Dud the Demon

I believe I come to the Baha'is in order to learn.
So I will be asking many questions.
I have no religious or non-religious affiliation with any group of other individuals.
I believe I have an open mind, but I have been told I am 'blocked' by a very good friend of mine who I believe to be a devout Roman Catholic.
I was brought up by my adoptive parents as a Christian, in the hope that I would be confirmed in their faith, in time.
That time has never come, and I believe it never will.

However, I strongly endorse freedom of personal belief (no matter what), provided that belief does not hurt anybody else.

I was married to a Roman catholic General Practioner for 25 years.
I have three children from that marriage who are living in the UK.
I have been married to a Buddhist for the last 10 years.
I have two Thai step children.

I love talking to others; I'm on MSN hotmail as dudpal@live.com

I am particularly interested in repression and persecution around the world.
It was the persecution of Baha'is in the Islamic republic of Iran, by laws endorsed by the Esteemed leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, that prompted my first contact with the Thai NSA. They sent me 3 docs. supporting the case the Baha's were persecuted. Victor promised more information, but I have never received it.
I could not understand the reason(s) for the persecution. I still can't. I had assumed Iran was a God fearing country (if only by it's name!). It appears I was wrong in that assumption.

I am also most interested in the Zionist/Palestinian question, in which I agree with the views expounded by (non Zionist) orthodox Jews. I also have sympathy for views publicly expressed by Mammoud Ahmadinejad on this topic.

I also have great interest in helping people to understand the true reasons for the 9/11 tragedy and it's terrible repercussions; I think these were honestly expressed by Osama bin Laden and have since been repeated many times, notably by the 2012 USA presidential candidate Ron Paul.
Well that's enough about me.

I have a question, to which I have not yet seen an answer. It may well have a trivial answer. But humour me, if you can, if you have the knowledge which I lack!

Is it significant that Ali Khamenei refrained from acknowledging any divine confirmations when endorsing the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran?

Hoping that somebody will attempt to answer those questions, or question me further about them,

Dudley Palmer.

Sen McGlinn

No, I don't think it is significant that Khamenei refrained from acknowledging any divine confirmations when endorsing the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran (see The Bahai question). The theocratic leadership in Iran is rationalist and legalistic in orientation: it rests on the theory that leadership should be in the hands of an expert in applying religious law (an expert in fiqh; see the wikipedia page). It is the messianic-apocalyptic wing of the religious spectrum that is inclined to seek and claim divine confirmations and even direct divine guidance.

Thanks for the personal introduction. Welcome. My own "about" page is here:
About Sen « Sen McGlinn's blog

Dud the Demon

Dear Sen,
Thanks for your opinion, and thanks for referring me to Wikipedia on fiqu.
I was interested to learn that you consider that it is only those from the "messianic-apocalyptic wing of the religious spectrum" that would be concerned with divine confirmations and that the people in the government of Iran are not from this wing.
That being the case, why do you think the letter from the Cultural Council mentioned the hope of 'Divine confirmations' when it sent it's drafting of the directions on treating Baha'is to Ali Khamenei for his approval?

The request and approval are copied below:-

Wishing you divine confirmations,
Secretary of the Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council
Dr. Seyyed Mohammad Golpaygani
[Signature]

[Note in the handwriting of Mr. Khamenei]
In the Name of God!
The decision of the Supreme Revolutionary Cultural Council seems sufficient.
I thank you gentlemen for your attention and efforts.
[signed:] Ali Khamenei

Also interested to see that the IHJ appear to have considered you a threat. How secure are they?

All the best,
Dud (the Demon).

arthra

Welcome Dud...

Dud wrote above:

"Also interested to see that the IHJ appear to have considered you a threat. How secure are they?"

Directed at Sen I think this is a rather odd question.. Sen of course will respond as he chooses. A believers status is his own business.

When referring to the Universal House of Justice Baha'is normally refer to it as the House of Justice or the full title.

It is the supreme governing body for Baha'is elected every five years..

I think the causes of 9/11 are probably wrapt up in multiple factors like a lot of issues today.

Had the world leaders responded to the summons of Baha'u'llah to set up a representative world parliament and an international court of arbitration in the 1870's I highly doubt we would be where we are today.. nonetheless we do have the United Nations and an international Court so I suppose some progress is being made along those lines.

Dud the Demon

To Athra,
Thanks for the welcome.

As you say the IHJ sentence was to Sen. I believe that you need to read what he has written before you could be expected to understand that statement, and the question about the security of the IHJ. If and when you do, I would be delighted to discuss it further.

As regards the use of the abbreviation for the Baha'i governing body. Firstly I am not a believer in dogma, secondly I am not a Baha'i, don't get me started!

