bwb

XXXVI. Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified....He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 85)


When for the second time the unmistakable signs of Israel's disintegration, abasement, subjection and annihilation had become apparent, then the sweet and holy breathings of the Spirit of God (Jesus) were shed across Jordan and the land of Galilee; the cloud of Divine pity overspread those skies, and rained down the copious waters of the spirit, and after those swelling showers that came from the most great Sea, the Holy Land put forth its perfume and blossomed with the knowledge of God. Then the solemn Gospel song rose up till it rang in the ears of those who dwell in the chambers of heaven, and at the touch of Jesus' breath the unmindful dead that lay in the graves of their ignorance lifted up their heads to receive eternal life. For the space of three years, that Luminary of perfections walked about the fields of Palestine and in the neighborhood of Jerusalem, leading all men into the dawn of redemption, teaching them how to acquire spiritual qualities and attributes well-pleasing to God. Had the people of Israel believed in that beauteous Countenance, they would have girded themselves to serve and obey Him heart and soul, and through the quickening fragrance of His Spirit they would have regained their lost vitality and gone on to new victories.

Alas, of what avail was it; they turned away and opposed Him. They rose up and tormented that Source of Divine knowledge, that Point where the Revelation had come down -- all except for a handful who, turning their faces toward God, were cleansed of the stain of this world and found their way to the heights of the placeless Realm. They inflicted every agony on that Wellspring of grace until it became impossible for Him to live in the towns, and still He lifted up the flag of salvation and solidly established the fundamentals of human righteousness, that essential basis of true civilization.

In the fifth chapter of Matthew beginning with the thirty-seventh verse He counsels: "Resist not evil and injury with its like; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." And further, from the forty-third verse: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and thou shalt not vex thine enemy with enmity.' But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth down the rain of His mercy on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?"

Many were the counsels of this kind that were uttered by that Dayspring of Divine wisdom, and souls who have become characterized with such attributes of holiness are the distilled essence of creation and the sources of true civilization.

Jesus, then, founded the sacred Law on a basis of moral character and complete spirituality, and for those who believed in Him He delineated a special way of life which constitutes the highest type of action on earth. And while those emblems of redemption were to outward seeming abandoned to the malevolence and persecution of their tormentors, in reality they had been delivered out of the hopeless darkness which encompassed the Jews and they shone forth in everlasting glory at the dawn of that new day.

That mighty Jewish nation toppled and crumbled away, but those few souls who sought shelter beneath the Messianic Tree transformed all human life. At that time the peoples of the world were utterly ignorant, fanatical and idolatrous. Only a small group of Jews professed belief in the oneness of God and they were wretched outcasts. These holy Christian souls now stood up to promulgate a Cause which was diametrically opposed and repugnant to the beliefs of the entire human race. The kings of four out of the world's five continents inexorably resolved to wipe out the followers of Christ, and nevertheless in the end most of them set about promoting the Faith of God with their whole hearts; all the nations of Europe, many of the peoples of Asia and Africa, and some of the inhabitants of the islands of the Pacific, were gathered into the shelter of the oneness of God.

Consider whether there exists anywhere in creation a principle mightier in every sense than religion, or whether any conceivable power is more pervasive than the various Divine Faiths, or whether any agency can bring about real love and fellowship and union among all peoples as can belief in an almighty and all-knowing God, or whether except for the laws of God there has been any evidence of an instrumentality for educating all mankind in every phase of righteousness.

Those qualities which the philosophers attained when they had reached the very heights of their wisdom, those noble human attributes which characterized them at the peak of their perfection, would be exemplified by the believers as soon as they accepted the Faith. Observe how those souls who drank the living waters of redemption at the gracious hands of Jesus, the Spirit of God, and came into the sheltering shade of the Gospel, attained to such a high plane of moral conduct that Galen, the celebrated physician, although not himself a Christian, in his summary of Plato's Republic extolled their actions. A literal translation of his words is as follows:

"The generality of mankind are unable to grasp a sequence of logical arguments. For this reason they stand in need of symbols and parables telling of rewards and punishments in the next world. A confirmatory evidence of this is that today we observe a people called Christians, who believe devoutly in rewards and punishments in a future state. This group show forth excellent actions, similar to the actions of an individual who is a true philosopher. For example, we all see with our own eyes that they have no fear of death, and their passion for justice and fair-dealing is so great that they should be considered true philosophers."
The station of a philosopher, in that age and in the mind of Galen, was superior to any other station in the world. Consider then how the enlightening and spiritualizing power of divine religions impels the believers to such heights of perfection that a philosopher like Galen, not himself a Christian, offers such testimony.

