reuben

Being married to a Baha'i, I have a done a lot of reading of the various writings. My wife has taken me to several firesides since she is unable to answer my questions, but I have run into the wall of the doctrine that God is beyond our ability to know, except in the person of a Manifestation. Since I was born in 1944 that means that I missed Him by about a hundred years. Regardless of the dispensation doctrine, I am not comfortable about making a religion about anyone whether it be Buddha, Jesus, or Baha'u'lla, and waiting for about 850 years is not possible. After all, Jesus did say (in Aramaic) something to the effect of - no man may come unto the Father, or know God, but by me. Christians have made a religion of that, but the fact is that Jesus said that while he was a living Manifestation here in the world. Although the grace he had to help people to know God undoubtedly was passed on to his disciples, over time the distortions of religion dissipated that. That was why Muhammed and Baha'u'lla were sent.

Now, my wife tells me that he enjoined people to meditate, but did not teach a method. His writings are proof of his own mystical experience. Clearly he emmanated a presence that was extraordinary, but it seems that Baha'is don't believe that they can experience God.

Here are a few quotes that I have gleaned from the tablets:

Lawh-i-Hikmat
Know thou … that the Word of God is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate.

Kitáb-i-Íqán
On their tongue the mention of God hath become an empty name; in their midst His Holy Word a dead letter. Such is the sway of their desires, that the lamp of conscience and reason hath been quenched in their hearts, and this although the fingers of divine power have unlocked the portals of the knowledge of God, and the light of divine knowledge and heavenly grace hath illumined and inspired the essence of all created things, in such wise that in each and every thing a door of knowledge hath been opened, and within every atom traces of the sun hath been made manifest. And yet, in spite of all these manifold revelations of divine knowledge, which have encompassed the world, they still vainly imagine the door of knowledge to be closed, and the showers of mercy to be stilled. Clinging unto idle fancy, they have strayed far from the `Urvatuíl-Vuthqá of divine knowledge. Their hearts seem not to be inclined to knowledge and the door thereof, neither think they of its manifestations, inasmuch as in idle fancy they have found the door that leadeth unto earthly riches, whereas in the manifestation of the Revealer of knowledge they find naught but the call to self-sacrifice. No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth.

Kalimat-i-Firdawsiyyih
By holding fast unto names they deprive themselves of the inner reality and by clinging to vain imaginings they are kept back from the Dayspring of heavenly signs.

Bayan: God’s intention is to make Himself known to you, that You may not remain ignorant of Him in anything.

Commentary:
The Word of God transcends limitations because it is infinite and has no beginning or end, even as God is infinite. It is all-pervasive and as such it is within us and we are within its unity. The senses cannot perceive it, yet by turning the senses within, it can be experienced. This “Word” is not a word that can be uttered, written, imagined, or thought, yet it can be known. The Word of God is singular, even as God is one. The true name of God is this Word of God. God is not separate from His Holy Name. The Word of God is the true Greatest Name and being conscious of it bestows the true Greatest Peace. The Word of God is not a concept or belief, it is absolute reality. The Word of God is not in any scripture, nor is it any scripture. The Holy Name of God is not the name or title of any avatar, manifestation, or prophet of God, but its revelation to others and preparation of humanity for that knowledge has always been their service. The Word is the primordial essence of all creation. In it alone is perfect unity.

Those who believe that God is beyond knowing prevent themselves from experiencing what He would reveal of His infinity. They limit God’s ability to reveal Himself by limiting themselves. Those who cannot accept that God can reveal Himself through a messenger, fail to recognize the messenger as such. Those who believe “the door of knowledge to be closed” close the door themselves. Those who become attached to their concepts and beliefs about messengers of the past, fail to recognize the messenger(s) of the present. Their religions cloud their perception. Their concepts limit their ability to perceive. “No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth,” even his concepts of God.

The Baha'i Faith is a very positive force in the world, but it does not satisfy the need to know God. All the beautiful words describing the glory of God do not satisfy the yearning to know God that they create. Contemplation of the writings is no true meditation. Meditation is not what you think or imagine.

arthra

Welcome Reuben to the Baha'i Forum ... It's truly evidence of divine providence that you posted here as we are usually so swamped with pornography so welcoem anyway..

I also wanted to applaud you for reading the Writings and trying to make some sense out of them for yourself.. Baha'is believe in a principle you may be aware of called independent investigation of truth and not just accepting something because everyone else does around you.

