LoverofGlory

Allahuabha brothers and sisters! I just have two questions that I was hoping you all could give me some guidance on. As someone that reads the Bible, Qu'ran, and Revelation of Baha'u'llah voraciously, I had considered myself familiar with the prophecies that Baha'u'llah fulfilled, but after coming across two passages of the Master, I am a bit confused.

So, my questions

1) Is Baha'u'llah the Return of Christ or is the Bab? Although I know the Guardian states in God Passes By that Baha'u'llah is "The Return of the Son in the Glory of the Everlasting Father" I am wondering if this station is different from that of the Second Coming of Christ referred to by Christ Himself in the Bible, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again" (John 14:3). The source of my confusion comes from this passage of the Master, quoted by the Guardian in a little book I have called "SHOGHI EFFENDI". Here is the Passage:
"You have written that there is a difference among the believers concerning the `Second Coming of Christ.' Gracious God! Time and again this question hath arisen, and its answer hath emanated in a clear and irrefutable statement from the pen of `Abdu'l-Bahá, that what is meant in the prophecies by the `Lord of Hosts' and the `Promised Christ' is the Blessed Perfection (Bahá'u'lláh) and His holiness the Exalted One (the Báb)

So, for me it seems as though the Master is stating the titles of Lord of Hosts and Promised Christ and saying that Baha'u'llah is the Lord of Hosts, and the Bab the Promised Christ, as Lord of Hosts is mentioned first, then Baha'u'llah's name mentioned first, and then the Promised Christ mentioned 2nd, and the Bab mentioned second.

Another thought I had is that maybe since the Bab and Baha'u'llah are twin manifestations, that the Bab was both the Lord of Hosts and the Promised Christ, and Baha'u'llah was also the Lord of Hosts and the Promised Christ, as Baha'u'llah refers many times to the Bab as "my previous Manifestation".


2) I am having difficulty understanding the Master's explanation of the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel from Some Answered Questions. I will not paste the whole thing here, but the part I'm having difficulty with is when He states that "Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel."

So, the date of the edict is 457 BC, and the Birth of Christ would be the year 0, right? It seems like that would be either 457 or 458 years, depending on whether or not we count the actual year of the edict as well. And then between the year 0 and 1844 there are either 1844 or 1845 years, depending on whether you count the year 0 or not...

Any help that my spiritual family could give me on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much, Allahuabha!

tonyfish58

That's a good Question :-)

All the Prophets can be called the return of the former prophets. Thus in that sense Muhammad and the Bab were also the Return of Christ. There are writings of Baha'u'llah that explain this.

But in the Big Picture it was Baha'u'llah that was the promise of the Bible and Baha'u'llah has many titles. Shoghi Effendi has left us a Tablet where He shows all the names applicable to the Bab & Baha'ullah (Sorry will have to post later, that is if Arthra does not post them first :-)

The Bab was the forerunner to usher in the promised Day & Baha'ullah who fulfilled many of the Biblical Prophesies.

This is a good link to start with - The Báb, Forerunner of Bahá'u'lláh

I will post again later as I am pressed for time

Another link - http://bahai-library.com/momen_prophetology_archetypes

Regards Tony

Sen McGlinn

The birth of Christ is assumed in this calculation to be the year 1, not the year 0, which does not exist. Abdu'l-Baha says that the relevant decree was issued "in the seventh year of his reign -- that is, in 457 B.C." and that "from the date of the issuing of the edict .... until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 42). He is not counting a year 0, or the year 457, but is counting all the years between 457 and 1 AD. And the 1844 counts all the years starting with 1 AD up to and including 1844.

I don't think we actually know a precise date for the edict: "in the 7th year" is a 1-year range. Presuming the Babylonian years begin at new year's day, not the day the new king was crowned, it means 6 to 7 years after the king was crowned.

InvestigateTruth

A relevant verse from the Iqan would be:

"He the Revealer of the unseen Beauty, addressing one day His disciples, referred unto His passing, and, kindling in their hearts the fire of bereavement, said unto them: “I go away and come again unto you.” And in another place He said: “I go and another will come Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfil all that I have said.” Both these sayings have but one meaning, were you to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with divine insight." Book of Iqan, p.7

Iconodule

Well since Bahais affirm JEsus is Not Mirza Hussain, it cannot be the return of Christ since they are individual Christ's apparently existing with God before the Creation of hte universe. So yeah.

InvestigateTruth

I thought you have been informed before Of the Station of The Bab and Baha'u'llah:

"I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade. Whoso recognizeth Me, assurance and all good are in store for him, and whoso faileth to recognize Me, infernal fire and all evil await him..."

- The Bab

Iconodule

Everytime I say something people contradict it. Some Bahai think that Jesus is Mirza Hussain, you bahai have told me he is not. So clearly there cannot be a return of Christ since in your view it is not Jesus Christ, thus not him returning.

InvestigateTruth

If you believe in physical return of Jesus with the same body, then you are right, Baha'u'llah is not that Jesus. But we believe in the spiritual appearance of Holy reality of God in His Manifestations, and in this sense Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ. We don't believe that Jesus physically will ever return. But you can wait for Jesus to come back if you want.
Good Luck with that!