One demonstration of the excellent character of the Christians in those days was their dedication to charity and good works, and the fact that they founded hospitals and philanthropic institutions. For example, the first person to establish public clinics throughout the Roman Empire where the poor, the injured and the helpless received medical care, was the Emperor Constantine. This great king was the first Roman ruler to champion the Cause of Christ. He spared no efforts, dedicating his life to the promotion of the principles of the Gospel, and he solidly established the Roman government, which in reality had been nothing but a system of unrelieved oppression, on moderation and justice. His blessed name shines out across the dawn of history like the morning star, and his rank and fame among the world's noblest and most highly civilized is still on the tongues of Christians of all denominations.

What a firm foundation of excellent character was laid down in those days, thanks to the training of holy souls who arose to promote the teachings of the Gospel. How many primary schools, colleges, hospitals, were established, and institutions where fatherless and indigent children received their education. How many were the individuals who sacrificed their own personal advantages and "out of desire to please the Lord" devoted the days of their lives to teaching the masses.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 80)


Fifty years ago no one would touch the Christian Bible in Persia. Baha'u'llah came and asked, "Why?" They said, "It is not the Word of God." He said, "You must read it with understanding of its meanings, not as those who merely recite its words." Now Baha'is all over the East read the Bible and understand its spiritual teaching. Baha'u'llah spread the Cause of Christ and opened the book of the Christians and Jews. He removed the barriers of names. He proved that all the divine Prophets taught the same reality and that to deny One is to deny the Others, for all are in perfect oneness with God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 212)

Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: "Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, 'I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?'" Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: "Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?" These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.

It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: "Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee." Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins."[1] This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God's chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.
[1 Cf. Luke 5:18-26.]

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 132)

Therefore, know thou of a certainty that these Luminaries of heavenly majesty, though their dwelling be in the dust, yet their true habitation is the seat of glory in the realms above. Though bereft of all earthly possessions, yet they soar in the realms of immeasurable riches. And whilst sore tried in the grip of the enemy, they are seated on the right hand of power and celestial dominion. Amidst the darkness of their abasement there shineth upon them the light of unfading glory, and upon their helplessness are showered the tokens of an invincible sovereignty.
Thus Jesus, Son of Mary, whilst seated one day and speaking in the strain of the Holy Spirit, uttered words such as these: "O people! My food is the grass of the field, wherewith I satisfy my hunger. My bed is the dust, my lamp in the night the light of the moon, and my steed my own feet. Behold, who on earth is richer than I?" By the righteousness of God! Thousands of treasures circle round this poverty, and a myriad kingdoms of glory yearn for such abasement! Shouldst thou attain to a drop of the ocean of the inner meaning of these words, thou wouldst surely forsake the world and all that is therein, and, as the Phoenix wouldst consume thyself in the flames of the undying Fire.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 130)

"The Bible and the Gospels are most honored in the estimation of all Baha'is. One of the spiritual utterances of His Holiness Christ in his Sermon on the Mount is preferable to me to all the writings of the philosophers. It is the religious duty of every Baha'i to read and comprehend the meanings of the Old and New Testament."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 14, p. 55)

Orthodox

Its interesting that Bahu'a'llah blesses St Constantine. Does Bahu'a'llah likewise endorse the council Constantine convened and the decisions reached by that same council? Constantine certainly had faith in the bishops he called even if later he was more sympathetic towards arians wanting to join in the church again.

arthra

I think you mean Abdul-Baha.. and no we don't necessarily endorse Church Councils...