Now your concern about experiencing God is a very important one and one that I think will serve to motivate you to further explore that issue! You know that the purpose of our existence is to know and worship God? It is clear in our Short Obligatory Prayer:

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

2 There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.


It is also true that we Baha'is believe that the ultimate progress a human soul can make is to come into the presence of God...

I believe an excerpt from "Ten Days in the Light of Akka" explains this through something Abdul-Baha said:

Then He continued, “Do everything in your power to help the poor and needy. Serve God in this way. The poor are the trust of God. Give the Message to every listening soul. Give them whatever they can take of it. In Persia there was a man who could not read or write, yet he was the cause of guidance to many great men in this Truth by his pure love of God. If you will turn to God, He will turn to you and assist you. He will make you eloquent. He will make you irresistible by His Wisdom. The tongue speaks from the heart, and if you are sincere, God will speak for you. Help and assist others to see this Truth as you do. Be their guide and helper. This Message is vital to young and old. In it the young must make more progress and bring forth more fruit than the old, just as young and vigorous trees yield the most fruit to the gardener. Christ said, 'Ye shall know the tree by its fruits,' meaning whether the fruits be good or bad, much or little. Those who are born of the Spirit have all the Divine qualities of growth. Without these qualities they are nothing but mere men and women; they are not spiritually alive; they are without the power of growth. Christ said they were 'dead.' Let all your thoughts be upon this so that the believers and others will know that you have the Spiritual Spring within your soul and have attained a newness of life. This is complete happiness, the only Peace. After awhile you will realize that you have been in the Presence of the Blessed Perfection. You are always in the Presence of God. Open the windows of your soul so His Presence may be within you.”

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/books/tendays/development.html

One reason I think we say people can only know God through His Manifestation is that many in the spiritual life have adopted a form of solipsism, that is they believe they are the final revelation themselves and arrogate to themselves enlightenment when all that they have done is basically think that after a little progress they are now enlightened and need strive no more..and then they in turn seek disciples and followers. It can becoem an "ego" thing and is a dangerous pitfall and inhibiter of further spiritual growth.


Personally I think one of the reasons Baha'is do not have a particular form of meditation is a good thing as we Baha'is come from all religions...some have Buddhist backgrounds or have traditions of Buddhist meditation...some are Hindu and some Christian and some Sufi, etc. etc. So we are not exclusive when it comes to a particular style or form of meditation. It does not meean though we don't meditate...actually we are encouraged to do so but not to the extremes found in some religions. Moderation governs Baha'i spiritual life as it does our clothing and other things... We are also free to avail ourselves of any school of meditation and derive what benefits we can from that!

And now I must go...but please extend my heart felt greetings to your wife and loved ones..

- Art:wink

reuben

Being new at this forum, I posted a "quick reply" not knowing that it wouldn't be posted. That, not being in the spirit of a forum as there are other readers, requires this reply:

The most pertinent part of the previous post is:
"One reason I think we say people can only know God through His Manifestation is that many in the spiritual life have adopted a form of solipsism, that is they believe they are the final revelation themselves and arrogate to themselves enlightenment when all that they have done is basically think that after a little progress they are now enlightened and need strive no more .. and then they in turn seek disciples and followers. It can become an "ego" thing and is a dangerous pitfall and inhibiter of further spiritual growth."

I had to look up solipsism, not being as erudite as arthra, and agree since historically there have been many who, after catching a glimpse of only the “hindmost parts”, have believed themselves to have become enlightened. This has been most evident amongst Gnostics, Sufis, and Hindus. The last of whom after gaining some spiritual powers, or siddhis, set themselves up as gurus. That does not mean that there haven’t been or aren’t true gurus. For example the founder of the Sikh religion, Guru Nanak, seems to have been a Sat Guru. As it is, the Sikhs only have the Guru Granth Sahib to guide them now. In Shi’a Islam, the expectation of the Imam Madhi, or Qa’im, has set the stage for many claimants. Now, I am speaking of those who were sincere, not those who did so for power.

