On the Resurrection... - Page 3

InvestigateTruth · 10-14-2010, 06:44 PM

“The religion of God is the promoter of truth, the founder of science and knowledge, it is full of goodwill for learned men; it is the civilizer of mankind, the discoverer of the secrets of nature, and the enlightener of the horizons of the world.”

“He (Manifestations) must establish human education—that is to say, he must educate intelligence and thought in such a way that they may attain complete development, so that knowledge and science may increase, and the reality of things, the mysteries of beings and the properties of existence may be discovered; that, day by day, instructions, inventions and institutions may be improved; and from things perceptible to the senses conclusions as to intellectual things may be deduced.”
For example:

“During the Middle Ages, while Europe was in the lowest depths of barbarism, the Arab peoples were superior to the other nations of the earth in learning, in the arts, mathematics, civilization, government and other sciences. The Enlightener and Educator of these Arab tribes, and the Founder of the civilization and perfections of humanity among these different races, was an illiterate Man, Muhammad. Was this illustrious Man a thorough Educator or not? A just judgment is necessary.”

“Now consider, in this great century which is the cycle of Bahá’u’lláh, what progress science and knowledge have made, how many secrets of existence have been discovered, how many great inventions have been brought to light and are day by day multiplying in number. Before long, material science and learning, as well as the knowledge of God, will make such progress and will show forth such wonders that the beholders will be amazed.”-- AbdulBaha

"See how, in this day, the scope of sciences and arts hath widened out, and what wondrous technical advances have been made, and to what a high degree the mind’s powers have increased, and what stupendous inventions have appeared.
This age is indeed as a hundred other ages: should ye gather the yield of a hundred ages, and set that against the accumulated product of our times, the yield of this one era will prove greater than that of a hundred gone before. Take ye, for an example, the sum total of all the books that were ever written in ages past, and compare that with the books and treatises that our era hath produced: these books, written in our day alone, far and away exceed the total number of volumes that have been written down the ages. See how powerful is the influence exerted by the Day-Star of the world upon the inner essence of all created things!
But alas, a thousand times alas! The eyes see it not, the ears are deaf, and the hearts and minds are oblivious of this supreme bestowal. Strive ye then, with all your hearts and souls, to awaken those who slumber, to cause the blind to see, and the dead to rise."
AbdulBaha

"Now the new age is here and creation is reborn. Humanity hath taken on new life. The autumn hath gone by, and the reviving spring is here. All things are now made new. Arts and industries have been reborn, there are new discoveries in science, and there are new inventions; even the details of human affairs, such as dress and personal effects—even weapons—all these have likewise been renewed. The laws and procedures of every government have been revised. Renewal is the order of the day.
And all this newness hath its source in the fresh outpourings of wondrous grace and favour from the Lord of the Kingdom, which have renewed the world. The people, therefore, must be set completely free from their old patterns of thought, that all their attention may be focused upon these new principles, for these are the light of this time and the very spirit of this age.
Unless these Teachings are effectively spread among the people, until the old ways, the old concepts, are gone and forgotten, this world of being will find no peace, nor will it reflect the perfections of the Heavenly Kingdom. Strive ye with all your hearts to make the heedless conscious, to waken those who sleep, to bring knowledge to the ignorant, to make the blind to see, the deaf to hear, and restore the dead to life."

Clex19 · 10-14-2010, 07:45 PM

I just found this very interesting quote by Shoghi Effendi:

Quote:

"What science calls a virgin birth we do not associate with that of Jesus Christ, which we believe to have been a miracle and a sign of His Prophethood. In this matter we are in entire agreement with the most orthodox church views."

- From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours: Messages to Alaska

First, I would like to apologize to everyone, including Orthodox. I ignorantly stated my own opinions by using 'we' instead of 'I'. From now on, I plan to only answer a question that relates to beliefs if I can find a quote from the Writings to support my answer. I have incalculable gratitude for God helping me find this quote. This has been a very humbling experience for me, and I'm glad to have learned that the Writings have supreme authority at an early age in my life.

Second, comments about the quote, anyone?

InvestigateTruth · 10-15-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clex19

Second, comments about the quote, anyone?

Well, Abdulbaha in Some answered questions confirms that:

"In the Qur’án it is said: “And We sent Our Spirit unto her, and He appeared unto her in the shape of a perfect man,”† meaning that the Holy Spirit took the likeness of the human form, as an image is produced in a mirror, and he addressed Mary."

