Sheppy

Hi! I am new on this forum and on the knowledge of the Bahá'í Faith. This is my first topic.

I want to know if having sex before marriage ( I mean correct sex with partner you are in love with ) is bad in Bahá'í Faith.

Here is the thing. I am thinking of maybe become a Bahai. I am born a Christian Protestant with bearly any religious teachings. I already had sex in my life, with girlfriends. Therefore, I have commited premarital sex right? And can't go back in time and change things!

I was also thinking that, if in Bahai Faith, premarital sex is forbidden, marriage for a man and woman can be some sort of excuse or action so they can have sex ( maybe without knowing it or pretending), which could be pretty bad.
Shouldnt a man and a woman in love know themself entirely before getting married?


I really need some answers to those questions...
Thank you.

Yeshua

Hey Sheppy

You know it is really strange you ask this because I am 18 years old and Catholic and I have been struggling lately with living up to my own Church's stance on pre-marital sex....just today I was thinking about it and the word 'porneia' in the Bible which was once usally translated as 'fornication' but which is now usually translated as 'sexual immorality'...I was thinking about and reading the OT book the Song of Songs, with all its wonderful sexual imagery - and I realized, the two lovers aren't married! Theirs is a secret, premarital relationship...and its in the Bible! I may have interpreted it wrongly though...and I'm maybe just being hopeful...

So I would be really interested to hear the Baha'i stance on this...sadly tho I'm afraid that the Baha'i stance probably echoes the Jewish and Christian one. Namely: Pre-marital sex is a big no-no. We all have to deal with our fleshly desires...God has an ideal and we have to strive as best as possible to live up to it. His ideal, from the beginning, was that one man and one woman should come together and be one 'flesh'....thats marriage.

Its hard to avoid sexual desire...I know, trust me....

As for your past pre-marital sex, who cares? If it is banned in the Baha'i Faith upon becoming a Baha'i you are a new person...you can't be blamed if you never thought pre-marital sex was wrong when you were a non-believer. Just don't do it again!

(And there's the pot calling the kettle black I'm a hypocrite...)

Lunitik

Yes, premarital sex is shunned in the Kitab-i-Aqdas - the book of Baha'i laws.

I think this is more to do with the ramifications of this. Knowing your partner has been with others can cause a level of jealousy and mistrust - I know from personal experience, for instance, that it has caused me to question my performance compared to her prior partners. This is unhealthy in a meaningful relationship, but of course, you cannot turn back the hands of time and undo these things. I think it is important, therefor, to not allow this history to effect future relationships that might lead to marriage. I think the most important thing is to move forward with different goals when engaging in seeking a new relationship. Focus on getting to know her, and loving her, rather than wanting anything physical. We are not perfect, so perhaps you will give into the desires of the flesh in the future, but if you're trying your best to set positive foundations for all relationships, I think it is difficult to hold it against you.

Also, I think it is important to keep in mind the ramifications for any child you might have. A positive foundation raises a much healthier foundation for any children. In todays world, most criminals are from single households, it really has so many negative ramifications if you bring a child into a non-committed relationship. The Baha'i scriptures set forth the symbolical image of a bird, with man and women each being one of the birds wings... if one wing isn't functional, the bird cannot fly. While not being directly applied to this situation, I think it fits. Without the child having both wings, it cannot fly to its destined heights. It is always off-kilter and will find it difficult to find balance in its life.

Essence of GOD

sex is a meaningless act if not for giving birth.
non-reproductive sex is only good for its pleasure.
compared to spiritual pleasure, the pleasure arrived from sex is nothingness.
so it is only logical to have sex with the one you want to raise a child with, aka your wife or husband.
thats my view on it, im also interested to see Bahia view

Sheppy

I know exactly what you are talking about when you say that ( what is bolded.

But what does the Faith say about having a girlfriend when you are 20 years old? (thats my age, and I am a man, just so you know )

Lunitik

This is specifically what the Aqdas says on this specific subject.

At least, this is found within the discussion of marriage, discussing lust. I have given you a link to a site that contains the entire text of the Aqdas if you wish to read further.

I would also recommend Abdu'l Baha's Some Answered Questions as I believe it touches on the subject more specifically.



As for questions about age, it is stated that it is better to seek a partner as young as possible, a Baha'i comes of age at 15, however of course we must also obey our countries laws. Again, your motivations should be marriage, though, not physicality.

Sheppy

So you think having sex for pleasure of both partners are okay and encouraged in marriage. Sex isnt only for creation of child then. Am I correct?

