Rani

Dear Friends,

I wondered if I/ we could use this Forum to deepen on certain passages from the Writings.

I thought to start with the Hidden Words.

While some of them really speak to me, some others have seemed rather hard-hitting, especially as we don't always understand their context.

Am also wondering if I should start from no. 1 or just pick one out.

Here goes:

4. O SON OF JUSTICE!
Whither can a lover go but to the land of his beloved? and what seeker findeth rest away from his heart's desire? To the true lover reunion is life, and separation is death. His breast is void of patience and his heart hath no peace. A myriad lives he would forsake to hasten to the abode of his beloved.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

Is this talking of the love a human being has for another? If it were the love a person has for God, then the word 'beloved' would be capitalised, right?

LordOfGoblins

Hi Rani.
I think this is the most powerful form of love man can have to man. It is love at its extreme. It is not healthy and is sortof a madness.
This is not the sortof love you want to have for another person, but for God perhaps it is...
thats what I think.

cire perdue

"Where can a lover go..." to me means one would want to be a lover, it is the station you would achieve, then naturally, of course, one would seek his beloved. If you achieve the state of loving God then you are compelled by your state of being to seek Him. I think beloved isn't capitalized because it can mean human love, but infers God as well. I think one cannot depend on capitalization. If ones says lover then there is an object of love. To be loved and not love is empty. It is not a passive state to love, it is fulfilling......

Pollwr

Rani,
I love everything about the Hidden Words and it is great you have chosen to discuss them.
I tend to agree with Cire. I think that this talks of the attraction of a lover to the beloved and for me I think that it is a way of understanding the more abstract concept of loving God and attraction to the Faith by comparing it to the strength of feeling that we have for those people we love throughout our life.
I do wonder about the opening lines of the Hidden Words at times and if they have signifigance I do not understand. I wonder why this one is entitled "O SON OF JUSTICE!" Does anyone have any thoughts about that?

cire perdue

I like the questions, they make me reflect.

Baha'u'llah addresses us as sons of justice. That would infer that we are born to the station of being just. It infers an inheritance of the capacity to be just and reaffirms the importance of justice which is to see things from God's point of view using spritual senses.

Robertus

Taking all of the Words in Context I think that Baha'u'llah is clearly speaking of the relationship between God and his chosen, or us. I really can't read the love between people into these words since the Hidden Words themselves rarely relate info about intra-human relationships.

Rani

[QUOTE=Pollwr;23695]..
I tend to agree with Cire. I think that this talks of the attraction of a lover to the beloved and for me I think that it is a way of understanding the more abstract concept of loving God and attraction to the Faith by comparing it to the strength of feeling that we have for those people we love throughout our life.'

Yes, thank you everyone. It makes sense that it is primarily about the love we have or should have, for God. I just got thrown by the lack of a capital for 'beloved'.
But the love we can have for another person is analogous for the love we do or should have, for God. And 'beloved' isn't capitalised because out of the 4 types of loves Abdu'l-Baha describes, this Hidden Word is about our love for God, and not about God's love for us.
God loves us, but He can't play the role of a lover in a partially romantic analogy. He loves us in a different way. So, this is about our love for Him.

-Hope that last bit didn't sound too strange.

Rani

The following extract is not taken from a Hidden Word, but it is still scripture to deepen on, so I decided to include it here. I note that I couldn't find it on Ocean, but it is from the book 'The Tabernacle of Unity' by Baha'u'llah.

'The Lord of the world saith: O servants! Forsake your own desires and seek that which I have desired for you. Walk ye not without one to guide you on the way, and accept ye not the words of every guide. How numerous the guides who have gone astray and failed to discover the straight Path! He alone is a guide who is free from the bondage of the world and whom nothing whatsoever can deter from speaking the truth'.
p.70.

