earthling155

I often struggle with my ambition to earn material prosperity and the Baha'i principle of detachment from everything except God.

I would like to start a thread that I can come back to often and consult about this important personal and social and economic development issue. I agree that American culture is way too materialistic. And that we need religion and spirituality to be the center of our society, not some private issue people are afraid to discuss in public because of religious prejudice.

Not that we should be discussing religion in inappropriate ways. I'm just saying that religion should be the primary motivation for all human beings, not shoved out of our public square into a diverse assortment of antagonistic sects and denominations.

I also think that the USA is a great civilization. And while I agree that the aggressive competition and selfish ambition inherent in much of the enlightenment philosophy is anti-religious and ... a false doctrine, a vain imagination. Secular humanism is a half truth. All religions are humanist. The only thing that is not sacred, is human perversity.

I also realize that the enlightenment philosophers were a small minority of western culture and civilization. Unfortunately, our educational establishment has put the philosophers on a pedestal and banished the Prophets of God. So now we have materialistic hedonism run amok.

I want to be a Baha'i more than anything. I've also suffered extreme poverty, violence, drug abuse and sexual immorality during my life. I'm working hard to improve all these character defects. I've been free from abusing drugs for 19 years today. I am far more calm, gentle, peaceful and serene than I was when I was kicking the drug addiction. My sexuality is fairly healthy. And I am striving to be a spiritual capitalist entrepreneur.

Like I said, before this post became such a long story, I just want to start a conversation. Mainly about financial and business affairs, social and economic development in this advanced industrial society.

What can we Baha'is do about poverty, addiction and violence here in the USA, other advanced economies, or anywhere else for that matter. What is the right attitude about self improvement, personal financial success and business and all that.

Allah'u'Abha
Bob

arthra

Bob,

Thamks for the great post and welcome!

Your comment:

What can we Baha'is do about poverty, addiction and violence here in the USA

Is a great question.

You are your self perhaps as you've described someone who has weathered the storm and come out of addiction and violence and so know a lot about that..

Just a thought comes to mind that being Baha'i in itself resolves a lot of these problems..

When it comes to poverty though there are some systemic issues that go beyond just helping others out I think..and here we need to appreciate the outline offered by Abdul-Baha that there needs to be a common store house or say insurance that can assist people in a community administered by the Baha'i community itself. This sort of thing was done by some groups during the depression and on other occasions..

The arrangements of the circumstances of the people must be such that poverty shall disappear, and that every one as far as possible, according to his position and rank, shall be comfortable. Whilst the nobles and others in high rank are in easy circumstances, the poor also should be able to get their daily food and not be brought to the extremities of hunger.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 29)


For example, it will be as if the rich inhabitants of a city should say, "It is neither just nor lawful that we should possess great wealth while there is abject poverty in this community," and then willingly give their wealth to the poor, retaining only as much as will enable them to live comfortably.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 239)

earthling155

I agree that we need to have a social welfare system. What I'm having trouble understanding is ... is it alright for Baha'is to teach poor people about capitalism and how to succeed in our capitalist economy.

One time during a conversation with another person, who thought capitalism was all bad, we looked up capital in Ocean or some other Baha'i data base. Abdu'l Baha is the only one who even mentions it and he was usually explaining the responsibilities of the capitalists.

So, while I agree that capitalism has some serious defects that need to be addressed, mainly the selfish ambition inherent in it. I also realize it is the most productive economy ever created by man.

Baha'u'llah says that if something is good for humanity, then we should do that. He says that we should do what is profitable for ourselves and everyone else.

The spread of capitalist democracy around the world is a good thing. It is progress. The United Nations is the Lessor Peace, that is progress toward our ultimate goal of the Most Great Peace.

Allah'u'Abha
Bob

earthling155

I'll just keep teaching people to invest in yourself first. Invest in assets. Assets put money into your bank account, liabilities take money out of your bank account. For example, your house can be an asset or a liability. If you rent it out and the income from the rent is greater than the expenses of maintaining the house, then it is an asset. Otherwise, it is a liability.

After World War 2 all the factories in the world were in the USA. Every other industrialized nation had been leveled during the war. So the USA, especially the Midwestern USA, has been the industrial powerhouse of the world economy.

