bloomschool

Hello everyone. I need some help.

I seriously question my belief in the Faith. And have been re-examining the Baha'i Faith. And 3 questions arise for me that I need to have answered please.

I am wondering, firstly, why the other worlds religion founders did not leave written wills to prevent their followers from going astray. If God is all knowing and His Messengers are truly "messengers from God" then why wasn't this "small detail" taken care of? Finally, did God get it right with the Baha'i Faith and have a written will and testament so that the followers would know who to turn to for guidance and the continuity of the religion? Why did God wait until the Baha'i revelation to institute the will and testament?

Secondly, the virgin birth of Christ...We as Baha'is believe in the virgin birth. Shoghi Effendi, states that we believe as the Catholics do in this matter. Then, Abdu'l Baha, in some answered questions explains the virgin birth of Jesus, that it is not such a big deal ( I am simplifying) and the greatness of Christ of course is due to His teachings. Well, if the virgin birth is not such a big deal, then why have it? Why create Christ this way if it really doesn't have that much meaning, what is the purpose of it?

Finally, if we examine the world's religions, I am sorry to say, that they are quite violent. Especially the big 3 religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Christianity being perhaps the most violent of the three. One needs only to study some history to see how many people have been killed in the name of God. If these religions were truly from God, then, why didn't the the spiritual teachings of these faiths transform the people into spiritual creatures?

I would appreciate anyone's answers or thoughts to these questions which perplex me to no end.

Thanks!

arthra

bloomschool

Hello everyone. I need some help.

I seriously question my belief in the Faith. And have been re-examining the Baha'i Faith. And 3 questions arise for me that I need to have answered please.

I am wondering, firstly, why the other worlds religion founders did not leave written wills to prevent their followers from going astray. If God is all knowing and His Messengers are truly "messengers from God" then why wasn't this "small detail" taken care of? Finally, did God get it right with the Baha'i Faith and have a written will and testament so that the followers would know who to turn to for guidance and the continuity of the religion? Why did God wait until the Baha'i revelation to institute the will and testament?

My own take on this... The followers of Christ, Muhammad were not ready to accept a written Will and Testament.. Christ didn't leave one and they forbade Muhammad from writing His Will if you'll recall. The closest you'd come in the Gospel was where Jessu promised His Return as the Comforter which was misunderstood.

Secondly, the virgin birth of Christ...We as Baha'is believe in the virgin birth. Shoghi Effendi, states that we believe as the Catholics do in this matter. Then, Abdu'l Baha, in some answered questions explains the virgin birth of Jesus, that it is not such a big deal ( I am simplifying) and the greatness of Christ of course is due to His teachings. Well, if the virgin birth is not such a big deal, then why have it? Why create Christ this way if it really doesn't have that much meaning, what is the purpose of it?

The Virgin Birth was (1) a sign for those who would recognize Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecy and (2) it was a test for those who knew Mary such as her husband Joseph believing that she (Mary) knew a man out of wedlock. Mary was without sin and the birth of Jesus was miraculous.. by itself alone however as Abdul-Baha pointed out it was less miraculous that the creation of Adam who had neither father or mother.

Finally, if we examine the world's religions, I am sorry to say, that they are quite violent. Especially the big 3 religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Christianity being perhaps the most violent of the three. One needs only to study some history to see how many people have been killed in the name of God. If these religions were truly from God, then, why didn't the the spiritual teachings of these faiths transform the people into spiritual creatures?

They (the earlier revelations) did transform the people! But you also need to understand the depths and circumstances of the times they were revealed!

I would appreciate anyone's answers or thoughts to these questions which perplex me to no end.

Thanks and no problemo!

Xue

The question about religiously created violence has also occupied me quite a lot. And that includes violence on many different levels, such as manipulation, and deception, and the hiding of facts. Saying that infact religious people have been transformed, to me, just makes the problem worse because it acts as a form of denial and trivialization. One place I have tentatively come to settle on the issue is that spiritual development and one's actions, or virtuousness, are not really connected. Of course there are going to be places where they are connected but only on an isolated level. In other words there is nowhere nearly the directness of connection between the two which many religious people will commonly profess. I suspect some people will get very defensive about that, however, I do not think that this should come as a surprise. Why would we assume that, knowing the complexity of human reality, our spiritual existence would be simple.

To give some down to earth examples which are nevertheless still quite important, consider the Baha'i father who is pioneering in a distant country constantly "serving God" but who has neglected his own family in turn. Or the Baha'i who helps out at a homeless kitchen only because they are inspired by God, but then when they drive places they speak on their cell phone endangering pedestrians and other drivers of all walks of life.