Lunitik

The Kitab-i-Aqdas actually supports a healthy sexual relationship within the confines of marriage, so yes. Sex also creates a bond between both parties, although this becomes weaker if you've had multiple partners, so I think it is important outside simple goals of reproduction.

Lunitik

I can't recall where I read that, and can't find it currently... anyone able to help me out?

Sheppy

So it is clear that sexual relations should ONLY be practised in marriage. A young man and woman that are together in love, can not have sex. Is this the real translation? Or do Baha'u'llah means: sex only in a serious couple in love. I would like to know the real meaning of "marriage", to be sure.

Yeshua

Hey Shep

Well I personally don't think it is only for pro-creation but again I don't know what the Baha'i Faith says...

Obviously sex is the means of reproduction and you should not close yourself off from producing life and 'sowing your seed' so to speak God did say, 'Multiply and be fruitful'. However sex is also a spiritual calling I think. In the sexual act man and woman become one, the division between the sexes is healed, they are completely equal...Sex is for me as a much a means to growing in ove with your partner (deepening your relationship) and enjoying the pleasure (which is a gift from God) as it is a means to reproduction...

Here are a few passages from the Song of Songs in the Bible. I ask you, are these two young lovers thinking about reproduction and offspring?

1: 2
Kiss me, make me drunk with your kisses!
Your sweet loving
is better than wine

(Not here anyway...)

Oh what about here....

1: 3
You are fragrant,
you are myrrh and aloes.
All the young women want you.

1: 4
Take me by the hand, let us run together!

My lover, my king, has brought me into his chambers.
We will laugh, you and I, and count each kiss,
better than wine.

Every one of them wants you.

(Nope...)

Maybe here...

1: 13 - 14
All night between my breasts
my love is a cluster of myrrh,
a sheaf of henna blossoms
in the vineyards of Ein Gedi.

(Definetly not...)

Maybe - here then?

2: 3
And my beloved among the young men
is a branching apricot tree in the wood.
In that shade I have often lingered,
tasting the fruit.

(...I doubt she's thinking about kids when she's 'tasting his fruit' and I'll let you make 2 + 2 = 4 regarding what his 'fruit' is....)

7:9 -10 :

And oh, may your breasts be like clusters
of grapes on a vine, the scent
of your breath like apricots,
your mouth good wine-

That pleases my lover, rousing him
even from sleep.


OK you get the pick...Sex is not only for reproduction, even the Bible says its also for pleasure and the joys of a loving, stable relationship!

The Book of Proverbs says of one's wife: "She is a loving deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts satisfy you at all times. May you always be captivated by her love."

For some reason I like the idea behind that one....Ahem....

Lunitik

Yes, they are clear that sex outside of marriage is not permitted. I simply wish to echo that within the Baha'i Faith, there would be no serious ramifications should you give into cravings of any sort. I don't believe it is beneficial to instill guilt in believers, although there is a stated fine for adultery.

Lunitik

I think you are taking this quote out of context... I think it means more to spread the cause and live comfortably.

I certainly agree with this, however I have spoken of the ramifications of such actions already - not just from a Baha'i perspective, but from very real examples.

For what its worth, nothing in the subsequent quotes is disallowed in Baha'i scriptures. Kissing, for example, is explicitly permitted. It is only taught that you should be careful as to not grow your desires to the point that you might act on them outside of marriage.

Lunitik

Entirely aside from the scriptures: it is important to maintain chemistry with the object of your desire, kissing, for example ensures it is known this isn't a simple friendship. How can you hope to marry someone when the only foundations of the relationship is friendship? You simply must express desires beyond that else you'll never find a partner.

It is a fine line, granted, because such expression can easily lead to action.

Sheppy

Ok. Now it is clear in my head about premarital sex in Bahai Faith.

Thank you for helping me so much and answering so well to my questions!

Now that I know that, I want to know about masturbation use for a single man or woman, in Bahai Faith!

You guys must think I'm some sort of nympho or so Which I dont think I am! lol. I just need more infos on the subject, because sex is very important in life, and I want to know how to live it.

Sheppy

Kissing is allowed in a non-married couple, as long it doesnt lead to sexual acts. Is my understanding correct?

Lunitik

There is no mention of this directly in the scriptures, however in Some Answered Questions, the notion that sexual desire should only be acted on within marriage is extended to masturbation.