Do you think we should take this literal:

"the Holy Spirit took the likeness of the human form, as an image is produced in a mirror, and he addressed Mary"
I think it really remains a mystery as Shoghi Effendi calls it 'Miracle'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox

Did the Holy spirit have any part? if you believe that the virgin mary was a transvestite and conceived naturally the Holy spirit had no part.

I only said, it's not impossible to say that Mary's body had the capability of having both sperm and eggs internally. I didn't say, I believe that or not. Just sharing thoughts.

arthra · 10-16-2010, 06:11 AM

Under the topic of resurrection I came across this video from the "Naked Archaeologist" a fairly popular show on the History Channel..

Jesus Family Tomb: Ascension

Simcha Jacobovici of course is not a Baha'i but his programs raise some of the same issues we've been discussing.

cire perdue · 10-18-2010, 03:41 PM

I find it very interesting to be reminded that Paul specifically describes an earthly body and a spiritual body. It would seem to me that Paul had no problems accepting a spiritual ressurection. The point of Christianity at that time was that there was life after death, not the bodily ressurection. That changed the hearts of men to believe in life after death, not to believe that the physical body went to heaven.

cire perdue · 10-18-2010, 05:26 PM

We don't reject miracles, we see them mostly as not literal, but it does not mean that miracles can't happen that way. We don't believe in a Phrophet because of His miracles, we believe in Their Words because Their Words are of God. So you are saying that God could not cause a virgin birth in a way that you could not comprehend? If there were no virgin birth, Jesus would still be the Word. That is the point, not the miracle, though apparently it happened.

tonyfish58 · 10-27-2010, 12:00 AM

I think a quote from another thread on this forum deserves to be posted on this topic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grampa Joel

I find the reference to "THE" resurrection a little confusing. The Bible contains "many" resurrection stories.

For example, in the Old Testament there's a story of a widow's son who was resurrected by Elijah. (1 Kings 17:17-22) Elsewhere, there are stories of a Schunammite's son and an unnamed man who were resurrected by Elishah. (2 Kings 4:32-53 & 13:20)

In the New Testament, Jairus' daughter, another widow's son and Lazarus were resurrected by Jesus. (Mt 9:23-25, Luke 7:11-15 & John 11:43) Dorcas was resurrected by Peter (Acts 9:36-40) and Eutychus was resurrected by Paul. (Acts 20:9)

In the Gospel of Matthew we are told that, at the time of Jesus' resurrection, "many bodies of the saints... came out of the graves... went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." -Matthew 27:52 (KJV) Why is there no mention of this incredible event in Jewish history? How many resurrected Jewish saints were there walking around Jerusalem at this time? Hundreds? Thousands? What did the resurrected "saints" do in the "holy city" and where did they go when they left? Or did they leave? Did they die? Or could they still be there... living somewhere today in modern Jerusalem? Was this a literal resurrection? Or was this a "heavenly vision" too? No one knows for certain, the Bible doesn't say.

In the story of Jesus' transfiguration, it says that Elijah and Moses appeared with him on the mountainside. Moses obviously must have been resurrected from the dead too, because, although he had died twelve centuries before... there he was, alive and talking with Jesus. When the disciples saw these two other men of God, they asked Jesus whether they should prepare "three booths (or shelters) here, one for You and one for Moses and one for Elijah"? This, of course, would not have been necessary, since Moses and Elijah were never physically there. Jesus later told them to "Tell no one the vision (ORAMA= supernatural vision)". -Matthew 17:9 (RSV)

Apparently the appearance of Moses and Elijah with Jesus on the mountainside was so realistic that even eyewitnesses couldn't see that it was a "vision". Jesus had to explain it to them before they could understand.

In the story where Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead, he offers this additional insight into his teachings on resurrection. Jesus said:
"I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." -John 11:25

Was Jesus speaking literally here, in terms of physical bodies? If he was, then this would mean that all the believers up until that time who had died had already been physically raised from the dead. It also would mean that hundreds of millions of "living" Christians since that time never really died and are still living somewhere here on the earth today!

When teachings such as these are interpreted literally, they become little more than "mythology." However, when they are understood spiritually, they help us to "understand" the inner reality of resurrection as Peter and Paul originally taught it.

Paul said that resurrection was essential to Christian belief --- and he defined what resurrection was.

Paul clearly taught regarding resurrection that, like a seed, what "is sown a physical body... is raised a spiritual body" (a body made of spirit). Paul also said that when Jesus died, he became "a life giving spirit". And Peter couldn't have been more explicit when he wrote that when Christ "died in the flesh" he was resurrected "in the spirit". This is what Christianity originally taught ----- before the Romans & the Greeks got ahold of it.