I think that there is an intellectual link--an idea not often discussed in the context of spirituality--between spiritual development and virtuousness. Of course even that is complex as intellectualism can make things better and also worse. For instance, the Baha'i community focuses a lot of energy on racism, sexism, and prejudice, but with all that effort very little is mentioned about ageism and ableism, actually none from my own experience. Without the intellect to connect principles to larger issues, no matter one's spiritual development, those issues will very unlikely be addressed, they may even be actively rejected.

Iconodule

Christianity the most violent? In terms of the persecuted it has generated for itself, the martyrs that are still being made today, yes it is the most violent. But Islam far exceeds the cruelty and bloodshed of any crusader. in following the very footsteps of muhammad and its aggressive campaign Jihad to conquer the world and make it muslim (btw if that would happen you would be all killed and murdered as Bahais) they are by in large the biggest perpertraters of that sort of sin.

Theres a reason why in the west Liberal republic democracy came through, and its not because of atheism or islam. Christians never had a perfect history, don't get me wrong, Christians are sinners as are every people including the bahai.

bloomschool

Thanks for the replies. Regarding the will and testament...if God is all powerful then surely these Messengers could have left a will. But they didn't. Perhaps because they were human too and subject to the same physical laws and realities as other humans? Or perhaps their followers were illiterate and could not read a will? Or perhaps because we have free will and freedom of choice the followers veered off course? I don't know, but if God is all knowing all powerful then why couldn't all the violence be prevented or a way found to keep the believers on track?

Regarding the virgin birth and the bible prophecies... The bible is woefully inaccurate as it has been written by whom? No one really knows, plus problems with forgery in the bible and other issues that bible scholars are aware of makes the bible not a reliable source to believe in these prophecies.

And if Adam had neither father nor mother then what is the point of a virgin birth if it is not so important. And who would have believed it anyway in Jesus lifetime. I would imagine people would have scoffed at the idea.

I find it difficult to understand that Bahais believe in the virgin birth considering how reasonable and sane the Baha'i teachings are. Not to mention our concept of the harmony of science and religion.

Still looking for insight and appreciate all your help and thoughts.

Zhang

It is so true, that so many lives have been lost, some much of our humanity, sacrificed, so much of our intelligence, repressed, in the name of religion.

But I urge to reconsider the cruelties of the past, those who fought in the name of religion, those who continue to corrupt the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (phub) in order to gain control over their society.

I hope you will entertain this thought experiment:

Each human is the product of his or her own experiences. We are all born into a varying degree of trouble, some much less than others, some much more. The most violent of offenders were deeply troubled in their past.

I HATE using Hitler as an example, it seems so cliché, but I would like to share with you an exerpt from his Wikipedia page, which refers to a passage in his writings.

Nobody likes Hitler, but there was a time in his life when he was an innocent, fun loving child. Does any child deserve such abuse? He is the product of his expiriences, it is a terrible shame that he turned out the way he did. He wasn't an idiot, can you imagine what he could have accomplished had he been raised in love and warmth?

You see, fighting in the "name of" religion does not always mean fighting "for" religion. I urge you to find a case in which the transgressor was not a greedy, corrupt, or racist individual. Even when it does, you will often find that religion is seen less as a cure for the human condition, and more as a tool through which to control humans. Such individuals continue to remain prevalent in our society, not because their religion drives them, but because they are devoted by their passions they will use whatever means necessary to achieve their goals.

Religion is a deep part of every believing human being, is it so hard to believe someone would take advantage of that?

We used to be nothing more than animals, our lives driven by impulse: hunt, eat, reproduce, sleep -- repeat. It is my feeling that, accross the board, religion has set out to bring us above our more primitive impulses, though countless fall astray, God is ever merciful.

It is easy to look on the men of the past, and comment on their savagery and brutality. On their absolute disregard for human life. But we forget that we are educated individuals, living in a post-modern society, who use reason and intellect to guide us in our decision making. However, in the early 1900s alone, the average IQ border lined what we now consider as mental-retardation. Look at us now! The average IQ continues to climb steady with each successive generation. The human race is reaching a point in which, for some, they feel they do not need any religion to guide them. This is fine, but I continue to see COUNTLESS lives changed for the better, drug dealers to family men, killers to lovers, racists to humanists.

The crazies are just the ones that make the headlines. If it bleeds, it leads.

Check out NewMuslimCool.com, watch the trailer on the homepage, it's so inspiring.