Here is what Abdul-Baha though said about Christian unity which may interest you.. You'll note again Constantine is mentioned:

"...all were gathered together under the same tent -- that is to say, the appearance of Christ brought about a union among these diverse nations, some of whom, under the influence of Christianity, became so united that they sacrificed their lives and property for one another. After the time of Constantine, who was the protagonist of Christianity, divisions broke out among them. The point is this, that Christ united these nations but after a while governments became the cause of discord. What I mean is that Christ sustained a Cause that all the kings of the earth could not establish! He united the various religions and modified ancient customs. Consider what great differences existed between Romans, Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Israelites and other peoples of Europe. Christ removed these differences and became the cause of love between these communities. Although after some time governments destroyed this union, the work of Christ was accomplished."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 10)

Orthodox

Actually there was little division, primarily the main division was between the Orthodox Catholic and oriental churches. Its interesting that he says that Christ united these people, yet they did not proclaim Bahai, the fathers of that same church Constantine ordered a council for taught the doctrines of the councils before it. THe Council merely officialised it.

BruceDLimber

It's a little tough to "proclaim" something that won't exist for another 1400 years!



Bruce

Orthodox

Not the point, the bahai doctrine of Jesus should have existed had it been true. The bahai doctrine of jesus came 2000 years later and was not known by the church.

LarryK32

The Messiah was supposed to be a descendant of King David. Was he?

Orthodox

Which he was, but I imagine you bringing up the virgin birth and saying he was not a legitimate descendant of David. Even if he was not of his father he was of his mother mary whose lineage is in Luke. And he was adopted and was the son of Joseph thus becoming a legitmant heir.

This doesn't answer the point. Why did the bahai doctrine of Jesus not exist until Bahai? Why? Did the desciples fail to teach that they never saw Jesus? It makes no sense.

arthra

Message to the London Bahá'ís for the

Day of 'Abdu'l-Bahá.

Specially given to Mrs. Enthoven.

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS!

The doors of the Kingdom of God are open!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! Armies of Angels are descending from Heaven!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! The Sun of Truth is rising!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! Heavenly food is being sent from above!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! The Trumpet is sounding!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! The Banner of the Great Peace is floating far and wide!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! The Light of the Lamp of the Oneness of Humanity is shining bright!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! The fire of the Love of God is blazing!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! The Holy Spirit is being outpoured!

GOOD NEWS! GOOD NEWS! For Everlasting Life is here!

O Ye that sleep, Awake!
O ye heedless ones, Learn wisdom!
O Blind, receive your sight! *127*
O Deaf, Hear!
O Dumb, Speak!
O Dead, Arise!

Be Happy!

Be Happy!

Be full of Joy!

This is the day of the Proclamation of the Bab! It is the Festival of the Forerunner of the Blessed Beauty (Bahá'u'lláh). It is the day of the dawning of the Morning of Guidance.

- From Abdul-Baha in London p. 126

tonyfish58

The bible talks about the coming of Baha'u'llah in the Old and New testament. Christ foretold of the coming of Baha'u'llah. Thus the message of Baha'u'llah is enshrined within the Holy Bible.

The fact that people may not have the capacity to receive such a great truth is why Christ said, that when the Father comes he will show it unto you.

I am sure you are aware of all these prophesies.

Cheers Tony

Orthodox

Tony it certaintly does not, the comforter could not have been Muhammad or Bahu'a''lah, it was the holy spirit.

arthra

The Baha'i view is that the "Comforter" referred to a Person. The following is a provisional translation of a commentary on verses of John:

Commentary on Verses of John
by Abdu'l-Bahá
Translated by Khazeh Fananapazir.
Edited by Mehdi Wolf.
Published in Makátib ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Volume 2, page 59
2001-04
Originally written as "Tafsír-i-Áyát-i-Yuhanná".