Today, America's factories are old, the factories in Germany, Japan, China and India, etc., are new. Big business will not need as many employees because of automation. The jobs they do supply will also be spread out around the world. And there is an explosively growing supply of well educated workers.

So, in order for the American people to maintain, let alone improve, the standard of living we inherited from our parents, we are going to have to supplement our income. We're going to have to learn the laws and principals of the science of social and economic development. And these laws and principals can be applied throughout human civilization. The whole world economy is booming. There is more wealth, more widespread now, than ever before in history.

I'm writing about increasing our material prosperity on the practical level here in the advanced industrial society. Not some far away project to teach people in poor nations how to survive. Not that that isn't important, it is very important. I'm just talking about practical ways that we can improve the quality of life in America, for the millions of working poor people and the swarms of homeless people wandering our streets.

Human civilization is whatever we, the people of earth, make it. I understand that Baha'u'llah has taught us to improve human civilization. To strive to make the world a better place. Not to complain about how mean, oppressive and materialistic our present civilization is, but to teach our present civilization the laws and principles of the Baha'i Faith, both directly and indirectly.

We teach the Baha'i faith directly when we tell people about Baha'u'llah. We teach it indirectly when we encourage people to practice spiritual principals in the various practical aspects of our life, such as our career and our business.

Allah'u'Abha
Bob

Clex19

I think that the first and most important step is to improve spiritually. Spiritual progress inevitably brings some material progress, including social, economic, political, and technological progress. I'm hoping to be a doctor someday, and to put this in a medical metaphor, I think that material problems are symptoms with spiritual causes. For a disease to be cured, one must focus on the cause of the disease, rather than the symptoms alone. Bahá'u'lláh is the Physician Who has prescribed perfect remedies for humanity that deal with the spiritual causes of material symptoms.

tonyfish58

Best way to look at it is that Work is Worship.......

"It is made incumbent on every one of you to engage in some occupation, such as arts, trades, and the like. We have made this—your occupation—identical with the worship of God, the True One. Reflect, O people, upon the Mercy of God and upon His favors, then thank Him in mornings and evenings."

(Bahá’u’lláh: Bahá’í World Faith, p. 195)
(Programmer's note: 'Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas', p. 26)

So we do our chosen job to the best of our ability which is rewarded with a pay level and the bounty that it is worship.

After we earn this money it is then up to us how we then use it for the betterment of this world

We then have writings to say that we are not denied the luxuries of life and no harm can come to us if we pursue some of them - We have Huqúqu’lláh—The Right of God to cover this (Link Below)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Huqúqu’lláh—The Right of God

It is up to each individual to find the balance between earnings and what you spend on the Faith, towards others and on oneself

Cheers tony

earthling155

Ok.

But what practical use do the spiritual principles of the Baha'i Faith have to someone living in the mission? I can tell you from first hand experience that we can practice the Baha'i Faith in the mission.

What I'm saying in this thread, is that my extreme poverty has contributed to me having a pretty strong desire to increase my material prosperity. Is that attitude contrary to Baha'u'llah's instruction to be detached from the material world?

I don't want to be attached to anything except God. I just want to be reasonably comfortable during my life on earth. Is that a bad attitude?

And I have read all of Baha'u'llah's writings that have been translated into English. I've studied all the religions of the world. I don't want to be like the people who asked Muhammad about the details of some real estate deal, and He said they were one dead person buying property from another dead person.

Baha'u'llah also says we should not be clamoring on about the faith in the market place, either. So, I don't want to separate my material affairs from my spiritual affairs, just for unity's sake and having a holistic perspective of social and economic development. But I do want to have a good and right attitude about both material and spiritual prosperity, including the most appropriate balance and relationship between them, and according to Baha'u'llah's wishes.

Peace be with you all.

tonyfish58

Here is a good study done on this subject - The Link follows some brief extracts.

Wealth and Finances: A Bahá’í Perspective
William G. Huitt, Ph.D.
March, 1998
Material Wealth

As important as is spiritual wealth, material wealth is also fundamental to one’s progress and development during the part of our lives we are living in a material form. Bahá’u’lláh reveals:

The first Taraz and the first effulgence which hath dawned from the horizon of the Mother Book is that man should know his own self and recognize that which leadeth unto loftiness or lowliness, glory or abasement, wealth or poverty. Having attained the stage of fulfilment and reached his maturity, man standeth in need of wealth, and such wealth as he acquireth through crafts or professions is commendable and praiseworthy in the estimation of men of wisdom, and especially in the eyes of servants who dedicate themselves to the education of the world and to the edification of its peoples (Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 34 35).