I look forward to your response,

Peace
-张

Pete in Panama

Questions are good, please tell me more about them because they're hard to follow. It vaguely sounds like you're saying no-will + virgin-birth + violent-believers = No God, but that somehow doesn't sound like the whole story. Please share more of your thoughts.

InvestigateTruth

Even if they did leave a Will, then what would happen eventually?
Let's say after the 11th Imam of Islam, then who would be the infallible Leader of Islam?
Then all the world of Islam had to get together to vote to select their leaders, just like Baha'i faith. But how could those people at that time get together from all around the world without Airplane? even if there was airplane, those people of that age were not advance enough to be able to impliment the Baha'i Administratives. So, maybe the outcome would be even worst, than leaving a written Will after Muhammad?
So, In my opinion, the people of that age were not ready to have it right, and God revealed to them a religion that is sutible for that Age. Baha'i faith believes in progressive revelations.

arthra

bloomschool;33289]

Thanks for the replies.

Regarding the will and testament...if God is all powerful then surely these Messengers could have left a will. But they didn't. Perhaps because they were human too and subject to the same physical laws and realities as other humans? Or perhaps their followers were illiterate and could not read a will? Or perhaps because we have free will and freedom of choice the followers veered off course? I don't know, but if God is all knowing all powerful then why couldn't all the violence be prevented or a way found to keep the believers on track?

My view:

God is so All-Knowing and All Powerful He knows the frailty and developement of His creatures..and in this case when people were only simi literate in my view they simply were not ready for the Messenger of God to given them a Will and Testament.. in time, as humanity has matured we are now ready.

Regarding the virgin birth and the bible prophecies... The bible is woefully inaccurate as it has been written by whom? No one really knows, plus problems with forgery in the bible and other issues that bible scholars are aware of makes the bible not a reliable source to believe in these prophecies.

Both the Qur'an and the Bible are at one on the point of the Virgin Birth... Yes it's true prophecies have been misunderstood.. The spiritual signiifcance of the Virgin Birth is also generally overlooked in favor of the miraculous. It's also true that as Baha'is we don't have doctrinal or creedal requirements to be Baha'is.

And if Adam had neither father nor mother then what is the point of a virgin birth if it is not so important. And who would have believed it anyway in Jesus lifetime. I would imagine people would have scoffed at the idea.

People scoff all the time... again there is a spiritual significance to the story that should not be overlooked...

I find it difficult to understand that Bahais believe in the virgin birth considering how reasonable and sane the Baha'i teachings are. Not to mention our concept of the harmony of science and religion.

Again if you are a Baha'i your belief on this matter is your business.. Virgin Birth is not a requirement of a creed to be a Baha'i.

Still looking for insight and appreciate all your help and thoughts.

tonyfish58

bloomschool - There are quite a few answers above but I will try submit a thought as well - In the "Book Of the Covernant" there is this quote to baha'is. Link - The Book of the Covenant and that it is

"Say: O servants! Let not the means of order be made the cause of confusion and the instrument of union an occasion for discord. We fain would hope that the people of Baha may be guided by the bles sed words: 'Say: all things are of God.' all things are of God is like unto water for quenching the fire of hate and enmity which smouldereth within the hearts and breasts of men. By this single utterance contending peoples and kindreds will attain the light of true unity. Verily He speaketh the truth and leadeth the way. He is the All-Powerful, the Exalted, the Gracious".

Note that Baha'u'llah says "all things are of God"

So I look at it this way - God knows the capacity of Man and what is good for Him. Throughout the years God gives to Man only what He is capable of understanding at that particulsr time. History has shown us what happens if man does not understand what God is saying. All the good on this earth and all the bad on this earth will one day make us understand who we are, where we are going and how to get there.

The Covernant is a Powerful instrument that will enable this all to happen, in the past mankind was not ready and thus it was not revealled, we are now ready and by the power of the Covernant, mankind will be able to unite.

I have run out of time to ponder any more. I wish you well in life
and Faith

Regards Tony

ahanu

Xue, could you define what you mean by spiritual development?

You write:

Also, you write:

You seem to make a distinction between intellect, actions, and spiritual development, but after reading your post twice, I am left with a vague understanding of how you view spiritual development.

Sen McGlinn

Until the Bab, none of the founders of world religions left anything at all in writing.

