arthra

Baha'is recognize and extol the institution of marriage.. however there are some exceptional aspects to Baha'i marriage that are not well known.

To have a Baha'i marriage you need the approval of all living parents of the prospective spouses. Even if you're sixty years old and your parent is eighty they still need to approve of the marriage. This practise eliminates the grounds for complaints from the proverbial "mother-in-law" and actually makles sense I think because new families today often need the support of their inlaws anyway. So there is no eloping among Baha'is.

Once everyone approves of the marriage the couple goes to their nearest Local Spiritual Assembly and applies to have the Baha'i marriage. TWo witnesses approved by the Assembly need to be present to witness the vows of the couple.

The vow consists of the words "We will all verily abide by the Will of God" in front of the approved witnesses. Once that's done and all the civil laws requirements for marriage have been met the marriage is recognized.

A Baha'i marriage can occur just about anywhere and all you need are the people being married and the designated witnesses. We also allow for interfaith marriages where say one of the people marrying is non-Baha'i.. If say a Baha'i were to marry a Christian and the Christian wants a church ceremonmy the Baha'i "ceremony" is held on the same day in another location but not mixed in with the Christian ceremony say in the church.

Also, the Baha'i marriage can be simple and free.. there are no charges for it and if the couple wishes they could rent an expensive hall but it's up to them. So this way an expensive marriage ceremony can be avoided which helps the new family.

Here are some important selections from the Baha'i Writings that apply to marriage:

Marriage, among the mass of the people, is a physical bond, and this union can only be temporary, since it is foredoomed to a physical separation at the close.

Among the people of Baha, however, marriage must be a union of the body and of the spirit as well, for here both husband and wife are aglow with the same wine, both are enamoured of the same matchless Face, both live and move through the same spirit, both are illumined by the same glory. This connection between them is a spiritual one, hence it is a bond that will abide forever. Likewise do they enjoy strong and lasting ties in the physical world as well, for if the marriage is based both on the spirit and the body, that union is a true one, hence it will endure. If, however, the bond is physical and nothing more, it is sure to be only temporary, and must inexorably end in separation.

When, therefore, the people of Baha undertake to marry, the union must be a true relationship, a spiritual coming together as well as a physical one, so that throughout every phase of life, and in all the worlds of God, their union will endure; for this real oneness is a gleaming out of the love of God.(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 441)

Athanasius

Thanks for your Information, arthra! But let me ask a question: As the Bahá'í Faith does not share the Christian concept of sacraments (?) are civil marriages equivalent to Bahá'í marriages. What if a married person converts to Bahá'í faith? Does he or she have to make up for it after his or her conversion?

Pollwr

For those people who have become Bahá'ís after marriage, in all the communities I have lived in, those marriages are not treated any differently to "Bahá'í" marriages.

I supose, exactly what a marriage is or becomes is down to the two parties involved. There is potential for an everlasting spiritual bond and spiritual union or just a physical union that ends with death or before in any relationship.

I don't think that marriage is just something done on the wedding day. It is a process that needs constant work and commitment. It can be the greatest of bonds among people. It could be that a couple becoming Bahá'ís learn more about the potential for growth and this enriches and changes their marriage or maybe they won't. They may even have been very spiritually aware people who have been able to forge such a bond already - we don't have a monopoly on this as Bahá'is.

arthra

People who become Baha'is after their marriage do not have to make up for anything.. They are married. They could have had a Christain marrriage or a civil marriage.. doesn't matter.

For Baha'is though they must have the Baha'i marriage and meet the requirements of Baha'i marriage and also fulfill any civil requirements for marriage ... so civil marriage alone would not be considered a Baha'i marriage because there is more to it..

Survivor

Hi All,

I need some help!...i need to know if a bahai marries a non-bahai (orthodox religion) can their children be baptized if the Bahai partner remains Bahai and does not get baptized?...if so, are there any restrictions?....please help me answer this question.

arthra

The Baha'i partner in a marriage with a non-Baha'i does not give up the right of the children to be raised in the Faith.. We would allow them to be exposed to different religions of course and at the age of accountability they would choose for themselves..

I found this in Compilations:

The future christening of the ... child should present no problem, for the Bahá'í parent should have no objection to the baptism of his child if the Catholic mother wishes it. Similarly, the use of champagne upon that *254* occasion is a matter which she is free to undertake, but of course the Bahá'ís would not partake of alcoholic beverages.