‘Abdu’l-Bahá affirms this importance of material wealth in the following statement:

It should not be imagined that the writer's earlier remarks constitute a denunciation of wealth or a commendation of poverty. Wealth is praiseworthy in the highest degree, if it is acquired by an individual's own efforts and the grace of God, in commerce, agriculture, art and industry, and if it be expended for philanthropic purposes. Above all, if a judicious and resourceful individual should initiate measures which would universally enrich the masses of the people, there could be no undertaking greater than this, and it would rank in the sight of God as the supreme achievement, for such a benefactor would supply the needs and insure the comfort and well being of a great multitude. Wealth is most commendable, provided the entire population is wealthy. If, however, a few have inordinate riches while the rest are impoverished, and no fruit or benefit accrues from that wealth, then it is only a liability to its possessor. If, on the other hand, it is expended for the promotion of knowledge, the founding of elementary and other schools, the encouragement of art and industry, the training of orphans and the poor in brief, if it is dedicated to the welfare of society its possessor will stand out before God and man as the most excellent of all who live on earth and will be accounted as one of the people of paradise (Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 24 25).

It is clear, therefore, that it is not the acquisition of wealth for personal benefit that is recommended, but the use of wealth to assist others. In fact, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá stated that

In this great Cause the light of guidance is shining and radiant. Bahá’u’lláh has even said that occupation and labor are devotion. All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service. But the energies of the heart must not be attached to these things; the soul must not be completely occupied with them. Though the mind is busy, the heart must be attracted toward the Kingdom of God in order that the virtues of humanity may be attained from every direction and source (Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 187).

In addition, the striving for excellence in the area of material wealth should not come between a human being and God:

Say: Pride not yourselves on earthly riches ye possess. Reflect upon your end and upon the recompense for your works that hath been ordained in the Book of God, the Exalted, the Mighty. Blessed is the rich man whom earthly possessions have been powerless to hinder from turning unto God, the Lord of all names. Verily he is accounted among the most distinguished of men before God, the Gracious, the All-Knowing (Bahá’u’lláh, Compilations, Vol I (Huqúqu’lláh), p. 496).


http://www.edpsycinteractive.org/rel...tar/wealth.doc

Cheers Tony

earthling155

Thank you tonyfish58

I've read your post and I'll investigate the link later when I have more time.

earthling155

Do whatever is best for everyone. Everyone wins in business, otherwise it is corruption, not business. Add value to our universal common wealth.

Mind your own business, not someone else's. Be a free agent entrepreneur, instead of an employee.

Essence of GOD

i wish mind exploration was a job

earthling155

Essence of God

Exploring the mind is a career for many. The science of mind is a very active field. Many, such as the Dalai Lama do it for spiritual reasons. Others, such as neuro-scientists are investigating such interesting aspects of human consciousness as neuro-plasticity, ie., we can teach our mind to heal our brain in many circumstances.

I detect an arrogant attitude in the name you chose, I could be wrong. Not even Baha'u'llah claims to be the Essence of God. The Essence of God is unapproachable, unknowable. No finite mind can possibly comprehend the infinite Essence of God. The All Powerful Supreme Being is the uncreated Creator. The Source of every religion. He is generating all of natural and spiritual reality at all times, with infinitely less effort than it takes us to breathe.

Essence of GOD

hahaha, looks like my wish came true.
as for my user name, arrogance iam guilty of, but not in this case.
Essence of God is the biggest mystery that every time i even try to think about gives me pleasure, thats why i chose it, so if someone sees it, they would try to wonder about it, so they would get the pleasure i get from wondering about it.
all it was meant to do was to share my pleasure with others, which i see it did the opposite. and i apologize

earthling155

What is your wish, Essence of God?

No need to apologize. As I said, I could be wrong. You may have a different understanding of that phrase than I do.

I once read a book called, The Awakening of the Human Spirit, by Hazrat Inayat Khan, from India. A great book. One of the first examples of spiritual literature that I've read, outside of Christianity.

In it he describes his understanding of God.