Because of the enormous influence of the Torah, Quran and Bible, and of the scholars and divines who study them, we take it as natural today that Revelation and the Word come in writing. In antiquity, it was just as natural to assume that Real teaching was oral teaching, from the Rabbi / philosopher / prophet to people who came to him (or very rarely, to her) as students. Teaching wisdom was not a question of books, but of the master and his students. I think we have to thank mainly the Rabbis (pharisees) for the shift to book-centred religion, which led to the mysticism of numbers and letters, the idea that scripture study is a religious practice alongside prayer and fasting, the literacy of all boys as an ideal, and so forth.

Sometimes we forget that the religions prior to the Bab, are all religions of antiquity, of the classical world, or even earlier. The societies of those days and the people in them were really different in many ways

Iconodule

Bloom im going to say what I say to another bahai wannabee who denies the virgin birth. That is all manifestation it would seem after Christ Declare it as true. Bahai are divided it seems on what the manifesations exactly are, but one view seems to indicate that they are pre existent entiities or eternal partners along side of God. That if this view is correct they have seen the very birth of Christ, so when Muhammad and Ali Nuri say that he was born of a virgin and you say this is not a matter of doctrine that one must believe in bahai. Then it comes off as disconcerting, that you are wiser than the very people who reflect the perfect image of God? Are you a manifestation?

tonyfish58

Iconodule - What you posted above does not make much sense?

You are also answering the question imputing incorrect assumptions/interpretations re Baha'i writings on this subject.

The Question posted was "Secondly, the virgin birth of Christ...We as Baha'is believe in the virgin birth. Shoghi Effendi, states that we believe as the Catholics do in this matter. Then, Abdu'l Baha, in some answered questions explains the virgin birth of Jesus, that it is not such a big deal ( I am simplifying) and the greatness of Christ of course is due to His teachings. Well, if the virgin birth is not such a big deal, then why have it? Why create Christ this way if it really doesn't have that much meaning, what is the purpose of it?

It is correct as a Baha'i we support the virgin birth.

The passages referred to above are posted below

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha'i teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude) page 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Baha'u'llah confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also `Abdu'l-Baha in `Some Answered Questions', Chap. 12, page 73, explicitly states that Christ found existence through the spirit of God which statement necessarily implies, when reviewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."

"We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately. His brothers and sisters would have been born in the natural way and conceived naturally."

Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 40

Some Answered Questions - 18: THE GREATNESS OF CHRIST IS DUE TO HIS PERFECTIONS

"A great man is a great man, whether born of a human father or not. If being without a father is a virtue, Adam is greater and more excellent than all the Prophets and Messengers, for He had neither father nor mother. That which causes honor and greatness is the splendor and bounty of the divine perfections. The sun is born from substance and form, which can be compared to father and mother, and it is absolute perfection; but the darkness has neither substance nor form, neither father nor mother, and it is absolute imperfection. The substance of Adam’s physical life was earth, but the substance of Abraham was pure sperm; it is certain that the pure and chaste sperm is superior to earth.
Furthermore, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John, verses 12 and 13, it is said: “But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on His name:
“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
From these verses it is obvious that the being of a disciple also is not created by physical power, but by the spiritual reality. The honor and greatness of Christ is not due to the fact that He did not have a human father, but to His perfections, bounties and divine glory. If the greatness of Christ is His being fatherless, then Adam is greater than Christ, for He had neither father nor mother. It is said in the Old Testament, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Observe that it is said that Adam came into existence from the Spirit of life. Moreover, the expression which John uses in regard to the disciples proves that they also are from the Heavenly Father. Hence it is evident that the holy reality, meaning the real existence of every great man, comes from God and owes its being to the breath of the Holy Spirit.
The purport is that, if to be without a father is the greatest human glory, then Adam is greater than all, for He had neither father nor mother. Is it better for a man to be created from a living substance or from earth? Certainly it is better if he be created from a living substance. But Christ was born and came into existence from the Holy Spirit.
To conclude: the splendor and honor of the holy souls and the Divine Manifestations come from Their heavenly perfections, bounties and glory, and from nothing else".

Thus Abdul'baha talk shows me that He was trying to show mankind that the miracle aspect of Christs Birth was mainly a God Given Test for the people of the time. It was not the purpose of Christs Mission just an event that has deep spiritual significance and must be looked at as such. Abdul'baha was just showing us that we should not get hung up on this event and get on with what Christ intended for Mankind. That is to prepare ourselves for the promised day so we would not miss the spiritual revival of This day.

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

THe virgin birth is NOT important to making a manifestation of God.
In other words, a mans perfections are NOT dependant on whther they are born of a virgin or both human parents.
That depends on divine bounty.