The Master quotes:[1]

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;[2] but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[3] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth,[4] is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”[5]

The concourse of the Gospel have presently fallen lost in the wilderness of error and purblindness and thus have considered as naught[6] these assertions of the Gospel which are explicitly clear and without allusiveness. This concourse of Christians have clung to interpretations based on their own imaginings.[7] Thus they say that the purpose of the above verses is the descent of the Holy Spirit, the descent that occurred after the ascension of His holiness Christ upon the disciples.[8] This is in truth the customary way of all peoples[9] and religious communities in that they close their eyes to the strong and firm meanings of the divine verses and then they adhere to suppositional[10] and dubious interpretations. Now you should consider how much their assertion is trivial and invalid:

Firstly. He sayeth: He shall not come unless I go away. This utterance indicates that He, the Spirit, the Comforter was not there at the time of Christ[11] and that He would come afterwards. But the Holy Spirit was inseparably and always co-existing with Christ.[12] So there would otherwise be no meaning to the saying: He shall not come unless I go away.

Secondly. He said: I have many things to explain to you but you do not posses the capacity to bear them; but that Sanctified Spirit of Truth will expound these things and lead you into all truth.

Now consider further: In accord with Christian Teaching, the Holy Spirit is the Third Hypostasis[13] and the Spirit Jesus Christ is the Second Hypostasis.[14],[15],[16] Could it be the case that after all the training imparted by the two Hypostases[17] the veils of ignorance and lack of knowledge were not torn asunder and the disciples were not confirmed with the full guidance of truth?[18] Were they then after the ascension of that Supreme Luminary receiving the hidden unseen mysteries and the concealed and sealed Lordly wisdoms from the Third Hypostasis? Did they then only become able to hear these truths? Rather it is obvious[19] that if under the shade of guidance of that Essence of Essences and the Spirit of Spirits and with all the confirmations of the Holy spirit if souls be not educated and trained, and, if the soul’s dark veils were still not burned away, then the breaths of the Holy spirit [alone] would have no effect for a hundred thousand years. And herein is manifest and recognizable truth.

Thus it has become clear and proven from those blessed Johannine verses that after the Beauty of Jesus another Honoured Soul and Great Beauty will appear Whose training will be even greater than the education imparted by Christ, the Spirit of God.

Thirdly He said: That Comforter will not speak from Himself. That means He shall be aided by the hosts of divine Revelation. He shall declare and expound all that reaches His Blessed Hearing from the Kingdom of Glory.

Consider again, how clear it is. This means that that Comforting Spirit is a Person[20] Who wilt be inspired with heavenly Inspirations and be the Repository of Lordly Revelations. Further, the Holy Spirit doth not have ears with which to hear.[21] The references that the disciples adduced as proof from the Torah with respect to the Advent of Christ were never with this degree of explicitness.
________________________________________

Notes
[1] From Makátib ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’ Vol. 2. [al-juz’ ath-tháni, page 59]. The title here given is provisionally added by the present editor. The commentary which follows is only a part of a longer Tablet. Date and recipient of this text are uncertain (KF’s note, modified by MW).

[2] See eg. Summons of the Lord of Hosts: Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, M15, H248 (MW’s note).

[3] Here, we see Christ as the ‘Sender of Messengers’ (MW’s note).

[4] Cf. Summons of the Lord of Hosts: Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, M15 (MW’s note).

[5] John 16:7-15 (KF’s note).

[6] Hích (KF’s note)

[7] ta’wilát-i-mawhúmih (KF’s note)

[8] i.e. the descent at Pentecost: “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts, 2:1-6) (MW’s note).

[9] Adat-i-kull-i-umam ast (KF’s note)

[10] wahmiyya (KF’s note)

[11] Rúh- i-tasalli-dahandih mawjúd nabúdih (KF’s note)

[12] Cf. Luke 4:18 (Quoting Isaiah 61:1); Qur’án 2:253; Summons of the Lord of Hosts: Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, H133. (MW’s note)

[13] uqnúm-i-thálith (KF’s note).

[14] Cf. I John 5:7: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (MW’s note).

[15] uqnúm-i-thání. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’ addresses the subject of the trinity as follows:
The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors-- one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit--that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality--that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes--became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied--for the Sun is one--but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. (Some Answered Questions, Chap. 27, pp. 113-5) (KF’s note, expanded by MW).