I am sorry to learn that you either have no clear understanding of the causes of 9/11 or else are reluctant to impart that understanding to others.

If I were a Baha'i, I believe I would be very thankful for the recognition you do have in the World today.

As regards your quote, I see you do a lot of posting on here. Would you think it impertinent of me to ask what else you do?

Felicitations,
Dud (the Demon)

arthra

Dud,

For accuracy... it's not "IHJ" ..

Dud wrote:

"Would you think it impertinent of me to ask what else you do?"

Whatever questions you have...

Dud the Demon

Arthra,
What else do you do?
Dud, (the Demon).

cire perdue

These are the thoughts of an individual and do not represent this Faith. I give these sincerely, but they are my personal response.

I don't think it is possible to understand 9/11 when it is based on a multiple choice question that has those choices, because it is all of those things and none. I also think that any answer anyone here might give will lead to mis-interpretation and an attempt to create an answer that is as inadequate as that multiple choice question is. It does not take into account Progressive Revelation, the spiritual condition of mankind as a whole, that the solutions to the world's problems are not political, and that everyone is interlinked. That poll's answers to me only infer blame rather than cause.

In my personal opinion 9/11/2001 was a Tragedy, but not a total suprise if the world's problems are considered as a whole with an adequate criteria. Let me give you my favorite illustration from THE RISE OF CHRISTIANITY by Rodney Stark. In approximately 150 and 250 A.D. there were plagues in Rome. The pagans fled the city and left sick family members by the sides of the road. However the Christians stayed and nursed the sick and dying. Christians died doing so and they reduced the death rate by a third with simple nursing care. That is not the significance of this however. What was important is that by the power of belief men who in former times would abandon the sick, now were willing to give their lives to care for others even if they died. That is the power of faith, love, and the true nature of religion. (THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE by William James from which many of the principles of AA were derived can be applicable as well, but it is not nearly so interesting)

Today in Iran there are Baha'is who are also demonstrating this human capacity to accept suffering without bitterness and show the world that faith remains a powerful part of man's spiritual inheritance. Apparently this is necessary in order to elevate the consciousness of all mankind. Perhaps it will not have to be as painful in another 1000 years.

LordOfGoblins

errrr?
Dogma? Dont get you started? should be very thankful? Have i missed something here? No please enlighten me.
Every man and his dog has an opinion and thinks he knows what caused 911... Didnt you know? even my drunken friends will readily sit around at a party professing all manner of knowledge and wisdom as to why this event happened. I had in fact given a huge speil and posted it but then deleted it because I thought i was too much for someone who has just made an introduction in this forum.
Dont get you started on what? Im all ears... How many posts have you shed on this forum before you are elluding to some baggage of issues you have perhaps against he faith or against Bahai understanding or Bahai insitutions which mind you you cannot even abbreviate properly.
Go ahead, give your rant... I will sit back and get some popcorn for my own personal entertainment at people who profess wisdom but rather resemble better that of clowns. I am a computer programmer...

Dud the Demon

Arthra,
Thanks for correcting me, yes a more accurate abbreviation of "The Universal House of Justice" would be UHJ, not IHJ.
Dud.

Dud the Demon

Lord of Goblins,
If I were a Baha'i I would pray for your divine enlightenment, as I'm not I'll leave it up to you. I would advise you to read some of the Baha'i tablets, but I guess you know them all by heart.
Good luck with it
Dud (the Demon).

cire perdue

We are human, some us handle things differently, it's kind of like the kid under stress that after years of tolerating an ignorant friend goes off in extremis to a teasing by that friend, and his other peers pull him off, saying, "You've know the dummy all his life and accepted him before." Also pointing out discourtesy seems more discourteous than the original lack of manners. As a demon you ought to expect prickly reactions. I believe you have tested the waters with prickles, can we help it if you got prickles back? Who are you looking at? Baha'is look both ways, in and out.

Dud the Demon

LordofGoblins said:-

"Im all ears... How many posts have you shed on this forum before you are elluding to some baggage of issues you have perhaps against he faith or against Bahai understanding or Bahai insitutions which mind you you cannot even abbreviate properly."

You are telling me about an incorrect abbreviation I used (IHJ instead of UHJ).
My mistake, I didn't know the Baha'i claimed justice for the whole Universe, I thought the religion was merely confined to all of humanity. So I thought it would be the International House of Justice.
Can you tell me where the authority to preach to the whole Universe comes from?

Also in that one sentence of yours above, you have made several spelling mistakes. Does the Baha'i religion encourage you to point out the mote in your brother's eye, yet ignore the log in your own eye?
If the answer is "Yes", I feel I'd be happier being a christian.
If the answer is "No", I feel I'd be happier being preached to by a better Baha'i.