The virgin birth IS important as a miricle of that revelation. It has signs and significances. For example Baha'u'llah relates that it was a test to the people recognising Jesus at the time, some suspecting that Mary slept around...

bloomschool

I appreciate all your responses and many thanks. It still doesn't make much spiritual or logical sense to me.

If miracles are not emphasized in the Baha'i faith then why would Jesus have a virgin birth? It is only a proof for those who witnessed it, which would only be Mary, Jesus mother.

And regarding a last will and testament, it is true that no messenger of God left one except in the Baha'i revelation.

Just having a hard time trying to understand these things.

InvestigateTruth

But the Baha'i Faith, does not say, the reason that Jesus was born without Father, is a Miracle to Proof.

What you should focus, is the Purpose of That Miracle.
What was the Purpose of that? It was not to proof to make it easy to believe, but on the countrary, to make it more difficault to believe!
The Purpose of God is not make everyone easily believe, but to make it hard, with tests. Thus, this way He created different people. Those who can pass the tests, and those who cannot.
Although God does wish that everyone eventually see Him. But not so easy. there are tests to prove.
To me that's like saying, how come when we were in the Womb of Mother, God did not give us eye and ear instantly. Why He waited until we are completed.
This is the meaning of Progressive revelation.
The Messengers of God talk in the level of understanding of people, not to the level of Their Own understanding.

bloomschool

This concept of test and difficulties in relation to discovering Gods message and recognizing his Messenger is something inherent in mans nature. Meaning that our tests are really overcoming our own inner "problems and shortcomings" as opposed to God making it difficult for us to recognize his messenger as in creating a virgin birth to test us to see if we believe. For example, if one of us is trying to explain math to someone or sell someone a car, do we make it hard for them or do we present the information in an easy to understand format so they can easily and clearly understand what we are saying? Of course we make it easy for them. Why would God want to test his creatures to see who believes or not? Everyone has the capacity to recognize the truth. Only our own inner problems, our lack of awareness, our pride in our knowledge, etc keeps us from recognizing the truth of something. I don't believe God is playing teacher with us and testing us to see if we recognize his messenge. He wants everyone to recognize his messenger.

Jak08

It is my understanding that the purpose of tests and trials for the Manifestation is to allow us to grow. My way of thinking is you can be handed an award for something, or you can strive and yearn for it pushing all other ambitions to the side. Which of the two is more meritorious, I would think the latter as it took more effort and the individual had a struggle that was a chance for growth.

I look at these tests not as a barrier but as an opportunity put forth by our loving God as a chance to grow stronger in our bond with Him. I suppose the main difference between our two views is where you see a paradoxical barrier, I see opportunity to grow stronger.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I see things as I can look at my past as nothing but terrible with addiction being a scourge on this planet of unholy origin. Or I can look at as I had lots of chances to choose and grow ultimately (IMO) making me a stronger person and a tremendous growth in my spiritual life. Granted not everyone comes around and has the same experiences I have nor me the same as others but I have to have faith that many of those wonderful souls are being looked after in a special way in the realm to come.

tonyfish58

Could it be that we are to beleive with no strings attached?

For instance, to me the revelation of Baha'u'llah has explanations that are totally logical and I see no reason why anybody can not see the truth they impart.

But the majority of the world goes on its way oblivious of the healing words. There are millions that are aware of these writings but still do not turn towards them?

Could it be it is not difficult to recognise the Manifestation if the Heart is indeed pure & detached from this world? This Hidden word could show why man is tested?

25. O YE SEEMING FAIR YET INWARDLY FOUL!
Ye are like clear but bitter water, which to outward seeming is crystal pure but of which, when tested by the divine Assayer, not a drop is accepted. Yea, the sun beam falls alike upon the dust and the mirror, yet differ they in reflection even as doth the star from the earth: nay, immeasurable is the difference!

Could it be the Truth has been given in just the right format that meets the need of mankind in the given age of the revelation?

55. O SON OF BEING!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants

and

Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: "Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" [Qur'án 29:2]
(Kitáb-i-Íqán, ¶8, pp. 8-9)

Link to a good site about tests & Difficulties - Dealing with Tests and Difficulties

Regards Tony

Emilia

On the issue of forgery, there are a couple of problems.

1. To my knowledge textual criticism doesn't much support the idea of forgery. Which Bible scholars do you refer to?

2. What Baha'u'llah said about the idea of the Bible being subjected to wholesale editing is to reject the idea. I believe the relevant passage is around page 86 in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

I thought Abdu'l-Baha'is point was not to extoll Adam for having no father nor mother, but rather to illustrate the greatness of Christ was due to His Station and the Gospel He taught.

