LordOfGoblins

As I was pondering one moment at work what this could mean, I was struck with the idea of how it could actually mean so many things.
If we look at the idea purely from a non-literal perspective it does conjure up a lot of imigary and I am sure of it, literary metaphors.
Clouds meaning something that is obscured could be an indication of the hidden nature of the new manifestation of Gods coming.
Clouds could also mean expectations. For example, If we consider the sun as the pure light of reality and the clouds are the things that obscure the sun from reaching man we have to consider clouds as being such a thing similar to viels that interpose between man and God. Thus if people are all expecting the promised one to come looking a certain way, wearing a certain piece of clothing or speaking a certain language, these things are all the "clouds of peoples expectations obscuring their vision of the sun and the light of Gods reality".
So I am thinking so far clouds mean obscurity and expectations.
The image of clouds gives something of an overcast day. It is not a day where people are in a good mood, the sun is not shining and people are despondant. That is when the manifestation of God comes, and because it is down through the clouds i is a sudden event, ie we dont actually see him come until he is through the cloud.
These are just my observations, thanks for listening.

arthra

Thanks for your post..

It reminds me of some passages in the Kitab-i-Iqan..one among many but here is one:

By these luminous, these conclusive, and lucid statements, the meaning of "heaven" in the aforementioned verse hath thus been made clear and evident. And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall "come in the clouds of heaven." By the term "clouds" is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted:

"As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others."[1]

These "clouds" signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as "clouds."[1 Qur'án 2:87.]

~ Baha'u'llah,

The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 71-72

LordOfGoblins

Hi Arthra.

Of course noone knows better than Baha'u'llah who has innate knowledge and divine wisdom. However I do also want to talk about this purely from a laymans point of view. When writing a fantasy book, as I do, one can see how certain images conjure certain responses in our mind. We can use these literary conventions to create a feeling about what something means without knowing the great deeper meanings.
In this case I was given pause to wonder. Could it also be taken from a writers perspective to consider something that comes in the clouds. If this is true we can see things like the fact that people would not see something coming that comes through a cloud. And the other thing I mentioned before. God generally symbolizes the sun in the scriptures and clouds being that they obscure the sun could mean something that the expectations of the people are what is obscuring them and he will appear suddenly from within those obscuring expectations. If we consider history and how the Bab appeared within the expectations of the Muslims for the coming Mehdi we see how this is exactly true. Those whose visions were not "clouded" were able to recognise him.
I was curious what our Christian friends had to say about this but it seems they are silent. Nevermind. Thankyou for your reply.

grace and truth

Lord Of Goblins, you saw my recent post about the subject of clouds and so I have reproduced it below for other interested people to read. To challenge your ideas I would say two specific things: You say that everyone is born from a woman's body, which I would agree with, but I would ask you to read the verse from the book of Acts, quoted below. Those who saw Jesus taken up into the cloud were perplexed, but they were told that Jesus would appear in the same way that he left: appearing from heaven after being revealed from the cloud. With regard to your idea that the cloud is just a symbol, please do take the time to read through the verses that I have referenced below.


‘In the first Gospel according to Matthew it is recorded: And when they asked Jesus concerning the signs of His coming, He said unto them: "Immediately after the oppression [Matthew 24:29-31.] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then [Matthew 24:29-31.] (The Greek word used (Thlipsis) has two meanings: pressure [Matthew 24:29-31.] and oppression) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet." [Matthew 24:29-31.] Rendered into the Persian tongue, [The passage is quoted by Baha’u’llah in Arabic and interpreted in Persian.] the purport of these words is as follows: When the oppression and afflictions that are to befall mankind will have come to pass, then shall the sun be withheld from shining, the moon from giving light, the stars of heaven shall fall upon the earth, and the pillars of the earth shall quake. At that time, the signs of the Son of man shall appear in heaven, that is, the promised Beauty and Substance of life shall, when these signs have appeared, step forth out of the realm of the invisible into the visible world. And He saith: at that time, all the peoples and kindreds that dwell on earth shall bewail and lament, and they shall see that divine Beauty coming from heaven, riding upon the clouds with power, grandeur, and magnificence, sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet.’

Page 13, The Kitab-i-iqan, The Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah 1st Ed. Baha'i Publishing Trust

The accusation that some Christians have failed to understand these verses:

‘As most of the divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these verses, and have not grasped the significance of the Day of Resurrection, they therefore have foolishly interpreted these verses according to their idle and faulty conception. The one true God is My witness! Little perception is required to enable them to gather from the symbolic language of these two verses all that We have purposed to propound, and thus to attain, through the grace of the All-Merciful, the resplendent morn of certitude.’