Dud (the demon)

cire perdue

People of all religions have the right to be in error. One person does not a religion make or break.

If you dogs don't stop it, I'm gonna bring out the water hose.

Demon the Dud, we do get attacked here and at some point most Baha'is have been rebuked by someone of another religion. At times we get rebuked by fringe "Baha'is" that think that those of us who adhere to Baha'i teachings should accept those who want to live another lifestyle. It is hard to take the measure of someone's interest, and the poll is really hard to accept here. In fact I have had to overlook that to talk to you, because the poll is offensive and really cannot be answered by Baha'is. We can go back thousands of years to find factors for many current events. I think you have some sincere interest and some prickles like the rest of us. You are welcome here, but you must not think we have not been affected by the poll.

In THE COMPREHENSIVE DEEPENING PROGRAM by Daniel Jordan who died in 1981 he says that Baha'is should strive to be loveable in order not to frustrate the desire others will have to love each one of us. I believe that if you disturb me that the problem is within me, it is my reaction that I must deal with, because I am powerless over you. I cannot change you. No one has perfect control over themselves at all times. As a Baha'i I would be obligated to look to myself to see how I may have offended someone if that is the reaction I got.

Dud the Demon

cire perdue,
When I was registering, I didn't really understand the poll option. I thought I was being given the opportunity to ask 10 unrelated questions. Then during the process it dawned on me that I could only ask 1 question, but I was advised to give up to 10 short as possible answers for people to choose 1 or more of. I was in a hurry to register, so I just asked one (of many) questions that I had spent some time wondering about. I wanted the knowledge of what other people would think about it. It wasn't a deep thing. It was a spur of the moment thing. If it's caused offence, and caused people not to post on my thread, then that in itself has given me knowledge that I lacked previously. So thank you all for posting, or not posting; because by doing either you gave me knowledge about yourselves.

I thought about giving a prickly reply, I considered that I would gain more knowledge by so doing. If people feel stressed and under attack, they have a tendency to strike back; that way I feel one is more likely to get the truth than if you go very softly. Because I feel that if they take longer and think deeper before they reply, then they've got more time to mask the truth.

Can you tell me where the authority to preach to the whole Universe comes from?

Tks for yr input so far,
The dud Demon

cire perdue

The Universal House of Justice is an elected body, elected by members of other elected bodies. There is no campaigning or even discussion among members about selection. The balloting is secret. The House only governs Baha'is. As a Baha'i one thing I have never felt is that I was preached at.

I went to Israel on Pilgrimage in '05. I paid for my lodgings and nearly all meals. There were between 4-600 other Baha'is. We were bussed to all the sites in Haifa and Akka at least once. We were given maps and some minor information. We had a guide with an assistant for each bus group. There was not a single instance in which money was discussed. There was not so much as a prayer book for sale and no venue to sell anything to Baha'is by Baha'is. We were provided a Pilgrimage center that was 3 stories. The 3rd storey was a small auditorium, the 2nd storey was a kitchen and eating hall. We did not go into the actual kitchen, but there were refrigerators and microwaves and even storage boxes for us to place food etc. that we could purchase locally. We could fix meals for ourselves there. The basement had 2-3 small retiring rooms and bathrooms. There was always juice, coffee, and tea. During my stay there were oranges and lemons which were in season from orchards on Baha'i land that could not be sold due to tax laws.

It is my understanding that the members of the House must be self sustaining in order to serve. All of the Baha'is on Pilgrimage had tea with the members of the House. In the long hall of the Seat we were seated in rows and served tea by Baha'is who volunteer to live in Israel. When our refreshments were completed and remains taken we stood while the chairs were removed. Then the 9 members of the Universal House of Justice came down the stairs and greeted everyone of us personally with great love and humility. The only thing done to have us show respect was that we were standing when they greeted us, and that is linked to the Guardian, the great grandson of Baha'u'llah who was clever in the way he found to have Baha'is from all cultures show respect for his office.

It was one of the most moving moments of my life, yet until I got home and told someone I did not know it, until I realized there were tears running down my face. This is ancedotal and probably of little significance to others, but I was treated as family, as if I had always belonged, and would belong forever. This Faith has endured the betrayal by family members of its Prophet for 3-4 generations. It has survived the attempts of a least one member to take it over, and been backed by courts in its legal stance to enforce its own teachings within itself, but I still don't think of it as preaching to anyone who does not wish to listen. We expect no one to abide by our laws unless they embrace this Faith, and in my understanding that will remain so even if there is a Baha'i majority in the world.

armin

I personally refrained from participating in this thread cause I found your first post somewhat confusing with the 9/11 poll and the rest of the questions. Your last post however clarifies that perfectly.