(7 December 1977 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 253)

Pollwr

As a Bahá'í married to a Catholic, my children were Christened. I see no problem with this. People gathered and said prayers for them which is a good thing.

A small difference of opinion arose, however, when they were of an age to be confirmed, as my spouse saw it. I insisted they had to wait until they were 15 when they would be free to make such a commitment and it would be entirely their choice.

duriamadan

What if the person you are going to marry is an atheist and is not comfortable with the vow's of "We will all verily abide by the will of God" because he does not believe in God. Does it not become a meaningless ritual if the said party is just saying those words to please the requirements of future spouse's religious requirements so that the other person wont loose their voting rights? Can just the Bahai person say those vows or the other person has to say words that are meaningless to him and only being forced into saying them for formality?

whine of astonsihment

Have you considered the wisdom of marrying someone who does not believe in God and is uncomfortable with taking the marriage vow? Negotiating a successful relationship with a spouse is unquestionably about compromise and people with uncompromising natures do not generally make very good marriage partners 'after the honeymoon'. But is this something you think is even worthy of compromise on your part? Is the Baha'i law of marital fidelity also worthy of compromise in his or your view?

Many, perhaps even most differences of opinions and beliefs between marital partners are negotiable and can be resolved through proper consultation and compromise, with or without professional help, but some matters are 'deal breakers'. If your religion is important enough to you that you want to continue to follow it and teach it to your children, you might want to consider whether this will be possible, practical, or realistic with this particular individual. I would suggest some professional premarital counseling at least, as a preventive measure against future conflicts that you might not yet have considered or adequately discussed.

It is one thing to marry someone who follows a different religion or perhaps even no particular religion but whose mind and heart are sufficiently open to acceptance and respect of your beliefs enough to repeat a phrase as simple as the marriage vow. It's not like you're asking him to undergo ritualistic genital mutilation (Judaism) or risk drowning in a baptismal font (Christianity). If this appears to be such 'a big deal' for him now you might want to ask yourself what else he objects to compromising on. Today's 'stimulating intellectual debates' can turn into tomorrow's 'irreconcilable differences'.

There are no 'meaningless rituals' in this faith my friend. The phrase 'we will all verily abide by the will of God' should mean a great deal to you if you are a Baha'i. And so is a 'true unity of heart and mind'. Abdul-Baha states that "our love, our obedience, our unity, must not be by confession but of reality!" If you were my daughter and asking for my consent to marry this person, these are probably questions I would want answered prior to giving consent. What would your parents really think about your marrying someone with a "philosophy of uncompromising disbelief"? Have you asked them?

If these things are not important to you, perhaps the easiest and most sensible route to 'true marital unity' might be for you to resign from the faith and just have a simple civil ceremony. If that's not an easy decision for you, then premarital counseling might be a good place to start figuring out how to best proceed.

Best of luck!:wub

arthra

Well I certainly agree with the last post..

If it appears the Baha'i marriage "ceremony" is just a formality.. that's pretty sad isn't it?

Maybe some consultation with the Assembly that will be involved in approving this marriage would help.. :wink

LarryK32

I wouldn't consider male circumcision mutilation as it is permitted in Baha'i. Female circumcision certainly is however.

whine of astonsihment

It's OK with me if it's OK with you cuz I don't got a penis.
Circumcision performed by a physician as a medical procedure is a little different from the way it's done as a Jewish religious ritual and for a different reason. It's not permitted as a religious rite by Baha'is - and Orthodox Christians too, perhaps all Christians? Don't know - I was actually being more facetious than anything else in order to make a completely different point.....:wink

LarryK32

No. There really is no religious significance. And its not necessary in Christianity(Protestantism in general, at least. idk about others).

And before I was Baha'i I went to a Baptist Church (never really identified with Christianity) I remember the preacher dunking someones head in the Holy Water.... Baptist preachers tend to shout and go off on rants and I end up losing where we were in the Bible o_o lol

arthra

Well uhhh Larry.. Don't most of those Baptists fully immerse?

I could tell you a story I heard about a baptism but it would probably not be too suitable here on the forum.. If interested send me a private messsage and I'll fill ya in! :wink

tonyfish58

I can give you a reflection from experience :lol

I remarried 5 years ago to an atheist :lol

Yes my partner was not comfortable with the Baha'i vows and can you imagine how hard it was to get the letter of approval from the parents.

