Dud the Demon

Cire perdue, and all Baha'is, and all non Bahai's,

I feel that all Baha'is believe that Baha'u'allah was the last/latest messenger sent by God to humanity.

Do you also believe that Baha'u'allah was the final messenger to be sent by God?

Praying for enlightenment,

Dud (the demon).

InvestigateTruth

Baha'u'llah is not the final messenger. There is no final Messenger in Baha'i belief. But the next one will not come for at least 1000 years after Baha'u'llah.

tonyfish58

Hello Dud

I been watching from the side since you have started posting and find you questions interesting.

Yes we believe Baha'u'llah is the latest Messenger from God and we are told that not until the expiration of a full 1000 years will there be another. We are told that this timeline is as written and if anyone comes within this time claiming to be a Messenger from God, then we are to reject the claim.

It may be interesting to note that Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last message from God in the age of Prophesy and Muhammad ended the age of prophesy about the day of God to come.

The Bab started the age of fulfillment of these prophesy's and this age is to last a very long time (500000 years) and it is envisaged they will have numerous messengers. Link to a discussion on this - Ages and Cycles

We live in exciting times, at the beginning of a whole new age of progress for mankind. We are much to small to contemplate how big this all is.

I do not try to think too much about that as our primary task at this time is to get to know and love God and usher in the laws and guidance that will enable Mankind to dig its way out of the perversity it has got itself in to.

Thanks for the posts and questions

Regards Tony

Sen McGlinn

Yes, Jack McLean and Udo Schaeffer at least write theology explicitly as theologians. I think I recall Momen saying he was a Bahai theologian too. The term is used by Abdu'l-Baha, in the form ilahiyyun; it's not an innovation.

If the UHJ did say that there are no theologians in the Bahai Faith, certainly I would agree. But I have not seen any such ruling, and when the same issue arose in the 1980's, when Schaeffer's works came out, the UHJ wrote explicitly that Bahai theology was in principle good - providing it is done well of course. The idea of "no theology" and "no theologians" is kitab-e hearsay, like the one about the Bahai Faith having no rituals, and numerous other misunderstandings.

Scholars, and the learned of Baha'i (Hands of the Cause, Counsellors) are not necessarily theologians. These are 3 different things. To be a scholar requires a certain ability and training: I have never called myself a scholar, it would be immodest. Bahai scholarship has various fields: there are historians, theologians, apologists, and philologists of the Bahai Faith. Theology is one field of study (what Bahais usually call 'deepening'), while scholarship refers to a degree of proficiency in some field of study. In the study of religion, it's important for an author to tell his readers if he is writing as a theologian (as a believer, "Faith seeking understanding") or as a social scientist studying the phenomenon of religion from the outside.

The Learned of Baha are not necessarily theologians, although some of the Persian Hands were: nor are they necessarily scholars, although a number have been. What makes them the Learned of Baha is a certain kind of wisdom, applicable to the needs of the Bahai community. So Baha'u'llah addresses 3 classes of people, when he says, "O concourse of the rulers and of the learned and the wise!" (Tablets of Baha’u'llah, p. 239)
More on this on my blog.

Nobody has designated me as a theologian: it's a study I undertook, just as others have taken up history and used their talents to become Bahai historians, or philosophy and become Bahai philosophers. The study of the Bahai writings and teachings is open to all and is, potentially, very helpful to the Bahai community, if findings are shared.

Certainly Bahais should draw on the knowledge of Bahai theologians, historians, translators and philologists (literature experts), and also on the ABMs and other designated officers, but in a way that is quite different to the way the faithful have often turned to religious experts and leaders in other religious communities. In the Bahai Faith, your faith and your religious destiny are in your own hands: you cannot shrug off responsibility by saying, "I was just following what X or Y said." If you find something that I, or any other author, have written helps you to resolve a difficulty in understanding, or enriches your understanding, well and good. That's the purpose of the writing after all. If you don't find it helpful, keep searching -- even to China.

Fadl

There is no path to becoming a 'Baha'i' theologian, and I think you are being a bit too flattering to the Wilmette Institute, as good as it may be. If I wanted to be a theologian and be trained as such, there are hundreds of paths open for me, but none them are Baha'i. Perhaps I studied theology and earned all number of certificates, degrees, accolades and acknowledgements. Perhaps I am published in journals, and even the Pope seeks out my theological expertise. I guess such a person would indeed be a theologian if any person ever was. But the point is, there are not Baha'i theologians. There is no track to be a Baha'i theologian, although I suppose I could be a Baha'i who is a theologian. Abu'l Fadl was such a person. Abu'l Fadl became a theologian through the paths that one becomes a theologian in the Shia' faith, and then became a Baha'i. He was also a great Baha'i scholar, and perhaps even the greatest Baha'i scholar to ever live so far.