[16] See Qur’án 5:76: “They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.” (MW’s note).

[17] i.e. of Christ and the Holy Spirit (KF’s note).

[18] rushd va hidáyat-i-támmih (KF’s note).

[19] Wadhih ast (KF’s note).

[20] Shakhsí ast. Cf. Some Answered Questions, p. 109. (KF’s note, expanded by MW).

[21] sam’í nabúdih kih istimá’ namáyad (KF’s note).

bwb

That's good Arthra. What web site did you copy that from ('Abdu'l-Baha's commentary about the comforter)?

Orthodox

Mein Lord I will respond to that tommorow.

Orthodox

I Will start by agreeing with Abdul Baha that the verses are incredibly clear, not from the Bahai standpoint but from the Christian standpoint, and when we are done there will be no doubt that these verses refer to the Holy spirit blessed first person of the trinity. Also I will be commenting on other things briefly. Now, he asserts that the view of Christians is trivial and invalid, I want to make a note on this as it seems to be that Bahai must believe in some sort of doctrine and cannot be subjective this matter.

Firstly: Actually the Holy spirit was not there at the time of Christ, this much can be certain, the desciples did not have the Holy spirit during Christ’s ministry that much is clear from reading the exact same gospel.

Joh 7:39 But He said this concerning the Spirit, whom the ones believing into Him were about to receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So we know the Holy spirit was not with the disciples from this verse, and in the verse concerning Jesus’s promise of a comforter he was speaking to the apostles themselves. I see a connectiion between john 7:39 and the Pentecost scene.

Secondly: It is interesting to note who is Jesus speaking to in these verses? Who was the audience of whom he was speaking to. He was speaking to the apostles. Lets look at some verses establishing the comforter, whom he is.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The use and indicator of the word “you” means Jesus was speaking to a specific audeience a specific people, and we can safely assume it to be the apostles. Jesus was most certaintly speaking the apostles, thus promising the comforter to come to them, not 600 years later or 1900 years later.

Now consider further: Why yes the apostles did not receive the full revelation or have the Holy spirit at the time of Jesus’s ministry, that much is certain from John 7:39 which mentions that Jesus had not yet been glorified indicating that his glorification which I am able to grant his ressurection in the John Narrative as Jesus’s heavenly glory of a resurrected Body. So therefore it is obvious that the apostles did not have the Holy spirit at the time of Jesus’s ministry for they were with Jesus who taught them things and then were later illuminated by the spirit at Pentecost as the bible clearly demonstrates. They received a fore taste of this spirit at the end of John’s gospel as well.

Abdul’Baha’s arguments lack any sort of meaningful reading of scripture as a whole, I will go through some verses soon but from what I have read, he has reached an outlandish conclusion based on little reading of the gospel that only the simple minded would find convincing.

Thirdly: Jesus tells us the comforter will speak of things concerning Christ, not the Holy spirit. Muhammad and Baha’u’llah spoke of themselves as prophets and promoted themselves this is not in line with what Jesus says:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

These men did not merely rely on Jesus and the things he said but their own words, thus I feel it does not fall in line with this scripture. Also I would like to point out the most obvious verse Abdul has missed, “The comforter, which is the Holy spirit.” I think that’s all that needs to be said but there are other reasons so as to reject this belief of the comforter being a prophet.

Consider again, that the Holy spirit is a person and has the qualities of a person.

Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Acts 16:6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.

Only a person with a rationality and will can speak as well as forbid someone. And there are more verses which demonstrate the Holy spirit as a divine person, and Abdul’Bahas argument that since a spirit does not have ears and thus cannot hear, then this must be extended to the Father whom likewise does not have a physical body in which to have ears and thus cannot hear. This is just ludicrous.

I also consider the quotation at the beginning of his commentary, enough proof, as all these things were promised to the desciples, there is no indication that it was promised to anything else.


