whine of astonsihment

It's 4:00 a.m. here and I will respond to your other post when my eyes aren't watering but for the moment - please don't take mistake my own personal and innately cultural arrogance as stemming from my Baha'i beliefs because it does not.

Baha'u'llah commands us to 'prefer all religionists before ourselves' and to 'present His teachings to others with as much humility and respect as though we were presenting a gift to a king'. Perhaps I find this most difficult to do with Orthodox Christians because I know too much about the Church rather than not enough and I have much to say about its present day reality which is what matters to me and should matter to you as well.

So, do forgive the 'passion' of my words because they come straight from my heart, as I know yours also do. As both of us learn to improve our ability to exchange our thoughts and beliefs with greater humility and respect we will find we have much more in common than we do in conflict.

Yasou for now Orthodox - I'm sure the best is yet to come.
:sleep

Livindesert

Matthew 22:37-40 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Orthodox

Look forward to defending holy orthodoxy. But I would like your opinion on the words of Livin.

Orthodox

Is that all thats right about Christianity? Everthing else false?

Livindesert

QFT Thanks whine I had not yet read those quotes.

Orthodox

Btw why should we take this verse literally?

Livindesert

There is nothing false,just they went off the information they had at the time. The next manefestation I am sure will have much to say and change about the way Baha'is do things.

Orthodox

So The belief that Christ rose physically is not wrong? The belief of theosis not wrong? The belief of Christ being God Incarnate not wrong? Alright.

Livindesert

[QUOTE=Orthodox;4608]So The belief that Christ rose physically is not wrong? The belief of theosis not wrong? The belief of Christ being God Incarnate not wrong? Alright.[/QUOTE

The spiritual truths behind these teachings is correct. To me that is all that matters the rest is minor details.

Yeshua

Hi all! :wub

Thank you so much for welcoming me to the forum - I can't wait to get to know you all better in the future. Already I feel very at home with everybody's kind posts.

Hi Cire Bless you brother. Your words are very true. I am happy that you had the chance to experience Roman Catholic Christianity from such a sincere soul as your sister. It is indeed a wonderful tradition within Christianity! And I say that as a person who has my reservations about certain facets of Catholic theology (eg Papal Infallibility and divorce). If ever you wish to study Catholic spirituality in the future (and I would recommend it), may I suggest you read the works of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila (both mystics). His poetry - especially the Dark Night of the Soul - is utterly sublime and alive with the passion of Divine Love. He was really a man touched by god and if you are in anyway familiar with the Sufi poets Rumi and Hafez (of whom I am a big fan) then you will find yourself right at home. Here's a beautiful musical rendition of the Dark Night of the Soul by Loreena McKennit:
And I agree, one's freedom of religion and personal search for truth is of the highest significance. Even though I am not a Hindu or Sufi (and thus disagree with these religions theologically), I can read the Bhagavad Gita and the Mathnawi of Rumi and find witin them genuine expressions of a heart burned by the fire of God's all-encompassing love, as the saying attributed to Christ goes in the Gospel of Thomas, 'Anybody who is near to me is near to the Fire (God), anybody who is far from me is far from the Kingdom'. Indeed I can vouch along with the author of the Book of Hebrews in the NT that 'our God is a consuming fire!' And I love being burnt by the fires of his love! Sorry I tend to ramble a bit :wub I'm excited!
In sum I believe there are grains of truth and inspiration scattered in all religions - even though I do personally believe Christianity, and even more so Orthodox Christianity, to be the most enlightened path.

Hi Livindesert :wub What a fascinating name! A living desert? Would that be a pudding or a wasteland 'desert' :tongue ? I agree with you. Orthodox Christianity is so sublime. I remember vividly the first time I entered an Orthodox Church...the ICONS! the Byzantine Chant! The INCENSE! THE ICONOSTASIS! THE RITUAL! THE BEAUTY! The first thing I thought was that in the Divine Liturgy I had entered a sacred place outwith time and space, where heaven and earth met and the angels rejoiced with me. I adore Theosis - have you ever heard of the concept? Is there something similar to it in the Baha'i Faith?

