Clex19

Some people think that because the Baha'i Faith only allows marriage to be between a woman and a man the Faith discriminates against homosexuals. They notice that the Baha'i Faith is big on not having prejudices of any kind. They think that denying homosexuals the option to marry someone of the same sex is discriminating against them. Therefore, they believe that the Baha'i Faith is hypocritical and immoral. Obviously, that's not true.

I need assistance explaining to someone, who has the belief that the Baha'i Faith discriminates against homosexuals, that the Faith does not discriminate in any way, particularly in this way. Any thoughts/ideas/insights?

InvestigateTruth

With regards to homosexuality, on one hand, the Baha'i Faith teaches that, for a person who has homosexual feelings, is better (in terms of spiritual and physical health) not express the sexual feelings. But instead by praying and if possible seeking medical help, overcome and control it. Perhaps, this would also have a better effect on the health of society as well.
On the other hand, in the Most Holy Book, there is no punishment prescribed for an act of homosexuality.
Thus, the Baha'i Faith only provides guidance, to safeguard people from those things that will stop them from spiritual progress, but does not take rights from anybody.

Nuck81

This is Wikipedia, but from what I've read so far. It is fairly accurate.

Homosexuality and the Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clex19

Thanks for the thoughts! However...

@InvestigateTruth A non-Baha'i could argue that yes, the Faith doesn't take away rights because the right wasn't there to begin with. Or it could be argued that homosexuals still don't have the same rights that heterosexuals do to marry someone in accordance with (what they think to simply be) personal preference (when in reality it is a trial to be overcome).

Is marriage in the Baha'i Faith considered more of a right or a privilege?

InvestigateTruth

Baha'i Faith teaches that human essentially is a spiritual reality and that this temporary life with whatever privilege may have, is not as worthy to loose the main purpose of human, which is spiritual progress.

Thus, God, in this life test everybody constantly. Not that God by testing needs to know how His creatures do, as He is the All-knowing and does not need to know, but as Baha'u'llah says in the Book of Iqan that people "may develop and be delivered from the prison-cage of self and desire"
Thus, at the time of tests and difficulties, if we resist, and walk in the ways of God, we passed that test, and have become free from the bondage, and our spirit would have acquired those virtues. But if we fail the test, and act the opposite of the ways of God, that is a spiritual degradation, for "being" and "doing" would be the same.

Thus, although the homosexuals have a difficult condition to overcome, but many other people may have many other difficulties and tests that homosexuals may not have. Everyone would have his own tests.

cire perdue

I am a Baha'i, became one though gay. I am in recovery from being gay. The homosexual lifestyle is not healthy, let me tell you!!!! Baha'is have values that are considered conservative and NOT cool, that don't allow heterosexuals to have sex outside of marriage. People continue to perceive me as gay. I have gotten no rejection or prejudice from Baha'is. I saw a non gay person withdraw over this. Don't stress if you cannot convince someone. It is probaby an excuse. Remember God chooses Baha'is also, and a person may have to be called several times to become a Baha'i. Our values are not ritual or mere superstition. Our values are practices which will make us the happiest of beings. We are not keeping score on the things we do according to rules just to please God, we are living the life that has the best chance of true happiness. Who in heck around here is willing to do that except Baha'is. We are going against the flow of the material crowd.

People find superficial reasons all the time to reject the Faith. Upon first hearing about it, I was not ready to consider anything about "God", especially since I thought being gay was my answer. If one is not willing to look deeper into this Faith, then that person has a great deal to learn about reality. I had more to learn and the Faith called again. After what I had experienced in the homosexual lifestyle and watching others, I wanted a better world, so I chose the Faith. People protecting the "rights" of homosexuals may actually be protecting their own desire not to adhere to strong values.

Additionally no one with any real knowledge of the homosexual lifestyle could envision a chaste life that results in a monogamous marriage. There will have been a history of "serial monogamy" at best. Someone against the Faith for not accepting a homosexual lifestyle must be in favor of promiscuity. Someday it will be abundantly clear that it is faulty development of personality that is the common result of homosexuality with variations for people at risk and exposure.

Baha'is are not prejudice against anyone, only inappropriate sexual activity be it heterosexual or homosexual. I have always been loved by my fellow Baha'is.

Clex19

Again, thank you very much for your posts, friends!

I have settled to trying to help this person understand that whether Bahá'í marriages are disciminating or not depends upon one's beliefs and point of view. What I mean is that since he does not believe that different-sex marriages are best for spiritual health, like Baha'is believe, he sees no good reason for the restriction of Baha'i marriages to a man and woman only. From his point of view, I can see how his ideas make sense because he does not share the same beliefs about spirituality that we do. From a Baha'i perspective, though, it makes perfect sense why Baha'i marriage is not discriminating.

Right now I'm reminded of a particular quote from the Kitab-i-Iqan: "[T]rue life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit."

Feel free to share more thoughts/ideas!