The original Sheikhi doctrine was that there is always a living intermediary between God, the spiritual Imam, and the world. This intermediary, or gate, did not necessarily have to be a Prophet or Manifestation, but the Báb and Baha’u’lla, were from a higher plane on par with Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. Indeed, Baha’i’s were warned not to expect another of that rank for a millennium. That does not preclude the advent of those who have the grace of God to be of service in lesser capacities, just as Abdul Baha was known as the Master. God is not limited by our beliefs or concepts. Neither Muhammad nor 'Ali claimed to be other than Messenger or Imam respctively. The Báb and Baha’u’lla made it clear that they were Mirrors for the infinite that could not be limited to a mundane manifestation. That the Báb and Baha’u’lla were contemporaries shows that God is not limited to just one at a time or place. The Jain, Mahavir, and the Buddha may have been contemporaries. So, it comes down to the tenet that, “ye shall know them by their fruit.”

Religious scholars themselves have been the greatest opponents of true spiritual teachers. They have held on to their interpretations, vain imaginations, and traditions and failed to recognize the truth when it was plainly presented. And they are they who are held in high esteem in Islamic cultures.

I would appreciate replies that address the specific Baha’i writings quoted in my first post. In these are profoundly clear statements, and not my own. I may have erred in giving my take on them in that first post rather than waiting for replies, but would welcome to any reply that addresses my comments without spinning off into irrelevant and idle dispute.

arthra

Thanks Reuben for your post and sorry you last message wasn't posted through the "quick reply"..

You seem very well informed...

The only thing I would add is that we Baha'is believe mankind is never left alone without divine guidance... that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are no longer on this earth doesn't mean we are without guidance.

Abdul-Baha was appointed by Baha'u'llah as you probably know to be His Interpretor and successor as Center of the Faith. Abdul-Baha appointed Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian and as you probably know today we have the Universal House of Justice which is our Supreme Institution.

So in our view there has been continuous divine guidance.

Now as to your request to address the specific writings you've quoted you must know that I do not myself have a station to interpret these for you as Abdul-Baha Himself is the Interpretor of His Father's Writings and after Him the beloved Guardian Shoghi Effendi...

But I have found some exceprts that concern the Word of God that you've cited and so here they are:

Therefore if the nations of the world forsake imitations and investigate the reality underlying the revealed Word of God they will agree and become reconciled. For reality is one and not multiple.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 226)

Universal Peace is assured by Bahá'u'lláh as a fundamental accomplishment of the religion of God; that peace shall prevail among nations, governments and peoples, among religions, races and all conditions of mankind. This is one of the special characteristics of the Word of God revealed in this Manifestation.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)

When we read the Book of God the faculty of comprehension by which we form conclusions is reason. Reason is mind. If we are not endowed with perfect reason, how can we comprehend the meanings of the Word of God? Therefore human reason, as already pointed out, is by its very nature finite and faulty in conclusions. It cannot surround the Reality Itself, the Infinite Word. Inasmuch as the source of traditions and interpretations is human reason, and human reason is faulty, how can we depend upon its findings for real knowledge?

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 253)

Likewise in the spiritual realm of intelligence and idealism there must be a center of illumination, and that center is the everlasting, ever-shining Sun, the Word of God. Its lights are the lights of reality which have shone upon humanity, illumining the realm of thought and morals, conferring the bounties of the divine world upon man. These lights are the cause of the education of souls and the source of the enlightenment of hearts, sending forth in effulgent radiance the message of the glad-tidings of the kingdom of God. In brief, the moral and ethical world and the world of spiritual regeneration are dependent for their progressive being upon that heavenly center of illumination. It gives forth the light of religion* and bestows the life of the spirit, imbues humanity with archetypal virtues and confers eternal splendors. This Sun of Reality, this center of effulgences is the prophet or Manifestation of God. Just as the phenomenal sun shines upon the material world producing life and growth, likewise the spiritual or prophetic Sun confers illumination upon the human world of thought and intelligence, and unless it rose upon the horizon of human existence the kingdom of man would become dark and extinguished.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 254)

Also and let me close with this:

You may be aware that we Baha'is in principle are not to be spinning off into "irrelevant and idle dispute," which is the reason we have the Interpretations of Abdul- Baha and defer to the Beloved Guardian.

Again my best wishes to you and your loved ones..

- Art

shathaway

Whenever persons gather together in prayerful discussion of the issues at hand, the guidance of the almighty is also present.

Sincerely,
Steven J. Hathaway

Jafar

Reuben,

This is a great question. If you read Baha'i Scripture you will find that it both says that you can be in the presense of God, or know God, and in other places it says that you cannot know God.