Iconodule

I will believe in what Christ said, that HE will return. And to return he must come again, not another Christ. Thats predicated on his words. BUt then again Mirza al Hussain was never a Christ, he was not thee Christ. There is only one ultimate Christ, he was not MOses, he was not Muhammad he was not your false prophet. But In the end the words of Jesus matter to me more than the beliefs of the bahai.

Pollwr

This is my favourite explanation of this point

"The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.

These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: "No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers." For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur'án, revealed: "I am all the Prophets." Likewise, He saith: "I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus." Similar statements have been made by Imam Ali. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God's immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but One." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all." 52

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: "I am the return of all the Prophets," He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established....

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: "Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit."

It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.

It hath ever been evident that all these divergencies of utterance are attributable to differences of station. Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been, and are applicable to those Essences of Being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of Divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of Divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the Divine Being.

Viewed in the light of their second station -- the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards -- they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete 54 self-effacement. Even as He saith: "I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you."...

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine." And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance, "I am the Messenger of God," He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God." Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and the "Hidden" -- all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, "We are the Servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 52)

InvestigateTruth

If you remember Elijah according to Old Testament was raised to Heaven. Jews were given the Prophecy of return of Elijah. When Jesus appeared, He confirmed John the Baptist was the return of Elijah.
So, this is the way of God. This is how He returns His prophets. His way is consistant. There is no change in the way of God. It is clear then, return of Jesus would be in the same way. The Spiritual appearance of Christ.
It is also in Bible that Jesus said He would return with a New Name.

Iconodule

Jesus is clear to state that he himself will return, not someone merely representing him. It is not a return if he himself does not come. He will come as Daniel says, with judgement to his church. Your prophet if he was the Christ never came to his church, never sought to help his church. Afterall he did abandon it right?

Christ will return of that he assures us. BTw the bible never says he will return witha new name. The bible never says Mirza Al Hussain would be the holy spirit.

InvestigateTruth

Where Daniel says that?

Revelation 3:12 "....and I will write upon him my new name."

But it says Glory of God comes. Baha'u'llah means Glory of God.

I thougth we already went through these with you, didn't we?

Iconodule

Revelation 3:13 says that he would speak to the churches, Mirza Al Hussain didn't care about the churches and only ever wrote to the pope of rome never to any of the other Christians.

As for his "name" meaning glory of God that is Self fulfilling isnt it? If I call my self the Glory of God i could just as easily by that very means be like Mirza Al Hussain. And believe me that is his name or what he was known as. So it doesnt help you to give this bad defence. Though read Daniel 12 and see that it actually speaks about the end times and ressurection, which some will be risen to glory others to damnation (paraphraising) in direct contradiction to Bahai which holds there will be no ressurection as it would seem.

LordOfGoblins

Who called Jesus of Nazareth the "Christ"?
Wasnt it he himself?

arthra

The Jews await the Messiah, the Christians the return of Christ, the Moslems the Mahdi, the Buddhists the fifth Buddha, the Zoroastrians Shah Bahram, the Hindoos the reincarnation of Krishna, and the Atheists - a better social organization! Baha'o'llah represents all these, and thus destroys the rivalries and the enmities of the different religions; reconciles them in their primitive purity, and frees them from the corruption of dogmas and rites.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. vii)

Know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but, rather, signifieth the One promised to come after Him.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 137)

In accepting Bahá'u'lláh you have accepted Christ in His appearance as the Father, as He Himself so clearly foretold.

(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 10)

Regarding the Bab

Important as these differences are, both sects agree, however, in expecting a twofold Manifestation. The shi'ahs look for the Qá'im, who is to come in the fulness of time, and also for the return of the Imam Husayn. The sunnis await the appearance of the Mihdi and also "the return of Jesus Christ." When, at the beginning of his Mission, the Báb, continuing the tradition of the shi'ahs, proclaimed His function under the double title of, first, the Qá'im and, second, the Gate, or Báb, some of the Muhammadans misunderstood the latter reference. They imagined His meaning to be that He was a fifth Gate In succession to Abu'l-Hasan-'Ali.

His true meaning, however, as He himself clearly announced, was very different. He was the Qá'im; but the Qá'im, though a High Prophet, stood in relation to a succeeding and greater Manifestation as did John the Baptist to the Christ. He was the Forerunner of One yet more mighty than Himself. He was to decrease; that Mighty One was to increase. And as John the Baptist had been the Herald or Gate of the Christ, so was the Báb the Herald or Gate of Bahá'u'lláh.

(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. xxx)

InvestigateTruth

That's not true, He wrote the Tablet to Christians which is directed to All Christians




He fulfilled ALL the Prophecies.

Prior to Manifestation of Baha'u'llah, the New Name of the Promised One (Baha) was unknown, fulfilling the Prophecy in Revelation:

19:12 "....and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

BruceDLimber

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iconodule I will believe in what Christ said, that HE will return. And to return he must come again, not another Christ.

What you ignore (in addition to each Divine Messenger's being the spiritual return of all the previous ones and the fact that Jesus the man won't return as that personage) is that both the Jewish and Christian scriptures promise--in multiple locations--that the Spirit will have a new name!

Peace, :-)

Bruce