend people get into this unless they are willing to read through some nasty accusations against the Faith.

Anyway, to get to the current questions, I am wondering if anyone would be willing to read the original quotes in Persian or Arabic that are being cited on on the website we are debating. I researched them the best I could, and I concluded they were all from Baha'i texts. There are a few from books by Baha'i scholars, rather than Tablets, and those tend to be the most controversial quotes IMHO. I was hoping someone could give me a translation of these quotes that are not as biased and twisted as the presented translations, and maybe some historical context on why the quotes say what they say, and maybe some clarity on whether these are even authenticated Tablets.

I already got some help from a friend who reads some Persian and Arabic, and based on his work I believe that there are satisfying answers out there. But I want to know what they are! And I want to leave those answers on the Quora page, so that the next seeker who finds it isn't scared away by the deceptions of Baha'u'llah's enemies.
 
Old 11-21-2015, 04:36 PM   #7
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I also want you all to know that I came to you because this man linked to this website. I read through the discussions between some of the Senior Members and users like H123. I respect and agreed with the perspectives of the Senior Members on here generally, and I saw this forum as a potential haven for people like me, who end up dealing with people like H123 or the commenter on the Quora page.
 
Old 11-21-2015, 05:05 PM   #8
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Hi,

Just very recently, we had a thread regarding same subjects:

Confusion About Courtesy
 
Old 11-21-2015, 05:45 PM   #9
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Thank you, InvestigateTruth! I will read through it shortly. I am sorry that this keeps coming up here, apparently. Hopefully I find the answers I am seeking there. I will most likely continue this line of questions there.

Anyway, it is lovely to meet all of you! I am familiar with Sen's work through his website, but I don't think I know who the rest of y'all are. I look forward to getting to know all of you!
 
Old 11-22-2015, 09:53 AM   #10
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Dear Neal!

My advice to you is, read our books! Read - don't just glance through them!

God Passes By
The Advent of Divine Justice
Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá
The Proclamation of Bahá'u'láh

Etc, etc.

You have reading to do for the next few years.

You know, these books contain a whole world. Princes dressed in gold-embroidered brocade, armies fighting, brutal prison wardens, people dying from hunger and thirst, unimaginable callousness and spiritual experience, for which there aren't any words yet.

Forget about those Internet sites for a few years.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 11-22-2015 at 09:59 AM.
 
Old 11-23-2015, 10:03 AM   #11
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Hi Neil.

The OP on that Quora is a Shia Muslim from Iran.

"Roger Spielberg" is a sock-puppet of the OP. He pretended to be someone answering the question but was in fact the one who wrote it.

This same individual is the one you know as "H123" from this forum.

The woman "Susan Bentler" on that thread is an ex-Baha'i who doesn't understand the teachings of Baha'u'llah and has complaints about Baha'i community. She is now a fundamentalist Christian. You can read her anti-Baha'i website here:

https://christianexbahai.wordpress.com/

She and "H123" cooperate together to write attacks on the Baha'i Faith on the internet - both seem to feel this is their spiritual "service" to God.
 
Old 11-23-2015, 07:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Light View Post
Hi Neil.

The OP on that Quora is a Shia Muslim from Iran.

"Roger Spielberg" is a sock-puppet of the OP. He pretended to be someone answering the question but was in fact the one who wrote it.

This same individual is the one you know as "H123" from this forum.

The woman "Susan Bentler" on that thread is an ex-Baha'i who doesn't understand the teachings of Baha'u'llah and has complaints about Baha'i community. She is now a fundamentalist Christian. You can read her anti-Baha'i website here:

https://christianexbahai.wordpress.com/

She and "H123" cooperate together to write attacks on the Baha'i Faith on the internet - both seem to feel this is their spiritual "service" to God.
How do you know all of this? Is it intuition and familiarity with their personalities/writings styles? Or is there an actual trail to show this?

I am mostly astonished and just confused at this point. Also, kind of embarrassed I wasted my time if this is true.

As for those readings, I own all of the books. I am kind of reading them all simultaneously, usually based on a topic, cross referencing them. This was actually a bit of a change for me to go to a website besides the official reference site, or Bahai-Library. If Matthew is correct, then I will probably stop worrying so much about these guys.
 