Regarding Iran's supreme leader, I don't think what you mentioned holds any real significance. I was born in Iran and left as a teenager. Here's my understanding of the situation in Iran. I'm somewhat less certain about the true intentions of Khomeini, the revolution leader. But the current establishment in Iran is purely a propaganda machine. They're using religion as a means to control the minds of people and I can say roughly they've a good grip on about 10 to 30 percent if Iranians. To me it's no different from countries like North Korea or some other autocratic governments. Others invoke for example national issues to hold onto power and in Iran it's religion. The supreme leader, divine authority and the rest are just a mask to continue their grip on power.

9/11 like others have pointed out has many causes. The main cause in my opinion is peoples lack of understanding of religion and it's ultimate purpose. Religions goal is for us to know and love God first and foremost and secondly to eliminate human suffering and establishing a just world for mankind so that the first goal is possible to achieve for every single one of us. The perpetrators failed to realize this and that notions of spreading God's kingdom on earth through war and hostility is in complete contradiction with God's message of love.

I do think some US policies contributed to this end. The US like any other country has made mistakes in it's foreign policies. But similar to what Arthra has said, no single country is to be blamed. As long as each country acts like a single person with it's sole interests at heart rather than all countries working as a whole these things will continue to happen and each side will blame the other for the consequences.

I don't know if you're a seeker Dud or you're just looking for some answers on the issues you've brought up from a different perspective but your interest in human rights is commendable. If you are, please don't let anyone's approach discourage you. We all have our shortcomings and also what I believe is the truth and my representation of it may be far from the real truth. However we have the most extensive and authentic religious scriptures ... you're in the right place

Rani

Quote:
'It is my understanding that the members of the House must be self sustaining in order to serve.'

CP, By 'self-sustaining, I think you mean financially?

I was told one time, that the House of Justice decided for themselves a modest fixed yearly income, like around $25 000 perhaps. -Enough to meet their everyday needs and to have a little left over so that they are not in danger of poverty.

I think if they were required to be self-sustaining that would not be just, as it would mean that they were required to have significant wealth behind them before they started service. Even when we vote at a local level, we are instructed not to consider any material consideration. The members of the House of Justice serve in a full-time capacity, and are thereby unable to continue their normal occupation for the term of their service. Indeed this becomes their occupation for a time in a sense.

If they were required to have financial wealth this would also most probably disqualify men from very poor countries, or people who have lost wealth for other reasons, and this is not the way of our Faith, I don't believe.
We support travel teachers, and I think it is entirely proper that the members of this Institution are provided a stipend. They often serve in excess of 20 yrs.

Well, I could be wrong about this, but this is what I've been led to believe. (Humbly submitted).

Dud the Demon

cire perdue,
A most moving account of your visit with your governing body.
Thanks for sharing that with others.

Can you tell me how the name was arrived at?
Why Universal rather than International, for example?
Should one read anything into that choice.
Thanks again, for your help,
Demonic Dud.

Dud the Demon

Armin,
Thanks for your kind understanding of my initial faux pas and for your recent encouragement.
I believe I am a true seeker of true knowledge, so it's comforting to be told that I'm in the best place to attempt the fulfillment of my quest.
Thank you for addressing my initial queries,
All the best,
Dud

Dud the Demon

Rani,
Thanks for that information.
What you say sounds fair.
I would be interested to know for sure.
Dud

arthra

Dud has gotten some excellent replies I think.. He asked above what else do I do... Well there is life outside the internet..fortunately. I spent most of the day trying to chop fire wood and bust some concrete at my daughters cabin. So it was a uhh physical kind of workout..in some ways exhilarating to do.

But a good question was raised as to the name of the Universal House of Justice..and how this came about.

Sometime after Baha'u'llah was in the Most Great Prison which we know was Akka under the Ottoman Sultan He designated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas an institution called the House of Justice in English the actual word in the revealed text is in Arabic "Bait-ul-Adl". The Kitab-i-Aqdas "The Most Holy Book" is a book of the laws for the Baha'i dispensation which will last about a thousand years or more.

The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith Shoghi Effendi translated many of the important works of Baha'u'llah and His eldest Son Abdul-Baha from Persian and Arabic into English and so you have the English translation as the "Universal House of Justice". But even before Shoghi Effendi there was reference to the "Universal House of Justice".

