tonyfish58

This is in addition to Pollwr's thread re Love.

I have been discussing the Fear of God with a friend often over the past couple of weeks and my friend stated that there are a lot of Baha'is that do not like the concept of the Fear of God.

To me it is a necessary part of Faith and as the Love of God is Important, I feel the Fear of God is as important. Love and Fear could be the wings of a Bird and both are needed to keep a stable flight.

I will start the post with this quote I read this morning, when you look for it you will find that the Fear of God is copious in the Baha'i writings and thus we should give it due consideration

(Extract)....."The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men".

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh CXXVI

Regards Tony

Essence of GOD

"The essence of wisdom is the fear of God, the dread of His scourge and punishment, and the apprehension of His justice and decree."

Bahaullah, ASL-I-KULLU’L-KHAYR (Words of Wisdom)

tonyfish58

Yes that is interesting

I found this link where someone has put a lot of quotes together

Compilation on the "Fear of God"

Regards Tony

tonyfish58

Hold fast to the fear of God and firmly adhere to what is right. Verily I say, the tongue is for mentioning what is good, defile it not with unseemly talk. God hath forgiven what is past. Henceforward everyone should utter that which is meet and seemly, and should refrain from slander, abuse and whatever causeth sadness in men. Lofty is the station of man! Not long ago this exalted Word streamed forth from the treasury of Our Pen of Glory: Great and blessed is this Day—the Day in which all that lay latent in man hath been and will be made manifest. Lofty is the station of man, were he to hold fast to righteousness and truth and to remain firm and steadfast in the Cause. In the eyes of the All-Merciful a true man appeareth even as a firmament; its sun and moon are his sight and hearing, and his shining and resplendent character its stars. His is the loftiest station, and his influence educateth the world of being.

KITÁB-I-‘AHD (Book of the Covenant) Page 219-220

tonyfish58

O ye My Aghsán, My Afnán and My Kindred! We exhort you to fear God, to perform praiseworthy deeds and to do that which is meet and seemly and serveth to exalt your station. Verily I say, fear of God is the greatest commander that can render the Cause of God victorious, and the hosts which best befit this commander have ever been and are an upright character and pure and goodly deeds.


KITÁB-I-‘AHD (Book of the Covenant) Page 222

Pollwr

I thought it would be interesting to look up fear in a dictionary because I associate the word with that fight or flight reaction and I don't think that is what is meant in these writings.

The Oxford dictionary gives, among other similar meanings:
Noun
archaic a mixed feeling of dread and reverence: the love and fear of God
Verb
archaic regard (God) with reverence and awe: he urged his listeners to fear God

Collins definitions pertaining to this are

Noun:
awe; reverence
Verb:
to revere; respect

tonyfish58

This is a good point you have made, I have found this on another site which is interesting and further explains that point

ChildCare Action Project (CAP): Christian Analysis of American Culture
ChildCare Action Project (CAP): Christian Analysis of American Culture



FEAR OF GOD



"Fear of God" ... one of the most misunderstood and misused expressions from the Bible. So many use it against the believers saying God demands that you be afraid of Him when it couldn't be further from the Truth. Looking at the definition of "fear", where "fear of God" appears in the KJV there are three translations to "fear."

yir'ah {yir-aw'}: respect, reverence, piety, revered
pachad {pakh'-ad}: terror, dread, object of dread
phobos {fob'-os}: reverence as in for one's husband (or wife)

When pachad is used it speaks to that which His enemies should feel such as in 2 Chronicles 20:29 "And the fear [pachad] of God was on all the kingdoms of those countries, when they had heard that the LORD fought against the enemies of Israel." They were afraid of the power of God for those who oppose Him.

But in other cases when yirah and phobos are used, it speaks to reverence, honor and respect such as in 2 Samuel 23:3 "The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear [yirah] of God", in 2 Corinthians 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear [phobos] of God" and in Ephesians. 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear [phobos] of God."

So, if one opposes and rejects God one should dread (pachad) fear what He will do (and won't do). If one loves Him one should revere, honor and respect (yirah or phobos) fear Him. Yirah or phobos fear Him even in the marriage sense as we, the believers, will be collected as His Bride at the Rapture.

I "fear" God. Deeply. But I am not afraid of Him.

Tom Carder
President
CAP Ministry


Cheers Tony

arthra

I was interested in reviewing some of the Writings on the fear of God and hell as well at a Baha'i center... but not many were interested.

I think it's associated too much with traditional theology in Christianity maybe...

But the concept of fear is relarted to being in awe of God...

All praise, O my God, be to Thee Who art the Source of all glory and majesty, of greatness and honor, of sovereignty and dominion, of loftiness and grace, of awe and power.

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 94)

Thou hast an eloquent tongue and a pure heart; thou art attracted to the Kingdom and wondering, in awe and astonishment, at the power and dominion of the Lord of Hosts

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 703)

Yeshua

Thomas a` Kempis (1380-1471) wrote: “There is no real liberty and true joy, save in the fear of God with a quiet conscience.”