Cheers Tony

10-14-2010, 06:44 PM	#81
InvestigateTruth Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Canada Posts: 396	“The religion of God is the promoter of truth, the founder of science and knowledge, it is full of goodwill for learned men; it is the civilizer of mankind, the discoverer of the secrets of nature, and the enlightener of the horizons of the world.” “He (Manifestations) must establish human education—that is to say, he must educate intelligence and thought in such a way that they may attain complete development, so that knowledge and science may increase, and the reality of things, the mysteries of beings and the properties of existence may be discovered; that, day by day, instructions, inventions and institutions may be improved; and from things perceptible to the senses conclusions as to intellectual things may be deduced.” For example: “During the Middle Ages, while Europe was in the lowest depths of barbarism, the Arab peoples were superior to the other nations of the earth in learning, in the arts, mathematics, civilization, government and other sciences. The Enlightener and Educator of these Arab tribes, and the Founder of the civilization and perfections of humanity among these different races, was an illiterate Man, Muhammad. Was this illustrious Man a thorough Educator or not? A just judgment is necessary.” “Now consider, in this great century which is the cycle of Bahá’u’lláh, what progress science and knowledge have made, how many secrets of existence have been discovered, how many great inventions have been brought to light and are day by day multiplying in number. Before long, material science and learning, as well as the knowledge of God, will make such progress and will show forth such wonders that the beholders will be amazed.”-- AbdulBaha "See how, in this day, the scope of sciences and arts hath widened out, and what wondrous technical advances have been made, and to what a high degree the mind’s powers have increased, and what stupendous inventions have appeared. This age is indeed as a hundred other ages: should ye gather the yield of a hundred ages, and set that against the accumulated product of our times, the yield of this one era will prove greater than that of a hundred gone before. Take ye, for an example, the sum total of all the books that were ever written in ages past, and compare that with the books and treatises that our era hath produced: these books, written in our day alone, far and away exceed the total number of volumes that have been written down the ages. See how powerful is the influence exerted by the Day-Star of the world upon the inner essence of all created things! But alas, a thousand times alas! The eyes see it not, the ears are deaf, and the hearts and minds are oblivious of this supreme bestowal. Strive ye then, with all your hearts and souls, to awaken those who slumber, to cause the blind to see, and the dead to rise." AbdulBaha "Now the new age is here and creation is reborn. Humanity hath taken on new life. The autumn hath gone by, and the reviving spring is here. All things are now made new. Arts and industries have been reborn, there are new discoveries in science, and there are new inventions; even the details of human affairs, such as dress and personal effects—even weapons—all these have likewise been renewed. The laws and procedures of every government have been revised. Renewal is the order of the day. And all this newness hath its source in the fresh outpourings of wondrous grace and favour from the Lord of the Kingdom, which have renewed the world. The people, therefore, must be set completely free from their old patterns of thought, that all their attention may be focused upon these new principles, for these are the light of this time and the very spirit of this age. Unless these Teachings are effectively spread among the people, until the old ways, the old concepts, are gone and forgotten, this world of being will find no peace, nor will it reflect the perfections of the Heavenly Kingdom. Strive ye with all your hearts to make the heedless conscious, to waken those who sleep, to bring knowledge to the ignorant, to make the blind to see, the deaf to hear, and restore the dead to life." Last edited by InvestigateTruth; 10-14-2010 at 06:57 PM.

10-18-2010, 03:41 PM	#85
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,618	St Paul I find it very interesting to be reminded that Paul specifically describes an earthly body and a spiritual body. It would seem to me that Paul had no problems accepting a spiritual ressurection. The point of Christianity at that time was that there was life after death, not the bodily ressurection. That changed the hearts of men to believe in life after death, not to believe that the physical body went to heaven.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

10-16-2010, 06:11 AM	#84
arthra Senior Member Joined: Jun 2006 From: California Posts: 3,063	Under the topic of resurrection I came across this video from the "Naked Archaeologist" a fairly popular show on the History Channel.. Jesus Family Tomb: Ascension Simcha Jacobovici of course is not a Baha'i but his programs raise some of the same issues we've been discussing.

10-18-2010, 05:26 PM	#86
cire perdue Senior Member Joined: Sep 2010 From: Louisiana Posts: 1,618	We don't reject miracles, we see them mostly as not literal, but it does not mean that miracles can't happen that way. We don't believe in a Phrophet because of His miracles, we believe in Their Words because Their Words are of God. So you are saying that God could not cause a virgin birth in a way that you could not comprehend? If there were no virgin birth, Jesus would still be the Word. That is the point, not the miracle, though apparently it happened.