knowledge the gievous veil

aidan · 09-19-2011, 04:37 PM

In the Kitab-i-Iqan is stated "Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his creator".As true knowledge comes from God,what do my brethren think is meant by this quotation?

LordOfGoblins · 09-19-2011, 05:30 PM

What people think they know will cause them to prejudge against new knowledge given to them. A good analogy is when someone introduces a radical new scientific concept like "the earth is round".
Immediately 90% of people swell their chests espousing all the knowledge of the science of the day to proove what they think they know until the idea is passed around and the evidence becomes too overwhelming to ignore. Only a small % of pure hearted will judge the idea in an unbiased way or admit that they dont know and then investigate it, the majority will offhandedly reject it...

Even if the science of the day was as simple as "If the earth was round then how can we not fall off of it when we are at the bottom".
It might sound silly to us now, but made sense to people back then...

cire perdue · 09-19-2011, 05:49 PM

Intellectual knowledge is not spiritual understanding. People who are the most comfortable with intellectual sides of things want to solve all problems intellectually, when the issue may be spiritual/emotional. Spiritual solutions often entail emotional issues. At some point the intellect is going to fail to hide the problem and one will be faced with it and have to learn another way to do things or find more ways to run away. I am coming to understand that feelings can be spiritually based, are like intuition, and require appreciation and understanding.

I think Americans would live completely in the intelletual realm if they could. Rather than head in the sand, I would say heart in the sand. Compartmentalize reality, ignore anything you don't like and keep doing what you want. I know we have all had something that we thought was correct and when we found it was wrong were dumbfounded. Well, what if it is a matter of opinion, my opinion against whomever. How attached to my opinion I am can be a spiritual maker or breaker.

aidan · 09-20-2011, 05:09 AM

Thank you brothers.So perceptions of knowledge can imprison us rather than set us free.So not all knowledge comes from God then?

spirit · 09-20-2011, 05:18 AM

Our IDEAS of knowledge is the "veil" that blocks our relationship with God. The ego perse. There is nothing wrong with knowledge, we need it to survive, to learn. When we put that knowledge on a pedastal, and IT becomes our God, we cannot serve two masters, so to speak, our relationship to God ceases.

kavaliro · 09-20-2011, 07:26 AM

It's our lack of wisdom that makes the knowledge we do have so dangerous. As a metaphor, let's consider water: we need water to survive. Water is precious to us and is a good thing for us to consume. But on the other hand, used incorrectly, water can become our doom. Even a few tablespoons of water can drown us, if we try to inhale it. Water can crush us if we try to dive more deeply than our capacity allows. We can even harm ourselves indirectly with water: we could over-water our plants and kill our crops, and be without food because of it. If we change its form, it becomes dangerous in other ways. Sufficiently pressurized water can slice through anything. Water freezes into icicles, which falls and kills people every winter. Steam also can kill.

One particularly poetic example of the metaphor, in my opinion, is that of superheated water: take a container of absolutely pure water, and heat it. it can be heated well past the normal boiling point of water, which is very useful. But add the slightest impurity to this superheated water, and it explodes violently and dangerously! Has this not happened in the past with religious knowledge? Isn't it still happening?

What this topic really is about, though, is how knowledge becomes a veil. With all the knowledge we have now in the world, it makes our lives too comfortable, and so man forgets to strive to know God. All knowledge comes from God, but the purpose of that knowledge is to provide us the means to draw closer to God. Wisdom is knowing how to apply knowledge correctly; ultimately, it is knowing how to use the knowledge we have been granted to draw nearer to God. Without wisdom, and with so much knowledge as we have today, doesn't it act as a veil?

I just had a semi-random thought, about the story of Jacob's Ladder, and it seems good to share: knowledge is like the rungs of a ladder, but wisdom is a ladder's rails. It takes both to create a ladder, but the rails are more important. If the ladder is missing a rung, we can step over it with effort. If a ladder is missing a section of rail, it is unsafe or impossible to climb.

aidan · 09-20-2011, 07:41 AM

I think that some knowledge eg certain scientific knowledge can prevent us from seeing God's truth.How often has revelation been dscounted due to men believing that their knowledge makes intellecually impossible that which is being revealed to us ?

LordOfGoblins · 09-20-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aidan

I think that some knowledge eg certain scientific knowledge can prevent us from seeing God's truth.How often has revelation been dscounted due to men believing that their knowledge makes intellecually impossible that which is being revealed to us ?