Howdi ho Pheonix :wub I am very sorry that you gained such a negative view of Orthodoxy from that fellow. There are always bad apples in the fruit basket, but one sour grape does not mean the rest of the fruit is bad. On the contrary, Orthodoxy is ripe with lovely, spirit-filled people and I have had the privilige of knowing them of recent! And I pray that you do as well.

Now, now Wine of Astonishment :wub :wub :wub :wub I cannot believe my initial post led you to join this forum! What a wonderful thing to occur! I rreciperocate your feelings and must tell you that I am as glad to meet you as you seem to be in meeting me. I feel that Orthodox Christianity has been the most faithful tradition of Christianity in mantaining the apostolic traditions. The Protestant Churches are fairly new and are filled with innovations not found in the Bible or Writings of the Church Fathers (eg Sola Scriptura, Christ Body and Blood merely symbolic) so Protestantism is a big no-no for me. Now Catholicism. An Apostolic Church but one which has had additions to the faith once delivered: An infallible Pope, the filioque etc. Orthodoxy is pristine! When I have more time (if it is alright) I will pop up a thread and explain to you more fully my reasons. In the mean time - lets just get to know each other!

And Orthodox :wub Well you couldn't have a better name! I am heartened to find a fellow Christian on this forum and I hope that we can grow in love together - and maybe you can help me with my increasing turn to Orthodoxy! How splendid! On this forum I get an unexpected and unsought after bonus - not only a wonderful bunch of Baha'is but a fellow Christian of the Orthodox tradition!

God Bless you all :wub:wub:wub:wub

Orthodox

[QUOTE=Livindesert;4610]The things I mentioned are not minor things, but incredibly important doctrines detailing the very nature of God.

Thank you for your testimony Yeshua.

Livindesert

Well I originally adopted the moniker Livindesert since it was in Iraq by Ur of the Chaldees that I started my current spiritual quest. Hence I found my spiritual life in the desert.

As far as Theosis I have read a little bit on the concept and it seems similar to some Baha'i teachings I have read where man through the manefestations of God infinately move closer to him but never can become him. But I am hesitant to say anything more as I am still a Baha'i newbie though.

Orthodox

I should describe what theosis is. Theosis or divinisation is the process by which humans become divine. Not literally the divine essence of the eternal God, Father son and spirit, but divine through touching the divine grace of God. This is why St Athanasius says "God became man so that man may become god." He does not mean we are to be God on the same level as the Father son and spirit, but gods through adoption, touching on divinity not the same substance which the father son and spirit are of.

Theosis doesn't happen at one point, it is a state we are forever looking forward to and continue to hope God gives us his grace. It is similiar to that of the Protestant doctrine of Santification. But not quite.

Yeshua

Amen Brother :wub:wub:wub:wub:wub:wub:wub

BruceDLimber

Feel free to have the courtesy to capitalize the name of our religion, as we do yours! And BTW, the apostrophe is an important part because it changes the pronunciation of the word.

And you're mistaken because there's been a great deal more Divine Revelation provided humanity since the time of Christ!

Indeed, Jesus Himself said there was much more to be told but that we weren't ready yet!

Fortunately, the time has come when more can be--and has been!--revealed.

Bestt! :-)

Bruce

whine of astonsihment

OK then, I'll try my best on 4 hours of sleep.

I'm not sure what JESUS Himself specifically said about the reality and nature of the Holy Trinity (perhaps you are?), although I have watched and read about how many denominations, dogmas, and doctrines, royalty and religionists, both rationale and radical, theologists and theocrats, have disputed and divided themselves, with both arguments and armies, for so many centuries now - just over the nature, meaning, and mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Frankly, I find it rather sadly reminiscent of a bunch of dogs chasing their own and each others' tails and it leaves me spiritually cold and unmoved. So do not ask me to weigh in on the whole 'omousios' debate or where Jesus properly belongs on a 2 dimensional geometric representation of His relationship to God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and whether it is an equilateral, isosceles, or scalene triangle. KYRIE ELEYSON IMAS! PLEASE! Absolutely none of it helps to draw me closer to God or solve a single one the many problems I see plaguing the life of the individual or society.