Well I don't think I've seen anything similar in the Writings of Baha'u'llah. I haven't seen anything really about having a 'guide' before. Rather it seemed that there is a fair bit of stress on personal responsibility. Even when I was first investigating the Faith, if I had a question, I would often be advised to just read for myself. ;-

Does anyone have any particular impressions about this passage?
Thanks!

aidan

On first investigating the faith,I became friendly with and was drawn to a Baha'i family in my locality.Gradually I found myself growing more and more dependant upon this family and I found that I was expounding their ideas and beliefs and not really thinking for myself.I am now at a stage in my spiritual development where I feel that I need to study and love the Faith on my own and only seek help and guidance as and when I need it.PS brethren,define 'deepening' please

kavaliro

I do have an impression, but it is only that: an impression. Here goes:

When we are new to the Faith, we have no idea how to find the information we need, or really how to be a Bahá´i. We are like baby birds who know they want to fly, but do not know how to do so. During that time, we need another Bahá'i to guide us. Ideally, the person who shared the Faith with the new Bahá'i or someone very knowledgeable and trustworthy should take the new Bahá'i "under their wing." It should be their primary Bahá'i activity to help the new Bahá'i get to the point where they are able to teach the faith on their own; comfortably, and with confidence and love. I think the term for this duty and privilege is "accompaniment." This passage, to me, is an instruction for a new Bahá´i, saying if he doesn´t have such a guide, take the bull by the horns and go find one. Yet also in this Quote is a warning that these guides who take new Bahá'is under their wing are not perfect. We should be weighing their council on the measure of the Writings, because only the Messenger is a Perfect Guide.

Rani

Thank you both, that is interesting. I do note however, that the passage is addressed 'Oh servants', -I mean it doesn't say 'O seekers', so for myself, I would have taken it to be directed to baha'is (His servants) in general, not just new baha'is.
But that is another way of looking at it, thanks.

aidan

Would someone please define 'deepening'

kavaliro

In Bahá'í jargon, it means studying the Writings and meditating on their meanings; becoming more knowledgeable. It could apply to Bahá'í history, customs and such as well, I suppose. To me, it signifies mainly the accumulation of spiritual knowledge. I don't think 'deepening' describes the application, only the accumulation. Though applying what you learn is also extremely important.

I've seen 'deepen' used both a transitive verb and an intransitive verb, but normally it is used intransitively. In other words, "We deepened ourselves," is not normally used, but rather "We need to deepen."

Usually I see deepening used as an adjective. "We took a deepening course."

Essence of GOD

Verb: Make or become deep or deeper.

arthra

" .... Shoghi Effendi hopes that you will exert all your effort to deepen your knowledge of the literature of the movement, until you become fully acquainted with its spirit and tenets.

Unless you do obtain such a firm hold you will never be able to teach others and render real service to the promulgation of the Faith.

"Of special importance is the Book of the Íqán which explains the attitude of the Cause towards the prophets of God and their mission in the history of society. Besides this there is Some Answered Questions of the Master and the 'Dawn-Breakers' of Nabil.

"Every Bahá'í should master these books and be able to explain their contents to others. Besides their importance, they are interesting and most absorbing."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 9, 1932)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 559)

Or how about this:

35 ….the Báb hath said:

"Should a tiny ant desire in this day to be possessed of such power as to be able to unravel the abstrusest and most bewildering passages of the Qur'án, its wish will no doubt be fulfilled, inasmuch as the mystery of eternal might vibrates within the innermost being of all created things." If so helpless a creature can be endowed with so subtle a capacity, how much more efficacious must be the power released through the liberal effusions of the grace of Bahá'u'lláh! Wherefore, O ye illumined youth, strive by night and by day to unravel the mysteries of the mind and spirit, and to grasp the secrets of the Day of God. Inform yourselves of the evidences that the Most Great Name hath dawned.

a. Compilation, Bahá'í Education, p. 41 [Ed. - sel. 97]

Compilations. Compilation on Deepening (Kindle Locations 157-162). Bahá’í eBooks Publications.

tonyfish58

To me it is interesting as to what the First and second Hidden Words are..

The first Council is this

1. O SON OF SPIRIT!

My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.


This then must be the secret to obtaining Faith and being able to receive the bounty of recognising Baha'u'llah, it then goes on to

2. O SON OF SPIRIT!

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Thus the ability to see the Faith through our own eyes and accept it by our selves, may be the prerequisite for Justice? The Hidden words then go into multiple passages re Love.

So could I conclude this so?

One must be pure, kindly and of radiant heart with a innate sense of Justice so we can move towards the Love for Baha'u'llah?

Regards Tony

Rani

the Hidden Words, that is. And I feel sorry to say this, 'as I don't want anyone to feel grieved, due to my own discouragement.

I wonder why there isn't more in the Hidden Words about love toward others.