In conclusion I feel his explanation lacking, considering church fathers, scholars and others have written entire lectures on this topic and he hoped to settle it in such a small amount of words? I am disappointed as I expected somewhat more of a challenge.

arthra

Sorry I usually source things..It can be found at

Commentary on Verses of John

There are some other examples from the Writings:

In former dispensations the sick body of the world could not bear the strong and overpowering remedies. That is why His Highness the Christ said:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of the Comforter, who is sent by the Father, is come, He will guide you into all truth."

Therefore, in this age of lights, specific teachings have become universal, in order that the outpouring of the Merciful One environ both the East and the West, the oneness of the kingdom of humanity become visible and the luminosity of truth enlighten the world of consciousness. The descent of the New Jerusalem is the heavenly religion which secures the prosperity of the human world and is the effulgence of the illumination of the realm of God.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 380

and

The treatment ordered by wise physicians of the past, and by those that follow after, is not one and the same, rather doth it depend on what aileth the patient; and although the remedy may change, the aim is always to bring the patient back to health. In the dispensations gone before, the feeble body of the world could not withstand a rigorous or powerful cure. For this reason did Christ say:

'I have yet many things to say unto you, matters needing to be told, but ye cannot bear to hear them now. Howbeit when that Comforting Spirit, Whom the Father will send, shall come, He will make plain unto you the truth.'[1]

[1 cf. John 15:26; 16:12-13]

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 58

From the above commentary on the verses, Abdul-Baha it seems to me offers some interesting points:

Could it be the case that after all the training imparted by the two Hypostases[17] the veils of ignorance and lack of knowledge were not torn asunder and the disciples were not confirmed with the full guidance of truth?[18]

Were they then after the ascension of that Supreme Luminary receiving the hidden unseen mysteries and the concealed and sealed Lordly wisdoms from the Third Hypostasis? Did they then only become able to hear these truths?

Rather it is obvious[19] that if under the shade of guidance of that Essence of Essences and the Spirit of Spirits and with all the confirmations of the Holy spirit if souls be not educated and trained, and, if the soul’s dark veils were still not burned away, then the breaths of the Holy spirit [alone] would have no effect for a hundred thousand years. And herein is manifest and recognizable truth.

arthra

Now for Orthodox,

The verse is cited:


7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

(King James Bible, John)

If you'll note above there are prerentheses

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So apparently a scribe has added these words later..as a "clarification" of the earlier text..

The words of Jesus are in the present tense:

John 3:37

It was the last and most important day of the Feast. Jesus stood up and spoke in a loud voice. He said, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Does anyone believe in me? Then, just as Scripture says, streams of living water will flow from inside him."

Jesus is referring possibly to Isaiah

You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail.

Isaiah 58:11

But let's check and see if there are other references to the Spirit:

1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

(King James Bible, John)

3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

(King James Bible, John)

Another translation reads:

John 3:34 The One whom God has sent speaks God's words. God gives the Holy Spirit without limit


In Matthew we read:

4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

The following is part of a commission of the disciples while Jesus was alive and instructing them:

10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

(King James Bible, Matthew)

In the Gospel of Luke:

:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

(King James Bible, Luke)

11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

(King James Bible, Luke)

So I don't know it seems to me that the Gospels tell us the Holy Spirit was there during the life of Christ..

arthra

In any event the topic of this thread...

"Beautifully eloquent Baha'i quotations praising Jesus Christ"

is still viable..so let's see what I can find...?

All the prophets have striven to make love manifest in the hearts of men. His Holiness Jesus Christ sought to create this love in the hearts. He suffered all difficulties and ordeals that perchance the* human heart might become the fountain-source of love.

Therefore we must strive with all our heart and soul that this love may take possession of us so that all humanity whether it be in the east or in the west may be connected through the bond of this divine affection; for we are all the waves of one sea; we have come into being through the same bestowal and are recipients from the same center. The lights of earth are all acceptable, but the center of effulgence is the sun and we must direct our gaze to the sun. God is the supreme center. The more we turn toward this center of light, the greater will be our capacity.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 218

Orthodox

Those verses indicate the holy spirit descended upon Jesus, not the apostles, you cannot ignore John 7:39. It still bears witness that Abdul'Baha's explanation of these verses is completely inaccurate.

arthra

Concerning the verses in John 7:37-39

The problem is though that we don't really know who made that clarification..Did John later decide to add it?.. or one of the scribes years later to try to make a case for the belief in the Pentecost?