I DO however know that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within us and as far as my opinion on the Bible quote about loving the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, and soul? I think it's the ONLY expression of any Holy Trinity that holds any value or relevance for me personally.

I would also add that Baha'u'llah, in the spirit of His Return, takes Christ's teaching of 'love thy neighbor as thyself" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto to you" to the next and higher level with His restatement of this critically important spiritual concept and teaches us "blessed is he who preferreth his brother to himself'

I believe this is just one little fragment of what Jesus was referring to when He said "and many more things I have to tell you but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit when the Spirit of Truth is come He will guide you unto all truth" God willing, we have spiritually matured enough now and are finally 'ready, willing, and able to bear' the rest of what He already knew and wanted to tell us 2000 years ago. That is the reason for Baha'u'llah's Revelation in this day and age.

whine of astonsihment

You can believe what you like Yeshua - but you could also check my profile and you see that I joined sometime after midnight and this is the only thread I have posted to (so far) - so believe me when I tell you it was solely your post that caught my interest and moved me to actually join Bahai Forums last night - even though I've been aware of its internet presence for a few years now.

Your reply to Livin listed all the things I too most love about the Orthodox Church, the art and architecture, chanting, beautiful rituals, incense, etc. and fortunately, as a Baha'i I am both free and encouraged to worship in fellowship with people of all religions by both Baha'u'llah and His entire Administrative Order. Can you really say the same for the hierarchy of either the Catholic or Orthodox Church? That's not been my own experience or that of other Orthodox and Catholic Christians I've spoken with. Baha'u'llah's Administrative Order and the principles they are based on are little more comprehensive and clearly defined than Christs's words "thou art Peter/Petros and upon this rock I will build my church" or the honorary title/designation of "first among equals" bestowed by the ancient patriarchs upon the 'Bishop of Rome' in honor of St Peter's martyrdom there, and subsequently used as a pseudo-theological justification for the institution of the papacy.

The Baha'i Administrative Order is in fact, a basic blueprint for and matrix of the fulfulment of Jesus' supplication to His Father for God's Kingdom to "come on earth as it is in Heaven", as penned only by Baha'u'llah and His authorized successors. It's current embryonic size and state of development is probably looks as different today from its ultimate divine destiny, (which can be witnessed only with the fullness of time), as a first trimester fetus looks different from a full-term newborn. That doesn't stop us Baha'is from loving and nurturing it right now just as though it had already been born - but it might take the rest of the world a little longer to see and experience its beauty and potential.

However, I'm a little surprised and mildly disappointed at your critique of Protestantism and my own impressions and opinions of it are quite different from yours - but let's leave a little something for another day before I find myself spending way too much time in on-line debates - yet again!
:wacko

Yeshua

:lol

Whine, when I said 'I cannot believe my initial post led you to this forum' I meant it in the sense, 'Oh how fortunate! I can't believe anybody would actually join a forum because of me' not because i didn't believe you lollollol

Well I'm not Orthodox but I have been going to an Orthodox Church for the past few years, as well as my own Catholic Church. Anybody is welcome to attend a Roman Catholic or Orthodox Mass. No doors are closed! And as concerns Protestantism, half of my family are Protestants and I very much enjoy their services - especially Pentecostal ones - and they are a real, living tradition within the Christian Church. It is just theologically that I disagree with them, but on the whole I share with them the same fundamental religious tenents, so they are fully 'Orthodox,' just not - however - what I believe to be the closest to the original Church.

whine of astonsihment

Yes I can see that. Actually I'm twice as bright and only half as cranky when I've had 8 hours sleep instead of 4 ...

And yes, I know that most Christian churches are open and welcoming to others Yeshua, but how many Catholic and Orthodox clergy sincerely encourage their followers to also attend and worship in fellowship with Baha'is and others. I don't know but I suppose it could and maybe even does happen.... think I'll sleep on it some more after a bite to eat and some fresh air.
:unsure:unsure:unsure

bwb

I kind of feel that way myself. Religious doctrines are really only a means to an end. Maybe you'd enjoy these sweet stories from Baha'i history as a break from that:
4 beautiful inspiring stories of religious tolerance from Baha'i history