Here are some examples:

Monogamy is universally recommended, etc. Questions not treated of are left to the civil law of each country, and to the decisions of the Bait-ul-Adl, or House of Justice, instituted by Baha'o'llah.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3)

Another example from the Writings of Abdul-Baha:

The substance is, that prior to the completion of a thousand years, no individual may presume to breathe a word. All must consider themselves to be of the order of subjects, submissive and obedient to the commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice. Should any deviate by so much as a needle's point from the decrees of the Universal House of Justice, or falter in his compliance therewith, then is he of the outcast and rejected.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 68)

For instance, the Universal House of Justice,[1] if it be established under the necessary conditions -- with members elected from all the people -- that House of Justice will be under the protection and the unerring guidance of God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 172)

Dud the Demon

When I was registering, I didn't really understand the poll option. I thought I was being given the opportunity to ask 10 unrelated questions.

Then during the process it dawned on me that I could only ask 1 question, but I was advised to give up to 10 short as possible answers, for people to choose 1 or more of.

I was in a hurry to register, so I just asked one (of many) questions that I had spent some time wondering about. I wanted the knowledge of what other people would think about it. It wasn't a deep thing. It was a spur of the moment thing.

I have been told that it's caused offence, and caused people not to post on my thread. I can't undo it far as I know, so it appears I'm stuck with it.

I would prefer people to post, because anything you post, however much I may dislike it, I want to see it. That's because it can only give me more knowledge about Baha'is and the Baha'i faith, which I feel is my most important purpose for posting on this forum in the first place.

Dud the Demon

Arthra,
I feel you're right about getting some good posts from others on this thread.
I thank all who have posted; whatever you said; I can only gain knowledge from reading it.

What you do away from here sounds like very good exercise.

Thanks for the information about the Universal House of Justice, which I found most enlightening.

Has it yet been revealed why no women are permitted to be elected to the governing body?

arthra

The explanation given:

"The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. (Selections from the writings of Abdu'l Baha (rev. ed) Haifa: Bahá'í World Center, 1982), p. 80)

Later the Master clarified that it was only the Universal House of Justice whose membership was confined to men. Abdu'l Baha wrote:

"According to the ordinances of the Faith of God, women are the equals of men in all rights save only that of membership on the Universal House of Justice, for, as hath been stated in the text of the Book, both the Head and the members of the House of Justice are men. However, in all other bodies, such as the Temple Construction Committee, the Teaching Committee, the Spiritual Assembly, and in charitable and scientific associations, women share equally in all rights with men. (from a newly translated tablet).

Shogi Effendi, in a letter written on his behalf to an individual believer, provided the following authoritative elaboration on this theme:

"As regards your question concerning the membership of the Universal House of Justice; there is a Tablet from 'Abdu'l Baha in which he definitely states that the membership of the Universal House of Justice is confined to men, and that the wisdom of it will be fully revealed and appreciated in the future. In the local, as well as the National Houses of Justice, however, women have the full right of membership. It is, therefore, only to the International House of Justice that they cannot be elected. . ." (28 July 1936)

Though at the present time, it may be difficult for the believers to appreciate the reason for the circumscription of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men, we call upon the friends to remain assured by the Master's promise that clarity of understanding will be achieved in due course. The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh will aid them and the institutions of His World Order to see the realization of every principle ordained by His unerring Pen, including the equality of men and women, as expounded in the Writings of the Cause.

The Universal House of Justice


For more read:

Women on the Universal House of Justice

That last part

"The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh..."

means to me that the Baha'is have what is called a Covenant.. which contains a "blueprint" of how they are to conduct their affairs and what institutions they are to have to build this order. An "Architect" has supplied instructions. Should the builder ignore them?

I know my father was a builder of actual buildings laid out by architects. Many times a builder may decide from their own point of view.. Oh yeah I can cut my costs by ignoring that feature or fixture in the plans. But here we're not talking about a physical building so much as the "structure" of the Cause of God.

We may not always understand why various "features" are designated .. Maybe we want to ignore say the requirements to consult with parents of an intended bride when we marry or ignore the Baha'i laws in some way but that doesn't change the "blue print".

There are groups and some individuals who maybe have their self styled "House of Justice" or maybe want to be identified as "Baha'is" when they set aside various provisions of the "blue print" of Baha'u'llah.. Well of course they can and do these things but for most Baha'is following the "blue print" is the priority.

Eftekhar Be Khoda

I think it's on both sides honestly.

There is a very real jihadist movement within Islam right now. Osama Laden didn't start it -- the first person in modern times was an egyptian in the 1940's who called for Jihad against the west because the west was decadent and currupt. I wish I could remember the name off the top of my head, but I'll have to look it up. Bin laden is more of a popularizer than a founder. But the crux of bin Ladens complaint is troops in the arabian penninsula, which I believe is a result of the first Gulf War against Saddam Hussein.