We are instructed to gain control over all desires of the flesh, but again, we are not perfect creations, we all struggle with the same things. I think personally that it is far less harmful than engaging in meaningless sex with another person.

Lunitik

Yes. Others may disagree, but this is my understanding.

Lunitik

I would personally recommend reading "Some Answered Questions" and drawing your own conclusions.

You should not be taking anyones statements as fact, only that they are our interpretations. Again, here, if you browse Authoritative Baha'i -> Abdu'l Baha -> Some Answered Questions you can see a wide variety of topics discussed.

Most of your current questions are discussed.

Sheppy

Okay. But science said that masturbating like 5 times a week ( which I do not) reduces having a prostate cancer from 30% or so. And Baha'u'llah said we should be in union with science ^^

Lunitik

Such justifications are for yourself to sort through. Try meditating on the subject, listen to what thoughts you might have that don't seem to stem from yourself - these are understood to be God talking to us. I would recommend also considering whether the pros outweigh the cons. For me, expression of desire has a negative effect on my objectivity of women. I am extremely weak currently, however.

Provided you accept Baha'u'llah, and are striving as best you can for closeness to God, I think it is difficult to hold it against you. We are taught to be compassionate to such weaknesses, not aggressive like many Muslim communities. Spiritual growth should be a personal venture, all we can offer is our personal understanding.

Yeshua

LOL

I don't think your a Nympho...we are all sexual beings, its part of our nature Properly and morally used sex is healthy.

InvestigateTruth

Generally no one is a perfect Baha'i, having said that, regarding kissing and other things, I found these:


"What Bahá’u’lláh means by chastity certainly does not include the kissing that goes on in
modern society. It is detrimental to the morals of young people, and often leads them to go too far, or arouses appetites which they cannot perhaps at the time satisfy legitimately through marriage, and the suppression of which is a strain on them. The Bahá’í standard is very high, more particularly when compared with the thoroughly rotten morals of the present world. But this standard of ours will produce healthier, happier,
nobler people, and induce stabler marriages."
(On behalf of Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 360)

"…[T]he whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of presentday society.
Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the
Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Bahá’u’lláh, in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets ‘Abdu’l-Bahá encourages us to keep our “secret thoughts pure”. Of course many wayward thoughts come involuntarily to the mind and these are merely a result of weakness and are not blameworthy unless they become fixed or even worse, are expressed in improper acts. (Universal House of Justice: Lights of Guidance, p. 364)

Lunitik

The first quote here is exactly what I was referring to, however I could not find it earlier. Thank you very much for sharing both!

Lunitik

Here is another quote on the subject from Lights of Guidance:

And another on the topic of over-emphasizing this law:

arthra

Sheppy seems to be focused on a few issues..but for Baha'is as has been stated above sex prior to marriage is forbidden.

It might be important here to indicate what is marriage for Baha'is so you can understand what is the focus in preparation for a Baha'i marriage:

Marriage, among the mass of the people, is a physical bond, and this union can only be temporary, since it is foredoomed to a physical separation at the close.

Among the people of Baha, however, marriage must be a union of the body and of the spirit as well, for here both husband and wife are aglow with the same wine, both are enamoured of the same matchless Face, both live and move through the same spirit, both are illumined by the same glory. This connection between them is a spiritual one, hence it is a bond that will abide forever. Likewise do they enjoy strong and lasting ties in the physical world as well, for if the marriage is based both on the spirit and the body, that union is a true one, hence it will endure. If, however, the bond is physical and nothing more, it is sure to be only temporary, and must inexorably end in separation.

When, therefore, the people of Baha undertake to marry, the union must be a true relationship, a spiritual coming together as well as a physical one, so that throughout every phase of life, and in all the worlds of God, their union will endure; for this real oneness is a gleaming out of the love of God.

"Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá" (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), sec. 84, pp. 117-18

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 441)

and the following:

Bahá'í marriage is the commitment of the two parties one to the other, and their mutual attachment of mind and heart. Each must, however, exercise the utmost care to become thoroughly acquainted with the character of the other, that the binding covenant between them may be a tie that will endure forever. Their purpose must be this: to become loving companions and comrades and at one and eternity ....

The true marriage of Bahá'ís is this, united both physically and spiritually, that they may ever improve the spiritual life of each other, and may enjoy everlasting unity throughout all the worlds of God. This is Bahá'í marriage.

("Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá", sec. 86, p. 11)

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 441)

Sheppy

You can see if the woman is a virgin, but you can't see if the man is one or not.

