Napkin

Emillia,

As much as I love contrarians, I think you should apply more logic to it. Now you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

Fadl

Regarding 'tattooing" the face of a thief on the third offense, wouldn't it be better to just keep them in prison forever and throw away the key at the third offense? Oh, wait a minute, they already have laws like that in some US states. :-( If any of you have watched cable TV these days, life imprisonment might be too cruel for most types of offenses. Can you imagine being locked up for life with such deplorable programming as they have these days? I think I'd just go for the mark on my head. Oh my gosh, did I just say mark? Do you think this could be like the mark of the beast or something??! Yikes!!!

Emilia

I had no idea presenting evidence that might demonstrate your assertion is incorrect constituted being a "contrarian" and not applying logic.

Your lack of response to address the evidence presented is noted.

LordOfGoblins

nice..

LordOfGoblins

many people seem to live in the oldschool mentality that someone is either good or bad instead of shades of Grey. It wouldnt suprise me if people to interprtet it as the mark of the beast..
still living in an immature age..

bloomschool

Back to my original thought when I posted this. How come God could not prevent these religions followers from going astray since there were no last will and testaments except for starting with the Bab?

Example: Islam. Upon Muhammad's death there was controversy over successor ship. And a struggle for power. Evidence..2 sects- Sunnis and Shias. God is not all powerful and his religion and Messengers not perfect?

armin

You are seeing everything from the eyes of this world. Keep in mind that all religions have put all the emphasis on the next world in which we will live eternally! Had God not left the affairs of religion after He vindicated His revelation and proofs through His Messengers it would have meant that He has taken the freedom of choice and individual will out of our hands. The purpose of this world is to sift true believers from the rest. It would be contrary to the purpose of the creation of this world to prevent the wicked doers from exercising their will.

Put into a simple logical form as you have:

1. This world is of no value in His sight
2. All that He deems worthy in this world is the heart of a true believer
3. He is exalted beyond the praise and all that His creatures can offer, thus whether His kingdom here on earth stays on the right path or goes astray does not affect Him in anyway

bloomschool

Were not the Messengers smart enough to realize without clear instructions the faith would be corrupted?

The purpose of this world is for the true believers to be sifted out from unbelievers? Why? Sounds like a game. Where is the logical proof of that fact and what would it prove and what benefit would it have?

Fadl

This idea is built on the assumption that the corruption/decay of the religion they brought is somehow a bad thing. I would like to question the truthfulness of this assumption.

What evidence do you have that the natural decay and renewal process of religion is actually a bad thing?

Anis

Hi Bloomschool, I have followed this thread and I see a pattern of continuous doubt that not only suggest you have questions regarding the legitimacy of the Manifestation, but have also continued to ignore previous post that have done more than just answer your question. I bare no malice in particular, and perhaps you were not intending to portray yourself this way.

But I also see another pattern. A will to consultation. That your coming here was and is by design, an act of wisdom. And all is well in seeking wisdom from others.

Nonetheless, your dilemma has been answered over a hundred years ago, and with a little reading, this could have been resolved by seeking wisdom within thyself

1. Order implies that an object or thing be arranged or re-arranged, the end result is realised and planned right from the beginning. Within this duration, from disorder to reorder, there is always a pattern and criteria that must be followed.

But if one slices a single instance and isolates a single event, the ordered pattern is invisible and he sees chaos; observe how the river is flowing, little did he know that this is the order of climate oscillation!

2. This section involves some profound concepts. In summary: the universal principle is Oneness. All are made from the same dust; all are fixed to this design. Creation is powerless; the Creator is All-powerful. The spirit of life is transient; the essence of the soul is eternal. All these praises to Him are uttered in the phrase, 'all things are of God'.

3. Given all that's been said, we cannot, nor is it within our capacity as creation, to fully comprehend the nature and essence of the Unknowing, the Most Powerful. How is it then, that one can suddenly deduce that the atrocities of history could have been avoided, when the capacity of the Blessed Philosopher has long since far-gone human comprehension? Thus it is made known to us, as evident in the writings and as clear in the actions of the martyrs, that unity has always, and will ever be the true goal of the Faith.

--------------------------------

The writings accommodate for all, now matter how subtle it may be. There are indeed will and testaments, some have seen it, some have not. But likewise, this is no simple matter.

Look at the shear atrocities throughout history, imagine what would have happened if the Blessed Philosopher penned or misprinted a single error. Alter slightly a single sound in the Writings, and the order of faith is no longer perfect.

If one argues that the faith is deemed imperfect right from the point of infliction, then I humbly present this thought: say it is written in the Kitab-i-Aqdas the precise name and birth-line of the next coming of Baha. Surely, those who oppose him will rid and assassinate this line. Say it is then written the name of those who oppose him. Surely those who protect him will kill these opposers! Where is the logic in this?

The prophecies are presented in ways that can only be seen by those veil-less eyes, and rational, peaceful souls. Speak to Him and he may grant you wisdom in turn. Or turn from Him and seek wisdom in thyself.

I talk a lot, thanks for reading

Xue

Hello Ahanu,

My reply is certainly coming a long time after yours. Sorry about that, but I have been thinking about your question over that period of time. Your question is so fundamental that it takes plenty of thought and may not even be answerable. The best I could do is to simply start understanding what the question itself might mean. One of the greatest issues I grapple with in religion is the divergence between the image of religion which probably exists primarily in our minds, and the actual honest lived experience. Isn't a spiritual connection with God supposed to be the answer, in the most general sense, to the world's problems? We are told that God guides us towards love and justice and fairness, yet the lived experience of religion shows otherwise. Baha'u'llah, in a striking passage which I do not have access to at the moment states very transparently the destructive power of religious motivated violence, that its fury is unquenchable. If I remember correctly He specifies the unstopableness of such a phenomenon. Such a reality raises significant questions in particular to the theory of spirituality and what a connection to God brings to our lives.

There are other less vivid examples which can be found in the Bahai Community. Cases of domination over and manipulation of other believers even if it just in the manner of controlling the direction of a discussion or not allowing others to speak by using up most of the speaking time oneself. In non-religious contexts one could simply say that that person is not godly or spiritually developed, but in religious contexts one can not use that argument. In fact the problem becomes compounded, you can have a very committed believer who is spiritually developed in the very short comings they are displaying.

The only answer I came to was that spiritual development does not translate to or have any correspondence to behaviour. Beliefs are largely independent, purely mental objects. In this sense spirituality is an abstract thing. I suppose they can initiate action in certain cases but I am not sure how exactly that comes about. And of course they can initiate the absolute opposite of what they are supposed to as Baha u llah has said. The whole issue needs a lot more thought.

Iconodule

Interesting that you consider Christianity the most violent out of the three. No doubt a product of a liberally indoctrinated teaching of that of islamists and those born islamic or bahai. Consider the history of islam and its constant struggle and invasions of other lands from the time of Muhammad to the current day. Or did the Byzantines simply convert to Islam out of love for it?