We are in the middle east, and we do meddle quite a bit. Partially because of arrogance, but mostly because of the oil and Israel.

spirit

To tell you the truth I didn't really understand the poll thing, as I'm new on this forum, and it makes no difference to me one way or another, I just did it for curiosity sake. It didn't deter me from responding to you at all!
I find your personality very straight forward and I like that. There is no guessing with you, its right out there lol.
When a seeker, I believe , you have to ask a zillion questions!
I've learned a lot just by reading the responses to your posts!
Although now...I have a question I never had before, to anyone who can answer it. I didn't know the UHJ only elected men? This is very strange to me! Does Baha'u'llah state this in his writings?

Yeshua

Here are my views:

The cause of the 9/11 tragedy was an obsessive form of religious idealism which subordinated human life to ideas. Allow me to explain why I believe this to be so.

I believe that the root cause of the 9/11 tragedy was a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam which has come about in the last two centuries, beginning with the Wahabi Movement in Arabia, further developments in the 1940s, and reaching a crescendo in the Islamist Awakening of the 70s, when a fundamentalist group of clergy spearheaded by a man called Ruhollah Khomeini came to power in Sh'ia Iran, which had repercussions for the wider Muslim world, since it made "political Islam" - Islam not merely as a personal faith between yourself and God but as a political force for theocratic change in society - a very real and formidable alternative in countries were Islamic peoples felt themselves to be suppressed by secular dictators, often supported by Western nations. The result was a very violent, expansionist, intolerant, narrow-minded and xenophobic response to the faith of Muhammad which has infected the very marrow and backbone of the Ummah like a deadly disease.

That was the chief cause of the 9/11 tragedy.

It doesn't matter if you, Bin Laden, myself or anybody else thinks Western civilisation is "selfish" or "materialistic" in certain respects.

Religion cannot be spread with violence. No cause, no matter how noble and true in essence and goal, can be upheld through the slaughter of innocent lives.

An ideology no matter how noble a cause, can never be justified in practice, particularly when it supersedes the preservation of the common good and is implemented by means of force.

This belief was upheld by the Church Fathers who built and consolidated the Christian faith.

"It is a fundamental human right, a privilege of nature, that every man should worship according to his own convictions. One man’s religion neither harms nor helps another man. It is not the nature of religion to compel religion. Religion ought to be adopted voluntarily and not by force". (Tertullian, Church Father, Ad Scapulam 2)

"Religion being a matter of the will, it cannot be forced on anyone. In this matter it is better to employ words than blows. Of what use is cruelty? What has the rack to do with piety? Surely there is no connetion between truth and violence, between justice and cruelty… It is true that nothing is so important as religion, and one must defend it at any cost. It is true that it must be protected, but by dying for it, not by killing others, by long-suffering, not by violence, by faith, not by crime. If you attempt to defend religion with bloodshed and torture, what you do is not defense, but desecration and insult. For nothing is so intrinsically a matter of free will as religion. Religion is the one field in which freedom has pitched her tent, for religion is, first and foremost, a matter of free will, and no man can be forced under compulsion to adore what he has no will to adore. For if you try to defend religion with bloodshed, tortures and evil, it is not defended but becomes polluted and defiled" - Lactantius, early Christian author and Church Father (ca. 240 – ca. 320)


Modern Islam suffers from an obssesive idealism. Whereas the Meccan suras of the Qur'an and the many Sufi saints such as Rumi, Hafez and Sa'adi interpreted Islam in a way which upheld first and foremost the dignity of the human person before ideals, many modern Islamic movements - politicized by fundamentalist influences and hardened by a sense of injustice and poverty - are now placing ideals before the dignity of the human person.

Baha'u'llah, or at least my reading and understanding of his philosophy, warns against the rigid subservience to theoretical ideas – at the expense of the practical – which an obsessive form of idealism inevitably leads too. Jesus Christ also warned against this, and Muhammad appears to have done so as well when he said, Surah Maidah 5:32:

"...On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole of humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of humanity. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land..."

Muhammad was here quoting a teaching from the Jewish Oral Torah, a teaching which he obviously must have supported and upheld. And he said again, this time on his own authority and of his own volition:

"...Let there be no compulsion in religion..." (Quran 2:256)

Human beings, acording to this verse of the Qur'an and the preceding one, are not be accounted inferior to ideals but superior. Human life has no numeric value. It is inestimable, infinite. To claim to be fighting for a noble cause but to take innocent lives mercilessly in pursuit of that cause, is to contravene and nullify the supposed justice you claim to stand for.