In fact, Baha'u'llah says that our purpose is to "know Thee and to love Thee." Whereas in other places He says that the door of knowledge is forever closed.

I'm sure there are many meanings behind this, but one that I have found is something that science has recently found in the 20th century: relativity. Knowledge, for humans, is relative, both scientific and religious (as Shoghi Effendi says). That is, we have knowledge of the qualities of objects but not of the essences of objects. In the same way, we have knowledge of the qualities of God, but not the direct essense of God - we have relative knowledge of God, not absolute.

Not only does this solve the contradiction, but it aligns itself with what is happening in physics right now and creates a new foundation for religion in which religion be gaurded from dogma and division. Science and religion, finally, are going to prove to the world that no one has the right to claim absolute knowledge and thus absolute power. We all worship in our relative ways the One, Absolute, Divine and Unknowable God - in that limited way we all strive forever to know and love that God as individuals and as a group, no one member of which has authoritative power over any other: we are all created from the same dust and we will all return unto it.

Regarding meditation, the is no one way to do it. Just as there is not only one type of food to eat to feed your physical body, there is not only one way to meditate to feed your soul. All the different people on the planet have developed ways to meditate and commune with God, and I think we should study them all! In addition, the Baha'i Scriptures have revealed many insights and understandings which will support and reinvigorate these disciplines.

Orthodox

Christians made no religion, Christ established the religion, the church

Livindesert

And his second comming has established his Faith the Baha'i Faith :tongue

Orthodox

Debatable. I will just say I believe that to be wrong.

LarryK32

I don't want to seem militant but I don't believe a book of the New Testament was written by Jesus himself, but rather someone else, a minimum of 20 years after Jesus died.
I'm not saying the New Testament is wrong, but I do believe what I've said to be true.

Orthodox

Well the church (nor anyone for that matter) has claimed that Christ wrote the NT, Christ didn't write anything, he taught orally to his disciples whom recorded it in the New testament. The New testament is trusted by Bahais is it not?

LarryK32

Some things must be seen as symbolism. Walking on water, turning water to wine, etc.
“If religion is found contrary to the laws of science, then, it is nothing more than mere superstitions.” Abdul-Baha

Orthodox

Lol, thats a naturalistic claim which denies the power of God. If God's prophets cannot do miracles they cannot prove themselves. This is the whole foundation upon which Christianity is built, the ressurection which proved Jesus from God.

God is able to break natural laws he inserted into humanity. I'm sorry Abdul is completely wrong.

FrankMc

I don't take Baha'u'llah's injunction to be an enforced limitation. I take it to be a statement of fact - that God, in his essence is unknowable.
There is a parallel in scientific knowledge - that the universe is expanding into infinite space. Infinite space. Spend even ten seconds thinking about that. Try to visualise it. Try, moreover, to apprehend it.
You can't. It's beyond the scope if the human mind to apprehend infinity.
How much more so, then, with the creator of that infinity?
The reality of God is infinitely exalted above comprehension. What is within our scope as human beings, is to perceive the reflection of attributes of the divine in the world around us.

Pollwr

There seems to be a lot of emphasis of miracles by some people as proof of the Power of God. I have total faith in the Power of God. A miracle, I believe, could happen if He willed it, however, I see no evidence of a miracle such as Jesus walking on water about 2000 years ago. How could there be? Whether He did or not, only those who were there will be sure. I do see, in Christianity, a miracle today and that is the influence and strength of the Christian message - I believe this could not have happened without the Power of God.

I think that this can be seen in many religions and, likewise, the unstoppable Power of Bahá'ú'llah's revelation is starting to exhurt influence in the world.

Orthodox

The evidence for Jesus walking on water is the gospels. You take them as metaphore and thus reject the miracles. But it is still evidence nontheless. Its interesting how you think christianity a religion, which opposes what bahai say is a miracle. Its like saying that a cultist is a miracle worker because he brought the entire world under a lie yet they all love each other.

pheonixduprese

Are... are you refering to baha'i faith as a cult?

Orthodox

Actually if you read the context, it would be refferring to christianity as a cult.

Clex19

Miracles are only valid proofs to those who directly witness them. Even if miracles are recorded, the recordings don't prove that the miracles actually occurred. Personally, I believe in some miracles, but one who has never witnessed a miracle could argue that the miracle never happened. If a miracle is written down, that alone is not evidence of a miracle. If a miracle is told to someone orally, one could argue that the teller could have simply lied. If a picture or video is taken of the miracle, one could argue that the photo or video was edited with photo or video editing software. My point is that miracles are overrated and shouldn't be the basis for faith.