I think that people often misunderstand the use of the phrase, "Fear of God" in the Bible and the Qur'an, which accounts for why many Baha'is would be averse to the idea.

Many consider it to be an antiquated vestige from a fading period in human history when mankind worshipped a big Judge in the heavens who threatened his servants with fire and brimstone

The Roman Catholic Church declares the "Fear" of God to be one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. In Islam it is a foundational belief along with the Love of God for daily Muslim prayers and practice.

The Book of Proverbs of course tells us that the "Fear of the Lord" is the beginning of wisdom. The Catholic Encyclopedia explains that this gift "fills us with a sovereign respect for God, and makes us dread, above all things, to offend Him."

Our only fear is that we should lose the Beloved of our soul through attachment to material things and desires. In this light, the fear of the Lord is the fear that we are not doing enough to thank our divine Beloved for his infinite grace. We desire to nurture a loving relationship with Him because in his Presence we have life and to be far from him is to experience true pain.

It isn't servile fear (ie the fear of getting reprimanded as in the case of a slave) but rather that of "filial" fear - the fear of offending someone that we love, of a sin against love itself, which stems from a heart that is completely self-surrendered to the Divine Will and could not bear to see or do anything contrary to God's Divine Providence.

Fear of God is thus a healthy buffer against "self-will", for as the ancient adage goes, "Nothing burns in hell but self-will".

Arthra is spot on when he says that the word “fear” also means “awe”. This is exactly the synonym of the word in biblical Greek. Fear of the Lord is thus awe in the presence of the living God that the Scripture talks about, not panic or stress. Charles Wesley (1707-1788) wrote: “On the day you come to fear the Lord, you shall receive your healing and the light and the glory of the Lord rising up in you.”

So the "fear" is expressed by Wesley as something positive that leads us to see the "glory" of God rising up like light from within us, dissipating all anxieties and bringing refreshment and peace to our souls.

LordOfGoblins

According to this. Yes we are apprehensive at his enormous power and ability to punish us and that is a sortof fear.
Like one might fear the ocean and its hidden dangers its power over the helpless sailor.

tonyfish58

Arthra - I agree this is a hard topic to discuss. I suppose the english meaning of Fear is maybe a bit blunt?

I like this concept about fear though

yir'ah {yir-aw'}: respect, reverence, piety, revered
pachad {pakh'-ad}: terror, dread, object of dread
phobos {fob'-os}: reverence as in for one's husband

If we use this concept and read the writings there are a lot of passages that could be better understood.

Like when one is admonished for breaking Gods Law, then "pachad {pakh'-ad}: terror, dread, object of dread" would be a just meaning of the Fear used in that passage.

Then for this Passage "The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men".

One could use this concept of Fear "respect, reverence, piety, revered"

Anyway it is an interesting concept.

However we think about it, IMHO we need a healthy Fear of God.

Regards Tony

Xue

It probably is a topic in need of some healthy re-consideration, and especially in the case of raising children and youth. Reflecting on my own upbringing in the Bahai community I can say I absorbed what one writer on this thread called the "blunt" English meaning of the word "fear". I did not just absorb the meaning but also the real emotion which the word signifies. I attribute this block-headed approach to the term as the cause of my real afraidness of God. An afraidness which repulsed me from God, as afraidness is meant to do. As for the question of love, even the idea of it had a logical ridiculousness to me in the context of being afraid. Now that I am older I can actually see this kind of instilling of afraidness into children as a kind of abuse not least because its not actually from the Writings but from Bahai leaders and other members who are interpreting the Writings and in turn using their own voices to instill their personal interpretation into the young.

Because of my own experience I found Tom Carder's post to be very poignant. "I "fear" God. Deeply. But I am not afraid of Him." It was this statement which inspired me to reflect on my own feelings.

I would add that such misunderstood interpretations of fear in the Bible which Carter also pointed out is also present in the Bahai community. I think "misunderstandings" is a very generous description though; I would be more inclined to say ignorant, and even manipulative. the problem seems to be based in an ignorance of language and historically informed understanding, and possibly even more so, a lack of finesse in interpretive skills. As I ventured through my university studies I came to learn how sophisticated and open minded the process of interpretation is; then I looked back on my experience of the Bahai community and I saw people reading the Texts and just absorbing the ideas directly into their minds and hearts with no intelligent process intermediating.

tonyfish58

Xue - I agree it is a subject to discuss or as you have said "healthy re-consideration". As the Fear of God is raised in the writings nearly as much as the Love Of God, we should come to terms as to what it implies.

The concept posted above of various meanings of Fear, allow us to meditate on a passage and attempt to put it in to context as to what the passage is imparting to us.

Regards Tony

LordOfGoblins

The only people "reconsidering" it are those who have no idea what it means in the first place...

tonyfish58

IMHO, Then that would be most of Mankind

From my reflections on the writings I would say that it would be impossible for a human to understand the full meaning of Love & Fear. Every human would have a different concept of what both are as well.