(as a biological matter, it happens that if Mary had certain genetic anomalies it's actually possible to bear a male child via parthenogenesis. Theoretically...and that's highly highly improbable of course. So improbable no wonder it just gets called a "miracle.")

As a biological matter, it happens that if Mary had certain genetic anomalies it's actually possible to bear a male child via parthenogenesis. Theoretically...and that's highly highly improbable of course. So improbable no wonder it just gets called a "miracle."

I wish I could give you the details in a post, but some years ago an atheist and biologist explained to me how it was actually biologically possible...though "well nigh impossible" is also accurate. So apparently science doesn't rule it out entirely. Go figure. I wish I could remember the details, but it was decades ago, and I have little background in biology. As a chemistry student I wanted to avoid the pre-meds.

As for the point of a Virgin Birth, I'm sure most people at the time scoffed at the idea. People would now too, even though over a billion people believe it's possible as a matter of faith.

But what Prophet has appeared without any challenges to test one's faith? God doesn't seem to make it totally easy to recognize a Prophet. Perhaps that's His way of separating the sheep from the goats or whatever.

LOL here's where marrying into a Catholic family has it's advantages. Sometimes you just conclude "it's a mystery."

Emilia

Were wills even a "thing" back then in all those cultures?

In the modern age we have a predisposition to want things in writing and find things more credible if they are published or written down. But this is a cultural bias, and when studying history it pays to beware applying it to cultures that don't share such a modern bias.

In more oral cultures, this isn't so.

Jesus did "leave a will" of a sort: "Upon this Rock (a pun referring to Peter) I will build my Church."

Also, Moses appears to have "passed the torch" to Joshua:

Deut. 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

It's not like Prophets don't try to indicate who to pay heed to after their passing. Fallible humans just don't always pay so much heed to what the Prophet said about it is all.

Gautama Buddha may or may not have indicated a successor, depending on which sect of Buddhism you ask.

Rather like Islam had a schism over whether Muhammad had indeed said Imam Ali was the successor or whether Abu-Bakr was.

bloomschool

I guess my point is, if God is all powerful and then how come God could not stop the eventual corruption of the religion.

Jesus' teachings were immediately corrupted by the writers of the new testament who wrote it 30 to 60+ years after His death. The average age of life back then was about 30 years. Less than 4% lived to 50 and less than 2% lived to 70. So, more than likely the writers were not the original disciples of Jesus. One can read about this all over the internet and by legitimate bible scholars, as well.

So why did not God intervene and prevent this from happening?

And the virgin birth? There are numerous myths happening before Jesus that have a virgin birth, death then rising from the dead. It just sounds to beyond belief for me, considering that we Baha'is believe in the harmony of science and religion.

Just thinking out loud here. Thanks for listening and for your thoughts.

InvestigateTruth

Regarding the Purpose of Test, please see the following from Book of Certitude:

"Such things (Tests) take place only that the souls of men may develop and be delivered from the prison-cage of self and desire. Otherwise, that ideal King hath, throughout eternity, been in His Essence independent of the comprehension of all beings, and will continue, for ever, in His own Being to be exalted above the adoration of every soul. A single breeze of His affluence doth suffice to adorn all mankind with the robe of wealth; and one drop out of the ocean of His bountiful grace is enough to confer upon all beings the glory of everlasting life. But inasmuch as the divine Purpose hath decreed that the true should be known from the false, and the sun from the shadow, He hath, therefore, in every season sent down upon mankind the showers of tests from His realm of glory." Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude, p.17

InvestigateTruth

Baha'i Scriptures does not say, the Bible got corrupted, but says, the teachings of Jesus was misinterpreted gradually and does not give fruits anymore for this Age.
But there is nothing in Baha'i Scriptures that says "Jesus' teachings were immediately corrupted by the writers".

I am not sure where you got the idea.
Baha'i Scriptures reject the idea of a physical resurrection.

Please refer to Some Answered Questions, and Book of Certitude.

Fadl

Dear Bloomschool,

I think this line of reason is defective. I think all believers in God would agree that God is "all powerful", but more than this, God is also all-wise and all-knowing, among other things. In the question, why doesn't God stop corruption of his religion (if he is all-powerful) presupposes that such an intervention would be wise and beneficial, and it also seems to allude to a defective creation. In other words, the ordinary way that the universe operates is defective and needs God to stick his hand in to patch things up as it goes along since it wasn't made perfect to begin with. Maybe the Universe is like a Microsoft product, released to market with flaws while the service pack to fix it all will come much later. I don't, however, share this view and believe the universe is perfect.