There is an interesting thing about Baha'i scholars. They certainly exist, and if they didn't, the progress of the faith would be in big trouble. I have met some Baha'i scholars, who in my opinion are absolutely brilliant. Strangely, I have never ever met one who ever said such a thing about his or her self. They are always the most humble, self effacing people you would ever hope to meet.

Not all Baha'i scholars are that way. Some boast loudly of their qualifications and acheivements, and use this to justify their defiance and unsubmissiveness to the Institutions, who really ought to heed them because they are the learned and know better than anyone else, even better than the supreme governing body of God itself. It's indeed a strange thing when scholars take such an arrogant view of things. After all, according to divine writ (that many of them may have personally helped translate into English) the institutions of the faith have the divine authority to make rulings and decisions in the Cause, and not the learned. I've always found this fact both disturbing and sadly ironic.

There is a certain quality that a good Baha'i scholar has which seems to prohibit him from ever admiting to being a scholar. It's really true. I remember as a new Baha'i, still only a youth, when people would say about me as a kind of flattery and encouragement "he's our local scholar, etc." and it used to make me blush, and realize that a Baha'i scholar must be a great thing to be and strive for. Now I find it is much easier to read Baha'i scholarship than it is to shake a scholars hand, because they will just not admit to it. Conversely, the other kind of Baha'i scholars, seem to be in a situtation where they can no longer exist within the faith, and that is a great great tragedy. I wonder if it is only a coincindence that the scholars who seem a bit more proud than the others, who frequently mention their credentials and qualifications as scholars, also seem to get into more disputes and become enstranged from the community in higher numbers. It seems there is at least possibly a correlation there.


I hope to never cease in gaining deeper and deeper knowledge about this faith, and God willing it may be of use to the Cause some day. At the same time I seek refuge with God from those proud Baha'i "scholars" and "theologians" and hope for the company of the lowly yet enlightened "learned of Baha."

Dud the Demon

Tonyfish58,
I thank you for your encouragement. I am happy that you have found this thread interesting. I feel that all of the replies have given me knowledge. Thank you especialy for referring me to a further source of knowledge.
God bless you,

Dud the demon

BruceDLimber

Dud, you should now have the overveiw of the Faith I sent you, so I'll just remind you that you should feel free to post any further questions here: they'll be most welcome! :-)

Best regards,

Bruce

Dud the Demon

Bruce,

I will get to it due course.
At the moment I am researching the Orthodox Baha'i faith and also Rumi (the sufi poet)
I feel that my research may stimulate further questions......
Please bear with me.
Thanks

Dud

tonyfish58

Dud - This is only for your information from a Baha'i that has lived in a community that had covenant breakers in its midst. Its not to condemn but to give you a point of view from a Baha'i firm in the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

There is only one Baha'i Faith, the research you are undertaking will take you away from the true path of what it is to be a Baha'i. This is a Covenant Breakers Site.

I advise of this as we are told not to pursue the writings or listen to the discourses of these people because it is like a poison. From my point of view it is not only poison to a Baha'i, but it may be indeed poison to any soul.

To gain the most we can out of this new revelation from God we must adhere firmly to the prophets Words, any deviation from the word destroys its potency to do good.

To conclude - You have indeed stimulated more discussion

I pray that you will be divinely guided when you view these sites.

Regards & Cheers Tony

Dud the Demon

tonyfish58,

What are the names of the Covenant Breakers' sites u have in mind?

I feel that your prayer will be answered.

God's love,

Dud (the demon)

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dud the Demon What are the names...?

They doubtless have multiple names, but any time you run across anything referring to anything other than just the Baha'i Faith, such as "orthodox Baha'is" or any other variant name; or see any reference (usually a put-down) to "Haifan Baha'is" or any so-called "Guardian" other than Shoghi Effendi, you are DEFINITELY looking at convenant-breaker stuff and nothing connected to the Baha'i Faith itself!

(It might be noted also that a number of these groups are extremely small--or even only a single individual!--but can APPEAR large through the magic of Internet and web posting.)

Once again, please feel free to ask us any questions you may have; and we'll be more than happy to answer them! :-)

Bruce

cire perdue

We don't keep up with them, don't check on them, don't know them, just simply do not bother...... I am usually the cause of any if not all of my problems, and the most common defense to prevent acknowledgement of that is to blame others. Everyone is not able to see themselves to the extent necessary to be able to accept criticism or disagreement. Some are very damaged and are incapable of introspection. Narcissism seems to be a very western trait that is all too common.

I have seen these sites in passing, and treat them as Eunice Braun considered Maon Remey, as not to bother myself. She headed the American Publishing Trust for many years and then was an appointed Auxilliary Board Member. It happens. She went through the whole thing and knew him. She passed away in the last few years and was in her 90's.