The fact my partner went through with this is the real issue. It means at least they saw that I considered it important and they did not want me to deny my Faith. So in doing so we were able to be united - The end result a good thing not a bad thing and by no means meaningless

I explained to my partner that in saying the verse "We will all verily abide by the will of God" It was up to my partner to visualize what that meant to them, not for me to judge them by what they declare! So I never have to ask my partner what they thought when they said that verse, it is between them and.....well what meaning they put to the verse. Even Atheists are allowed to be married to a Baha'i.

My partner only went for the Baha'i ceremony. They were not forced to do it, but chose to do it.

Regards Tony

silvermoon1170

I have not yet formally declared myself Baha'i but am very close to it. However, I am concerned about the marriage issue. I am 40, my mother has passed but I have not had a relationship with my father for years due to the abuse I suffered at his hands in the past. I am concerned that if I become Baha'i and want to marry a Baha'i, then I won't be allowed to marry since I do not have contact with him, nor will I. IMO since he did not uphold his responsibility as a parent to protect me and care for me as stated in the Baha'i Faith, I shouldn't have to get his permission to marry, should I? I am very concerned and confused about this point in the Faith. Can anyone help?? Thanks in advance!

arthra

You would need to consult with your Local Spiritual Assembly about this..

If you can show that the parent cannot be reached and efforts were made to locate them then that would be acceptable.. from what I know about it..

As far as this person being an abusive parent to you that also should be shared with the Assembly.. They can then advise you...

Lunitik

With regards to interfaith marriages, I believe I read in the Aqdas that the ceremonies needn't be separate, provided the simple obligations of the Baha'i marriage are observed?

(I read about this in the version of the Kitab-i-Aqdas on bahaireference.org however it is currently broken for me, refusing to show the texts in English. I am only able to access the version on reference.bahai.org which is substantially different)

Also, within the same text, I believe I read that the couple must pay a fee to the House of Justice pertaining to the marriage?

Below is what reference.bahai.org has to say about this:
"j. The Dowry:
i. Marriage is conditioned on payment of a dowry.
ii. The dowry is fixed at 19 mithqáls of pure gold for city-dwellers, and 19 mithqáls of silver for village-dwellers, depending on the permanent residence of the husband, and not of the wife.
iii. It is forbidden to pay more than 95 mithqáls.
iv. It is preferable that a man content himself with the payment of 19 mithqáls of silver.
v. If the full payment of dowry is not possible the issue of a promissory note is permissible."

Lunitik

Also, what is the value of a mithqal in real money? :huh

Lunitik

Also, don't points (ii) and (iv) appear to disagree with each other? I forget what the full text has to say on the matter accurately, but surely that can't be right... why would it be preferable for a man to be content with 19 thingers of silver if he is required to pay it in gold?

Also, I don't understand why someone would pay more than the requirement directly for the marriage - there is nothing stopping him from donating outside of that context? It says nothing about the more being payed equating to further blessings for the marriage - in fact it says that the partnership should be a spiritual bond likened to the relationship they have with God. Materialism - such as money or gold - surely has no bearing on the strength of a marriage :blink

bwb

At present the Kitab-i-Aqdas dowry law is not binding on Baha'is outside of the Middle East, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Laws from the Kitab-i-Aqdas Not Yet Binding

Baha'i Library Forum - View topic - Universal application of all the laws

silvermoon1170

Thank you so much! It is a relief to know that I may be able to follow my heart to Baha'i without having to worry about the marriage issue after all!

Lunitik

Thank you very much for this clarification

bwb

Baha'i teachings are explicitly against arranged marriages, by the way:

"85. As for the question regarding marriage under the Law of God: first thou must choose one who is pleasing to thee, and then the matter is subject to the consent of father and mother. Before thou makest thy choice, they have no right to interfere.

86. Bahá'í marriage is the commitment of the two parties one to the other, and their mutual attachment of mind and heart. Each must, however, exercise the utmost care to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of the other, that the binding covenant between them may be a tie that will endure forever. Their purpose must be this: to become loving companions and comrades and at one with each other for time and eternity....