The universe isn't perfect at accomplishing what I personally want, but at a higher level it accomplishes perfectly what God has intended of it. When we look at the universe itself, we see that stars are born and destroyed, and even whole galaxies can collide and black holes devour entire star systems. Why doesn't all powerful God intervene in it? On earth, entire species have been destroyed and become extinct, and in the world of men, whole nations have sacked other nations, and certain races have been enslaved or murdered whole sale. Why doesn't God intervene? Even if we consider evolution itself, we see that one species over time changes and modifies and begets other species. Why doesn't God intervene in this process? If God created all things, why does God not preserve his hand work and maintain its original perfect form? But when we consider that the universe is God's handiwork as well as the laws that govern creation, then such questions don't make much sense, since, apparently, the God who created the laws that shape and govern entropy, atrophy, birth and decay, apparently does not find fault in them since he created them. If God does not find fault in the nature he created, and part of that nature is life, death, change and evolution, then perhaps, since God is all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, etc. we should question why it is that we find so much fault in it. Could be that God has purpose behind all of this that is beyond our ken, and it could be that it is actually all as it should be and quite 'good.'

It seems to me that if evolution and change are the only true universal constants, then we should not be surprised to find this in the world of religion as well. Perhaps if God thinks it is fine and good that religion goes through permutations that are quite consistent the natural order of all other created things, then God does not see any wisdom or necessity in preventing its natural course, after all, he has created all things this way. If God intervened in the corruption and decay of religion, this would be a catastrophe of the highest order. The implications would be that, 1) God is a tinker who doesn't get things right the first time and 2) there really is no free will or progress, since God wouldn't permit us to ever err or change.



Cheers

armin

Because there are things that we can't see from our truly narrow perspective in comparison to the whole world and far beyond that to God's. God's proofs are His Chosen Ones and His holy books. Based on these proofs we the people are meant to find the truth, which is God. The religion as it pertains to earthly matters is a governing system for the betterment of human civilization. Now whether us humans choose to follow the path God has revealed to us or to choose the path that best pleases our own self desires, and goals, in no way does this mean that God is not Almighty. It's the defection on our part that leads to the corruption of religion and brings about all the other negative consequences ultimately.

God Himself is sanctified beyond the entire creation and all of His creatures. As Baha'u'llah says, and I'm paraphrasing, had earth and it's treasures been worth anything in His sight He would have certainly cleared the hands of men off of it. All that is deemed worthy in this world in His sight is the heart of a true believer!

Napkin

Allow me to drop the logic bomb on this thread

1) There are several sects of Baha'i. Google the phrase"sects of Bahai". or just visit Sects OF Bah's. Every sects claims to be the true Baha'i and tells you to avoid the other sects. That is the basic function of sects.

2) It is 2012.....do we not know where babies come from? come one! Mary, if she ever existed, had sex outside marriage and was in fear of being stoned to death, so she made it up.

3) All religions spawn violence. Baha'is support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the death penalty and the Bab was known for his sward slinging skills. They also believe if you steal three times, they should tattoo your forehead. In other words, your teenager shoplifts three times, they should tie him up and tattoo his face by force.

tonyfish58

Napkin these are incorrect statements you posted above

1) There is only one Baha'i Faith. There are a couple Covenant Breakers running around calling themselves this or that, but the Baha'i Faith is one and united. The Covenant Breakers will amount to nothing as they are cut off from the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

2) And your proof for this statement?

3) Do not know where you get your incorrect information from but Baha'i are 100% for peace, in fact war has been abolished. Link Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 21-29

O people of the earth!
The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted unto all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book.

It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.

In every country where any of this people reside, they must behave towards the government of that country with loyalty, honesty and truthfulness. This is that which hath been revealed at the behest of Him Who is the Ordainer, the Ancient of Days.

If you have questions please ask. We can point you to authoritative writings not the rubbish you will find elsewhere.

Regards Tony

Fadl

Either you forgot to light the fuse, or your "logic bomb" was a dud, my friend. ;-)

LordOfGoblins

where is the like button?

LordOfGoblins

1)
I can create a 'sect' of Bahai if I want but that exists only in my own mind because the covenant doesnt allow for division. THe proof of this is that these 'sects' dont endure and there numbers are not significant.

2)
so you dont beleive in miracles. Thats all you are admitting here...