Dud the Demon

Look Guys, I am beginning to get bad vibes about yr Baha'i faith.
I do not believe in being told what to read or not to read by anybody; I get suspicious that the person telling me has something to hide! I feel you should all know better; that you actually have not an iota of control over others, only total control over yourself. It is known by some as 'free will'.

aidan

Dud you are totally free to express your freedom to information and you wil read what you chose to read.I think that my much better informed brethren fear that as you are very new to the Baha'i Faith may be confused or ev3n misled by other people who have personal issues with the Baha'i Faith.You are clearly a clever person just be aware that,commom with the other world faiths.not evey one is benevolent toward us and I pray for them daily

cire perdue

I am aware that at least one person said for you not to read covenant breaker material. We do not keep up with the CB's. You are of course free to do so. Remember there is a range of people here responding to you. We are asked to avoid them and we do that. We do it with our consent, but when we have been instructed and advised by the central figures of the Faith or one of the Institutions to do something, we tend to be obedient to them, amazingly so in Western eyes. We do not need to re-fight CB battles among ourselves. There are so many of examples of humility in this Faith that it is just understood as a necessary attribute. Westerners however mis-equate humility with humiliation which it is not, not whatsoever.

I don't know if it has been explained, but Baha'is are not supposed to look at other Baha'is' lives and criticize. We are supposed to love and accept others regardless of their flaws and see the positive in each other. Only the institutions which function in the role which in the past was previously filled by clergy are to correct and guide individuals. We focus on our own flaws. One of the daily prayers says, "I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might...". I happen to believe that means I can change only myself. However it is known if we change ourselves it affects others.

cire perdue

Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is not new to Baha'is. It is not part of 99.99999999% of Baha'i lives, or even less. It has a presence on the net...........so does the dodo.

I know someone that found the Faith by being in a covenant breaker group. She ultimately joined the Faith with Margerite Sears as a friend. She was instrumental in the publication of a favorite Baha'i book of mine.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dud the Demon I do not believe in being told what to read or not to read by anybody; I get suspicious that the person telling me has something to hide!

Then you should have no problem whatever with the Baha'i Faith:

Not only are you free to read whatever you please, but there are literally no secrets in the Baha'i Faith: what you see is what you get, and we don't even have any sort of hierarchy!: everyone is "just a Baha'i."

So please go ahead and ask your questions, and we'll do our best to answer you.

Many regards, :-)

Bruce

cire perdue

Justice is seeing things through God's eyes. I am not sure how close one can get to that, but if one wants to see criticism of the Baha'i Faith I am sure it is there. I think it can be hard not to take on other people's issues. I can remember a time as a young Baha'i when someone could come up with something that really disturbed me. In another country there was a group following someone who had decided that Baha'u'llah was the Supreme Manifestation of all time, more than Christ, or anyone. It eventually died away, but it was scary to hear about it.

It can be hard not to attempt to take sides. As an American with ideas of freemom which really aren't enlightened ones, but hedonism, it can be easy to want to argue with authorities. Hey, it's my right? Correct? It is a relief not to have to do that now. I don't have to solve anybody else's problems with authority only my own. I know that when there have been scholars that created controversy and involved other Baha'is in their community that it took a toll that for some people still feels painful decades later.

Contrary to its appearance this is not being submissive or ignoring facts it is being wise and letting things age so to speak. By giving things time and not reacting I have always gotten answers. If I had taken the sort of stand that I could not relinquish I would have taken action that I would regret. I have done that enough in this life. I may have learned not to jump to conclusions and stick to them. Prayerful is a good way to approach things.......... It does not always work out as one would think.

aidan

CP would you develop the underlined segment of your post please

cire perdue

to enlarge on this due to keeping the confidence of people I know. There was a prominent Baha'i who after graduate studies based on the Faith and years of working whose private life was not in tune with the laws. He was very popular and loved by many Baha'is. He was quite a "showman". Due to the confidentiality of the Faith when someone is disenroll or rights removed, we will never hear anything but the person's side of the story. I know people today who are still hurting over this. We are not going to have it explained why so and so's rights were removed. We have to trust which is not a very western mindset, as we all have the right to get crazy if anyone disagrees with us, more of that freedom..... One reason we are not supposed to dig about the covenant breakers and people criticizing the Faith is it is emotionally difficult to separate from these things at times for anyone. One doesn't need to do that to himself!

tonyfish58

Dud - By the way Advice is Advice, not an instruction

I was advising you do not visit any of these sites as mentioned in BruceDLimber's Post.

I was not dictating what you can read, just informing you of what Baha'u'llah states the consequences may be.

Baha'is have nothing to Hide, but we like to offer sound advice. It is your choice what you do with that advice.

Cheers Tony

Dud the Demon

Aidan,
Thank you for that clarification. Understood. My initial misunderstanding.
A OK now!
Dud