Here is a good reflection re Love from Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh CXLVI

It is Our wish and desire that every one of you may become a source of all goodness unto men, and an example of uprightness to mankind. Beware lest ye prefer yourselves above your neighbors. Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the Temple of God amongst men. He, in truth, hath offered up His life as a ransom for the redemption of the world. He, verily, is the All-Bountiful, the Gracious, the Most High. If any differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before your face, and overlook the faults of one another for My name’s sake and as a token of your love for My manifest and resplendent Cause. We love to see you at all times consorting in amity and concord within the paradise of My good-pleasure, and to inhale from your acts the fragrance of friendliness and unity, of loving-kindness and fellowship. Thus counselleth you the All-Knowing, the Faithful. We shall always be with you; if We inhale the perfume of your fellowship, Our heart will assuredly rejoice, for naught else can satisfy Us. To this beareth witness every man of true understanding.

Cheers Tony

Mdef

This is the foundation.

Good form my friend.

LordOfGoblins

why would you not fear God?
Its like saying not to fear a volcano or a storm. Would you not fear something that has power over everything?
Dont think God is just mercy and compassion he is also justice and wrath and created all harmful things as well as all pleasant things..

And this notion of nothing bad can come from God is nonsense...

LordOfGoblins

consider the same thing which Gives you life (water) can take it away (drowning)..

The same thing that gives you eccstacy (love) can give you the most grevious pain and loss..

Surely these are signs for people who bother to use insight? No??

LordOfGoblins

so why should we fear God?
Cos its common sense...
anyone with wisdom would fear God. That is why the essence of wisdom is fear of God.
Or at least explains why the two are related...

Pete in Panama

So is this (from Dennis Prager here):
The converse of that is that the essence of stupidity is saying fear is bad so people don't need god and (while we're at it) families don't need fathers. These are all basic tenets of the religion modern leftists are pushing (also from Prager at The Dogma-Based Ideology Of Leftism Reigns As The World's No. 1 Religion).

Fadl

Think of it this way. Assuming there is God, should God ever cease to will our existence, or cease to will existence itself, then it would be as if there had never been anything at all. There would be no refuge to flee, no this world, and no world to come. Now considering how bad some of us are to each other from time to time, that ought to make one feel a modicum of fear.

However, there is another layer and meaning of fear that is also important which is not the fear of scourge or punishment (which is very important too, see the quote from Baha above) but the fear of displeasing God, because we love him. This seems to me the healthiest type of fear. When we love a person, really love them, be it a parent, a spouse, a friend, the worst thing is to know that we have displeased them because we fear losing their love. Therefore, it is natural that when we really love God, that we fear being displeasing to him even more than we fear personal discomfort, misery, or annihilation.

If you think of it, it is our love for God, and His love for us that is our reason for being and our reason to continue being, and our preservation. Baha'u'llah revealed in the Hidden Words "I knew my love for thee, therefore I created thee." From this I infer that had he not loved me, He would not have created me, and, by logical extension, that if He did not perpetually renew that love for me, I could not continue to exist. So the way I see it, fear and love are tightly interwoven and mutually necessary conditions. One does not go without the other.

LordOfGoblins

good points..
for me though cos ive been tested like a miserable beast in this life far beyond any other Bahai that I know, and im not kidding. I no longer feel scared im going to sin and lose Gods love. Ive already spent years in iniquity trying to corect my behaviours and become a normal nice bahai but when you become ravaged with sickness and lose your ability to pray and be a 'consistant lover' of god, the ideal picture of a good bahai perhaps you develop the kind of fear that i have. That is terror of his power itself.. thats just my own experience in this life..

Noa

I think respect and love is what God wants us to feel -I am not really a fan off a fearfull God, I come from christianity with the 'you go to hell etc' if you not.... so I am pretty much allergic to that. I rather consider God pure Love, Respect and all positive aspects.... Fear, anger etc is too much woven into abusive and manipulative situations and I truly do not believe there's any of that in God.
There, however are consequenses. Like fire you can cook on but when you stick your hand in a flame you'll burn your hand. That is a law.
In earlier times people were emotionally and mentally, culturally not that evolved as many cultures are now and now in the Old Testamanet you read often about an angry and resentfull God - Who keeps warning don't do this, if you do that I have to punish you. (Like you say to a little child)
But in the New Testament Jesus shows that God is forgiving, and that humankind has gone unto a new road.

Josh

Thank God for the fact that..... "The greatness of His mercy surpasseth the fury of His wrath, and His grace encompasseth all who have been called into being and been clothed with the robe of life." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, pg 130)

light upon light

I used to hate the idea of the fear of God. God loves us, why should we fear God?!

I made decisions because I wanted things and I did not follow the teachings of God (and I knew I was making poor choices).

I ended up losing my faith for 18 years, and created a large number of problems for myself and for others in my life.

To me, fear of God is fear that we will make bad choices in violation of God's straight path, and create suffering and lose our opportunity to live a worthy life of purpose, love and service to Truth. We are here to make choices -- a healthy fear of making bad ones that take us away from God is a protection for us!