The true marriage of Bahá'ís is this, that husband and wife should be united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God. This is Bahá'í marriage."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 117)

bwb

There are some exceptions to the Baha'i parental consent law:


1244. Circumstances Under Which Parental Consent for Bahá'í Marriage Not Required

"In reply to your letter about the problem of... who is unable to locate the natural father of her fiance we are glad to offer you the following guidance:

"The only circumstances under which parental consent for Bahá'í marriage is not required are the following:

1. If the parent is dead.

2. If the parent has absented himself to the degree that he can be adjudged legally dead.

3. If the parent is certified insane and therefore legally incompetent to give consent

4. If the parent is a Covenant-breaker.

5. It is possible under Bahá'í Law, in certain very rare cases, to recognize that a state of disownment exists. All such cases should be referred to the Universal House of Justice.

"The problem therefore is reduced to the simple question of whether your National Assembly accepts that Miss...'s father-in-law elect cannot be traced and therefore may, to your satisfaction, be presumed to be legally dead. You should of course ascertain that Miss ... has made every effort possible to trace her fiance's father."

(Letter from the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Alaska, May 30, 1971)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 371)

"Whenever the law of the land or the agreement of adoption prohibits future contact between an adopted child and its natural parents, the Bahá'í law does not require the child to seek the consent of those parents to its marriage.

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 141)

Other exceptions that I know of:
Your father is a man who raped your mother.
A parent sexually abused you or failed to prevent you from being sexually abused.

arthra

Silvermoon wrote:

Thank you so much! It is a relief to know that I may be able to follow my heart to Baha'i without having to worry about the marriage issue after all!

Welcome to the Forum and glad to hear it!

arthra

I think in practise when we've had marriages of Baha'is with non-Baha'is in our local community we've had the Baha'i ceremony elsewhere on the same day but it is possible to have a Baha'i ceremony in the non-Baha'i place of worship:

When a Bahá'í Marries a Non-Bahá'í both Ceremonies can be Held in the Place of Worship of other Religion, if Requested, and Provided that...

"In response to your mail of 6 February 1986 we have been instructed by the Universal House of Justice to send the following clarifications:

- When two Bahá'ís are marrying, the wedding ceremony should not be held in the place of worship of another, nor should the forms of the marriage of other religions be added to the simple Bahá'í ceremony.

- When a Bahá'í is marrying a non-Bahá'í, and the religious wedding ceremony of the non-Bahá'í partner is to be held in addition to the Bahá'í ceremony, both ceremonies may, if requested, be held in the place of worship of the other religion provided that:

- Equal respect is accorded to both ceremonies. In other words, the Bahá'í ceremony which is basically so simple, should not be regarded as a mere formal adjunct to the ceremony of the other religion.

- The two ceremonies are clearly distinct. In other words, they should not be commingled into one combined ceremony."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, February 26, 1986)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 387)

Lunitik

Ahh, I fully apologize, I had not recalled this statement.

jenesabby

When you decide to find a marriage therapist, you should make sure that you find a licensed marriage family therapist. The reason that you want to have someone who is licensed in family and marriage therapy is because the therapy not only is needed for you and your spouse, but the children as well. The therapist needs to be a licensed professional who can counsel the children, you and your friends through these difficult times. When your family and friends see that your marriage is hitting a rocky patch, they become worried and they begin to feel stress over the whole situation. With marriage counseling, those stresses and problems can be repaired for the exterior individuals of your marriage.

cire perdue

That tone seems rather harsh. People are where they are. I would never give advice to resign from the Faith. Who knows if the Baha'i is not attracted to the atheist b/c that person may become a Baha'i. Writing does come over more harshly than speaking consultation. Because of that factor maybe we should be more tactful. I think it is hard for us who have fast fingers to do that. I know I'm guilty of that as well. We need to love the unloveable, we need to look at our own actions first of all, all of them.

I'm a somewhat reformed jerk. I can do both sides: jerk, loving, and needing great patience and understanding. Baha'is can do that last part very well.

pearl

I am a bahai girl who wans to get married to a muslim man.He is a muslim by name only coz he never followed or practise the religion at all.His family members are very keen having a bahai marriage before our nikah(the muslim wedding that is a must in malaysia if u are getting married to a muslim).I have to convert to muslim as it is the law in malaysia.So how should conduct my marriage as i am very keen in having a bahai wedding ceremony.pls help me.I am bahai n i will be a bahai.

arthra

While there is no restrictions on Baha'is marrying non-Baha'is as long as they (1) have their parents' permission and (2) the simple vow to recite "We will all verily abide by the Will of God" is followed and (3) witnessed by designated persons acceptable to the Local Spiritual Assembly... We would be unable to forsake our own religion in a marriage as you write above:

I have to convert to muslim as it is the law in malaysia

The other point is that in marrying a non-Baha'i we do not forfeit the right of the children to be raised as Baha'is.. now allowing them to be exposed to other religions is alright..also at the age of maturity they have the right to choose what religion they follow anyway.