The first (Arabic) one talks about being kindly, and there are some that talk about not finding fault. However, when Christ talked about the whole law of God being summed up by loving God with all your heart, and loving thy neighbour as yourself, why isn't there more in the Hidden Words about kindness to others?
Rather, there seems to be a lot about being content with God, or how we've fallen short from God.. 'Ye are like clear and bitter water'.. How can some of these be used as any feel-good mantra if you are trying to feel a loving connection with God?
I guess I just don't feel uplifted by maybe half of them or more, like I am by some other Writings. Is there some rule that we must read Hidden Words every day? I know Abdu'l-Baha encouraged us to, but sometimes I don't find them..loving.

Sorry guys.. But if anyone can deepen with me on them I will be grateful.

cire perdue

Just off the top of my head, I think there is more about love than ever before, but it is about the act of loving and what it takes to be a loving person. It takes justice to love, and it takes looking at thine own self to love. I think there is quite a blueprint for a more advanced form of love than in any other revelation, though I think it is there in them. I do have the advantage of about 30 years of age on you, and been kicked through the screen door not just a few times.

In this age we are instructed that God is our Beloved. This implies an incredibly mystical relationship to God. Mystical meaning merely one's personal relationship with God. As Baha'is who do as instructed to pray and read the Writings we will progress. It is not always disectable. No one before us has had this quite so clearly except maybe Sufis.

aidan

Our Faith is built on a bedrock of love.God created us out of love.Bab died for us out oflove.Baha'u'llah and Abdulbaha suffered for us out of love.The Guardian and Universal House of Justice nurture us out of love.

Rani

If the Hidden Words are designed to help us have a loving connection to God, I, for one, think we need to cut down on saying that God is unknowable. Perhaps in His essence we cannot understand or grasp Him fully, but even the short obligatory prayer says that we have been created to know him and love Him. If he is totally unknowable then that is just a tease!

Rather, I say again, that in many of the prayers and Writings, it tells us what God is like: that He is Loving, all-Forgiving, Merciful, Just etc.. If we didn't have these descriptions of Him, then we would not have desire to know Him.
Why don't we concentrate on these - on what we have been told about Him, and what we *do know?

Some of the Hidden Words seem quite rejecting in their tone, which doesn't necessarily facilitate a close feeling with God.

25. O YE SEEMING FAIR YET INWARDLY FOUL!
Ye are like clear but bitter water, which to outward seeming is crystal pure but of which, when tested by the divine Assayer, not a drop is accepted. Yea, the sun beam falls alike upon the dust and the mirror, yet differ they in reflection even as doth the star from the earth: nay, immeasurable is the difference!
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

-I'm not going to use that one to feel good about myself for the day!

I guess also, sometimes when I read them, it seems like I just have to be some kind of island.. Yes, people can fail each other, and in that sense human love does not suffice on its own, but we are not meant to be islands either. Without giving love and affection to others, the earth is an empty tomb, and there is not much fruit that is borne in this world.

I guess I struggle also, as one or two others have with some of Baha'u'llah's Writings. (In) Many of them He is rebuking someone, whether it be some Sultan, or someone else.. I sit down to do my devotions, and with some of the passages, one wonders whether they are speaking to you.

LordOfGoblins

Rani. I want to start by saying I really like your posts.

What I have learned from my time as being a Bahai is that indeed God does seem to sometimes want us to be an island. Giving up all save him and relying on noone but God for me, seems to be interpreted as no other way. i also struggled alot with certain ideas. If you consider though how when manifestations of God come they might be totally rejected by everyone around them and they still do not compromise their teaching, this might give us insight into what that means. Number one is the relationship with God and man and everything else is secondary to that... If for example. God forbid your husband started to hate the Bahai faith and wanted you to turn away from it, you would chose your faith over him and not turn away from your faith because of your human love for him. I know that sounds terribly harsh, but I cannot see it any other way.
This is often a great test for people as their famililes sometimes influence then away from being Bahais...

I guess I struggle also, as one or two others have with some of Baha'u'llah's Writings. (In) Many of them He is rebuking someone, whether it be some Sultan, or someone else.. I sit down to do my devotions, and with some of the passages, one wonders whether they are speaking to you.

yes he is rebuking them. Remember in this revelation God is giving victory through utterance. Baha'u'llah is telling them off in a way of speaking. If you think this is harsh though, then you should consider that in those context not even these words from Baha'u'llah would have been enough to snap these people out of it and put aside their tyranny! Some people need harsh words because they are so selfish and arrogant that their is no other way to deal with them.