It's just not that clear..

and you'll note the words of Jesus are in the present tense

"Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Does anyone believe in me? Then, just as Scripture says, streams of living water will flow from inside him."

So I think John 7:39 was likely an interpolation and does not "flow" with the text. So why base your argument on a shaky text like that?

But hey.. I'm no Bible scholar...

But this is one area (The view of "the Comforter") where the Baha'i view is not the same as the standard Christian one... and here we are on a Baha'i forum!

Orthodox

Then why trust hte gospel of John at all if you are going to say "Oh well that verse is corrupted." You have no garuntee afterall? But let me give you some evidence, we have many texts of the New testament and from what i know none leave out this verse or alter it, the biggest alteration in John from what I know is an inserted story of Jesus and the woman in adultery. There is absolutely no basis for you to to ignore this verse, it flows perfectly with the gospel, noting that the apostles didn't have the Holy spirit, then coming along to the verse which speaks of the comforter coming to the apostles at Pentacost and the "Comforter who is the Holy spirit" was in them inspiring them and giving them the gift of tongues. And being on a bahai forum does not make it right.

arthra

After the lapse of time the Israelites deteriorated, and became subject to the Romans and the Greeks. Then the brilliant Star of Jesus rose from the horizon upon the Israelites, brightening the world, until all sects and creeds and nations were taught the beauty of unity. There cannot be any better proof than this that Jesus was the Word of God.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 42

Orthodox

Yes and are the gospels tehw words of Jesus? No they are the words of his followers and you have shown how willing you are to just dismiss a verse that doesn't agree with you. Perhaps you will get rid of John 1.1 Noting the divinity of the son as well as the verse in Luke in which jesus proves he was bodily raised. I see a terrible standard here for what is true in the bible and what is not. That is if it agrees with bahai, it is true, if it doesn't then its not verified as true. Much like the moslims do. Its a standard which would be laughed out of any rational university, humanist or religion based. Its that perpostous.

tonyfish58

That is not the case at all - We admit that we are no biblical scholars - Thank God for that bounty

Knowledge has and always will be a veil to the truth. When a new message comes and conflicts with the current belief you get these arguments that are happening right here right now!

Most of the people who believed in Jesus were not scholars, The scholars persecuted him that is something worth meditating on.

Regards Tony

bwb

"Consider those who rejected the Spirit (Jesus) when He came unto them with manifest dominion. How numerous the Pharisees who had secluded themselves in synagogues in His name, lamenting over their separation from Him, and yet when the portals of reunion were flung open and the divine Luminary shone resplendent from the Dayspring of Beauty, they disbelieved in God, the Exalted, the Mighty. They failed to attain His presence, notwithstanding that His advent had been promised them in the Book of Isaiah as well as in the Books of the Prophets and the Messengers. No one from among them turned his face towards the Dayspring of divine bounty except such as were destitute of any power amongst men.... Moreover, call thou to mind the one who sentenced Jesus to death. He was the most learned of his age in his own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take good heed and be of them that observe the warning."

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

bwb

"Call thou to remembrance Him Who was the Spirit (Jesus), Who when He came, the most learned of His age pronounced judgment against Him in His own country, whilst he who was only a fisherman believed in Him. Take heed, then, ye men of understanding heart! ... Consider those who opposed the Son (Jesus), when He came unto them with sovereignty and power. How many the Pharisees who were waiting to behold Him, and were lamenting over their separation from Him! And yet, when the fragrance of His coming was wafted over them, and His beauty was unveiled, they turned aside from Him and disputed with Him."

(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 83)

bwb

"Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people. By their sanction and authority, every Prophet of God hath drunk from the chalice of sacrifice, and winged His flight unto the heights of glory. What unspeakable cruelties they that have occupied the seats of authority and learning have inflicted upon the true Monarchs of the world, those Gems of divine virtue!"