Brahmin is the Supreme Being. There are two aspects of Brahmin. The pure spiritual aspect is completely independent of and superior to the material world. Another aspect of Brahmin is that He is everything there is. There isn't anything other than Brahmin.

Atman is the Supreme Being in each individual human being. Brahmin and Atman are one and the same Supreme Being.

Anyway, that is how I remember that particular part of the story I read almost 20 years ago.

I found no contradiction between that description of God and Christianity. I eventually came to believe that I am God. That everything and everyone are the one true God.

Until I read Baha'u'llah's Revelation of the Word of God, and in it He says that that is a misunderstanding of the truth. I think He called it anthropomorphism or something like that. I believe that everything Baha'u'llah says is the truth. Him saying it makes it true. He has sovereignty over all of natural and spiritual reality. The truth is whatever Baha'u'llah says it is.

Baha'u'llah also mentions that if we seek Him sincerely, then we will find Him standing in the center of our being.

So, just like the paradox between the description of the station of Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran was beyond my ability to understand, and I could accept that. So this idea that God is everything is incorrect, and yet if we seek Him we'll find Him within ourselves, is just... Well, like I said, the truth is whatever Baha'u'llah says the truth is.

Another way that I've thought about this recently, in relation to secular humanism, is that the only thing that is not sacred is human perversity. Secular humanism is a half truth, the wolf in sheep's clothing. All religion is humanist. God doesn't need religion, human beings do. Religion is for the benefit of human beings.

Secular is not religious, or other than religious. The selfish ambition and competition is a distortion of human nature. It's a psychological and spiritual disorder that has contributed to the downfall of every civilization in the history of earth.

Thank God, Baha'u'llah has founded a universal and divine civilization that will last for at least 500,000 years. At that time scale, Homo-Sapiens will have evolved by natural selection, into a different species by then.

Thank God Jesus saved us!
There really is only One Almighty God, and Muhammad is His Apostle.
Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for today.

Essence of GOD

You who seek God apart, apart,
The thing you seek, thou art, thou art;
Why then search for what you have not lost?
Searching for what’s not lost,you distrust!
Thou art the letters, names and the book
Prophets and angels your word undertook;
Just sit still, this futile search let go
You are the house, master and foe
Essence and form, celestial and from earth
Always eternal, in death and at birth.
If you want to see the beloved’s face
Polish the mirror, gaze into that space
In these truths, the secrets you weave
Are your punishments, yourselves deceive?
He, is the world Emperor
Seekers of his grace are behind which door?
This graceful King showers you with gifts
Unbeknownst to you, your souls uplifts.

earthling155

According to Baha'u'llah there is an Almighty God, Who is completely independent of His creation.

And so, how do we practice spirituality in our material affairs. Be fair. Oppression is the absence of justice. Practice justice in your own career, your own business.

Trustworthiness is another vitally important attribute of human nature in general, as well as in our business and our careers.

Do whatever is best for everyone, not just yourself.

I'm thinking we'll develop millions of small, family scale, businesses of all kinds. Family farms, family grocery stores, an infinite variety of family businesses throughout human civilization. Our civil laws and our moral values will support and defend this small scale free enterprise.

We'll still have big businesses. They provide certain things that small business can't supply, such as the Internet, trucks, airplanes, skyscrapers, etc. They will just be cooperative, service oriented businesses that wouldn't dream of interfering in the free enterprise of any human being anywhere. And if they did, the civil authorities would come to the defense of the oppressed in all cases, whether large or small, rich or poor.

So practice moral values and spiritual principles in your own career and your own business, in order to advance our universal and divine civilization founded by Baha'u'llah.

earthling155

I'm still working on developing a holistic healing and teaching system in order to deliver a variety of solutions for poverty, addiction, crime and violence, etc.

Essence of GOD

interesting site
The Venus Project

arthra

To me the Faith does this rather well in itself.. and programs that foster Baha'i virtues without necessarily teaching the Faith itself overtly.

rabbanitrust.org/papers2001/ethics_and_​sed.doc

earthling155

Have you noticed the United Nations. It's a world wide federation of nations. It's booming and its the greatest civilization that has ever existed on this planet. It's the real human civilization that exists right now. And its architecture, its science, religion and culture are as advanced as any science fiction story.

earthling155

I figure that we need to make the solutions profitable. Right now the problems are profitable, and the solutions are either non-profit or the hospitals are more interested in profit than solving the problems.