InvestigateTruth

Generally the Baha'i Faith is not against sexuality. But it is clear and evident, that for everything there are laws that defines the proper way of doing that. Can we just eat everything we want, or are we supposed to eat healthy and right? Can we just drive a car however we like, or are we supposed to follow the law to protect ourselves and others? Therefore, it is clear that, there is a consequence.
Thus those laws, in the Book of Messengers come to define the proper ways. The ways of God. Everything is supposed to be done within certain limits. As to what way, is not harmful and what way is correct, the Baha'i belief is that, it is set by God with His perfect wisdom, though we may not understand the wisdom of some of His laws, but in God do we trust. He is the maker of the spirit, He knows what's best for it.

arthra

Well I think in a sense the argument that marriage is a "right" are basing their assumption maybe on laws in a secular society.. maybe the paradigm of republican democracy.. A secular society is not founded on a religious premise but on say generally agreed standards in a given society... certain medical and "legal" standards are also part of that... Laws are most often in place so that marriage is not between certain degrees of relationship as in say a parent and child.. or between a brother and sister .. or between one already "married" and another spouse.. Are we to argue that certain people's "rights" are being ignored who wish to marry their own siblings or someone else of a close relation?

Marriage in the Baha'i context is based on the provisions of the Aqdas.. The equality of men and women as a principle is essential as each must first have approval of the other and of course there must be approval from the living parents of the prospective spouses.. so there are different "rights" involved for each prospective spouse and each living parent for there to be a Baha'i marriage..

In traditional societies the marriages were arranged well ahead of time when they were children and before they had anything like an independent developed personality.. The Baha'i Faith confers on the prospective spouses after the "age of maturity" the "right" to select on their own a prospective spouse...

You also as above have the "right" of the living parents to freely approve the marriage of their children.. this "right" is most often ignored in general society as eloping and so on is not discouraged..

Today general society (as to law) does not focus on sexual relations so much except say between a child and an adult.. Adults are generally free to have sexual relations with anyone where they are not forced and are maybe discrete.. although you'll note there are still social consequences to these acts even though not legally sanctioned.

So there is what you would call a "public morality"..

I think Baha'i values and institutions such as marriage will in the future come into their own but they are for the most ignored today.. In Iran of course Baha'i marriage is not recognized at all.. and Baha'is are considered "immoral" and their children removed and placed in so called accepted families... I believe this is still the case so whose rights are being trampled on in Iran?

armin

To me that is approaching the faith from the wrong perspective. One can't approach a religion with pre-conceptions. It's a bit hard for me to word what I feel. As an analogy, I may say that I'm inclined to have sexual activity out of wedlock. This is specially an inclination that we all have, were born with. What is the answer to that? Is the Baha'i faith discriminating against me? Faith should be approached with complete openness. One can't say, I'm a member of this group and that group and have these wants/needs/inclinations and then allege a certain, or all, religion is discriminatory towards him/her. In a sense religion discriminates against everyone in different ways. But then again that's approaching it wrong.

Just wanted to share what I think and I'm not sure that was very helpful in response to the person who alleges discrimination.

Lari

And, deriving from that, alcoholism is worse than homosexuality. That should give people the correct perspective on this question. If a Baha'i says someone's "gay", he should say to everyone he's an "alcoholic".

Nowadays our culture allows everything. This culture is not about the Baha'i faith, and if one wants to follow these norms, he is free to do so, but he has to accept the fact that it is different from the Baha'i faith.

My grandfather was homosexual, and kept it as secret from the society until later life. The fact that people have condemned it (and still do) so roughly, is not for this time and day. And I'm not talking about any kind of Hollywood kiss me, everything's fine type acceptance, but actual understanding and confrontation of this big misguided question.

Sen McGlinn

The phrase "Bahá'í marriage is union of a man and a woman" appears to have blown over the fence from Christian discourse.

The earliest Bahai use I know if is in a statement of the Bahai International Community in 1994, which says that "Marriage is a living social entity that comes into being as a result of the conscious, deliberate union of a woman and man." This is in the context of violence in the family; I doubt it was originally intended restrictively, as if marriage can only be between a man and a woman. The BIC statement goes on to say:
"As such, marriage is not only a legal, religious, and social entity but also a living, growing institution subject to the laws and requirements of all living organisms."
This is just what we are witnessing today: the evolution of concepts and laws in the institution of marriage.

However the stipulation that marriage is only between a man and a woman has been part of Christian discourse far longer, and (at least recently) in the context of excluding the possibility of same-sex marriages.

In Catholic teaching marriage is "a covenantal relationship between a man and a woman," and google searches on :

"between a man and a woman" marriage covenant OR contract

before 1/1/1995 produce almost exclusively Catholic documents. As the possibility of state-recognized same-sex marriages has been debated, the explicit restriction of marriage to "between a man and a woman" has passed from the doctrinal sphere to the polemical. Protestant leaders have picked up on the language, and various states have amended laws to make what was previously an assumption explicit, even as a few have moved in the opposite direction.

arthra

The marriage of the Bahais means that both man and woman must become spiritually and physically united, so that they may have eternal unity throughout all the divine worlds and improve the spiritual life of each other. This is Bahai matrimony.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 325)