Orthodox

Well Christianity has always had its basis of faith on the ressurection of Jesus, if it didn't happen Christianity is fruitless as Paul puts it. Miracles are not overrated but signs by which we see God in this physical plane. The greatest miracle (IE) the ressurection was not something to be taken lightly and the early church knew this. But that being said Clex, can you give a natural explanation for the empty tomb?

pheonixduprese

Ex. Hey, did you know that my dog recently spoke fluent Japanese despite never being to japan? It was totally awesome!

That's a miracle, because it was written down? No.

Orthodox

No body is going to believe you. And you seem to misunderstand why I think, why the entire church has thought since the apostles these miracles are valid. Because these men suffered for proclaiming a risen Christ, they died for their beliefs. Does it make them right? No, but It certaintly doesn't mean they were liars. So unless you are going to die for that belief you cannot reasonably equate the two. Thats just silly.

pheonixduprese

Hmm, well, the moment you find someone that wants to kill me for saying that my dog speaks Japanese, call me. :wink

Orthodox

Pheonix, if cornered to the point of death. Lets say Mario holds a gun to you head and tells you, you can still live if you recant your story. Will you recant it?

Clex19

Christ's body may have been taken away by His followers in an attempt to preserve it as much as possible, but who knows? The Báb's body was stolen and hidden so that it was preserved. I think 'Abdu'l-Bahá gives a good explanation of Christ's resurrection in Some Answered Questions:

"Question
What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?

Answer
The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: "For I came down from heaven"; and also in verse 42 we find: "And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Observe that it is said, "The Son of man is in heaven," while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.

Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it."


At any rate, whether Christ was physically resurrected or not, Christianity, in my opinion, certainly is not and would not have been fruitless. Should not a religion be considered fruitful or fruitless based more upon its contributions and teachings to humanity than its miracles which only a rare few were blessed to bear witness?

pheonixduprese

No, because if he's willing to kill me over that, that would be insane. I would laugh as he shot my brains out.

Orthodox

I reject bahu'a'llahs explanation. But no, the desciples would not have taken the body away for one very good reason. There was no need for them to do so. The Messiah they had put their hopes into had died and they fled, Peter watched a distance and saw his master die. They were disheartened, felt betrayed they were in no mood to steal a body away.

That being said. Bahu'a'llah is wrong. The clergy have always understood what the ressurection was. The gospels have been clear as to what the ressurection was. Luke has Christ eat food, a spirit does not eat food. Mathew has the desciples touch his feet. Jesus asks the desciples of touch him in John and Mark tells us the tomb was empty. These are not the markings of symbolizm but a very real ressurection. But that being said your prophet commits a naturalistic philosophy assuming all that exists in natural therefore nothing can contradict the natural world. Sorry to break it to him but GOd is a supernatural being and he can break the laws of nature he established for his own purposes. Theres nothing wrong with this, its just what God can do.

So please don't take offence at my harsh nature against this guy you bahai quote. I am offended he tells me the clergy CHRIST INSTITUTED were wrong. the Arrogance.

Orthodox

So you would die for it? well you obviously stick to what you believe. Much like the desciples. My point is that the desciples did not die for a lie when they said they saw the risen Christ. They died for truth.

pheonixduprese

I see your point.

Orthodox

That being said, the apostles are not recorded as having had their faith renewed after three days. In fact is was forty odd so days later that they are recorded with receiving the Holy spirit Christ promised them as the comforter that they finally got up and preached the word of Jesus and proclaimed his ressurection (literally). So Bahu'a'llahs account does not match up with scripture exactly.

That being said Bahu'a'llahs conclusion from the previous verses the son of man is in heave does not exactly add up to a metaphorical ressurection. I'm not sure how anyone could read that conclusiuon unless one wants to metaphorize the entire gospels but then how does one say the apostles really taught anything or if they existed?

Clex19

@Orthodox No offense taken. But Bahá'ís do believe that some miracles do occur and that spiritual laws transcend physical laws. As to clergy, I believe that they, unlike Christ or Bahá'u'lláh, are not perfect and have no special authority. Not only are clergy subject to error just as much as I am, but everyone should have the right to indepently investigate and search for the truth themselves.