3)
the tattoo on forhead is a law to prevent stealing. Often as men we judge the manifestaton of Gods laws using our own imperfect understanding. But in terms of harshness in the olden days they cut your hand off for steeling in some cultures so by comparison this isnt all that bad..

tonyfish58

Where did you get that from?

There is No such current Law in the Baha'i Faith that I am aware of.

If it was to be law it would be up to the Universal House of Justice in the future.

Any way it is a great idea, people have to learn to keep their paws off of what they do not own.

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief,
and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his
brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in
the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest,
through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the
statutes of the religion of God; do that which hath been
bidden you by Him Who is compassionate and
merciful. We school you with the rod of wisdom and
laws, like unto the father who educateth his son, and
this for naught but the protection of your own selves
and the elevation of your stations. By My life, were ye
to discover what We have desired for you in revealing
Our holy laws, ye would offer up your very souls for
this sacred, this mighty, and most exalted Faith.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 35)

Napkin

And there is no mention of age. If a 12 year old steals out of hunger, Baha'i writings say his forehead should be tattooed. This is not a current law but it is in the writings and we are reminded repeatedly that we must get our own independent answers directly from the writings. Mslims cut off your hands for stealing, Baha'is tattoo your face. Thank Gods neither one of those religions are in charge of US

Fadl

Tattooing the face of an innocent child, my heavens! What a terrible thing to do! I never knew the Aqdas mentioned tattoos anywhere, you must be the world's greatest Aqdas scholar. Please, where in the Aqdas does it say tattoo?

tonyfish58

Thanks for the quote LOG I could not remember reading that when I posted, now I see the quote it rings a bell, ahhhh an aging mind.

As Fadl has pointed out and to what I also refered, there is no such law binding on western society at this time. I note Napkin acknowledges that fact

"It would be up to Universal House of Justice to enact this law as they see fit in the future".

Napkin may not think so, but from what I see reflected in Australia when law abiding citizens get their belongings stolen, a mark on the forehead after 3 offenses would be getting off very lightly.

Apparently Napkin thinks people can keep on stealing without much penalty?

I think it is a great idea

P/S Who is to say that when they are rehabilitated, the mark could not then be removed?

Regards Tony

Emilia

Wow...a 3 strikes you're out sort of law? Oh, we already have those. The thing is well before you get to that point you'll be stuck in a prison so nice you'll fear bending over to pick up the soap.

Frankly, a mark seems more benign by comparison to our existing prison system.

Who knows when and if this law will be in force? That's up to the UHJ. By the time that happens it might be a far more healthy society where people are not desperate for the necessities of life.

Thought experiment: All members of the banking system involved in fraud and convicted of same would be given a mark.

Think we might have a repeat of what created a global recession if that were so?

Would they, as they are now, be keeping their jobs and even being rewarded for their lack of ethics?

Emilia

Yes, for example there is the "sect" of the Baha'i Faith known as the Reform Baha'i Faith. Membership numbers: 1. His name is Fred. I lived not far from the guy this is not theoretical from my standpoint.

Ooh wow a sect of one? I think you need to look at the numbers and the meaning of "sect" more closely.

If one person declared himself a sect of Christianity, I think people might rightly make remarks about tinfoil hats.

Ever heard of parthenogenesis? If Mary had specific genetic anomalies it is biologically for her to produce a male child without a father. Is this even remotely probably? Um...no. I believe that is why it is generally referred to as a "miracle".

Funny, I seem to have utterly missed that memo.

Perhaps you could point me to a source where the Baha'i Faith supports the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?

The Bab slung grassland?

Ok seriously, the Bab was not "known" for his sword swinging skills. War in self-defense was allowed by him, but hardly encouraged. The incidents are few indeed, if you actually know the history (which at the moment it appears you do not).

And Baha'u'llah (cf. "Baha'is") abrogated that law of the Bab's (cf. "Babis") so it's been a moot point for well over a century.

Hm, it's even the first Glad-Tidings. Must be pretty important to rate that treatment.

So...logic bomb? Seems to me it's more of an Information FAIL. GIGO.

But keep studying. It takes a while to learn enough on any subject so one doesn't inadvertently say things that are incorrect. Everyone has to start somewhere. *shrug*

Emilia

The notes for this passage may also be of use:

So basically there's zero support for Napkin's statement that this mark is to be applied to children who steal because they're hungry.

a. There is no mention of hunger (not that I've found)

b. The age of accountability is 15. Assuming things would be applied to a 12 year old as they would for an adult has no visible means of support.