The best example of this, for Westerners, is the Vietnam War. The Americans denigrated the Vietnamese people, innocents whom they allowed to die for absolutely nothing, as mere casualties of war, human fodder whose deaths were regrettable but wholly justified in the cause of democracy. In some severe cases the Vietnamese were purposefully murdered by the Americans because they were seen as supporting Communism, for example in the My Lai Massacre, in which 347–504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam were slaughtered in 1968 by the "Charlie" company, 1st battalion of the United States Army. These Americans had no trace or flowering of empathy; their coldness knew no bounds because they believed that the end would justify the means: They were fighting for democracy. They did not consider the fact that one of the women they killed could have been their mother, that a child they killed could have been their son, that an old man they killed could have been their grandfather. They were utterly incapable of putting themselves in other people’s shoes and had no respect whatsoever for the dignity and the right to life of their fellow human beings. To them, the idea of a free and democratic Vietnam was far more important than the human beings who were intended to enjoy this future of liberation.

These Americans represented a complex and "noble" evil which has reared its unholy head endlessly throughout the history of mankind, to the extent that it can be seen as a pandemic flaw in human nature itself, in my opinion. Some of the greatest men have killed and been killed fruitlessly for the sake and in the name of their ideals.

These Americans believed that the democratic end of their objective justified the violent means that were employed to bring it to fruition. The Catholic Church and other religious and pacifist groups, on the other hand, saw the brutal reality and ignorance of such an imperialist disregard for basic human rights. They understood the truth that people can never be viewed as being subordinate to ideas. Is not the ideal of a ‘national democracy’ supposed to guarantee freedom and safety for the Vietnamese? Yet how can anything be considered morally ‘just’ when it takes the lives of uncountable millions of the people it is supposedly ordained to protect?

It is this same obsessive idealism, in a religious rather than secular form in modern fundamentalist Islamism, which led to the 9/11 tragedy.

The 9/11 tragedy was caused by an obsessive form of religious idealism which subordinated human beings and human life to ideas.

And it is this obsessive religious/political idealism, which is the greatest enemy of mankind in this age of the world, the 21st century.

So I refused to tick any one of your boxes, Dude - and I say this with the utmost respect.

If you had added an option called, "Obsessive religious idealism" then I would have selected this.

cire perdue

America no longer has compulsory draft. I have heard stated over and over that it did not work. I believe a great deal of the protest of which I was part of prior to being a Baha'i was more about the draft than the war. Because once the war ended there was no more efforts to bring about change. That I think help consolidate my belief in this Faith, that the only change that matters is spritual growth. I did not know it, but my rebellion was a search for meaning that did not stop, whereas many others it appears did!

aidan

Dud I'm not sure what y mean when you say you have no religious beliefs.The fact that you are interesed in ths forum indicates to me that you have a spiritualityI know with certainty that God and Baha'u'llah have brought you here

armin

Regarding the UHJ and male only members this is what I have to say. Becoming a member of the UHJ does not in any way constitute superiority over others, male or female. They do not receive any physical benefits, income etc, and they have no tenure on power. They are elected and serving as a member is only another way of giving service. The individual member has no authority and their say on matters is as good as any other baha'i. It's the whole of the members and decisions made by them that gives them the authority.

The quotes are clear that we are not aware of the reason and that the reason will be known in time. I just don't want people to see this in the same light as let's say pope or Iran's supreme leader

Dud the Demon

Yeshua said

"The cause of the 9/11 tragedy was an obsessive form of religious idealism which subordinated human life to ideas."

Yeshua then went on to explain why she/he believed that to be so.

I found this explanation most enlightening. I would be interested in learning what other members made of it.

I sincerely believe that if all of this knowledge could be brought to the attention of many National leaders (for example Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Mammoud Ahmadinejad et al), then increased happiness of many, including those persecuted on account of their religious beliefs in those Nations, may well be the result.

Dud

Dud the Demon

Thank you Aidan. I envy you your certainty of understanding. I feel that you may be right. I hope/pray for such enlightenment myself.

Dud

Yeshua

Armin,

I agree with everything you have said about the government of Iran. It is a totalitarian regime that seems to care nothing for its people. It has oppressed Iranians for thirty years, has trodden on their freedom and has made a disgrace and mockery of pure religion. The leaders of Iran are not religious men. They are power-hungry men.

My prayers go out to the people of Iran - Baha'i, Muslim, Christian, Zoroastrian and all else. May God grant them peace and freedom of expression.

Yeshua

Dear Dud

Thank you for your kind words! I am glad you found my ideas enlightening.

You seem - to my eyes - to be a person who genuinly cares for humanity and has a keen insight into the needlessness of human suffering.