BruceDLimber

Not really, because the hymen frequently breaks when teenage women engage in various sorts of athletics. Often, there is thus no reliable physical evidence.

whine of astonsihment

The Baha'i emphasis is most definitely on chastity and not virginity.

There is a beautiful purity about virginity (in both men and women) that has been increasingly ridiculed, corrupted, and perverted by many of our liberalized western societal values over the past half century. The damage it's already done to both sexes and the family unit is evident and quite incalculable I think.

Sadly, we in the West now live in a society where the term 'friends with benefits' has been gradually becoming an acceptable norm in far too many of our young people and the idea of chastity before and outside of marriage has become almost alien and laughable. I used to think I was a fairly liberated woman but between the whole 'friends with benefits' business and Ashley Madison ads on TV, billboards, etc., it gives me a really sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I feel very sorry for young people today trying to find and negotiate a meaningful relationship that can grow and develop into a loving, stable marriage.

Sheppy

What do you mean?

LarryK32

I'm not going to lie. I'm 16 year old male so I do think about... that stuff.

But I agree with Whine. I am honestly disgusted by 'casual sex' and am nauseated quite easily by the thought of it. It's actually the ONLY thing that I am too offended about to talk about in depth, along with infidelity. Mostly because of my paranoia that I will be cheated on.

As you guys know from an earlier thread, that the only thing I have substantial trouble with is fantacizing about finding love. And because of that I plan on having sex with one person my entire life. But I'm terrifed I'll be cheated on.

Anything you wouldn't do in front of your significant other is cheating.

whine of astonsihment

Don't get me wrong - virginity is very highly esteemed and valued. However, in many societies, particularly in the East, loss of virginity in females can label them as 'damaged goods', often resulting in annulments, serious physical abuse and even death to the woman, whereas the men are not at risk of such consequences.

If you read what Baha'u'llah has stated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas regarding marriage dowries, grounds for annulment, virginity, divorce, etc., you can see that he seeks to correct many past injustices with respect to marriage and women.

But essentially what I'm trying to say is that, while virginity is a very precious and beautiful attribute, the commitment to chastity outside of marriage is the spiritual standard that Baha'is are expected to uphold and maintain an is the real basis for a successful marriage, not virginity.

Sheppy

Ok! =)



Larry, I have the same fear than you. ( PS: i am a 20 years old male )

LarryK32

My definition of cheating is much stronger than other peoples', though. Even light flirting is cheating.

ANYTHING you wouldn't do in front of your significant other is CHEATING.

LordOfGoblins

If your faith is so weak that you need pre-marital sex or not be a Bahai then this isnt the religion for you.
Ponder deeply. Is life about sex or is it about spiritual growth. What is your purpose here in these fleeting days? To be drunk with the wines of the earth or the imortal wines of the spirit.
God will test and test and cut off the weak and make the weak to be removed from the body of true believers and the unworthy to be left lifeless. The dead shall be raised the weak made strong and the strong made weak.
Do you chase fleeting pleasures for the eternal reunion?
If so this isnt the religion for you.
Renounce all. RENOUNCE ALL save God your beloved then hasten therunto. Cast your life down in the path of service in the path of his good pleasure like Abdul'Baha did and be not of those who are petty and weak-minded.
Ok enough for now im done.

Susanne Alexander

Sorry for weighing in so late in the discussion!

For me, one of the primary keys in understanding and accepting no sex before marriage is the perspective that sex within marriage has spiritual components that cannot exist outside of this divine institution. The Baha'i teachings are clear that marriage has been created in part as a place for sex to happen. This makes sex within marriage divinely blessed. All of the spiritual qualities of gentleness, cooperation, flexibility, enthusiasm, joyfulness, etc. etc. apply to making love. Sexual intimacy is intended to increase the unity beween a married couple and bond them more closely together.

It's also important to look at chastity as different from abstinence. It is a spiritual quality of character that includes filling your life with activities that are positive so that thoughts of sex are less dominant. It means avoiding activities that stimulate sexual thoughts. Chastity makes it possible for men and women to be friends without sex.

Some marriage experts are now beginning to say things like how difficult it is to know the character of a partner when sex enters the picture. Then instead of focusing on thoroughly knowing the character of a partner as the Baha'i Writings say to do, it can be easy to say - well the person must be good because I'm having sex with them. The other thing that can apparently occur is that the maturing of the relationship can be disrupted by sexual intimacy. So, if the goal is a life partner within a happy marriage, having sex can interfere with the effectiveness of the process.