Orthodox

Actually they must have a special authority. As Christ gave the apostles an authority. None could join the church at the time of the apostles without the apostles consent or someone appointed by the apostles. and the apostles had desciples which carried on this authority in the name of what we call bishops and priests. Not only that, but Christ's promises to protect the church from the gates of hades. If the church has believed in heresy and falsehood for 2000 years I don't think that means Christ kept his promise. But then don't you see, if God can violate the natural laws, that violates his very own argument that God cannot contradict science, thus it means he picks and chooses what he wants? Or is this just your own view?

Livindesert

Not really Baha'u'llah being the second coming has the authority to tell us the full meaning of scripture.

Clex19

Science is not included with spiritual laws. Physical laws contradicting other physical laws of course does not make sense. For example, the miracle of Christ walking on water defies physics because humans lack enough surface area to walk on water, despite water's unusually high surface tension. The miracle of the 750 soldiers all shooting at the Báb and Anís and only cutting the ropes that bound them without hurting them does not defy physics, nor any other branch of science. It was uncacluably improbable but nonetheless possible.

Clex19

I think that miracles that are to be taken literally should be defined as events that are extremely unlikely to happen but by God's grace they did happen. Not as events that contradict natural laws. Victory in the face of insanely unlikely odds is good enough for me. Besides, as you said before Orthodox, if two sides go against each other, one side must be wrong. The miracle of Christ walking on water goes against science, so at least one must be wrong. I am not aware of any solid evidence to support the idea that Christ actually walked on water, but the argument against it does have evidence. But believe what you want; everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. I respect yours, although I disagree with it. Peace.

Orthodox

They were not unlikely at all because God can choose to do miracles thus they are completely likely. the defintion of miracle is an act of God. Well in Christianity. Perhaps miracle in bahai means naturally occuring phenomom not from God but beneficial.

And you make an interesting claim Clex. Provide all primary evidence of this account. Not just from bahai perspective but from government authorities who no doubt recorded this. I want to check the validity of this miracle.

And yes my original point still stands. Either God can contradict the laws of nature to make a miracle, there being nothing wrong with this unless you believe God can't intervene with what he has created and perform miracles. Or he doesn't period. So you can't have it both ways. Miracles can't happen or won't because God is more deistic.

Livindesert

Of the Bab's surviving the 750 soliders volley we actually have a western observer.

Orthodox

INteresting, i will have to research the validity of these claims. But I see no miracle within this account as of yet.

LittleBuddha

Are we expected to believe everything that is written in the New Testament.
When the church was organised the Pope and his cardinals were the ones who chose what was to be included.
Many of the gnostic gospels were thrown out because the official church did not like what was said. Mary Magdalene played a bigger part in the church than was recognised. In every religion there are always contradictions and we must accept that will always be so. This is true in all religions. I myself am a buddist.
The Buddha was not a prophet but a teacher who told his followers that they should ask questions and not just accept what he said.
How many of us know GOD. We are born live our lifes and try to understand what it all means. Try to have a good life, try to be good and not harm anyone.
Be kind and helpfull to our friends and neighbours.
If we can do this then we have done well. How many of us truly know God.
Perhaps this is the best we can do. And I think this is enough

arthra

Baha'is do believe miracles are possible but cannot be regarded as proofs as they are most significant to those who are directly affected and after that it is hear-say.. We tend to interpret the NT spiritually/symbolically rather than literally.

Mary Magdalene has a special place or station for us more so than with say many Christians..

'Abdu'l-Bahá turned with a look of great joy and said with an impressive gesture: "The bounty and power of God is limitless for each human soul. Consider what was the quickening power of the Christ when He was on earth. Look at His disciples! They were poor and uncultured men. Out of the rough fisherman He made the great Peter, and out of the poor village girl of Magdala He made one who is a power in all the world today. Many queens have reigned who are remembered by their dates in history, and nothing more is known of them. But Mary the Magdalene is greater than them all. It was she whose love strengthened the disciples when their faith was failing. What she did for the world cannot be measured. See what a divine power was enkindled in her by the power of God!"

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 88)

There were some miracles attributed to the Bab and Baha'u'llah but again these are not considered proofs and are not say a requirement to believe.

What Baha'is believe I would suggest is that there are Manifestations of God and we include Gautama Buddha, that have appeared down through the ages and that have raised the consciousness of humanity to new plateaus of civilization.