Nonetheless, is it not naive to believe that the Iranian government can change as long as the current leadership remains in tact? The Islamic Republic is not a true spiritual regime. It uses religion to hold its own people down. It denies them freedom of thought, belief, expression, clothing and tramples on their rights.

Recently, the Iranian government has orchestrated a massive bible-burning campaign that is deeply alarming to Christians. It has called Evangelical Christianity a "disease", that is trying to destroy the country - simply because Iranians are using their minds that God gave them and becoming Christians, or Baha'is or more moderate Muslims.

The Baha'i persecution is especially horrendous. The story of Mona, who was executed aged 16 around the start of the Revolution thirty years ago, is particularly heart-rending. Man's inhumanity to man.

Will such people ever change? We can always hope, but my reason tells me no. I pray that I am wrong, for the Iranian people and for the world's sake.

BTW I think it might be pertinent to tell you that I am a Roman Catholic. So we have something in common! (ie your ex wife and friend)

cire perdue

I don't think anything can be said to those people. I really don't. If they were the kind of people that could listen to that kind of explanation then they would not be doing what they are doing. I believe them to be inconstitutionally incapable of hearing what others may tell them if it is not in complete agreement with what they believe.

Yeshua

Sadly what you say is the Truth brother

Love in Christ

Dud the Demon

Can anybody out there enlightenment me about this matter?

I believe I have seen a video of a distressed woman claiming to be an Orthodox Baha'i woefully telling of her treatment by other (non Orthodox?) Baha'is.

Is it generally believed that such a dichotomy actually exists within the Baha'i faith?

If so, what are the differences between Orthodox Baha'i and non Orthodox Baha'i beliefs?

Also, what efforts are being made to unify those differences?

Hoping/Praying for any illumination (Divine or otherwise),

The Dud demon

cire perdue

Anyone claiming to be an orthodox Baha'i is usually in a very small group, but very visible at times if you go searching for them, groups that do not last. Baha'u'llah's children were covenant breakers who did not accept the role of Abdul'baha as Baha'u'llah's appointed successor. Tragically this also happened to Shoghi Effendi who except for the sister of Abdul'baha lost his entire familly to covenant breaking. Baha'u'llah was poisoned by His younger half-brother who was very cowardly, and accused Baha'u'llah of attempting to poison him.

If one is a Baha'i long enough one will find people who do not wish to live a Baha'i lifestyle or set themselves up as theologians and go against the directions of The Universal House of Justice. People who are too intellectual that do not develop a spiritual connection will have problems with authority. I have seen individuals in power struggles with LSA's but happen to know their family history and am pretty sure they are unconsciously fighting old battles from unresolved issues. Unity needs to be more important than getting "my way".

I have on occassion read the letters from these scholars and people and the tone tells me what the problem was for them. Another thing you may find in LIGHTS OF GUIDANCE is letters about individuals who are "so awful, so disrupting..." from an LSA, and the National Spiritual Assembly writes back and says, "You need to love this individual more...". We are expected to be incredibly tolerant and loving to the difficult and to look into ourselves to become the best people we can. Also as an individual I do not have the right to correct you e.g. if you are drinking. It is only the place of the elected bodies of this Faith to do that. We do not keep up with any but our own progress or lack thereof.

About the only place you can find much about these people are online. It does not enter into usual Baha'i events, activities, or lives. You can go years without any mention of it except for someone who sees them online. There have been numerous scholars who have based graduate degrees on Baha'is studies and history who find themselves in variance with the Universal House of Justice and have been dis-enrolled rather than considered covenant breakers. They get rather cheeky, one group wanted to be an advisory board to assist the House to <understand and use>inserted later> (interpret) the Writings. It is very painful to surrender what one may regard as their scholar's integrity to the guidance of that Institution. It means one must go beyond words and believe in spiritual processes that are beyond us. I think this is the hardest for intellectuals, though we all struggle with it.

cire perdue

There is a site that presents another Universal House of Justice and it's president is of the Davidic line which they seem to think is important, and it got to be funny to me. Baha'u'llah is the Davidic descendent. His geneology was well known.

One can work up controversy without looking at enough material. The only Westerner who met Baha'u'llah, E G Browne, made terrible judgements about the Writings of the Bab that it has taken 100 years to clear up with the publication of Nader Saiedi's GATE OF THE HEART where he addresses those erroneous assumptions very well. Saiedi explains that without reading almost all of the Bab's Writings for the context, many things will not be understood. Not that we stood around wringing our hands all this time. A contemporary scholar Dennis MacEoin was also refuted well by the book. Dennis is someone who was a Baha'i that is an academic who chose to differ. It happens.

Faith is not the result of knowledge, knowledge is the result of faith.