Hi. My opinion is that scientific knowledge is okay but yes it can make people swell with pride and therby chosing to ignore the manifestation of Gods own wisdom and claims for the day. This is most especially prevalent in this current age where scientific advancements have 'gone through the roof'.
Knowledge is a grevious veil, but not all knowledge is bad knowledge. Truth leads to mans exaltation but idle fancy leads to his abasement. I think Baha'u'llah is talking about peoples preconcieved ideas as well as their attachment to their learning. For example a person might know the old testament off by heart and cling to its words and therefore because Jesus does not come with literal fulfilment they do not recognize him. Obviosuly this is a parallel to Baha'u'llahs coming as well. How many times have I seen Christians use their knowledge of scripture when debating in this very forum in a way that is completely useless to them and just to brandish a sword, so to speak, against the Bahai interpretations.
cheers

09-19-2011, 04:37 PM	#1
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	knowledge the gievous veil In the Kitab-i-Iqan is stated "Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his creator".As true knowledge comes from God,what do my brethren think is meant by this quotation?

09-19-2011, 05:30 PM	#2
LordOfGoblins Senior Member Joined: Dec 2010 From: Australia Posts: 1,329	What people think they know will cause them to prejudge against new knowledge given to them. A good analogy is when someone introduces a radical new scientific concept like "the earth is round". Immediately 90% of people swell their chests espousing all the knowledge of the science of the day to proove what they think they know until the idea is passed around and the evidence becomes too overwhelming to ignore. Only a small % of pure hearted will judge the idea in an unbiased way or admit that they dont know and then investigate it, the majority will offhandedly reject it... Even if the science of the day was as simple as "If the earth was round then how can we not fall off of it when we are at the bottom". It might sound silly to us now, but made sense to people back then... Last edited by LordOfGoblins; 09-19-2011 at 05:35 PM.

09-19-2011, 05:49 PM	#3
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,618	Goblin said it well Intellectual knowledge is not spiritual understanding. People who are the most comfortable with intellectual sides of things want to solve all problems intellectually, when the issue may be spiritual/emotional. Spiritual solutions often entail emotional issues. At some point the intellect is going to fail to hide the problem and one will be faced with it and have to learn another way to do things or find more ways to run away. I am coming to understand that feelings can be spiritually based, are like intuition, and require appreciation and understanding. I think Americans would live completely in the intelletual realm if they could. Rather than head in the sand, I would say heart in the sand. Compartmentalize reality, ignore anything you don't like and keep doing what you want. I know we have all had something that we thought was correct and when we found it was wrong were dumbfounded. Well, what if it is a matter of opinion, my opinion against whomever. How attached to my opinion I am can be a spiritual maker or breaker.

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09-20-2011, 05:09 AM	#4
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	Thank you brothers.So perceptions of knowledge can imprison us rather than set us free.So not all knowledge comes from God then?

09-20-2011, 05:18 AM	#5
spirit Member Joined: Aug 2011 From: Milwaukee Posts: 62	Our IDEAS of knowledge is the "veil" that blocks our relationship with God. The ego perse. There is nothing wrong with knowledge, we need it to survive, to learn. When we put that knowledge on a pedastal, and IT becomes our God, we cannot serve two masters, so to speak, our relationship to God ceases.

09-20-2011, 07:26 AM	#6
kavaliro Member Joined: May 2010 From: Texas Posts: 39	It's our lack of wisdom that makes the knowledge we do have so dangerous. As a metaphor, let's consider water: we need water to survive. Water is precious to us and is a good thing for us to consume. But on the other hand, used incorrectly, water can become our doom. Even a few tablespoons of water can drown us, if we try to inhale it. Water can crush us if we try to dive more deeply than our capacity allows. We can even harm ourselves indirectly with water: we could over-water our plants and kill our crops, and be without food because of it. If we change its form, it becomes dangerous in other ways. Sufficiently pressurized water can slice through anything. Water freezes into icicles, which falls and kills people every winter. Steam also can kill. One particularly poetic example of the metaphor, in my opinion, is that of superheated water: take a container of absolutely pure water, and heat it. it can be heated well past the normal boiling point of water, which is very useful. But add the slightest impurity to this superheated water, and it explodes violently and dangerously! Has this not happened in the past with religious knowledge? Isn't it still happening? What this topic really is about, though, is how knowledge becomes a veil. With all the knowledge we have now in the world, it makes our lives too comfortable, and so man forgets to strive to know God. All knowledge comes from God, but the purpose of that knowledge is to provide us the means to draw closer to God. Wisdom is knowing how to apply knowledge correctly; ultimately, it is knowing how to use the knowledge we have been granted to draw nearer to God. Without wisdom, and with so much knowledge as we have today, doesn't it act as a veil? I just had a semi-random thought, about the story of Jacob's Ladder, and it seems good to share: knowledge is like the rungs of a ladder, but wisdom is a ladder's rails. It takes both to create a ladder, but the rails are more important. If the ladder is missing a rung, we can step over it with effort. If a ladder is missing a section of rail, it is unsafe or impossible to climb.

09-20-2011, 07:41 AM	#7
aidan Senior Member Joined: Jul 2011 From: n ireland Posts: 413	I think that some knowledge eg certain scientific knowledge can prevent us from seeing God's truth.How often has revelation been dscounted due to men believing that their knowledge makes intellecually impossible that which is being revealed to us ?