Old 11-23-2015, 11:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Neal View Post
As for those readings, I own all of the books. I am kind of reading them all simultaneously, usually based on a topic, cross referencing them. This was actually a bit of a change for me to go to a website besides the official reference site, or Bahai-Library. If Matthew is correct, then I will probably stop worrying so much about these guys.
Dear Neal,

That is exactly how I used to read the books, for many, many years. But, some years ago, I started to translate them into my mother tongue. Then you read in a different manner, being obliged to analyze every single word. Well, I can tell you, that was a completely new experience.

Best

from

gnat
 
Old 11-24-2015, 04:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal View Post
How do you know all of this? Is it intuition and familiarity with their personalities/writings styles? Or is there an actual trail to show this?
I am very familiar with their writing styles, grammar particularities, arguments, personalities after a year / multiple years of seeing their attacks on the Faith.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 04:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Matthew Light View Post
I am very familiar with their writing styles, grammar particularities, arguments, personalities after a year / multiple years of seeing their attacks on the Faith.
Well, crap. I can totally see Roger being H123 in hindsight, that makes total sense. I'm not sure whether the OP was also this same man, but the rest of what you are saying makes sense.

Thank you for this observation, Matthew Light. I think having the curtain pulled back helped make this more underwhelming.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 05:17 AM   #16
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A bit like businessowners who rate their own businesses on the web, assuming multiple identities - a lack of variation, perhaps, like
1. ***** Best food I'v ever eaten!
2. ***** Fabulous service!
3. ***** Will be my favourite hangout!

And then, when they rate competitors:
1. X Don't go there - it's poison!
2. X First place I've been to, that's served fried cats - fur on the steak.
3. X My granny went there for a meal. R. I. P. She passed away three hours later.

gnat

Last edited by gnat; 11-24-2015 at 05:42 AM.
 
Old 02-27-2016, 12:02 PM   #17
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I'd come across many anti baha'is and C. breakers on youtube.. :/ I find out that they like to cherry pick, and are in a way irrationals, coming from an Atheist background I know that their intention is not to debate and learn from what is being debate, their only purpose is to show supremacy, their purpose is to win an argument, when I became a baha'i my friends attacked me constantly for believing in this guy named Baha'u'llah and how irrational it was, although I raise enough arguments to show then the why of my beliefs, it end up being and argument of who was right or wrong.
No Id learn to ignore them :/.
 
Old 02-27-2016, 12:08 PM   #18
Tony Bristow-Stagg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vice View Post
I'd come across many anti baha'is and C. breakers on youtube.. :/ I find out that they like to cherry pick, and are in a way irrationals, coming from an Atheist background I know that their intention is not to debate and learn from what is being debate, their only purpose is to show supremacy, their purpose is to win an argument, when I became a baha'i my friends attacked me constantly for believing in this guy named Baha'u'llah and how irrational it was, although I raise enough arguments to show then the why of my beliefs, it end up being and argument of who was right or wrong.
No Id learn to ignore them :/.
Much Wisdom in those thoughts

"O SON OF DUST! The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay". (The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh)

The discussion should be animated by love and not by arguing. A good quote is quotes is:

If two individuals dispute … both are wrong. (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 84)

Shoghi Effendi explains it further:

The more the friends argue back and forth and maintain, each side, that their point of view is the right one, the worse the whole situation becomes. (Shoghi Effendi, Directives of the Guardian, pp. 17-18)

Regards Tony

Last edited by tonyfish58; 02-27-2016 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Removed some quotes
 
Old 02-27-2016, 01:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vice View Post
I'd come across many anti baha'is and C. breakers on youtube.. :/ I find out that they like to cherry pick, and are in a way irrationals, coming from an Atheist background I know that their intention is not to debate and learn from what is being debate, their only purpose is to show supremacy, their purpose is to win an argument, when I became a baha'i my friends attacked me constantly for believing in this guy named Baha'u'llah and how irrational it was, although I raise enough arguments to show then the why of my beliefs, it end up being and argument of who was right or wrong.
No Id learn to ignore them :/.
I too have come across a fair deal of that material. And my final conclusion is based on my intense dislike of boredom and parrot-like repetition of the same arguments over and over again: they are just soo boring and my life is too short to bother about such people.

Best

from

gnat
 
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