Just focus on the positive, if that is what helps you. I recommend you read more of Abdul'Bahas writings as they are lighter.
kind regards

cire perdue

What you are saying is interesting to me, because I am aware that to perceive God as loving I have had to work through parent issues. They were not demonstrative in healthy ways. They were controlling, and due to that I colored God with their dealings with me. I had to concentrate and work through Al Anon for a good deal of time to believe that God is much more loving and forgiving and merciful than I could attribute to God, due to my frame of reference. What helped the most was going to meetings and hearing people talk about how much God meant and did in their lives related to healing and understanding and changing themselves. It is extremely common to put parent stuff on God. It is addressed in AA and other 12 step programs.

Hearing that slowly helped me heal the lack of understanding that I had from the frame of reference that I had from having dysfunctional parents. I understand where you are coming from. Use of these more bitter seeming HW verses though is just as applicable at times when I have been bringing myself to account each day and it gave me labels and concepts to understand me and also to question myself, "Am I this clear but bitter water, am I shallow?"

It's a matter of perspective. It takes time and living longer to be fair and loving to one's self. We have to love ourselves to love others, we have to be fair to ourselves to be fair to others. God remains more friend to us than we are to ourselves.

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani I wonder why there isn't more in eth Hidden Words about love toward others.

Perhaps because, as is plainly stated in the Introduction, they're about the teachings of the past religions, not about those of the Baha'i Faith!

Peace,

Bruce

Pollwr

"This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue."

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Bruce, I looked back at the introduction and found this. Is this what you are referring to? I don't think this means that the hidden words are about older religions.

I base my opinion on this. Elsewhere in the writing we are urged not to distinguish between the Manifestations of God. We are told their messages vary due to the capacity of their audience (the maturity of mankind at the time they walked this earth). I think this introduction is saying that these truths are eternal and have been known to previous Manifestations of God.

I have always viewed the Hidden words as a summary of the heart of our Faith.

Rani, I believe there are strong references to love for others in the Hidden Words. I think there is much hidden in the Hidden words for us to find as we study repeatedly. Because they are brief and in a summary form, they do not have as much repetition as some of the other writings.

I think "In the garden of thine heart plant naught but the rose of love" is pretty clear.

I think there are also times in the Bahá'í teachings that things are implicit. For example, in the Bahá'í marriage ceremony, bride and groom must repeat "we will all, verily, abide by the law of God" They do not have to make other pledges. Implicit in that is that both parties have read and understood a lot of other things on fidelity, personal conduct, bringing up children etc.

In the Hidden words, I would say writing such as these

"O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.

7. O SON OF MAN!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee."

Imply that we should love God with all of our hearts. If we are to do that, we wish to obey His Will. If we are to do that, we are going to seek to find what that Will is. If we study the other writings in the Faith we will be of no doubt that we should love our fellow human beings. This can also be seen clearly in the examples set by the central figures of the Faith.

aidan

A Catholic theologan advised me that its not always helpful to refer to God as father because not evveryone has had good relationships with their parents

LordOfGoblins

'why is there not more hidden words telling us to love eachother'?

Personally I actually prefer kindness to love. Love is an all-consuming emotion when at its extreme, it is also painful in separation (as pointed out by Baha'u'llah himself) and it singles people out and separates them. Kindness however you can show to all alike and it will not tax you so much.
I hope this helps???

LordOfGoblins

By the way. I think some Bahais equate 'love' with being the source of all goodness. this is not really the case. And in fact the idea has come from out interpretations of earlier religions as well some novice priests who reveal prayers that they believe to be the source of wisdom unto man (in their ignorance i might add).
Read this.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 155-157

Baha'u'llah says
"THE source of all good is trust in God, submission unto His command, and contentment with His holy will and pleasure. "

It is definately worth meditating on these words of Baha'u'llah in words of wisdom. I hope I am not doing your head in.

Rani

Oh, no no.. not doing my head in at all.. Thank you all for your comments and inputs. I appreciate it. : ) I'm v. sleepy tonight, but will respond soon.