Page 43, The Kitab-i-iqan, The Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah 1st Ed. Baha'i Publishing Trust

The Baha’i teaching on the word ‘cloud’ used in Matthew 29 verse 30

‘By the term "clouds" is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: "As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others." [Qur’an 2:87.] These "clouds" signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as "clouds".’

Page 39, The Kitab-i-iqan, The Book of Certitude, Baha'u'llah 1st Ed. Baha'i Publishing Trust

The places the same Greek word, ‘cloud’, is used in the New Testament*:

Acts Chapter 1 Verses 9 to 11 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. Behold, a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him."

Matthew 24:30 …and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky."

Mark 9:7 A cloud came, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is my beloved Son. Listen to him."

Mark 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 Jesus said, "I am. You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of the sky."

Luke 9:34-35 While he said these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud. A voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son. Listen to him!"

Luke 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1 Thessalonians 4:17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 10:1 I saw a mighty angel coming down out of the sky, clothed with a cloud. A rainbow was on his head. His face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire.

Revelation 14:15 Another angel came out from the temple, crying with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Send forth your sickle, and reap; for the hour to reap has come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe!"

Revelation 14:16 He who sat on the cloud thrust his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 11:12 I heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" They went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Revelation 14:14 I looked, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud one sitting like a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

An Old Testament reference to the One who is in the cloud (there are plenty of others):

Leviticus 16:2 The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.


Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages is an excellent place to start to explore the bible and learn about Jesus, the one who is full of grace and truth.


*The only other places that the Greek word for cloud (nephos) is used in the New Testament are in the following verses, but clearly not in the same way: Luke 12:54, Jude 1:12 and 2 Peter 2:17

LordOfGoblins

Grace and Truth.
Your refutation to my explanation is "please take the time to read the quotes bellow". That is no refutation indeed, these are the sort of quotes I am talking about.

My argument is that these quotes have a meaning. For example, sky is the heavens and heavens are the established churches the established religion and a simple explanation is that the clouds of heaven are the expectations that obscured the light of the sun (God) from reaching man. Look at how the church templars camped outside mount Carmel in 1844 for the promised one to Come down on a cloud onto this mountain. I would present to you this idea.
Things like Sky, clouds, the sun, the moon are all symbols of a real religious thing.
Even as Abdul'Baha says. Where would the stars that fall down from heaven find a place on the earth? A star is measured to be millions of times larger than the earth and many stars are measured to be far larger than our own star. Where would they find room to fall down on the earth? Have you actually considerd the notion of a star falling down? It is nonsense. A star exists in the limitless space it cannot fall down because it can only float through space. So what do you think the stars falling down from heaven could mean literally?

Now please dont refute me by saying "read the quotes". I dont claim to have all understanding but at least pick one quote instead of 10 and we can discuss possible meanings in that.

grace and truth

Leviticus 16:2 The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.'

This verse from the Old Testament describes how the believers of that day were supposed to approach the 'holy place'. I have two questions which you might like to ponder: 1) Who was it who was 'in the cloud', and 2) What is the significance of the 'mercy seat'?

LordOfGoblins

Revelation 14:16 He who sat on the cloud thrust his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

I want to take this quote for example. (I will get back to you about the one you mentioned later). I have not read the bible extensivly at all (I admit). But this does remind me of the saying "He will seperate the wheet from the chuff" and "You reap what you sow".
THis is from Mathew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Now if we consider that the messiah came to harvest the good field reap the healthy weat this corresponds to certain sayings of Baha'u'llah that he came to plant seeds, plough the field, that God is a divine farmer.
Now as I mentioned my understanding is cloud is like expectations that obscure peoples vision from recognizing the prophet. So lets say the Messiah Baha'u'llah (or in your case Jesus because you are not a Bahai) came to do these things he did it from inside a cloud. He did it from inside peoples wrong understandings of who he was. He came when the Jews expected him but failed to recognize him. And from inside his cloud he reaped the earth. Here reaping the earth comes after ploughing the field. And ploughing the field means raising up the mighty saints like Peter and the apostles. They were the good harvest after the earth was test and everyone else was rotten (well mostly). So you see. God is the divine farmer and Jesus comes to test the earth and the harvest brings forth the apostles.

Now I know only the book of Job well in the whole bible so I will give you this quote.
"Job, Chapter 5, 026: Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season. "
So you see a good man is like this ripe corn. And Job was made a plentiful corn by his sufferings.
Anyway I also leave this open to also those Bahais with more knowledge of the bible or want to contribute.
thanks for listening.

grace and truth

From 2 Peter Chapter 3 verses 3 to 10:

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

LordOfGoblins

Hmmm. So you didnt like my explanation? Or are you quoting another verse here you want me to interpret.
-All the best.