Susanne Alexander
www.bahaimarriage.net; Baha'i Faith Relationships and Marriage Dating Singles

Nolan

I find that I agree with nearly all Baha'i beliefs, with the exception of a few things, the issue of lust included. I think that, like many things, the issue is far too complex and diverse to be put into such linear descriptions of good or bad. Pre-marital sex is too broad a term to be generalized as "bad." If one goes around having sex with many partners, with no emotional connections, or even has sex with a committed partner before loving them, that is immoral in my eyes. But if a "girlfriend and boyfriend" have been together for a significant amount of time and are in love, I don't think that it is immoral for them to have sex prior to marriage, even if marriage is not the guaranteed outcome of the relationship. If they feel a strong emotional connection and do not let intercourse damage the relationship, I think it's acceptable to indulge in the natural pleasure of having sex, just as it's acceptable to enjoy the natural pleasure of smelling a flower. It's circumstantial. Perhaps the reason marriage is considered the only acceptable place to have sex is because the existence of the state of marriage between two people assures that sex is being had for romantic and physical reasons, not just the latter. But I believe that two souls in love making love is a beautiful thing, regardless of how legally and religiously official their marriage is. Bahá’u’lláh said that the various messengers of God described his will based on the societal values and capacities of the time. He brought his word first to 19th Century Persia. Thus, it would seem to me that the strict standard of maintaining one's virginity until marriage was just a law that fit contemporary standards. How God judges us is too complex for us to comprehend, as many guidelines as we make. In my opinion, the same goes for how he judges the morality of sexual intercourse. So, let your decision be a spiritual one from your spirit, not one that is made to obey a book. Though the doctrine and texts of the Baha'i faith are, I believe, very likely the word of God (I'm still not officially Baha'i, I'm researching and getting a feel for it for now,) I think that they needn't be believed word for word when it comes to things open for debate, such as sexuality, homosexuality, alcohol, etc.

Nolan

So, I am likely going to officially begin my spiritual life following the Baha'i Faith, but don't think that premarital sex, masturbation, homosexuality or any of those things are inherently wrong. I think that God judges a person by much deeper spiritual natures than such things, and that if they do not become immoral or destructive, such things are acceptable. I do not feel as though they distance a person from God when kept in this acceptable state.

aidan

As Baha/is we cannot chose what we wish to believe or not.The person choses to follow Baha'i beliefs or not to.There is no gray here

cire perdue

Baha'u'llah did not teach only to the 19th Century, and there are tons of references to this, and one who was aware of enough of the teaching on the Station of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Revelation would not make a statement that the teahings could or do apply only to the 19th Century. They are here until about 2944 at least.

We are talking about a religion that is to encompass the world, because GOD revealed it through Baha'u'llah, and it is a standard of behavior not for the purpose of obeying rules to please God, to count coup with God, but for the benefit and happiness of mankind. All this decadence and materialism is not making people happy, they are rioting in lots of places.

If we were to go by your guidelines, then there would be those who are careful as you sound you are, and then there are those who would exceed your wildest expectations and think they are going by those guidelines, "Oh, uhhh, I was in love everytime, all 85 women, it just did not last."

Your approach does not take societal affects into account. It is not to inconvenience you, it is to make a healthier society and more spiritual civilization and that does not include having an "acceptable" gay lifestyle which ranges from modesty to extreme promiscuity of which no one who has not been been exposed should speak on. That is beyond the scope of this thread, but it is not healthy emotionally or spiritually.

To be a Baha'i means to committ to these beliefs whether you understand them or not. Sexual behavior is actually a law. You can have your rights removed if you live with someone openly and are known as a Baha'i. To be a Baha'i means you accept the laws, you don't have to like them or understand them, but as a Baha'i by praying, reading, attending Ruhi Courses, and Deepenings you can grow in understanding and acceptance become easier. Your life can have more meaning and it will be a form of dedication to live a Baha'i life.

This Faith has the depths of early Christianity that will not be weakened by time and societal norms and desires. Just as Christianity changed Rome over several hundred years, so shall this Faith change the world. If you like the social teachings that is great, but the R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S teachings and values are the very core. No one is expected to know all and accept all, one is given a chance to grow and progress, but it is not at all wise to come into it and pick and choose what you want to believe and practice. I hope you will look into more. Baha'is believe that God sent this very specifically at this time, so we are serious about it. I cannot think of anything else except AA where ordinary people take something as seriously as we do.