How about creating a combination of 12 step program and network marketing, in which people who work their way out of poverty, addiction, crime and homelessness, help other people do the same. And make it a for profit, private enterprise.

Addiction is a lack of freedom. Free enterprise is the solution to addiction. And freedom is lawful, not lawless. Personal responsibility is an integral attribute of freedom.

The Baha'i Faith is certainly the most great solution to all the world's problems. That does not imply that we should not be working on using every available means to improve human nature and advance human civilization.

Human civilization is whatever we, the people of earth, make it. Its up to all of us, to improve human nature and advance human civilization. In fact, I think the Universal House of Justice has asked us to reach out and cooperate with all the people of earth, who are striving to improve human nature and advance human civilization.

Essence of GOD

sure if you prefer the monetary system over a resourced based economy which is our reality. no food, no life. can we eat money? i think not.

earthling155

All I know is that capitalist democracy is the most successful social and economic development system ever created by man. The Holy Bible says that God created man in His own image. That implies that man is creative.

Capitalism and democracy are man made institutions that will eventually fade away and disappear in the light of the World Order of Baha'u'llah. In the mean time, my objective is to teach people to be successful and prosperous in the present human civilization.

And yes, I do like our present human civilization. Its not perfect. We've made a lot of progress, and we have a lot of progress to make. Our cities are giant pueblos of our thriving human civilization. And there are hundreds of them, spread out all over the earth.

Money is just a tool that we use in order to facilitate trade. It is no more or less good or bad than a pair of pliers. It's what is in the human heart that is good or bad, not any material objects that we use to extend our human consciousness.

The American revolution was a civil right movement, and the USA has done more to advance the cause of human rights than any other nation in history. The United Nations is the greatest civilization that has ever existed on this planet. Its the Lessor Peace, which will inevitably evolve into the Most Great Peace.

Essence of GOD

um i dont think we even live on the same planet, im not trying to be mean or anything, but you need to WAKE UP my friend

earthling155

I am wide awake. The whole world economy is booming. There is more wealth, more widespread now than ever before in history.

The racist sedition that is so popular these days is really forbidden by Baha'u'llah. We, the people of Baha, are taught to improve human nature and civilization, not to protest or fight against it.

Everything I write is my opinion, my own personal understanding of the truth. I have no authority. I'm just an American Baha'i. I'm a patriotic American who believes in Baha'u'llah.

Thank God Jesus saved us.
There really is only one Almighty God, and Muhammad is His Apostle.
Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for now.

Allah'u'Abha

earthling155

Thank God for all the people who are struggling to help the poor and homeless. What I'm trying to do is teach the poor and homeless how to help themselves. Teaching people about business and economics will enable them to earn a living in the world the way it is.

We need more free enterprise. What I'm trying to encourage people to do, is to create their own free enterprise, rather than striving to get a job working in someone else's free enterprise. Create a culture of small scale, entrepreneurial free enterprise throughout human civilization, rather than creating more dependence on welfare and charity, big business and big government.

And creating a global culture in which a diverse assortment of small scale free enterprise can flourish is a monumental task. We have to work in an environment of giant corporations that suppress alternative solutions, strict government regulation of every detail of our lives, oppression from business and government, powerful greedy people using our social institutions to preserve special advantages and etc.

I've studied the Hindu religion and respect it very highly. The Bhagavad Gita is one of the first non Christian scriptures I ever read. The Lord Krishna is a divine Healer and Teacher. However, I believe that all men are created equal. We abolished the concept of a ruling class, or any other form of caste system, during the American revolution and I believe that was a giant leap forward in the social evolution of human nature and civilization. People progress in our society according to merit, not tenure or class or caste.

Granted. Our civilization is under attack from all sides and from the inside, as well as the outside. That's all right. The message has been delivered. The American people and the American nation have contributed to the establishment of the Lessor Peace. That interim stage in the evolution of human nature and civilization toward that Most Great Peace promised in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

earthling155

I read a little bit more of the Venus Project. In the first place, all that technology we have available today was produced by the market economy. Second, if you investigate the United Nations you will find that many of the objectives that the Venus Project proposes are already being worked on and accomplished.