I would urge you both to consult with your nearest Local Spiritual Assembly and get what guidance you can from them.

Here's some further guidance:

"With reference to your question regarding mixed marriages, that is to say between Bahá'ís and non-Bahá'ís; in all such cases the believer must insist that the Bahá'í ceremony should, as far as he is concerned, be performed in its entirety, but should also give full freedom to the other contracting party to carry out the non- Bahá'í rite or ceremony be it Muslim, Christian or otherwise, provided the latter does not invalidate the Bahá'í marriage act. This is the general principle which your N.S.A. should explain to the friends."

(From letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of Iraq, April 16, 1936) 385

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 384)

"In all cases of marriage of Bahá'ís to followers of other religions the Bahá'í has two essential obligations as regards the children:

a. He must not educate or assume a vow to educate the children of the marriage in a religion other than his own.

b. He must do whatever he can to provide for the training of the children in the Bahá'í teachings.


From letter of the Universal House of Justice to the National
Spiritual Assembly of the United States, May 10, 1966

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 388)

carmel

Greetings! I was very excited to find this forum. I am a Baha'i and I am married to a non-Baha'i who was raised as a Baptist but who is very open minded when it comes to religion. In any case, we just had a beautiful baby girl and my husband has agreed to let me raise her with Baha'i teachings and of course allow her to choose her path at 15-the age of maturity. My question is this: my Mother in law would like to have our child christened in Baptist church. I am not entirely comfortable with it but I would like to make her happy as well. What are the Baha'i views on Christian Christening/Baptism for an infant who will be raised with Baha'i views and teachings? Please help:-)

tonyfish58

Welcome Carmel - Arthra has posted this above

The future christening of the ... child should present no problem, for the Bahá'í parent should have no objection to the baptism of his child if the Catholic mother wishes it. Similarly, the use of champagne upon that *254* occasion is a matter which she is free to undertake, but of course the Bahá'ís would not partake of alcoholic beverages.

(7 December 1977 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 253)

Regards Tony

carmel

Thank you so much for your response Tonyfish58. I was very concerned and I think the only aspect I will inquire about is just the language that is used during the ceremony and of course I would like to make sure that I am not making any false statements or testimonies as to the raising of our little girl.

tonyfish58

Carmel - That's the way to go

The great thing is because of the unity of the Prophets we can always profess our Love and Faith in a particular one as required or even if not required. In this case it will be Christ and you can safely profess love and devotion to Christ.

The line to draw is in professing to church dogmas. I remember attending an Assembly of God meeting which was very full on, with speaking in tongues and full on declarations in Christ is my only way. It would go around in a circle and each would have a go at declaring their belief and doing the tongue talking.

When it got to me I was able to say the unity prayer and state that as a Baha'i I had a very deep and lasting love for Christ. When they pushed me to say Christ was my only Savior I was compelled to explain that I had a wider belief than this. When they continued to push I was able to say thank you for inviting me to your meeting but it was time I had to leave as the line was crossed. They were not going to let up until I made that statement

Its up to you where you draw that line, I think it is very important not to make a statement that is not based on Baha'i Principals.

P/S The pastor of that meeting is still a very good friend 20 years on, we have just agreed to let the subject go

Regards Tony

Pollwr

I am married to a Catholic and had my children Christened. I was very fortunate that the priest, also the guy who did our Catholic wedding ceremony, was a very reasonable guy. I was honest about my beliefs with him and with my husband. There was a lot that was recited together by the parents and godparents. He said to me "just say the bits you want to" so I did. I made the promises that were reasobable from my point of view and kept my mouth shut when things I did not wish to promise came up.

InvestigateTruth

In the Baha'i Faith is it prefered to marry a believer?

tonyfish58

For compatibility it would be a lot easier But the Faith say choose someone that is compatible and pleasing to you - they do not have to be Baha'is.

I say this because I married an Atheist

I have a great marriage, but it is a little frustrating that we can not speak about God and a lot frustrating that to be truly united both Souls must be joined in the love of God - I live in hope

Cheers Tony

neda

Question:
Can Civil Marriage be done prior to the Bahai marriage ceremony?