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 15)

Orthodox

Wow how arrogant of Baha'u'llha. Its very ironic as well.

bwb

"On one occasion when they were resting, the merchant decided to speak to Hashim to try to guide him back to the fold. So he called him to come and join the others. Having thanked him for his selfless service and care, he began to converse with Hashim and remarked, 'How is it that with all my knowledge, I have failed to appreciate the validity of the Message of the Báb while you, an almost illiterate person, claim to have recognized the truth of His Mission?'

Hashim took a handful of sand in his hand and said, 'People like me have no merit in society. They are like the sand in the desert which has no value, yet, when the sun rises in the morning this sand is the first to become illumined by its rays. A learned man, however, is like a precious jewel. It is kept in a box and locked up in a room, and when the sun rises it remains in darkness.' The merchant was moved by this answer. He continued to learn from Hashim all the way home, until the veils which obscured his vision were removed and the jewel of his heart was enlightened by the radiance of God's new-born Faith. This simple answer by Hashim is very profound indeed. While it exalts the station of knowledge, it demonstrates that when the Sun of Truth appears in the world, men of learning must make an effort to open their hearts and souls to its rays and to become illumined by them."

(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 2, p. 33)

If one of the believers be kind to one of the negligent ones and with perfect love should gradually make him understand the reality of the Cause of God in such a way that the latter should know in what manner the Religion of God hath been founded and what its object is, doubtless he will become changed; excepting abnormal souls who are reduced to the state of ashes and whose hearts are like stones, yea, even harder.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 385)

Orthodox

Can I have list of these religious leaders of men who in all generations and places were wrong and did bad and terrible things? Was St Athanasius evil?

tonyfish58

"Beware, O believers in the unity of God, least ye be tempted to make any distinction between any Manifestation of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and everyone of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the cause of His Messengers" (GWB Pages 59-60)

It is not up to us to judge anyone - it is they that have to face their God an answer for their deeds.

Just remember Christ was crucified by people doing the right thing for their faith.

Cheers Tony

LarryK32

Couldn't we say the same thing about Christianity?

InvestigateTruth

“O Son, if thou art able not to sleep, then thou art able not to die. And if thou art able not to waken after sleep, then thou shalt be able not to rise after death.” -- Baha'u'llah - The Seven Valleys

Orthodox

No not really, as the earliest fathers and texts of the church ( New testament) speak clearly of Christian doctrine, that is the death for the salvation of sins, Christ rising physically and him being God.

Livindesert

Here is the fullness of the teachings about Jesus not messed with by early Pauline Christians.

Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from 104 the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended 105 the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it. -Abdul Baha

Livindesert

Paul's accounts the earliest we have are all of spiritual encounters.

Orthodox

You said you could say the same thing about Christianity, that hte beliefs of Christianity today are not in the earliest times. They certaintly are, through the fathers and the bible.

To answer the first question, JEsus did come down from heaven, he was incarnate from heaven by the Holy spirit, that is his flesh, he existed for eternity before heaven as we clearly read in the first chapter of john (and the word "logos" was made flesh and dwelt among us).

And No, the ressurection was certaintly not that. We know that the desciples did not begin preaching or become very zealous for their faith untill 43 days after the death that is pentacost. Jesus's ressurection was not spiritual, the gospels clearly testify to this when we read Luke, Mathew, mark and John, That Jesus ate food, that JEsus was touched at his feet, that his body was not in the tomb and that he appeared to Thomas and the others.

So no, that is not the true meaning. it is a false teaching. And do you reject Paul? Paul who was accepted by teh apostles? You make it seem like Paul corrupted JEsus. Truely you believe this? lord have mercy.

Orthodox

That being siad, the verse you quoted by Paul was not regarding Christ, but someone else.

Livindesert

cont...

Orthodox

Yes and Paul saw that vision after Jesus had ascended into heaven. as for the flesh and bone I merely offer this protestant site.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/physrez.html