For example, I live and work in Wyoming. I have seen with my own eyes that there are thousands of windmills in operation and we are building more of them as fast as we can. I also know from experience, that Wyoming is not the only place this is happening. From Canada to Mexico, thousands and thousands of windmills are already in operation in the United States. I'm sure other nations are also working on developing wind power.

I like nuclear power, both fission and fusion. It is relatively clean and it is the scientific basis of our transmutation of elements technology. We will learn how to manufacture as much of any element we need, whenever we need it. I agree that our economy will experience explosive growth, when we start spending the energy we spend competing with each other, in cooperation, service and unity in diversity instead.

arthra

I just recently came across this program of providing micro loans and thought it applies in some ways to the topic:

Kiva - Kiva Lending Team: Kiva Baha'is

whine of astonsihment

I'm all for entrepreneurship and free enterprise but self-employment is not for everyone and many jobs and professions do not easily lend themselves to it. I think education is the first line of defense against poverty, particularly as technological changes and advances are rapidly changing the needs of the labor market.

You may find some valuable guidance by studying the Baha'i writings regarding 'work as worship' and 'elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty' as they seem to be particularly related and complementary principles in this regard. It's important to know that there are some 'reciprocal responsibilities' of employers and employees mentioned such as profit sharing, etc., that you might find helpful as you develop your approach in this area.

There are spiritual principles and justice issues involved that can apply whether you're dealing with volunteer or paid service, union, management, or self-employed. While we made some good progress in social and economic justice through the advent of unions and labor legislation, nevertheless, the greed, graft, corruption, cronyism, nepotism, etc., are all still very much alive and well. Furthermore, there's been a definite devolution over the past few decades that has heavily contributed the current serious economic crises spreading through Europe and North America.

A new paradigm is emerging from all this and the more it reflects the spirit of the Baha'i teachings the faster it will resolve our problems.

"Were men to strictly observe that which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed in the Crimson Book, they could then well afford to dispense with the regulations which prevail in the world."

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 90)

earthling155

I have studied the Baha'i writings about business and social and economic development. I especially like this quote:

"Were men to strictly observe that which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed in the Crimson Book, they could then well afford to dispense with the regulations which prevail in the world."

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 90)

Thats why I say that while the United Nations is the Lessor Peace, and it is the greatest civilization that has ever existed on this planet, eventually it will fade away and disappear in the light of the Most Great Peace, the World Order of Baha'u'llah.

In the mean time, I agree that many people will benefit from better jobs, etc. I'm just saying that many of the traditional jobs are eliminated by automation, and they are spread out all over the world. There is also a generation of well educated workers coming up that dwarfs anything that has come before it.

Also, Big business supplies certain things that only big business can supply, like computers and the Internet, jet planes and sky scrapers, etc. I'm not apposed to big business. I'm just for creating millions of family businesses of all kinds and organizing our society in a way that they can thrive. And I'm focusing my effort on helping the individuals and family businesses that are struggling in our global economy.

earthling155

I am very patriotic about the United Nations and encourage everyone to investigate and cooperate with the United Nations. For example here is a UN website that makes me feel confident, that despite all our considerable problems, we are on the right path. We are making good progress toward world unity.

Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development - OECD

earthling155

My real big idea is to organize or society so that millions of home office based entrepreneurs can create their own private free enterprise. Supply real free enterprise, equal opportunity and justice for all people everywhere.

Just think about how our civilization will experience explosive growth when all the energy we spend competing, is spent cooperating in service and unity in diversity instead.

JoeWalshe

Interesting Thread.
This subject interests me greatly especially as I live in a country where the economic collapse is accelerating everyday. Hard nosed business people and economics are admitting that they are helpless to find solutions.
The so called black economy is thriving as people do whatever it takes to survive and care for their families.
I have discussed the subject with many people here, in Ireland, and their seems to be a consensus that people need to work together in communities to survive.
While the depression is showing how corrupt many are it is also showing how good many people are. People are helping each other in local communities. Many are striving to be self sufficient in food and energy but I feel this is not the solution. People all over the world work together in small communities and by helping each other they all thrive. I can become relatively self sufficient myself but what about my disabled or old neighbours. Taking care of myself alone is not the answer.
People working together on different projects where everyone gets the benefit tend to be very happy. People sitting around waiting for a welfare cheque tend to be less happy.

Briefly, I see part of the solution, in Ireland anyway, is for people to trade with each other at a local level initially and then as these economies grow strong to trade with each other nationally and internationally. We need to work in our local communities in such a way that we are not merely exploiting each other and only concerned with maximising profit. Modern and evolving technology and new energy sources make the future very promising.

In Ireland people working in the black (informal) economy are not hindered by Government regulation or taxes. If they were to be completely legitimate they would not survive. Many have seen the corruption in our Government and banking system and do not want to be part of that society anymore. This is the challenging part for us Baha'is.

bwb

I may not have time for a complete reply, but I disagree with a few points made in this thread.

1) Baha'i teachings are opposed to extreme capitalism and extreme socialism both. They recommend moderation. They also advocate that economic prosperity depends on people's character, which depends on having a strong religious basis for society.

2) Baha'i support for the United Nations is somewhat qualified. We think that it is a defective institution which needs to be reformed. We also believe that no political reform will be enough to bring about world peace. Prejudices, such as religious prejudice, must be overcome through the influence of Baha'i teachings before peace can become a reality.

earthling155

JoeWalshe

Hi and thank you for your response.
I'm writing about and working on developing a business that teaches people how to create small private enterprises in our global information age economy. On the one hand the is the hard core homeless and the drug addicts and criminals. I want to supply information that will help them prosper in our society. On the other hand there is the working class people who are being laid of by the thousand all over the world.

I recommend that the totally destitute people use the public library and start developing their own home office on Google, using Google Sites and Google Docs, etc. I'm sure there are other similar options available. Just start producing something valuable. Entertain and educate us.

The working class people probably have a few more resources to work with and they have technical skills and a good work ethic. Building websites, buying, selling and trading stuff on eBay, learning how to be a day trader on the stock market, etc., are ways and means we can learn how to earn a living in our information age economy.

Buy sell and trade stuff at yard sales and have an eBay store so you can expand your market to the entire human race. You'll have to learn how to price your products and services appropriately. You want to be profitable, but you don't want to price yourself out of the market. The information age economy is a learning economy. You have to be willing and make the effort to learn and adapt to the market.

I'm sorry to here that Ireland is suffering. I hope we, the people of earth, can produce a more sustainable, and less cyclical economy. I believe that very small scale free enterprise is one of the most important ways we can do that. Like the farmers of the past, very independent, and yet interdependent with their local community and our global common wealth.

bwb

I agree. The United Nations is an institution created by human beings and is therefore not perfect. All I'm saying is that it is our world government, and we, the people earth, ought to be loyal citizens of our universal federation of nations. The Baha'i Writings, and Baha'u'llah in particular, mention sedition fairly often, and They always condemn it.

I've studied the philosophy of the UN and it is very similar to the Baha'i Faith. It is a good philosophy, and I say we should all be supporting and improving it, instead of complaining about its imperfections and teaching this hopeless ideology that the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

As far as capitalism goes. I believe that spirituality needs to be practical. We have to be able to afford to buy food and shelter. Capitalism has proven to be the most successful economic system in history. One time we looked it up in Ocean or some other Baha'i database. Abdu'l Baha is the only person who addressed it and He is always explaining the responsibility of the capitalists, not that it is evil or anything like that.

So, I agree that we need to teach all people to be spiritual, and they will influence our economic institutions in spiritual ways.

JoeWalshe

Not sure if you need to develop ideas and methods of empowering poor and dis-advantaged people to start their own small business enterprises. If you are as keen as you seem then I suggest you research what is already being done by NGOs and other groups to help the less well off.

Thank you for expressing concern for the Irish people. 'Tests are a healing medicine..." I think is the quote from Baha'u'llah and perhaps the people need some hardship to get them to evaluate their value system. we were becoming more and more materialistic and as we became wealthier we wasted more resources and time. As I see it the purpose of wealth should be to assist in our personal and communities spiritual advancement. Not to build huge houses and drive huge cars and spend leisure time watching banal TV while munching Fast food.

I do not see the current capitalist model surviving for much longer and to that end I would even question the value of having money. Communities that can help each other by trading food, clothing, fuel and services are in a better position to survive.

The subject matter is perhaps too deep to go into here and many Economic Web sites detail the inevitable collapse of the current economic system.

I am interested in ensuring that I can survive with my family and the immediate community as best we can while a new system is being formulated. Many people I know are already helping each other outside the mainstream economy. While this is not ideal I do not think the present system will collapse one day and a new system come into play the next day. I think alternative community based micro economic systems are emerging already as people have no choice but to strive to survive.

earthling155

JoeWalshe

As I was going through my own personal recovery I was struck by the fact that most of the problems are profitable, and the solutions are either non profit, or the medical industry is more interested in making money than solving the problems.

I figure that if we really want to solve the problems of poverty, homelessness, drug addiction and crime, then we will make it profitable to do so. I'm working on creating a private enterprise that is designed to help people get their own individual or family sized free enterprise started, profitable and sustainable.

The Bretton Woods banking system that was set up after World War 2 is bankrupt. You Know? The IMF and World Bank and all that. The consultations that are going on at the G8 and the G20 are saying that the people want a global system, not a few rich nations controlling the world economy. Thats whats coming up next. Its global, its clean and its sustainable.

And yes, of course, our material prosperity depends on our spiritual progress. All the material prosperity in the world is worthless, without the spiritual progress. Teaching the Faith is vital. We have to change the people, in order to change the institutions.

I feel like this is a good place to consult about social and economic development. I'm trying to teach the Baha'is that we are in the midst of the Lesser Peace. Its the greatest civilization that has ever existed on this planet. We should be thankful and optimistic, not the hopeless sedition that I hear so often.

Just get to work. Creating the Most Great Peace as quickly as possible. Humanity desperately needs both, material prosperity and spiritual progress.

Allah'u'Abha

earthling155

A School for Free Agent Entrepreneurs

There's a gorgeous old abandoned building, named Triumph High School, in my neighborhood. It sits on one block, with the building on half of the block and an empty lot on the other half.

So, I'm thinking I would love to put together a group of investors to buy the building and convert it into a school to teach people how to earn a living in their own home office, rather than getting a job in someone else's business.

The school would be designed to operate with consultation and collective decision making, rather than having a CEO, President or Superintendent type leader. It would supply most of its products and services online.

Develop a state of the art online university that specializes in teaching people how to earn a living as free agent entrepreneurs, rather than employees. Make it a profitable private enterprise, rather than an NGO, non-profit organization or a public school.

I'd focus on blue collar workers to start with. Then, when the school is operating profitably, start granting scholarships to the poor, homeless people, recovering addicts and criminal rehabilitation candidates.

The education would include a serious moral and spiritual component. We will not be graduating smart barbarians. The education will be first class, and will include technical and financial, social and economic development, and moral and spiritual development.

Of course, I have no resources, other than my ideas, to do any such thing. I just thought I'd share the idea. You never know, somone who does have resources might read it and get the idea to do something productive.

I would be happy to contribute in any way that I can. I do have first hand experience with addiction and recovery, extreme poverty and homelessness and being raised by a single teenage mom and the broken family, alcoholic parents and both physical violence and mental abuse.

I love my family, but it was not a very healthy family, and still suffers... The truth is, a lot of them are morally retarded barbarians, just like a large proportion of the American population.

It was the Mormon religion, and now the Baha'i Faith, that revealed a glimmer of hope and happiness in my consciousness. And I feel that moral and spiritual education is vital, an essential component of a complete and holistic education.

I also have a first class education that comes from libraries and books stores, rather than schools. I've identified that at least one of the reasons for my problems with schools, is the elite and condescending culture they all seem to promulgate.

I'm fairly confident that a lot of the poor and homeless people have a similar attitude of contempt for the educational establishment and the acedemic elite. The condescending attitude of superiority is an integral attribute of enlightenment philosophy and its insulting to the majority of people.

I'm working on improving my own attitude and replacing my attitude of contempt toward any attitude of superiority or inferiority, with an attitude of compassion, unity in diversity and consultation with all people of all nations, races and religion.

Practice freedom, equality and justice for all people everywhere.

Peace and prosperity be with you all.

whine of astonsihment

Sounds interesting Earthling. How are you earning your living at present?

earthling155

I drive a dump truck. However, I've recently been laid off for the season. I'm building a cluster of websites that haven't made any income yet, but I intend to monetize during the next month or so. Holistic Home Office is my online store. It is still in a fairly primitive stage of development.

Its not so much of a been there done that story, as it is a doing this now story. Its a work in progress.